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Old 08-04-2006, 09:11 AM   #1
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Neither the brave nor bold...

"Neither the brave nor bold will write us the story, so we won't give pause until the blood is flowing."
-Vicarious


"Overwhelmed, as one would be placed in my position. Such a heavy burden now to be the one born to bear and read you all the details of our ending, TO WRITE THEM DOWN for all of you to see. But I forgot my pen... typical."
-Rosetta Stoned


I'ved considered that some of the songs in this album (if not all of them directly or indirectly) work together in collectively characterizing a certain type of anonymous individual. If nothing else, I'd at least argue that "Vicarious" and "Rosetta Stoned" allude to one another.


Before I elaborate, however, would anybody like to explain the significance of the above "Vicarious" quote I've included in this post? According to my understanding, this quote single-handedly changes "Vicarious" from being a song which merely whines about our imperfect human nature to being a song with a more profound message that accuses some mysterious person of being responsible for the continuance of our imperfect human nature. If he would be bold or brave enough to "write us the story" (as is mentioned also is Rosetta Stoned), we would assumedly somehow cease thriving off of tragedy. The entire song I believe actually hinges off of this one quote, n'est pas?


-Godin
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Old 08-06-2006, 05:43 PM   #2
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Re: Neither the brave nor bold...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godin
Before I elaborate, however, would anybody like to explain the significance of the above "Vicarious" quote I've included in this post?


-Godin
Ummm, nobody seems to to have the answer to your riddle, so why don't you just go ahead and elaborate?
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Old 08-07-2006, 11:20 AM   #3
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Re: Neither the brave nor bold...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godin
"Neither the brave nor bold will write us the story, so we won't give pause until the blood is flowing."
-Vicarious


"Overwhelmed, as one would be placed in my position. Such a heavy burden now to be the one born to bear and read you all the details of our ending, TO WRITE THEM DOWN for all of you to see. But I forgot my pen... typical."
-Rosetta Stoned


I'ved considered that some of the songs in this album (if not all of them directly or indirectly) work together in collectively characterizing a certain type of anonymous individual. If nothing else, I'd at least argue that "Vicarious" and "Rosetta Stoned" allude to one another.


...this quote single-handedly changes "Vicarious" from being a song which merely whines about our imperfect human nature to being a song with a more profound message that accuses some mysterious person of being responsible for the continuance of our imperfect human nature. If he would be bold or brave enough to "write us the story" (as is mentioned also is Rosetta Stoned), we would assumedly somehow cease thriving off of tragedy. The entire song I believe actually hinges off of this one quote, n'est pas?

Nobody has ANYTHING to say, huh? I was hoping to get a contrast of views from SOMEBODY before I commented. :-\


First, a quote from Maynard, describing how the album is to be understood as if watching a single film:

"These are not commercials, they are not three-minute jingles, they're not as easy to get into. This is more like presenting a film."
-MJK


To be as concise as possible (since I believe a lengthy book of criticism could be written on this whole album), I believe how song numbers 3, 4, and 11 sinc up audio-wise is, among other things, meant to suggest that at least some of the songs, if not all of them, are meant to be "synced up" intellectually. Meaning, you are supposed to consider the meaning of each song as being consistent and even building upon the meaning of all the other songs on the album. You're supposed to stack the meanings of the songs on top of one another, and only then can you grasp the whole picture of what "10,000 Days" is about.

For instance, the "neither the brave nor bold will write us the story" line makes no sense when you consider this lyric merely in the context of the song "Vicarous" alone. When you realize that the "write us the story" notion is ALSO introduced in "Rosetta Stoned" with the "details of our ending... to WRITE THEM DOWN for all the world to see" line, one can begin to induce a sort of connection at least between these two songs.

Maynard characterizes an individual in "Rosetta Stoned" who is repeatedly and unsuccessfully trying to write some profound message "for all the world to see"... no doubt of which is supposed to change the world in significant ways -otherwise, the whole world would not need to see it. In "Vicarous", Maynard implies that "neither the brave nor bold will write us the story, so [therefore] we won't" cease engaging in our imperfect nature until he succeeds. The connection between the songs is that if the character in "Rosetta Stoned" were to successfully express his profound world-changing message in writing, people would cease with their imperfect nature of living off of tragedy. Well, that is the LITERAL message between the two songs. Translation: "If you (the anonymous listener) would finally succeed in completing your grand ambitions, you would no longer be consumed in self-pity, in the tragic circumstances of failure in your own life."


Think about it for a while... How would the successful depiction of this supposedly profound message lead to the ending of our, or at least one's, imperfect nature? Well, on the level of mass-civilizational change I can't imagine such a change actually being affected. But, on the individual level it makes sense because success tends to heal all wounds, not for the world perhaps, but at least for the individual who was finally achieved that success, who has HIMSELF been bent on self-pity while he's been repeatedly trying to focus his thoughts to compose this message. Once one succeeds, they will no longer feed off of their own self-pity. They will no longer be "drawn on [their own] grave and ground" (vicarious).

This experience of trying to compose some profound message but repeatedly failing to do so (and therefore meanwhile dwelling in a resigned state while comforting yourself with self-pity) is "typical" for those with grand literary ambitions... this repeated failure especially occurs when it is drugs (hallucinogens) that inspire the "transmittal" of the profound message within the writer. Since most of us are not usually able to engage in the productive activity of writing while influenced by the consciousness raising affects of hallucinogens, we "forget our pen" during the hallucinogenic high. Afterwards, once the drug wears off so does the heightened consciousness which gave us sight of the profound message that we feel compelled to write about. Trying to use this avenue to achieve profound thoughts to write about, we "don't know, won't know" what the profound message was after we come down from the high. To write the story, we need to go another route.

"Vicarious", when considered in the full context of the album, is about being satisfied with a life of being consumed by your own self-pity. We, or at least a certain type of person, will not stop pitying themselves until they succeed in writing some profound message.



Also, as a supplement to your understanding of what living vicariously off of tragedy can be all about, consider the following clip of a post I made about the song "Jambi":


Quote:
Originally Posted by Godin
We live vicariously through characters when we read or watch narrative stories. All myths are narrative stories, so we live vicariously through them as well. Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell not only said that myths reside over an entire culture in each individual's collective unconsciousness, but they also claimed that each individual lives according to their own PERSONAL MYTH; a personal myth which is basically a nuanced version of the more universal myth which resides over the entire culture.

The verse that I paraphrased in detail above (third verse of Jambi) would be the personal myth of Maynard. He envisioned himself as suffering like a martyr for some greater cause. When we perceive the events of our life in a removed story-like fashion as Maynard suggests he was doing here, we view ourselves as merely a character in that story; as the main character in our personal myth. Since we project the real events of our life into a fictional story-like scenario inside of our minds, and we consider ourselves as a character inside of that story (a mental recreation of our actual selves) then we may live vicariously through the mythical version of ourselves just as we do while reading actual mythical stories.

People who live according to some conception of a personal myth, whether they realize it or not, actually process all of their experiences through the context of that personal myth and so experience their lives second-hand, as if they were living out a pre-written narrative. This theory of the "personal myth" is believed by many to be psychologically sound.

...I think this more personal definition of vicariously living through your own personal myth of suffering is what Maynard was truly alluding to with "Vicarious" the song. It would explain the "part vampire, part warrior" lyric in the song, since the individual living out his own personal myth would be doing so by feeding off of his own blood while simultaneously doing it for a heroic/warrior-like reason. He would be doing it for some perceived greater cause, just like Maynard implies he was like a "martyr" for his own cause.

-Godin

Last edited by Godin; 08-07-2006 at 11:28 AM..
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Old 08-07-2006, 12:51 PM   #4
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Re: Neither the brave nor bold...

I think your browser is messud up Godin. 'Nobody has anything to say'--yeah, actually there's a ton of insightfull shit on this song alone! even more on the other songs!!! whole threads devoted to thoughtfull discussion ranging from the humorously vapid, to the bowel-clinchingly academic. (judging from the above, I recommend the bowel-clinchingly academic.)
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Old 08-07-2006, 01:30 PM   #5
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Re: Neither the brave nor bold...

Quote:
more profound message that accuses some mysterious person of being responsible for the continuance of our imperfect human nature.
Quote:
"Neither the brave nor bold will write us the story, so we won't give pause until the blood is flowing."
-Vicarious
Personally, I've taken this line not to be about one person specifically but the news media in general. That is to say there is a general trend for substance being substituted for by sensationalism. The media in this case would not be living up to their end of the bargain.

So much of what I see on the news (or read in the news) these days is not even news and should not even be news. It's just garbage that happens to get good ratings.
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Old 08-07-2006, 04:00 PM   #6
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Re: Neither the brave nor bold...

From the research I've done on things Maynard has actually said in interviews and commentary, he has a problem with many of our "written" texts for spirituality. I think the correlation you've made here (Godin) between Rosetta Stoned and Vicarious, is a valid relation. The quote from Vicarious ("IMO") means that while there are many of us who have come to many real and valid ideas and opinions, (in RStoned case, while in an altered state of mind) we do nothing but forget them. Maynard has said many times that one of the things that bothers him most is our apathetic lifestyles. While we may not seem apathetic, and have 'alot to say' we DO nothing. So whether you are the brave, or the bold, you still have done nothing but WATCH.
...and that's something most of us here on TOOLnavy, should kind of get together on and actually FORM a TOOLnavy that DOES something other than TYPE.
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Old 08-07-2006, 06:47 PM   #7
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Re: Neither the brave nor bold...

I very muchy agry with your idea of the album being a unified piece of work. I have also noticed some lyrical simmilarities. I simply shrugged them off, however, not thinking much of them. These include lines
"But pull your head on out, your head please and give a listen"
-Vicarious
and
"Difficult to dance 'round this one 'til you pull it out, boy"
-The Pot
At first i thought the line from the pot related only to pulling the foot from the mouth and the head from the asshole. But now i believe it is also connected to the line from vicarious.

Another set is "Shine down upon the broken Shine on 'til the two become one"
-Jambi
and
"Silly monkeys give them thumbs they forge a blade and where there's one they're bound to divide it right in two"
-Right in two

I have not put any thought into the significance of the lyrics, but at least siome of the similar ones are identified so we can begin thinking of how this album truely relates as a unified piece of art.
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Old 08-07-2006, 06:50 PM   #8
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Re: Neither the brave nor bold...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caduceus11
...and that's something most of us here on TOOLnavy, should kind of get together on and actually FORM a TOOLnavy that DOES something other than TYPE.
Very good point, we should organize a council or something and try to make Toolnavy a little more productive
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Old 08-07-2006, 07:18 PM   #9
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Re: Neither the brave nor bold...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broker_Faustus
...actually there's a ton of insightfull shit on this song alone!
Nobody had anything to say about my opening post to this thread, until after I posted a follow up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Broker_Faustus
(judging from the above, I recommend the bowel-clinchingly academic.)
What's this supposed to mean?

-Godin
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Old 08-07-2006, 07:39 PM   #10
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Re: Neither the brave nor bold...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caduceus11
The quote from Vicarious ("IMO") means that while there are many of us who have come to many real and valid ideas and opinions, (in RStoned case, while in an altered state of mind) we do nothing but forget them.
This I think relates to something Maynard said a while ago...

I think psychedelics play a major part in what we do, but having said that, I feel that if somebody's going to experiment with those things they really need to educate themselves about them. People just taking the chemicals and diving in without having any kind of preparation about what they're about to experience tend to have no frame of reference, so they're missing everything flying by and all these new perspectives. It's just a waste. They reach a little bit of spiritual enlightenment, but they end up going, 'Well, now I need that drug to get back there again.' The trick is to use the drugs once to get there, and maybe spend the next ten years trying to get back there without the drug.

I think it plays a huge part on how passive we are as a people. We want this information, and we reach it and we somewhat understand it but then we never go back to it because of our pure laziness to put in the effort and go and grasp some greater understanding. Lateralus was in essence our "holy gift" and 10,000 Days is our way of going on about. We like it, we appreciate it somehow, but we are just fucking scum as a people that won't rise up and accept it and make it part of our daily lives and reach that higher ground.
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Old 08-07-2006, 09:08 PM   #11
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Re: Neither the brave nor bold...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Question
Very good point, we should organize a council or something and try to make Toolnavy a little more productive

Yea, I know what you mean. Maybe use this place, and our common interest in the things that TOOL has pointed out to us, or reitterated to us in some cases, as a benchmark to things that we can make a difference in. My generation is now getting to the age where we can make more things happen, but we are all numb and insignificant on the grand scale. I sometimes feel like such a hippocrit having spent so much time thinking and feeling along the same spirals as TOOL, then just go on about my life as a zombie, just like the rest of us. TOOL is an inspiration to me, and I will DO something....
...you know, I could be president of the procrastinators club, if only I'd ever get around to joining.
...and that's one of the things that bothers me about myself...I either do some procrastination or one of the many goals I set for each day, there's just never enough time....I'll figure out more one day....
...hold your light..11 lead me through each gentle step....
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Old 08-08-2006, 12:34 AM   #12
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Re: Neither the brave nor bold...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caduceus11
Yea, I know what you mean. Maybe use this place, and our common interest in the things that TOOL has pointed out to us, or reitterated to us in some cases, as a benchmark to things that we can make a difference in. My generation is now getting to the age where we can make more things happen, but we are all numb and insignificant on the grand scale. I sometimes feel like such a hippocrit having spent so much time thinking and feeling along the same spirals as TOOL, then just go on about my life as a zombie, just like the rest of us. TOOL is an inspiration to me, and I will DO something....
...you know, I could be president of the procrastinators club, if only I'd ever get around to joining.
...and that's one of the things that bothers me about myself...I either do some procrastination or one of the many goals I set for each day, there's just never enough time....I'll figure out more one day....
...hold your light..11 lead me through each gentle step....
I know exactly what you mean. It's shameful really, I feel pretty crap at times knowing that I am part of a generation that could make a difference, and really wanting to, but never really doing anything about it. The council idea sounds good, let's go for it.

Godin, I like your ideas about the connection between the songs by the way. And it connects well with what Maynard said about drugs. I think Tool are crying out for people to listen to them, to take away a warning message from their lyrics, and what better way to do it than wrap it up in a package as brilliant as their music.
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Old 08-08-2006, 01:47 AM   #13
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Re: Neither the brave nor bold...

Viva la revolution!! :p
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Old 08-08-2006, 07:25 AM   #14
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Re: Neither the brave nor bold...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caduceus11
I think the correlation you've made here (Godin) between Rosetta Stoned and Vicarious, is a valid relation. The quote from Vicarious ("IMO") means that while there are many of us who have come to many real and valid ideas and opinions, (in RStoned case, while in an altered state of mind) we do nothing but forget them. Maynard has said many times that one of the things that bothers him most is our apathetic lifestyles. While we may not seem apathetic, and have 'alot to say' we DO nothing. So whether you are the brave, or the bold, you still have done nothing but WATCH...
Ooh, I have to find that quote from Maynard. You really have reiterited my understanding of the message between "Vicarious" and "RS" well... concerning your usage of the word "apathetic". If Maynard has in the past has shown concern for people's apathetic behavior, then that would substantiate my claim that the link between these two songs creates a message that criticizes apathy, etc.

My challenge now is to prove that "Vicarious" actually IS meant to address (at least in part) people's tendency to thrive off of their own suffering. Everybody so far (and for obvious reasons) tends to unflinchingly believe the song is about how one person feeds off of the suffering of others, as witnessed in the news. I accept the challenge. :-)

-Godin

Last edited by Godin; 08-08-2006 at 07:29 AM..
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Old 08-08-2006, 09:56 PM   #15
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Re: Neither the brave nor bold...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godin
Nobody had anything to say about my opening post to this thread, until after I posted a follow up.
-Godin
I think he was referring to the notion that there's already a ton of ideas and thoughts which have been conveyed within these forums. Ones in fact that mirror your own. That nobody commented on your particular post doesn't mean they have nothing to say but more likely they've already said it previously in another thread.

In any case, if you want or need Vicarious to mean something more than what is perhaps the surface explaination, rest assured you're going to find it. Everyone does. Unfortunately, unless Maynard himself tells you that's exactly what he was trying to say, it's doubtful anything beyond the surface explanation of any Tool song has much credence to it.

From my perspective, the surface explaination is plenty already. Unless people have somehow convinced themselves that the surface explaination doesn't offer them enough to work on, there's really very little need to dig further until the possibilities of the basic interpretation has been exhausted or otherwise resolved.

In other words, dig further if you must, but don't simply discard what's already been dug up. That's probably even more dissappointing to Maynard, not somebody who chooses only to recognize the obvious, but rather somebody who chooses to ignore the obvious for that which is hidden and very likely does not even exist.
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Old 08-09-2006, 10:00 AM   #16
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Re: Neither the brave nor bold...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Happyfunball
Ia ton of ideas and thoughts which have been conveyed within these forums...that mirror your own...
I would love to see a post where somebody else mirrored the same thought I posted above about "Vicarious".


Quote:
Originally Posted by Happyfunball
In any case, if you want or need Vicarious to mean something more than what is perhaps the surface explaination, rest assured you're going to find it... Unfortunately, unless Maynard himself tells you that's exactly what he was trying to say, it's doubtful anything beyond the surface explanation of any Tool song has much credence to it.
Well put. It is always my intention to only discover what is on "the surface" of a song. I do not look for "hidden meanings". I don't even believe in "hidden meanings".

It is my current stance that the "surface" of "Vicarious" alludes to more than what most people have said about it. What is on the "surface" of "Vicarious" excludes the possibility that the song ONLY is referring to tragedy in the media. There is at least one person responding to my posts, however, that is causing me to seriously reconsider my stance through his well thought out responses. He's the man.

*FYI: I will admit that when I approach a song to translate what it is saying, I sometimes begin with an induction about what I assume it MAY mean. Then I repeatedly test the induction to see if it fits, and most importantly to see if it fits in a way that the artist himself could have intended. Many artists rehash, or reversify, what other artists have expressed in their music in the past. So, if I hear a song that touches upon "thriving from tragedy" then I am reminded of other songs from other artists that treated this similiar subject. I then consider further the possibility that Maynard, for instance, is providing his original take on what the other reputable artists (like Layne Stayley, James Hettfield of Metallica) have gone over in the past.

-Godin
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Old 08-09-2006, 06:29 PM   #17
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Re: Neither the brave nor bold...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godin
Ooh, I have to find that quote from Maynard. You really have reiterited my understanding of the message between "Vicarious" and "RS" well..........as witnessed in the news. I accept the challenge. :-)

-Godin


Yea, if you really think about it ALL the songs have some relation. They are all thoughts of one whos really THOUGHT about things...the thing your are talking about in the Vicarious song...well, I think there is one song (on the last 3 CDs) that is pretty blunt and forward....I think thats Vicarious on this one. But even in thse songs, there are ALWAYS several dimensions of it.
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Old 08-09-2006, 07:38 PM   #18
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Re: Neither the brave nor bold...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caduceus11
I think there is one song (on the last 3 CDs) that is pretty blunt and forward....I think thats Vicarious on this one.
Until I hear a likely explanation for the "neither the brave nor bold line", the possibility that "Vicarious" is straightfoward is excluded.

I wouldn't attempt to weigh the songs according to "straightforwardness"... They're all straightfoward from someone's point of view.

-Godin
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Old 08-09-2006, 08:38 PM   #19
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Re: Neither the brave nor bold...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godin
I would love to see a post where somebody else mirrored the same thought I posted above about "Vicarious".
I could very well be wrong. Your thoughts don't seem all that foreign to me so I assume they have been mentioned in a related sense elsewhere already. I can't say for a certainty that it has been covered, and if you can say for a certainty that it has not then I stand corrected.

I still disagree with you that the interpretation you're going for is the surface explaination of the song. By your own admission, you're digging deeper into the song itself to draw these conclusions as well as in attempting to link Vicarious with the other songs on the album. Most people are not coming to these conclusions so it has to be something below the surface, if it exists at all.

That's not to say there isn't more to the song, or that your ideas are invalid, but clearly there's an easy to get idea being presented initially which references the media and people's apparent need for bloodlust. So ideas that revolve around those concepts are what's on the song's surface.

I would continue to suggest that those simplistic explainations that relate to the media, bloodlust, apathy, etc; are relevant and can be applied to the individual so as to make a positive impact. Whether or not they're exactly what Maynard hoped we would find, they still matter and shouldn't be discarded. You seem almost disappointed that this is all some people have come up with for the song's meaning. Me personally, I'm fine with it because I know people can still make good on that interpretation if they want to. And I have to believe on some level Maynard would be happy with that as well even if that's all anybody ever gets out of the whole thing.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that your conclusions are not obvious to the majority of people I've seen posting here. You can either see that as a compliment (ie, you should be thankful your interpretation requires more thought to obtain) or you can be offended (ie, you take this to mean I believe you're just another Tool crackpot). Honestly, since I don't know you well enough in the first place, I'm hard pressed to see you as merely one or the other anyways, but perhaps a little bit of both :)
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Old 08-09-2006, 09:41 PM   #20
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Re: Neither the brave nor bold...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godin
Until I hear a likely explanation for the "neither the brave nor bold line", the possibility that "Vicarious" is straightfoward is excluded.
-Godin
Well here's one theory. People who push the envelop within entertainment are often seen by many as being brave or bold because of a role they've chosen to take on or an idea they wish to express within their art. In many cases, these same "brave" and "bold" choices are viewed by others as offensive and distasteful or even downright sinful. But gradually such offensive ideas have become commonplace so that what pushes the envelop today is far different from what pushed the envelop historically.

Within the context of the media, there are still lines left to be crossed. The public is constantly demanding for those boundaries to be changed however, and for various reasons. The result is that what was once considered inappropriate to be shown on a public broadcast or writen in a public forum is now accepted and bordering on normal. What was once considered a "brave" or "bold" choice is now standard or even restrained. The public again requires somebody "brave" or "bold" to reveal to them that which they now crave, which in the context of the song would appear to be even more bloodshed, more suffering, more tragedy, and ultimately more death. Until that craving is satisfied, they will not pause in their demands for more.

One could even view the terms "brave" and "bold" cynically to the effect that the person pushing the envelop is not neccessarily one or the other, but rather they're simply brash enough to cross the line of current acceptability without even considering that maybe it's not really worth doing. If what people really want is to see other people suffer, is it truly a brave or bold choice to cater to that desire. Or is it the case that somebody's eventually going to be inconsiderate enough to do it even though it means exploiting another human being's pain to do so.

So as the lyric goes: Neither the brave nor bold will write us the stories, so we won't give pause until the blood is flowing.

In other words, the bloodlusting public will not relent in demanding more new tragedy be revealed to them until somebody brave enough and bold enough (or brash enough) does so.
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Old 08-09-2006, 09:47 PM   #21
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Re: Neither the brave nor bold...

dud, after seeing the video where MJK takes down this rabid loser fan with a headlock, I gotta say: that's the object of your affection
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Old 08-10-2006, 05:09 AM   #22
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Re: Neither the brave nor bold...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godin
... the "neither the brave nor bold will write us the story" line makes no sense when you consider this lyric merely in the context of the song "Vicarous" alone. When you realize that the "write us the story" notion is ALSO introduced in "Rosetta Stoned" with the "details of our ending... to WRITE THEM DOWN for all the world to see" line, one can begin to induce a sort of connection at least between these two songs.

The connection between the songs is that if the character in "Rosetta Stoned" were to successfully express his profound world-changing message in writing, people would cease with their imperfect nature of living off of tragedy. Well, that is the LITERAL message between the two songs. Translation: "If you (the anonymous listener) would finally succeed in completing your grand ambitions, you would no longer be consumed in self-pity, in the tragic circumstances of failure in your own life."
OK. Personally I don't see any stronger connection between the VIC and RS quotes than the fact that they both use the word "write".

In RS there is no indication given that the alien's "message" when written down would have any effect specifically on our tendency to feed on tragedy. And in VIC there is no indication that the "story" the brave and bold should write has anything to do with this message from extraterrestrials.

Also, I don't see how you are moving from your "literal message" above to your "translation" (i.e from "the RS story would end global vicariousness" to "my own brave/bold story would end my own self-vicarious nature").

I don't think this translation works, because the VIC quote distinguishes between the "brave and bold" who are not writing the story on the one hand, and WE who "won't give pause..." on the other. Your translation requires US to be brave and bold enough to write the story, but the lyric doesn't say WE are failing to write our story - it says the BRAVE and BOLD are failing to write it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godin
Until I hear a likely explanation for the "neither the brave nor bold line", the possibility that "Vicarious" is straightfoward is excluded.
"Neither the brave nor bold will write us THIS story so
We won't give pause until the blood is flowin'"

I have given you my take on this lyric in the other thread, where I claimed that this is saying that the world's brave and bold people are failing to provide us with stories that are as entertaining as those provided by tragedy and death.
Your response was to focus on the word "write" and object to my reading this as meaning no more than "provide". All I can say is that this is how I first understood this line, before I even new the rest of the lyrics or how this bit was to fit in with the rest of the song, and that nothing since has given me reason to change my view.
If there was another point in THIS song that stressed the importance of "writing" then I might be inclined to change my interpretation, but as things stand I think my view is the more natural reading in the context of the song.

One further point. On your interpretation, there is no indication (within this song) as to what THE story is that the brave & bold are not writing. In fact there is no previous mention of this "story" at all, making it a rather mysterious reference. I have highlighted "THIS" in the above lyric quote, to show that on my view this is quite straightforward. The brave & bold are not writing THIS story of entertaining tragedy and death, or anything that can compare to it, so this is why we "won't give pause..." and intead choose to ignore them.
Note that changing "THE" to "THIS" is not necessary for my interpretation, but I think it helps.

Cheers. I hope this now qualifies as a "likely interpretation" for you :)
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Old 08-10-2006, 04:45 PM   #23
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Re: Neither the brave nor bold...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godin
Until I hear a likely explanation for the "neither the brave nor bold line", the possibility that "Vicarious" is straightfoward is excluded.

I wouldn't attempt to weigh the songs according to "straightforwardness"... They're all straightfoward from someone's point of view.

-Godin

I'm all for your practice of thinking for yourself....congratulations to you.
However, you may want to consider that terms like "straightforward" are RELATIVE terms; meaning when juxtapostioned for comparison....
However, I think one should be cautious when using words like "all" I don't think you can use the word ALL for anything about this music save that its ALL TOOL's music...that''s it.

And just exactly how would one consider songs like Lipan, (-)Ions, or Viginti Tres as straightforward>? If you heard these and instantly understood the point of it all, then you are a king among men. I salute your greatness and you should be saluted or bowed to...maybe even worshipped......
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Old 08-10-2006, 09:20 PM   #24
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Re: Neither the brave nor bold...

so, my fellow lazy tool fans...what do we do first to start this revolution?

impeach bush?
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Old 08-11-2006, 04:36 PM   #25
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Re: Neither the brave nor bold...

I don't think that's the answer....

I think we all get more involved in the process of things that control us. We DO have a say in the goverment we live under. And we as a free culture sit on our thumbs and let idiots and old-out of date ideas rule us. Among our generation there are many of us free thinkers whom are infuriated by our government all pretty much all that they do. The system is ruled by "old white men." Our day is nearing when all these old guys are dead and all that will be left is us....and who goes into politics? Not you, not me...people who shouldn't be in charge of a sea-monkey society will run ours....you and me will be controled by close minded rich kids that do not know anything about life...shit, I could go on forever here....

Just keep in mind that elections are ALWAYS coming up...we need to organize and get some good people into offices.....my plan:
the entertainment and sports industries have so much money they don't know what to do with it. here is our funding...now we just need a plan and organization to get things done. We CAN have a revolution without one single shot being fired....
Its time now....
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Old 08-11-2006, 05:36 PM   #26
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Re: Neither the brave nor bold...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caduceus11
I don't think that's the answer....

I think we all get more involved in the process of things that control us. We DO have a say in the goverment we live under. And we as a free culture sit on our thumbs and let idiots and old-out of date ideas rule us. Among our generation there are many of us free thinkers whom are infuriated by our government all pretty much all that they do. The system is ruled by "old white men." Our day is nearing when all these old guys are dead and all that will be left is us....and who goes into politics? Not you, not me...people who shouldn't be in charge of a sea-monkey society will run ours....you and me will be controled by close minded rich kids that do not know anything about life...shit, I could go on forever here....

Just keep in mind that elections are ALWAYS coming up...we need to organize and get some good people into offices.....my plan:
the entertainment and sports industries have so much money they don't know what to do with it. here is our funding...now we just need a plan and organization to get things done. We CAN have a revolution without one single shot being fired....
Its time now....
So, I'm in. Who do we designate a leader?
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Old 08-11-2006, 05:50 PM   #27
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Re: Neither the brave nor bold...

I think we need to restructure our ideas about "leaders" and what you are asking. What I think is that operations do indeed run more efficiently when there is a chain of command. Ask my 'baby's momma' about all the heated arguments we've had about how our home-life is structured. In any case, I think a good organization should be built around the neccessity of its purpose.
However, I think we have a long way to go before it comes to this....leaders and whatnot---we have to have someone to be lead before anyone can lead.....
I think we need a new thread first and foremost...
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Old 08-11-2006, 09:30 PM   #28
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Re: Neither the brave nor bold...

ideas are our leaders...what is our main idea?


there are thousands of us on TDN...what are our main ideas, what do we want most to change...


certanlty...i am drunk so please diregard my spelling....anyways...
where would we begin?

the socialize thread seems to be the most popular...shall we gather our followers there?

and what do we do...letters to the congress?
a reveoloutiion?

man i am drunk, but seriously, i am here to make a change...lets go.
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Old 08-12-2006, 12:41 AM   #29
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Re: Neither the brave nor bold...

you guys have alot of nothing to say, ill miss you
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Old 08-12-2006, 01:29 AM   #30
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Re: Neither the brave nor bold...

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedMetalSox
ideas are our leaders...what is our main idea?


there are thousands of us on TDN...what are our main ideas, what do we want most to change...


certanlty...i am drunk so please diregard my spelling....anyways...
where would we begin?

GREAT - but can it be an international revolution? Cos I am far away (and I want to play too).

And (sorry Godin - didn't mean to ignore the thread). I agree with (someone) that the media is controlled by people who continue to toe the line that the more tragedy the better - preferably with pictures and sobbing relatives and blood is cool too. Remember how scathing Maynard is towards CNN. I guess the brave story-teller would just tell the story. Without elaboration.

The other thing that this thread reminds me of is that line in Euolgy : he had a lot of nothing to say ... pointing his finger etc. It is a bit like your idea of conveying an important message that kind of gets lost. And I totally agree with the hilarious idea that in our "heightened state of consciousness" we have these BRILLIANT insightful ideas but then the next day - it is like WHAT the FUCK was I thinking? And thank GOD I didn't have a bloody pen - it would be even more embarrassing if I wrote it down!

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Old 08-12-2006, 01:41 AM   #31
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Re: Neither the brave nor bold...

fuck the world, there is no point in us changing, we can do nothing, leave it as it is
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Old 08-12-2006, 10:10 AM   #32
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Re: Neither the brave nor bold...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Question
I very muchy agree with your idea of the album being a unified piece of work.
Yeah, there ARE little parts to many of the songs which hint at a relation to other songs within the album... and then when you begin to further consider a possible correlation between the songs that are hinting at relations to one another, a profound understanding of the album begins to fall in place. (or, to be fair, perhaps a profound MISunderstanding, if I am completely wrong) :-)

The few you mentioned have certainly caught my eye. Here are a few key ones I'd like you to think about:

In "Rosetta Stoned", the guy who had a supposed alien encounter says he was told by the aliens that he was "the chosen one". "10,000 Days (wings pt. II)" is essentially a song trying to convince the "you" figure of the song that "You are the light and the way that they'll only read about". In other words, "you are the chosen one" would be a fair way of restating that "light and way" line.

In "The Pot", someone is characterized throughout the song with very many figures of speech, but the most recurrent lyrics in the song are "you must have been high". In the middle musical interlude of "Rosetta Stoned" where it builds up towards the "Overwhelmed as one would be..." section, Maynard sporadically repeates "high, high, high, high, high". This makes me want to carry over the character referred to in "The Pot" to the same character referred to in "RS", both of which are characterized as being consumed in a "hippy haze".

There are some other really interesting ones... I'm not really up to listing them all out right now though, for some reason. :-\ I will later.

-Godin
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Old 08-12-2006, 08:06 PM   #33
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Re: Neither the brave nor bold...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasha
...how passive we are as a people. We want this information...we reach it...somewhat understand it...we never go back to it...pure laziness...effort...grasp some greater understanding.

Wow, I read this right after you wrote it and it vaguely resonated with me. I've now reread it and realized how insightful what you said was... your comprehension of how the dramatic significance to the albums fall in relation to each other, as you nailed down with your summary below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasha
Lateralus was in essence our "holy gift"... 10,000 Days is our way of going on about...
You just summed up entirely what 10,000 Days is with that one remark. You've understood so concisely, and I'm of course happy because it happens to be in accord with what I've thought concerning the album. I've just used different terminology to arrive at the understanding.

Another way to put, or to add to, what you have said directly above would be

Quote:
Lateralus was in essence our "holy gift"... 10,000 Days is our way of going on about [and of not letting the message of Lateralus sink in. It is an album which more fervently pleads for the listener to take to heart the type of message that was presented in Lateralus].
-Godin
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Old 08-13-2006, 01:41 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toocooltool
fuck the world, there is no point in us changing, we can do nothing, leave it as it is
Its a fact that if we change, the world changes. No diputing that. The change may not be at the great scale you expect it to be, but then again, you're not taking time into account on that.
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Old 08-13-2006, 06:59 PM   #35
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Re: Neither the brave nor bold...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Happyfunball
The public again requires somebody "brave" or "bold" to reveal to them that which they now crave, ...even more bloodshed...suffering...tragedy, and ultimately more death. Until that craving is satisfied, they will not pause in their demands for more.
Great post. Thought provoking, for sure. There are some things which you might have fallen short explaining, though. If the bloodlusting public won't stop craving tragedy until either the brave or bold reveal it to them via riske' news story, would that revelation really STOP their craving? Perhaps temporarily. Well.. I guess even a temporary "pause" would still fit the line "we won't give pause until the blood is flowing".

hmm...

-Godin
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Old 08-16-2006, 06:35 PM   #36
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Re: Neither the brave nor bold...

you think you want to see it because thats what they told you!
Don't be a lamb of the herd! Think for youself.
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Old 08-16-2006, 07:03 PM   #37
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Re: Neither the brave nor bold...

Absolutely. I don't believe the pause to ever be permanent in any respect. The public will again require something more later on. The media itself will only pause for so long before succumbing to the pressure of going further than the opposition (albeit still with the public's pressumed approval). But for the moment just breaking whatever current boundary there is will suffice.

The pause begins and ends at that boundary. But the boundary itself is in constant change, the pause only lasts for so long before the cycle restarts. Somebody demands for the boundary to be pushed. Somebody pushes that boundary. A new boundary is created in it's place. Somebody again demands for that boundary to be pushed. Etc, etc, etc. The pause occurs at each new boundary, but it only lasts for as long as the majority is satisfied with the boundaries' current placement.
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Old 08-16-2006, 07:21 PM   #38
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Re: Neither the brave nor bold...

Well, that's an insightful post. The song itself doesn't substantiate much of the insight that you've elaborated upon (in the above message), but I don't think that's really a big problem. What you've described as the continually receading boundary of media descency is certainly a reality, so very possibly this is something like what MJK is referring to. As far as I'm concerned, if the song truly can make sense when standing alone then there is no reason to assume it is necessarily linked to any other song on the album. I now can listen to "Vicarious" and believe it is self-contained in overall sentiment, if you know what I mean.

-Godin
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Old 08-16-2006, 09:09 PM   #39
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Re: Neither the brave nor bold...

I think each song, does indeed stand alone, however, each TOOL cd (i think we gotta quit saying album) has its own grand theme, you know the sum of its parts.
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Old 08-17-2006, 12:53 AM   #40
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Re: Neither the brave nor bold...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Happyfunball
But the boundary itself is in constant change, the pause only lasts for so long before the cycle restarts. Somebody demands for the boundary to be pushed. Somebody pushes that boundary. A new boundary is created in it's place. Somebody again demands for that boundary to be pushed. Etc, etc, etc. The pause occurs at each new boundary, but it only lasts for as long as the majority is satisfied with the boundaries' current placement.
Sounds like a bit of a stinkfist theme slipping in there. "I don't want it - just need it". The public have become completely desensitized to horror on tv that it has to get more and more horrible to register any emotion.
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