Fibonacci sequence, what the hell?

[TheHolyGift]

We all know about the supposed fibonacci sequence in the intro of Lateralus. Played as a pattern by Danny. Apparently someone might need to help me out here. I've never heard any fibonacci pattern at all. Throughout the intro, Danny just plays the same thing over and over. Did I miss some clue? Help a n00b out, man!

[Cyanide ChrYst]

I actually found a diagram of the Sequence made with maynard's words. Since I cant upload it onto here (and i havent seen the diagram in months) it's like;

Black
Then
White Are
All I see
In My Infancy

(syllable by syllable, adding and adding)

[Winter]

"As we all know..."?

It goes like this: 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 etc.

1 Black
1 Then
2 White Are
3 All I see
5 In My In-fan-cy
8 Red and Yel-low Then Came to Be
5 Reach-ing Out to Me
3 Lets Me See

[an_underused_memory]

The question was asked in relation to Danny's drumming, however, not Maynard's lyrics!

The fibonacci series in question isn't in the intro like many of us have said, but in that second section when the main (chorus) riff kicks in without the vocals. I've read in many posts that this progression contains a fibonacci series but I just can't see it.
The feel to me is a group of 9, then 8, then 7.
If anyone has a way of re-interpretting that i'd be interested.

I think the next logical question is: Ok, so Tool have used a fibonacci series in their song. Whats the signifigance of that?
I have no idea!

The golden section/fibonacci is a ratio of dividing something into two asymmetrical pieces, and its been used by everyone from ancient Aztec sculptors to Mozart, to Picasso and Debussy and Bartok. The last 2 were aware of the mathematic idea and used it conciously, but there seems no evidence that the others worked it out especially. Which is strange because it often is used EXACTLY: in most Mozart sonatas, the 2nd section starts at the exact bar of the golden section a 5:8 ratio of the entire piece.
So have tool conciously used this idea, or is it a collective conciousness idea being tapped into, like the way most folk musics use a 3 3 2 division of 8 beats?
I guess we'll never know for sure but theories are interesting and welcome!
cheers

[pops333]

Theres this little thing called coincidence. I doubt Tool really thinks their shit out that far. If I'm wrong, I'll eat a big bowl of my own excrement.
















I sure hope I'm wrong! :D

[IDontMind]

Theres this little thing called coincidence. I doubt Tool really thinks their shit out that far. If I'm wrong, I'll eat a big bowl of my own excrement.

I sure hope I'm wrong! :D

You should probably get that bowl of shit ready. It's entirely plausible that they would do this on purpose.

It's not even "thinking it out that far," if you think about it. It is, after all, a rather simple series of numbers.

In fact, I have "1123581321" as my password to get onto Windows.

[geoman2k]

Theres this little thing called coincidence. I doubt Tool really thinks their shit out that far. If I'm wrong, I'll eat a big bowl of my own excrement.


http://cdicarlo.com/paper_04maynard.htm

get that bowl ready

edit: if you don't like reading a lot
MK: "I use the archetype stories of North American aboriginals and the themes or colours which appear over and over again in the oral stories handed down through generations. Black, white, red, and yellow play very heavily in aboriginal stories of creation."

Maynard now mentions the Spiral Sequence of Life, the Golden Rectangle, the Fibonacci Sequence and the Phi Ratio. For further information on these aspects of Tool's songs and ideas, there are several websites to consider for reference:

[tcM_Emperor]

I love when people try to speak for Tool and assume they wouldn't do things that complex. Stop trying to speak for them!

[Mega Phunkatron]

I think it's pretty much all but spelled out that the fibbonaci sequence was intended. I mean, it even says "Spiral out", and everyone knows how the fibbonaci sequence can be used to build a spiral. Oh, and about 987, 987 is the 17th (if you count zero) number in the fibbonaci sequence. If anyone knows what THAT significance is (17), please post. Seacrest Out!!

[IDontMind]

... Oh, and about 987, 987 is the 17th (if you count zero) number in the fibbonaci sequence. If anyone knows what THAT significance is (17), please post. Seacrest Out!!


I don't think it has any significance if you consider 987 the 17th digit; but, if you consider 987 the 16th digit, the 17th digit is a prime number.

However, I don't think there's anything special about the number 17 in conjunction with 987.

[pops333]

I love when people try to speak for Tool and assume they wouldn't do things that complex. Stop trying to speak for them!

I love it how people try to put significance to every little thing Tool does. It reminds me of when I had to read Charles Dickens in English and the teacher would say "Dickens did nothing by accident!"



Tool does nothing by accident. :D

[anotherPieceOfThePuzzle]

In fact, I have "1123581321" as my password to get onto Windows.

I logged into your system and changed it to dumbass for security purposes.

[TheHolyGift]

I logged into your system and changed it to dumbass for security purposes.

Let's try and find a mathematic sequence that contains his address!

As for things that actually have to do with the thread, I'd thought it was probably in the chorus section. But I still don't see shit. I think it's just Maynard's vocal that follows the sequence.

[Lackymacky]

yeah i know what you mean, i cant tell that the drumming is being played using the sequence..

how can i tell???


wont someone solve our tool woes? :(

[IDontMind]

I logged into your system and changed it to dumbass for security purposes.

Quite ignorant. Congratulations on making yourself look like a dumbfuck. Move along.

[pops333]

Quite ignorant. Congratulations on making yourself look like a dumbfuck. Move along.

Sorry man, but he isn't the one who looks like a dumbfuck. Move along.

[IDontMind]

Sorry man, but he isn't the one who looks like a dumbfuck. Move along.

How did I know that some lameass would reply, using "move along" at the end of their post, as well?

[Triangular_Vision]

with a little more thought you probably could have accurately predicted the poster too... pops seems to be about 30 to 50 years behind the rest of us... be nice... *whispers* he's special... check out his posts in ticks and leeches... simply amazing. *ahem, cough.... choke..."

[pops333]

How did I know that some lameass would reply, using "move along" at the end of their post, as well?

I don't know, maybe because you a smarmy fatass?

Nevermind, you have totally outsmarted me. That was a great post and everyone thinks you're cool. Good job man, can we be friends?

Hey are you gonna eat that entire cake? C'mon man, share a little.

[Morbid_Angel]

Man stop being mean to him all he was trying to do was prove that the numbers were a simple series of numbers when he was reffering to his windows p.w and there you go having to be a dick about it...give him a break

[IDontMind]

with a little more thought you probably could have accurately predicted the poster too... pops seems to be about 30 to 50 years behind the rest of us... be nice... *whispers* he's special... check out his posts in ticks and leeches... simply amazing. *ahem, cough.... choke..."

Haha. Seen them, and I know exactly what you mean.

[IDontMind]

I don't know, maybe because you a smarmy fatass?

How much more original could you possibly get? You never cease to amaze me with your endless stream of amazingly clever material.

Nevermind, you have totally outsmarted me. That was a great post and everyone thinks you're cool.

The fact that you're attempting to turn everything into a pissing contest reveals evidence of insecurity issues. Would you like to share them with the class, sir?

Good job man, can we be friends?

You can start by making me a steak and apologizing for wasting my time.

Hey are you gonna eat that entire cake? C'mon man, share a little.

Yet another clever barb from an entity with the mental capabilities of a common fruit fly.. For your own sake, refrain from posting any further nonsense. It's only serving to make you look like a fool. =/

Have a nice day. Really.

[pops333]

How much more original could you possibly get? You never cease to amaze me with your endless stream of amazingly clever material.



The fact that you're attempting to turn everything into a pissing contest reveals evidence of insecurity issues. Would you like to share them with the class, sir?



You can start by making me a steak and apologizing for wasting my time.



Yet another clever barb from an entity with the mental capabilities of a common fruit fly.. For your own sake, refrain from posting any further nonsense. It's only serving to make you look like a fool. =/

Have a nice day. Really.



its funny that you keep coming back to this 'pissing contest'. its great, you made my day man :)

[IDontMind]

its funny that you keep coming back to this 'pissing contest'. its great, you made my day man :)

I'd hardly consider checking up on my subscriptions an example of coming back just to compete in said "pissing contest."

:/ You're already doing a bad enough job attempting to make any points on the Discussion board. I don't advise trying and failing to make one here, as well.

[phatslug]

I dunno if necessarily the drum rhythm is any sort of spiral, but if you listen to Lateralus with headphones, the intro parts where its just drums and Maynard singing, the sound of the drums kinda rotates around your head directionaly. Its done with the stereo and probly some surround sounds things, I don't really know. To me it sounds like just a circle really, but it could be a spiral. Pretty cool effect.

[thelambslain]

Oh, and about 987, 987 is the 17th (if you count zero) number in the fibbonaci sequence. If anyone knows what THAT significance is (17), please post. Seacrest Out!!


*sigh. . . you can't start with zero fool. Do you know how the Fibonacci Sequence works? If you start with zero, as you so stupidly propose, then you add zero to zero; what do you get? Do you get 1? I don't think so. You can't start with zero.

And anyway, on the significance of 987: I read somewhere that the working title for the song "Lateralus" was "789" when Tool was still in the process of hammering out the album.

[thelambslain]

I think it's pretty much all but spelled out that the fibbonaci sequence was intended. I mean, it even says "Spiral out", and everyone knows how the fibbonaci sequence can be used to build a spiral. Oh, and about 987, 987 is the 17th (if you count zero) number in the fibbonaci sequence. If anyone knows what THAT significance is (17), please post. Seacrest Out!!

[Spaceman Spiff]

*sigh. . . you can't start with zero fool. Do you know how the Fibonacci Sequence works? If you start with zero, as you so stupidly propose, then you add zero to zero; what do you get? Do you get 1? I don't think so. You can't start with zero.
You're wrong. You can start the series with 0,1,... 1,1,... or 1,2,... all three are equally correct. You don't add to get the first two terms anyway.

http://www.geom.uiuc.edu/~demo5337/s97b/fibonacci.html

Fibonacci Series, in mathematics, series of numbers in which each member is the sum of the two preceding numbers. For example, a series beginning 0, 1 ... continues as 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, and so forth. The series was discovered by the Italian mathematician Leonardo Fibonacci (circa 1170-c. 1240), also called Leonardo of Pisa. Fibonacci numbers have many interesting properties and are widely used in mathematics. Natural patterns, such as the spiral growth of leaves on some trees, often exhibit the Fibonacci series.

Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2003. © 1993-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

[Egocentric]

I'd agree with Spiff's comment about how it represents spiral-movement and the natural formation of leaves. The leaves show a simple process repeated constantly that forms a tree and its leaves, I guess the concept of fractals.

But I think it's basically utilizing the nuances of music to their potential. The shift is always on that scale of sequencing, and I'd say it can be considered a method of evolution really.

I think that's one of Tool's main themes in the progression of their album, evolving. And of course in the music structures they make in their songs, I'd defenitely say they're progressing in a very evolutionary way. You know, "spiral out".

and Phatslug, yes i too would defenitely say that the motion-feeling of Lateralus is a spiral, when he starts with "thinking" then "analyzing" then "separates", its like the spiral is being spun an extra beat within the same time frame, I think?

my theory: it is rotating a circle, it defenitely has that feel, but with the incorporation of TIME into the element of music, we see the vibratory path of music is always as a whole moving in a direction of time,

so

a circle being spun, rotating on its own, then as a whole gets pushed forward by time, then voila: a spiral.

I'm gonna keep going with this one, since i was literally blown-the-fuck-away with a comedy special by George Carlin, i'm guessing many have seen it.

He seems to incorporate this sequencing in his COMEDY skits, similar to how Tool utilizes it with music.
Watch this comedy special on mushrooms because that way your mind is completely connected to his movements which are all pre-orchestrated for...basically the way the mind words. He moves his hands at an angle and talks in his syllables and words to give a very very strong effect into his messages.
He incorporates sooooo many poignant meanings into his routine, and very little of that meaning is conveyed with words. It's pure genius in my opinion, and it all has to do with "the spiral"

basically, our minds are spiral motion, and it works well and flows well for a reason, just like music sounds good for a reason. this defenitely is NO accident from tool, as far as i knew Maynard and the band used the sequencing for...everything right?

[thejesus]

Something I wanted to add in regards to the questions about the rhythm of the song containing part of the Fibonacci sequence...

As another poster pointed out, the rhythm of the chorus is 9-8-7, and the number 987 (nine-hundred eighty-seven) is in fact a step in the sequence…

However…the manner in which Danny relates the 9-8-7 progression to the 16th step in the sequence is not a natural phenomenon in the sense that the Fibonacci sequence itself is a natural phenomenon…rather, it just a coincidence that results from the numerical system we use…

The system that most human civilizations have chosen to use to represent numerical values is based on a system of 10s (tens)…that is, you increase one decimal place every ten multiples….and this probably evolved out of pure convenience given that we have 10 fingers to count with…

However, if our numerical system were not based on 10s, and instead on say 9s or 11s or whatever other number, the numerical value represented by "987" in our system would not relate to the numbers 9, 8, and 7 in the way that they do when you are counting by tens…which means that the relation ship to the values 9, 8, and 7 and the number 987 is not part of any natural phenomenon…it just a coincidence that happens to occur when you are counting by tens…

So, for example, if there were an intelligent civilization elsewhere in the universe who were to hear the song, the would likely be able to recognize the vocal progression as following the first few steps in the Fibonacci sequence, the sequence being a natural universal phenomenon and all…but unless they too to base their numerical system on 10s, the rhythm of the chorus being 9-8-7 and the 16th step in the sequence would have no relation to each other whatsoever and would mean nothing…

I hope I explained that good enough for at least a couple of people to understand what I’m going on about…Only the boys from Tool could make a song that is this difficult to pick apart…lol

[hateAliases]

coincidence. absolutely.

maynards not that stupid starting a fibonacci and doesnt end it properly... i think it has more to do with the drums. He's just reacting to the feeling the drums give him.

you all forgot he said he is "more a reacting artist than a creator of art?" so that'd mean he prolly was like.

"TOOLS. i want to start a fibonacci - attention.. nah... adam!? stop stop uhm... turn that guitar off and justin.. ughh just leave damnit ..... DANNY MY FRIEND come do something and help me out here..."

bored.... another 3 minutes of wasted time...

[Chris_Brightwell]

9/8, 8/8, 7/8

Figure it out from there.

[thejesus]

coincidence. absolutely.

maynards not that stupid starting a fibonacci and doesnt end it properly... i think it has more to do with the drums. He's just reacting to the feeling the drums give him.

you all forgot he said he is "more a reacting artist than a creator of art?" so that'd mean he prolly was like.

"TOOLS. i want to start a fibonacci - attention.. nah... adam!? stop stop uhm... turn that guitar off and justin.. ughh just leave damnit ..... DANNY MY FRIEND come do something and help me out here..."

bored.... another 3 minutes of wasted time...

no idea what you're saying here dude

[abrack29]

Well, the first part, I think he means that Maynard doesn't go from 8 to 13, instead he goes back to 5... but the second part of his post... I have no idea what he means.

[abrack29]

Hmm... "As below so above and beyond I imagine" is 13 syllables

[Systolic]

yeah i know what you mean, i cant tell that the drumming is being played using the sequence..

how can i tell???


wont someone solve our tool woes? :(


Count the time signature.. For every beat count...
ON "Over thinking over-" Is 9 beats
"-Analyzing separates" Is 8 Beats
"The body from the mind" - Is 7 beats.

If you dont know how to distiguish time signatures, then you're somewhat at a disadvantage in hearing it.

This, my friends, is why I am a music major.

[Fit4Demolition]

haha i love this. theres two spirals that break from one which explains the fault in the sequence, and the significance of the name schism, a breach in union. also its not coincidence because when the sequence is interpretted correctly the highest number is the same amount of tracks in lateralus. order the tracks according to the sequence and the songs flow together. I probably made a few mistakes or something but this is the site that i got it from.

http://www.bofe.org/overthinking.htm

[epistomai]

I already heard the songs from that order.... 6 7 5 8 4 9 13 1 12 2 11 3 10 (the spirals goes out and then in). The explanation of spirals are from about flower of life, they goes forward and backwards also.

But there's a clue also about that. In some place I've read that Egipt pyramids and Ghize's Sphinx are aligned to Orion's constellation. The pyramids are in sector 8 or 13 (don't remember) and are the stars of Orion's Belt, and the begining of the spiral is in Omega Orioni's star; in the very center of orion. If you look into the guy on the CD that has been cutted off, you'll see one of the flames in the center (omega orionis?). So, fibonacci series may have another clue to the entire album for another significance

[Rubb.]

and it was also the key to opening the fighter plane with cool cloaking abilities...

[iuguolo]

.But there's a clue also about that. In some place I've read that Egipt pyramids and Ghize's Sphinx are aligned to Orion's constellation. The pyramids are in sector 8 or 13 (don't remember) and are the stars of Orion's Belt, and the begining of the spiral is in Omega Orioni's star; in the very center of orion. If you look into the guy on the CD that has been cutted off, you'll see one of the flames in the center (omega orionis?). So, fibonacci series may have another clue to the entire album for another significance

http://www.burzum.com/burzum/meaning/ufo/

The Orion Mystery


Robert Bauval made the discovery that the pattern of the three belt stars of the constellation of Orion appears to be exactly mimicked on the ground by the pattern of the three great pyramids at Giza. The match is perfect, but far more amazing is the date when the constellation would have appeared correctly above them in the sky; 10,500BC.

Returning to the sphinx, it's constellation is naturally Leo, being the lion. At a particular point in time the constellation Leo appeared directly above where the Sphinx stands. The exact date of that point in history is: 10,500BC.

[epistomai]

and have you ever see the images? damn, I got to find that page again

[ween69]

I think it's pretty much all but spelled out that the fibbonaci sequence was intended. I mean, it even says "Spiral out", and everyone knows how the fibbonaci sequence can be used to build a spiral. Oh, and about 987, 987 is the 17th (if you count zero) number in the fibbonaci sequence. If anyone knows what THAT significance is (17), please post. Seacrest Out!!

is there anyway that you can graph that seqence on a graphing calculator?

[Inner_Eulogy]

Hmm... "As below so above and beyond I imagine" is 13 syllables

No Kiddin, 13 is part of the sequence genius um 5+8=13

[HateSolstice]

So, why again is this sequence thing so significant? Call me uneducated, uncultured, whatever. I don't know anything about this Fibbonaci sequence, and I don't really feel like reading gargantuan amounts of text right now to learn about it. A simplified version would be nice, but it seems like everyone around here has to be the smartest one around.

I'm not saying I'm simple, I just can admit I don't know everything, unlike many people. And I also don't see everything Tool does as "significant". "Cool" and "significant" are two totally seperate things.

[epistomai]

So, why again is this sequence thing so significant? Call me uneducated, uncultured, whatever. I don't know anything about this Fibbonaci sequence, and I don't really feel like reading gargantuan amounts of text right now to learn about it. A simplified version would be nice, but it seems like everyone around here has to be the smartest one around.

I'm not saying I'm simple, I just can admit I don't know everything, unlike many people. And I also don't see everything Tool does as "significant". "Cool" and "significant" are two totally seperate things.

I don't know everything, too. I only know cool things about fibonacci series and if it's true or not the reorder of the tracklisting I don't care. I like it better play the entire CD reordered that way than the original one.

Gargantua was a cool book, also

[civdis24]

This song as well as disposition and reflection (if not the entire album) is about expansion of consciousness, progression, evolution, transcendence to higher planes of existance... it is basically about the desire to explore the limitless mental and spiritual possibilities we are capable of as human beings. its about how we fit into the world around us, how we are connected, nature, etc.

The song, I think, purposefully utilizes the Fibonacci series because the series itself is thought to be the mathematical foundation of life and beauty. It can be uses to draw spirals known as "the golden spiral"

"The golden spiral is the initial zygote spine shape for all vertebrates, it describes the basic way air currents interact, the spread of segments in sunflowers, the arrangement of segments in beehives, the shape of nautilus shells, ferns, the basic proportion of the human form, the dimensions of The Parthenon and the trailing arms of spiral-formation galaxies."

[blackandwhite]

http://www.geom.uiuc.edu/~demo5337/s97b/spiral.html

That is the spiral of Fibonacci for those who are not sure about it.

[pandora's paradox]

A fibonacci sequence is a sequence of numbers where each number is the sum of the two preceeding numbers.

So you could start with 100 and 2, and the sequence would continue 102, 104, 206, 310....

In this particular example of a fibonacci sequence 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13 we could just as easily work back wards to find previous terms

1-1=0
1-0=1
0-1=-1
1-(-1)=2
-1-2=-3......

so we now have .....-3, 2, -1, 1, 0, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13....

So there is nothing special about the term number of 987 in this sequence.
No point in looking at 16's or 17's. Its the 987 thats important.