Time Signature

[Ahnijson_films]

Okay, I've seen some people commenting on Lateralus being in 9 then 8 then 7 time signature. I feel this is incorrect.

I feel in the beginning, during the "Black and White are all I see, in my infancy red and yellow then came to be reaching out to me, lets me see" and anywhere it repeats that it is in 5/4 Time. Count the high hat. I'm getting 5. Or 10/8. Either way... not 9.

Then it changes to 6/8 I believe, before the "I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm..." and after. During that part I feel the bass is in 6/8, the drums are in 5/4. and the guitar is in 4/4. Maybe... I'm a little sketchy on that one.

In the end when he goes into "With my feet upon the ground I lose myself between the sounds" it's a big ole 4/4.

Alright, that's what I think. All of you Dream Theatre fans and Music Theory Majors out there tell me what you think. I could be very wrong, and most likely am. :) Thanks!

[Dr. Strangelove]

The intro is in 6/4
then the "chorus" if you would call it that, goes 9/8, 8/8, 7/8 and repeats that 3 times
then the "verse" if you would call it that, is in 5/4, it repeats
after they both repeat twice, it goes 9/8, 8/8, 7/8 for a while and Adam does a little solo thing
then it goes into 6/4 for the "reaching out to embrace the random..." part. and it stays in 6/4 for the rest of the song, I really love at the end where Adam and Justin keep repeating 2 bars of 6/4 while Danny plays 3 bars of 4/4.

Hope this helped

[Ahnijson_films]

Yeah. I listened to the song more thoroughly today and discovered the part in 9 8 7. Thanks for the help.

[Pro_Art]

If you use your imagination, the time signature wanders
1 through 9. Not just 9, 8, 7, but 6, 5, 4, 3, 2 (pushing it),
and 1 (really pushing it). The song's time signature
reflects the song's message. Think laterally.

Spiral out,
Pro Art (Protocol Artisan)

[drum_dood]

Originally posted by Dr. Strangelove
The intro is in 6/4
then the "chorus" if you would call it that, goes 9/8, 8/8, 7/8 and repeats that 3 times
then the "verse" if you would call it that, is in 5/4, it repeats
after they both repeat twice, it goes 9/8, 8/8, 7/8 for a while and Adam does a little solo thing
then it goes into 6/4 for the "reaching out to embrace the random..." part. and it stays in 6/4 for the rest of the song, I really love at the end where Adam and Justin keep repeating 2 bars of 6/4 while Danny plays 3 bars of 4/4.

Hope this helped
Dr.Strangelove is absolutely correct....i play parts of this song along with parts of the grudge and schism in my pep band at schoool with my friends alx and jn...it's fun and everybody likes it...

[the reverend]

Whats with you and talking about your pep band drum dood?
That the secoind post ive seen by you saying pretty much exactly the same thing...

The thing that i found interesting about the 9, 8, 7 time signatures in Lateralus is that 987 is a number in the Fibonacci seqence which seems to have a lot to do with the song. Thanks to whoever pointed that out in one of the other threads.

[SRx71]

I've wondered about this for the past few days, every since I found out that Lateralus' working title was 987. I knew it was about playing in those time signatures, but 987, to me, isn't really much of a title for a Tool song. Something like Lateralus is more subtle, but not entirely. 987 is too distinguished and noticeable to the proficient musician.

[drum_dood]

Originally posted by the reverend
Whats with you and talking about your pep band drum dood?
That the secoind post ive seen by you saying pretty much exactly the same thing...

hey reverend, if YOU got to play tool on the drums for pep band with guitars and a bass, wouldn't you brag a little bit too?

[MushroomStamp]

Originally posted by drum_dood

hey reverend, if YOU got to play tool on the drums for pep band with guitars and a bass, wouldn't you brag a little bit too?


I don't. Besides, it has nothing to do with the thread topic.

[the reverend]

I knowill sound stupid asking this but...

What exactly is a pep band by the way??

We dont have them over here in Georges Pizzeria....

[drum_dood]

Originally posted by the reverend
I knowill sound stupid asking this but...

What exactly is a pep band by the way??

We dont have them over here in Georges Pizzeria....
a pep band is a band that plays at basketball or football games (at least in my school) but our school's cool and lets me, a guitarist, and a bassist play what we want to play so we play tool and other cool songs. oh sorry to get off the thread topic i know that that's forbidden here in the tool page...i forgot that i've never in the history of my coming to this page seen anyone go off of the subject of the original thread...i'm deeply sorrry and i regret ever doing so....my bad :-(

and on that question i asked earlier it read "hey reverend, if YOU got to play tool on the drums for pep band with guitars and a bass, wouldn't you brag a little bit too?" and mushroom stamp replied, "I don't. Besides, it has nothing to do with the thread topic." so i'm wondering what mushroomstamp means by this....i ask if the reverend would brag about it and the guy replies "i don't..." so um....should i even dignify his response with another response....oh i already did

[MushroomStamp]

Originally posted by drum_dood
and on that question i asked earlier it read "hey reverend, if YOU got to play tool on the drums for pep band with guitars and a bass, wouldn't you brag a little bit too?" and mushroom stamp replied, "I don't. Besides, it has nothing to do with the thread topic." so i'm wondering what mushroomstamp means by this....i ask if the reverend would brag about it and the guy replies "i don't..." so um....should i even dignify his response with another response....oh i already did

this is what i meant

wouldn't you brag a little bit too?

No. There are plenty of people who can play tool songs on drums. Its annoying when people pat themselves on the back for it.

it has nothing to do with the thread topic

I normally have no problem going off topic, except for the purpose of patting oneself on the back (a hotbutton for me). What really prompted me to respond was that you had already boasted about your pep band in three other threads.


should i even dignify his response with another response

am i supposed to feel chastised? Just think of it a constructive criticism.

[46&2]

Isnt 987 a number in the Fibonacci Sequence? That would fit in with the verse theme.

[MushroomStamp]

Originally posted by 46&2
Isnt 987 a number in the Fibonacci Sequence? That would fit in with the verse theme.

yes it is. Whether or not the connection is intentional, well, is up to you.

[drum_dood]

Originally posted by MushroomStamp
No. There are plenty of people who can play tool songs on drums. Its annoying when people pat themselves on the back for it.

it was more of a way of saying that what i said was right because if i can actually play the song you might want to listen to me. if you don't think i can play the song (like most drummers that boast about playing tool) then you don't have to listen to me. but there's one thing you have to remember about drummers, they are happy to progress. so if a drummer can play tool and brags about it people should encourage, not try to bring them down. so just remember that next time you think playing tool on the drums is mediocore feat (which is what i think you were implying). i know and fully realize that there are way better drummers than me and always will be, especially those who play tool. but i can play tool, and i'm happy with that, so if you aren't it doesn't matter to me one bit. i don't mind...

[Ahnijson_films]

sigh........ just end this please. I got my answer to the question. No more prep bands and such. I am more wise after reading all 10000 of these back and forths, so just stop, unless it is Time Signature Related. Please.

[twk77]

Originally posted by MushroomStamp


yes it is. Whether or not the connection is intentional, well, is up to you.

i'll bet you can't describe what the fibonacci squence is. even better, other than math, you probably can't even tell anyone of its other applications. and seeing that the band has listed themselves as "geeks" on their undertow inlay... i'd assume that the connection might be intentional. i just think that they might not have gone with that 987 title because it would have been too obvious for them.

[Narcissus]

This thread saddens me. It is not about who can drum, and who cant. It is not about encouragement, or bringing other people down. It is not about who knows what and their applications. It is place to ask questions, and be enlightened. The corruption of this thread is almost as severe as the corruption of the Christan Religion. Wise Up, Settle Down, and do something positive. Enhance the world and the people who live in it. Dont reverse the direction and intention of a good thing.

Everyone who helped with the time signatures...thanks alot.

Finally, Whether the use of the Fibonacci sequence was intentional or coincidental...I dont know, and neither do you. Only Tool knows for sure. Please do give your opinions...but dont try to lessen another's.

[fuzzo]

how do you count time signatures -.-?

[timesig.net]

Time signatures are the easiest thing in music.
Heres the deal.
The above number tells the number of beats (counts) in a measure. The below number tells the type of beats:
8- eighth note
16- 16th note
4- quarter note.
Now, all you need to know is the bpm, but for all intesive purposes you should be able to feel that in the music. It's tougher on songs in freaky time signatures, like 7/4 (ticks and leeches), and 5/4 the patient*.
have fun figuring out every note and every beat in every tool song, it takes a while. Drum parts are easy if you know how to here them. Also drum parts are "felt not played."

*not harder to feel the beat but harder to put a number on the tempo

[Sinkingdeeper]

It's all well and good to describe how to do time signatures, but how do you know how many of those beats are in a measure if you don't know what exactly a measure is. How do you measure a measure and how many beats are in it?

[Pro_Art]

Originally posted by Sinkingdeeper
It's all well and good to describe how to do time signatures, but how do you know how many of those beats are in a measure if you don't know what exactly a measure is. How do you measure a measure and how many beats are in it?

Good point. If there is no written version available,
you'd just use your best judgement.

Pro Art (Protocol Artisan)

[SmallWangedMan]

The bottom number is not particularly important, unless you plan to transcript the music then you have to decide on something. But a song could be transcripted in 5/4 or 5/8 etc etc and generally sound the same, with some exceptions. Especially in Tool music, since they bridge and change at unconventional times, you might find yourself having to change time sigs in the middle of a measure if you choose the wrong one!

[TimothyLeary]

actually, u can fit the song into a 9/4, 8/4, 7/4 pattern throughout most the song, and in reality u could put it into any pattern because of the time displacement that they use. because, if u add the time signatures together... *drum roll* 24/4 which is 4/4 times six, i.e. it is in standard time. so it doesn't really matter that it is 9/4, 8/4, 7/4 because they only arranged it that way to fit in with the spiral message. and the guy that said the thing about counting the hi-hat beats, u are right about it being 5/4, but u shouldn't trust danny to get the time because he plays polyrythyms and in this song he plays alot of imitated time signatures, i.e.like when maynards starts "with my feet apon the ground.." adam is playing a 3/4 rythym (or u could divide it as 9, 8, 7 if u just wanted to be nit-picky) and it SOUNDS like danny is playing 4/4, but he is not, he just uses polyrythyms and time displacement to make it sound that way. ok, i'm stopping now because i feel like a pretentious asshole..

Spiral out people...

[overdrawn]

Let us keep in mind that during the bridge ("to feel connected") part Danny is playing in 5/4 while Adam and Justin are playing in 6/8. That is an important distinction. If anyone wants specifice let me know.

[waXresilienT]

Whats with you and talking about your pep band drum dood?
That the secoind post ive seen by you saying pretty much exactly the same thing...

The thing that i found interesting about the 9, 8, 7 time signatures in Lateralus is that 987 is a number in the Fibonacci seqence which seems to have a lot to do with the song. Thanks to whoever pointed that out in one of the other threads.


Yeah, if you listen when Maynard firsts starts singing/speaking at the beginning of the song the syllables of the words match the fibonacci sequence perfectly. Black (1) And(1) White Are (2) All I See(3) In My Infancy(5) Red And Yellow Then Came To Be (8)...(then back down) Reaching Out To Me (5) Lets Me See (3)

[usefull idiot]

Yeah, if you listen when Maynard firsts starts singing/speaking at the beginning of the song the syllables of the words match the fibonacci sequence perfectly. Black (1) And(1) White Are (2) All I See(3) In My Infancy(5) Red And Yellow Then Came To Be (8)...(then back down) Reaching Out To Me (5) Lets Me See (3)

Yeah your right,and throughout the song it continues to follow the fibonacci sequence. In the second verse the syllables of each sentence are 13 , 8 , 5 , then 3 repectively. I'm not sure about the rest of the song yet but i bet it continues to use these kinds of patterns.
ps. thanks to every one who's added their thought's here, you've made me realise so much about this song that i'd never previosly realised.

[ndtool]

[QUOTE=you've made me realise so much about this song that i'd never previosly realised.[/QUOTE]

I know exactly what you mean. When my friend told me about the whole lateralus fibonachi connection, it was quite a revelation to go home and listen to it unfold in the song. Come to think fo it, I think that was the moment that Tool finally became my favorite band.

[adrenaline7]

Hopefully an easy way of explaining:

Intro: 4/4
Chorus: 3/4
Verse: 5/4
Interlude (between verse and chorus): Switches between 5/4 and 3/4
Guitar Solo (at 4:07): 3/4
After the verse ("Reaching out to embrace whatever may come" at 4:32): 4/4
The section (at 7:17): 3/4
Outro (at 8:36): Switches between 3/4 and 4/4 at some measures.

[timesig.net]

ok
its not that hard, and I am back here after a long time now so Ill make this quick
intro is in 4/4, based around triplet
the first measure of the heavy part, thechorus, is in 9/8

1 e 2 e 3 e 4 e 5 e 6 e 7 e 8 e 9 e
o o o o o o o o o o o o

the next measure is in 4/4 or 8/8 felt the same way with the last eighth note being the first of the next measure. So, given music theories great versatility, the song is easiest to be felt in 3/4 probably. However, if you are a drummer, then this will not be correct. Because the groove in the last measure would start one eighth note early, on (1e2e3e4e5e6e7e8) 1, making the previous measure a 7/8 measure in between a 9/8 and 8/8.
BY THE genius OF MATHEMATICS:
9+8+7=24, how many combinations can we come up with to equal twentyfour????
Simply put, if you are a drummer, it is 9/8/7(8) if you are a drummer then you should try to feel it in this timesig.
Oh
my
goodness
How can the chorus be in 3/4, feel it man. That would be 4 measures in there..... I don't think this is correct.
And yes 987 is an integer on the fibonacci chain. If you are having any trouble with this you should buy a calculator

[Machiavelli70]

For the chorus, I find it easiest to count it as 9 sets of 3/8 pulse. Easiest including also that that's the way it feels to me -- It could be divided 9, 8, 7 all over an eighth note, but sometimes that's a bit of overthinking regarding it. An example is -- if you have a 4/4 divided into a 5/8, 3/8 pulse, it's still easier to count it 4/4.

The big time signature anomaly I ran into was the hat (then with toms/snare) around 5:10. I -think- it's a 5/8 hat part over the 6/8 bass line. Then, when the drums come in, it's hold's the 5/8 hat pulse, but the drums' rhythm is 5/4 (for counting, the snare hit comes on 5). I counted it out a few times while I was waiting for a pizza (bad, slow service. I was late to class because of it), and I think it's right. I'm curious what you all think of this.

Postscript: I read that Maynard writes a lot of lyrics to the music post-compositionally. Perhaps the band wrote a fibonacci song (hence 987), and the lyrics were composed with the matching Sequence syllables afterwards?

[animate]

if you count out the measures in the chorus you will notice that the first measure is in 9 the next measure is in 8 and the final is in 7. and it repeats this patern in each chorus. it isn't difficult to know the other time signatures throughout the song if you just count them out.

[March The Scaffold]

The intro guitar part is in 4/4. No dounts at all about that.

The guitar riff after that is in 9/8, 8/8, 7/8 repeating.


The verse is in 5/8! The drums are at least I'm sure.


The breakdown part has the bass in 2/4, the guitar in 4/4, and the drums in 5/8.


A good way to figure out time sigs is to break them down as much as possible. Yeah, technically 6 measures of 4/4 is 24/4, but you can't go around and say you can play in 24/4 cuz you prolly can't. You would have to play a continuous rythm the whole measure and then repeat it which would be a BITCH in 24/4.

[Machiavelli70]

24/4 is ridiculous. Think of it in downbeats -- there isn't just one downbeat in all of that. And I miswrote earlier -- 8 measures of 3/8, not 9. When it comes to playing Lateralus, it's much easier to count it that way.

Oh, and let's stop saying "it's 9/8, 8/8, 7/8", because think that's been firmly established. I just say it's easier to count in 3/8s.

[newmoon2112]

It cannot be 3/8.It is 9,8, and 7.This is why...
If you count in 3,it would be
ONE,two,three,ONE,two,three
I capitalized the 1 because it is the down beat.
Count like this to the chorus...
ONE,two,three,four,five,six,seven,eight,nine,ONE,t wo,three,four,five,six,seven,eight,ONE,two,three,f our,five,six,seven.1 is the only downbeat.

[bennett]

I have a question for anyone familiar with music theory, especially the more complicated aspects:

It was said above that The Patient is in 5/4 time, but I suspect its in 10/8: according to my (rudimentary) knowledge of music theory, the eighth-notes in simple time (5/4?) should be grouped as 2-2-2-2-2. However the eighth-notes in The Patient are grouped as 3-3-3-2, which would suggest a "complex" time signature (10/8?) rather than a "simple" one. (Hopefully that made sense...) Could anyone tell me if that's right? And is that right about 5/4 being "simple"? etc...

Sorry if that was off topic, but no-one seems to know (care?)...

[bennett]

Back to Lateralus:
Consider two possible timesigs for the chorus: (8/8x3) or (9/8,8/8,7/8). At first glance, the former seems the more logical choice, but when you try it out, it doesn't fit. Only when you listen to it as "987" does it seem natural.

...

[Machiavelli70]

Well, aside from how it'd be written, I'm telling you it's easier to count in 3/8s when playing it. For certain -- I've tried it both ways.

[philosophomore]

Well, aside from how it'd be written, I'm telling you it's easier to count in 3/8s when playing it. For certain -- I've tried it both ways.

Except that the downbeat would fall on the 2nd count of the 2nd and 3rd measures and that's just weird man!! =)

Plus, the last time through the thing before it goes back to the verse time, that wouldn't work because it goes 9/8, 8/8, [8/8] so you couldn't count it that way. Well, you could, but the down beat of the verse would again be on the second count of the measure that you are mentally using.

[philosophomore]

I have a question for anyone familiar with music theory, especially the more complicated aspects:

It was said above that The Patient is in 5/4 time, but I suspect its in 10/8: according to my (rudimentary) knowledge of music theory, the eighth-notes in simple time (5/4?) should be grouped as 2-2-2-2-2. However the eighth-notes in The Patient are grouped as 3-3-3-2, which would suggest a "complex" time signature (10/8?) rather than a "simple" one. (Hopefully that made sense...) Could anyone tell me if that's right? And is that right about 5/4 being "simple"? etc...

Sorry if that was off topic, but no-one seems to know (care?)...

My knowledge of music theory derives only from 4yrs of high school drumline (snare), but if I were transcribing the song, I would write the part as a repeating pattern of a measure of 6/8 followed by 4/8 because this just feels more "right" with the melody. But it is completely arbitrary.

[Machiavelli70]

Except that the downbeat would fall on the 2nd count of the 2nd and 3rd measures and that's just weird man!! =)

It's called hemiola. Beethoven used it a lot. The odd thing in this is the hemiola is used in the counting over the music beat rather than the usual vice.

As far as the 10/8 goes, that may be the total pattern, but whether or not it's split depends upon how many downbeats you have. Theoretically you could split a 10/16 of the 5/8 part of Lateralus into 6 and 4 (3+3, 2+2), but it doesn't feel as smooth as just counting five eighth notes through (try it). The Grudge is the opposite case in the beginning -- to keep from changing time signatures later, you could write it as 5/4, but it's better off as 5/8 so an accent doesn't come on the "and" of two rather than a downbeat of another 5/8 measure.

[MclT]

Okay....I dont see what all the confusion is about the time signature in Latralus is. The very beggining part is, obviously in 4/4, the "chorus" if you will is one bar of 9/8, one bar of 8/8 and then one bar of 7/8, repeated. The "black and white are, all I see...." part is in 6/8. I am absolutely 100% sure of this. I wrote it out, listened over and over again, and I am absolutely posotive that this is the case. So the argument should end here.

Here is the "chorus" in tab form (well the bottom note anyway)
the "x"'s underneath represent 16th notes, and the tab notes line up to the subdivision of the beats

|0 0 x0 0 x555530|3 3 x3 3 x5530|3555 x5 3 1012|
|xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx |xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx |xxxxxxxxxxxxxx |

9/8 bar 8/8 bar 7/8 bar




oh crap, id didnt line up properly like it did when i wrote it

[aintsofar]

McIT, no way. Verse is in five-beat patterns. When the hats come in, listen to how many times they close in each loop of the toms part.

Time signatures == wearing curly white wigs.

And isn't the 5=6 part in the middle the most important rhythmwise?

[Machiavelli70]

Yeah it is. Hard as hell to play, too. Putting a 5/8 over a 6/8 is damned clever and I applaud them for keeping it together.

Time signatures == wearing berets

And FOR FUCK'S SAKE! WE ALREADY KNOW THAT IT'S 9, 8, 7 FOR THE FRIGGIN VERSE. GIVE IT A DAMNED REST. ANY MORE "INFORMATION" ON THAT IS A WASTE OF TEXT AND TIME AND FRANKLY QUITE OBNOXIOUS.

Okay, so I'm just hungry and grumpy, but still . . .

[haich]

The chorus is in 9/9 8/8 7/8, then the verse is in 10/8 or 5...

trying to learn this song at the moment in a band...absolutely mental

[Machiavelli70]

It's easier to learn than Schism.