forced religion

[goofyprosk8er]

I think that Opiate has to do with society forcing religion upon us. Priests can lie too, and fool us to their advantage.

[bdm56]

That is a very simplified version of the song. Completely true though IMO.

This is Tools most scarcastic song in my opinion. Anyone who is casually listening might think that Tool was a christian band spreading the word of christ.

Maynard plays the role of a preacher in this song. He is on his pulpit telling all of the power of God and the power that he has because he is doing Gods work. He is saying let me use you, let me think for you, let me control you for I know what is best.

In the last verse he switches point of view to somone who has been converted and has fallen for the preachers lies.

This song more than any other is what Tool is all about. This is the 'Think for yourself, Question authority' song. Other songs have dealt with the issue more in depth but this song just lays it out that you are being lied to, not just by preachers but by all manner of authority. You must rely on yourself and think for yourself and only then will you find truth.

[manifestcontent]

hey yeah i agree with you guys on the whole think for yourself question authority thing and how priests try to control us with their messages. so why do we listen to tool then? they are sending a message. we are soaking it in and believing every word they say. it's just different from the christian message so we believe it. don't get me wrong tool is my favorite band ever but that doesn't mean i'm going to listen and believe every word they say. i have my own thoughts and own ideas on how the world works and how religion effects us. i am a christian (and i know most of you tool fans are going to hate me for that) because that is what i choose to believe. i don't support televangelism or caltholocism or even splitting up the religion into denominations. i think for myself and i questions authority even if it is tool. let me ask you guys something. to those of you who are athiests, (and that is about 99.9% of tool fans out there) why? who told you to be athiest? who shoved down your throat that religion is a load of crap? and who bought it?

[bdm56]

I dont think anyone will hate you for being a christian as long as you came to that belief on your own terms and not because it was what you were told to believe. I also dont think that most Tool fans are atheists. I am not an atheist but I dont necassarily believe in God. And I do not believe everything that Tool says. I am in a constant search for truth and I leave my mind open to all possibilities and that is one of the things that Tool has taught me and for that I think they are the best band in the world. Tool does not force anything down your throat, the only thing they do is force you to think for yourself and not blindly follow authority. This message has had more of an impact on my life than any religion. Once again I do not worship this band and do not deny the possibility of there being a God or Gods but I think that if people in authority put more faith in our ability to think on our own like Tool does then this world would be a better place.

[k_j]

Originally posted by manifestcontent
so why do we listen to tool then? they are sending a message. we are soaking it in and believing every word they say. it's just different from the christian message so we believe it.

I believe in a higher level of consciousness that may be popularly referred to as a religion. I just haven't fully opened my eyes to see exactly what it is. the band does not "tell" us anything. if anything they just want you to open your mind to other possibilities. the message tool sends is that you should not have to be "told" anything. you should decide for yourself. believing and interpreting your meaning of what tool is supposedly telling you is completely up to you. it doesn't make either you or the band wrong.

[mdc244]

I agree with most of you that is in part about religions but I also find it to be sorta talking about the fans as well who follow tool blindly. When he says "We both want to rape you"

Just a thought.

[N1LucasFan]

I disagree to an extent manifestcontent,

TOOL is about making your own choices and judgements based on what you have seen, read, or heard from your own sources, not a preacher. Nor do I belive everything TOOL says or suggests blindly and accept it as truth, that would be hypocritcal of them and I. I agree with some points k_j and bdm56, very true.

- Matt

[Brokenelevator]

Manifest, I'm in your boat. I am also a Christian, but I have an absolute hatred for blind faith, hypocrisy, and many other things that Tool speaks out on. Tool is my favorite band; that doesn't mean that I feel compelled to agree with everything they say, but please remember that agreeing with something is not necessarily being compelled to agree. Don't get overzealous looking for conspiracies. All you do is chase yourself in circles, because you and your childhood are a conspiracy. Think about Hooker with a Penis. We ARE the man. Therefore if you go around disrespecting every opinion in the world just because you are afraid that somebody might "compel" you to believe something not necessarily true, all you do is disrespect yourself. You are a product of what other people have taught you, that's why it is important to question everything. That's a large part of Tool's message. But don't assume that just because you agree with something, that means that it must be a lie. People shove lies down our throats, however, they also shove truth into us as well. And as such, I think Maynard fits the role of Reverend very well--he does shove truth down people's throats.

I look at the song Opiate a lot differently than most people. To me Opiate feels almost like a prayer. It's a holy message. It's not just meant to be offensive. It strikes a chord. I hate hypocrisy, blind faith, as I mentioned, and this song resonates with me. To me, this song says, "If you choose to be ignorant, if you choose to follow blindly because that's the easy way, then you deserve what you get. If some priest fucking rapes your mind and impresses lies into you, you deserve it because that's what you asked for. "Ask and it will be given to you..."" The part that goes, "Jesus Christ, why don't you come save my life now? Open my eyes and blind me with your light now..." has a double entente for me. On one hand, it's obvious sarcasm, but I don't think they really meant it to be hatred towards Jesus himself; rather, hatred towards people who WANT to be blinded. On the other hand, since I am a Christian, sometimes it feels like a plea. Like, "God, will you please just save me from these fuckin' idiots?"

Another point: "My god's will becomes me, when he speaks, he speaks through me, he has needs like I do, we both want to rape you." It's interesting that he says "my god's will", not "God's will". That's just it. The god of the religious bigots and hypocrites is NOT the God of the Bible. They wouldn't recognize him. "Love, wisdom...wha? what? That doesn't sell...." The god of the people Tool speaks out on really DOES want to rape the people, of their freedoms, their will, and not to mention, their pockets. The religious rights movement is commercialized dogshit....It's bad when the Christians don't like the other Christians, you know?

That said, Opiate is a great song.

Not bad for a first post, I don't think....

[Clarity]

Originally posted by manifestcontent
let me ask you guys something. to those of you who are athiests, (and that is about 99.9% of tool fans out there) why? who told you to be athiest? who shoved down your throat that religion is a load of crap? and who bought it?

To be perfectly honest, as a general group athiests are athiests because church (Christian business-corp-churches being most guilty) and it's most oppressive followers (those who aren't oppresive are quite exempt) TRY to do the forcing down. It is quite backward to assume athiests were forced into not believing something because it is in the nature of athiesm to question. Unfortunately christianity and moral, human religion are generally the ones who do the ram-rodding (although many don't, God bless 'em) because it is in the biblical, fundimental nature of organized religion to shape, mold, and conform. So although it may seem unfair that Tool and athiests...decry organized religion, church and Christianity for its oppresive, "think FOR you" nature...and seem impervious to the same criticism....it is not athiests who are drawn, pulled into athiesm. They are forced out of religion because of the same rape you seem to think brought athiests to disbelieve. They (athiests) aren't spoonfed to be fat with skepticism. They refuse to take the spoon of religion, and become thin on belief.

So unfortunately that line of questioning was unbased, as it was Christianity that "forced (athiesm) down their throats"

[DeleteYourself]

Originally posted by Clarity
athiests are athiests because church (Christian business-corp-churches being most guilty) and it's most oppressive followers (those who aren't oppresive are quite exempt) TRY to do the forcing down.

im a prime example of this. i was raised to be a Christian. my dad forced to go through confirmation so to the church i am a confirmed christian. But after going through all that(unwilling) and dropped my belief in god and religion at a young age. I have seen how manipulative and decieving and hypocritical the church and those who follow are. I have seen priets denounce homosexuals to the whole congregation during service. i have seen teachers tell us how jesus said to love everyone, and then pass out pro-life pamflets and talk about how she excomunicated her own daughter for having an aboration after she was raped.

to the church i am a christian. but i'm really an strict atheist

[Gidget]

Originally posted by bdm56
That is a very simplified version of the song. Completely true

This song more than any other is what Tool is all about. This is the 'Think for yourself, Question authority' song. Other songs have dealt with the issue more in depth but this song just lays it out that you are being lied to, not just by preachers but by all manner of authority. You must rely on yourself and think for yourself and only then will you find truth.


However, what do you think about the opionions that argue Maynard is having a "changing of ideas about religion" on Lat.?

[Gidget]

Originally posted by N1LucasFan
I disagree to an extent manifestcontent,

TOOL is about making your own choices and judgements based on what you have seen, read, or heard from your own sources, not a preacher. Nor do I belive everything TOOL says or suggests blindly and accept it as truth, that would be hypocritcal of them and I. I agree with some points k_j and bdm56, very true.

- Matt

Good thought, but remember Maynard and the boys may believe in those things but don't forget about the music. Tool is about the music. However, do you think for yourself about those things because you want to or because you are told to by Tool?

[manifestcontent]

I'm sorry if it seemed like i was saying that tool were preachers and they are shoving thier beliefs down our throats. they aren't shoving. it's just that i am so sick of all these stupid fans that worship tool and think of them as a religion and that is exactly what tool is against. some fans follow tool blindly without thinking about what they believe first. i've talk to too many fans in tool chat rooms and i'd say about most of them are like that. they are being hypocritical in that they are doing exactly what their enemies (the christians heaven forbid!) are doing. i know its not tools fault for this, they don't want fans to worship them and follow blindly. they are merely giving us thoughts and ideas. But you see some fans don't take it that way. that is all i meant. i didn't mean to affend anyone.

[ragna16]

Originally posted by Gidget

However, what do you think about the opionions that argue Maynard is having a "changing of ideas about religion" on Lat.?

I doubt that tool is embracing organized religion, and one would have a trouble finding where he even talks of a god on the entire CD.

I also like the sarcastic tone. I played the thing in class once, rloud enough to hear (cuz class was over), and surrounded by 'devout' Christians noone even payed attention, and my friend once thought APC was a Christian band, because he heard Judith without listening to it.

[Clarity]

Originally posted by manifestcontent
i didn't mean to affend anyone.

Your views are as valid as anyone's on the board, at the very least. I, for one, was certainly not offended, just offering a contradictory viewpoint, as I know you did. I can only hope you weren't offended in turn. We agree that blind faith is the enemy, and whether it is Christians or Tool fans who are misguided, misguided is the category they both fall into. We agree with different resuslts, but agree in the end. Happy posting.

[ScarletRavenZer]

I am also both a Tool fan and a Christian. I admit that when I first heard Opiate I assumed it was a direct hit towards Jesus and felt pretty sad. After listening closer though, I got the message that told me it wasn't about him, it was about the people who try to pimp him off to those of us who are blind without direction. I found Jesus all on my own, no preacher or anything forced it on me.

One thing that made me look deeper into it was when he said in aenema "now don't just call me pessimist, try and read between the lines". I totally felt like that was right to me. I think thats why a lot of their songs have such shocking surface-meaning (what you think it's about the first time) such as jesus or anal sex. It requires those people who are shocked or offended to dig deeper.

[ShackledEidolon]

I take no offence to anyone having different views. Thats what makes the whole forum interesting. I must say that the questioning of spirituality is what Tool is all about. It is as others have said a demand that those that have never thought about what they believe in, must question and see what is True.

I don't know what the truth is. I am looking. I am more agnostic then anything else in the fact that I am searching and open to whatever I find. But if I can find flaws in a system then it proves to me that it isnt true. I can't believe in a religion simply out of fear of Hell or because I was brought up in that kind of mindset. However if after leaving it and learning about it I come to the conclusion that it is indeed true then I would accept it as such. I do not believe that Faith is an acceptable reason to believe...hence I don't feel that atheists views are any better. They base their reasoning on the faith that they are correct that nothing exists. Since Im not sure one way or the other I do not call myself an atheist. I think if nothing else Tool teaches tolerence for others that are searching honestly. Those that truely are looking. It doesn't matter what path you take so long as it is True to you and you are true to it. If divinity does exist then we should look for it and be sure it is what we think it is.

I would really be interested to see a poll of the religious preference of most tool fans...(no names) just numbers. I bet there would be a lot of spiritual individuals out there...mos tlikely more then atheists...just a guess.

And again there is nothing wrong with believing in something or not believing in it so long as your reasoning is sound

[KCh]

Opiate is about the abuse of children by priests to me. This may seem somewhat on the surface and lacking in depth, but I feel that the song makes several blatent statements about this and how, using Jesus as an excuse, these priests take advantage of children both sexually and mentally.

I know some of you may think I'm taking the lyrics a bit too seriously, but I always felt that Maynard was being very literal in this song and had no intention to 'hide meanings in plain sight'.

[GuitarNoyes6]

Im 15 and during the first 12 to 13 years of my life i was taught to believe in God and christianity i was made to go to a christian school and i thought to myself one day why does every christian believe in God and then i thought of a possible reason that if 2 people get married on a religious standpoint and have a kid they raise that kid to be a christian and all of that kids life he believes what his parents told him and so he passes it on to his kids etc. so i set out to find a reasoning for this life and is there really a higher power a quest im still searching for i think that anyone who believes in a religion because there parents tell them too is ignorant, you should believe because you set out to believe and find a truth for yourself. i have mixed emotions because if everyone you see on a daily basis believes in god you begin to succomb to their beliefs but i have read the bible many times due to my schooling and basically all it is, is a book about ethics and whats right and wrong, (also very violent) what would you do if somebody you have never seen only heard said to kill your son would you do it. and the only proof that there is a religion is in a book a book that has been proven that could have been written by an 8 year old back in the 17-1800's / another thing i wanna touch base on is if you have ever read the bible and read revelations you will read that 4 angels will sound horns at the four corners of the earth and what did everyone believe during the 17-1800's?

They believed that the earth was flat coincidence or is this just a f*cked up world changed because somebody wanted to right a book about morals and how to do right and wrong

Now i know some of my facts might not be completely accurate but this is only something i have pondered about for a couple of years now !!!!

I do believe in an inner self spirituality but the more i search the more im afraid to believe i really have a fear of believing or having faith in something i have never seen or even heard

[Microsoul]

I hate organized religion with a passion, because people should find their "God/s" or whatever for themselves. I just want to make it clear that I'm in no way defending organized religion.

"and the only proof that there is a religion is in a book a book that has been proven that could have been written by an 8 year old back in the 17-1800's"

*cough*

"what did everyone believe during the 17-1800's? ...They believed that the earth was flat"

Um...the majority of people knew the earth is round....just like today some people still believe the Earth is flat.

I just wanted you to know you got some facts wrong, its nothing personal so don't attack me. Sorry......

[GuitarNoyes6]

It's cool more knowledge for my feeble mind but i always heard that the back in those days that everyone thought that the earth was flat thats why people didnt wanna venture out cuz they were afraid that they would fall of the edge

and a misprint i typed the kid was supposed to be 18 years old ... Sorry bout that

[Ace Starflyer]

Originally posted by Microsoul
I hate organized religion with a passion, because people should find their "God/s" or whatever for themselves....

"what did everyone believe during the 17-1800's? ...They believed that the earth was flat"

Um...the majority of people knew the earth is round....just like today some people still believe the Earth is flat.


First, how is your assertion that people must ought to find their truth for themselves any less biased than saying that truth can only be found in established religion? It's a logical fallicy to assume one of these statements is true arbitrarily and use "truth" that to debase the other statement. I have no problem with organized religion per se... if you thought you had truth then wouldn't you want to tell people about it? And what better way to get the word out than by organizing for maximum effectiveness? I don't, however, like the effects of organized religion: complacency, mindlessness, and sheep-like behavior. The christian alalogy of sheep and a shepard always bugged me, even when i was little.

Also, I'm very curious as to a source for backing up saying that people before columbus knew the earth was round. Of all people, sailors would have believed in the sherical nature of the planet, and yet they were the ones most affected by the thought of a flat earth (IE sailing off the edge). Factual disputes notwithstanding, I think the point of bringing it up was to illustrate that people don't like new, foreign, different ideas that are contrary to their own. Before Galilleo (dang... spelling?), people thought the sun went around the earth, and within one and a half centuries ago, astronomists thought that, of course, the sun was at the center of the galazy. We naturally assume our correctness, and that just isn't the best way to find truth.

OK, that said, it seems that there are a few religous autobiographies here, so i'll join the ranks. I was a christian till about 4 years ago, when i started to realize the contradictions of the bible and, even more evident, the religion. I closed my eyes to pray with the congregation ( i was baptist), and a thought hit me that what i was doing seemed an awful lot like talking to myself, and i realized that this is what i easily could be doing. I opened my eyes, looked around, and felt really stupid for being in the situation i found myself in. 4 years later, I'm trying to find out why i really think the christian religion is wrong, something a bit more substantive than philosophical arguments, although those are pretty damn strong. To contribute to the TOOL fan religions poll, i'm agnostic, leaning towards theist, a huge TOOL fan of mine is deist (believes in a clockmaker god, for those who don't know what deism is), and another TOOL freak friend is atheist. My brother, a hard-core christian, doesn't like TOOL.

[paraflux]

Brokenelevator, Manifest Content, other christian tool fans.
I saw your posts on the first page and would like to say that I am an ex-christian. I do not hate Christians, but I do reserve a small portion of bitterness towards the religion, because I had to live it for 18 years. Now, you said tool fans will hate you because you are a christian. That would go against what they say. Anger is constructive, hatred is not. And also I do not think 99.9 percent of Tool fans are atheist. Atheists still have beliefs, and the beliefs include the lack of God or higher power. What Tool tries, for the most part, to get across is that we can create our own ways of thought that do not include the use of beliefs. "Believe in Nothing," is written on the inside of one of the albums. For decades people believed that the Earth was flat. That was their truth, that the Earth was flat. When people tried to convince the world that the Earth was not flat, and was not the center of the universe, they were killed, jailed, and otherwise persecuted. All in the name of God. Now, of course, the prevention of the truth escaping out into the public is better handled by the church and other figures, but the fact remains that truth changes, like all other things. We are just more easily controlled if we don't know what the new truth is. So beliefs block progression. I had to tear down all of mine and rebuild my thought processes in one night because of AEnima. It was the most amazing experience I have ever undergone. Elective Surgery.

And for the record, I do not think Opiate is a Jesus-bashing song. It bashes the idea of Jesus that religious people have, the idea of God that they have, and the act of following a faith blindly because its easier to not think for yourself.