Whenever I hear these songs and think about them being one song, i always think that Triad doesn't go along at all with Disposition and Reflection. I mean, disposition is a nice little number with the "watch the weather change..." and so on. Then it gets to reflection, and that is a long, drawn out climatic song. I think after listening all the way through reflection, and then having triad start, triad doesn't go with it. does anyone else feel this way?
another idea i had was that disp and refl are in 4/4 time and about the same tempo. triad comes in and, hence the name, is in 3/4. that's another reason i don't think they go together although i've heard plenty of songs that go from 4/4/ to 3/4 and back again. but i just thought that was odd (there's nothing wrong with being odd though)...
and lastly, if i were tool, which i'm not, and i wrote all this and wanted it to be one song, i'd put either disp or triad first and reflection last. after all, shouldn't the song titled "reflection" be the song reflecting back on the song or even the entire album? this is just what i think...
__________________ Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines.
For the longest time after I bought the album, I had the CD in my car but not the packaging, so I knew that 3 songs went together, I just forgot which ones. I always thought it was Lateralus/Disposition/Reflection, and to this day I still think those 3 work better as a trilogy. Disposition needs to be a middle part. I just don't like a mellow track like that leading off, and Reflection seems more like a conclusion itself. All you have to do is read the lyrics. Triad doesn't even have lyrics. I think it's a great song, but I don't see where it fits in with the other 2 songs. Lyrically, I think Lateralus is a perfect fit.
Also, the "watch the weather change" line of Disposition makes me think of it as representing a transitional period. Lateralus seems to be the person realizing what life is about, Disposition is him going through the transition of how he used to live and how he will live in the future, and Reflection is looking back and knowing it was the right choice to "crucify the ego" aka slay his former self and live the way he wants to rather than "pine away".
Last edited by skywarp94; 02-06-2003 at 12:21 PM..
i agree that Triad dosnt really go with disp/refl, it just sounds alittle too harsh to be apart of the trio, but again, it's a good finish(if u dont count the last track) and leads to some serious thinking and after taste, actually if you play traid and go back to grudge and start the album again it actually sounds more collective.
another things that tick&leech and lateralus should have something in between it, cuz both the songs are so strong that you really need a break in between in order to really listen to both the songs.
yes dispostion refection and triad as a whole might sound like they don't go together but if you look at it as maynard "killing his ego" and moving onto another stage in life or go as far as to say evolving into 46 & 2 (yes thats the name of a song but hopfully you guys know the scientific meaning behind it) triad fits in perfectly with those two and the last track because the whole "killing the ego" theory you can't have harmony without some chaos.....but thats just me
i agree with skywarp that it seems like lateralus/disposition/reflection seems to fit better than with triad. after the somewhat epic conclusion of lateralus, when disposition comes in, it just seems soothing and fits perfectly. and its obvious that reflection and disposition are connected but i don't really see where triad comes from. it's an awsome song dont get me wrong but i dont see the connection either musicaly or in meaning.
Yep, Triad don't go that well with disp/refl but Lateralus could fit better. Maybe there's some deeper meaning linking those songs but I can't figure it out. Or maybe Triad was just a ending solo for the whole piece so it couldn't be separated anymore. Well, whatever it is, I'm happy for this...
Yea thats cool i can understand how triad don't fit in to well but it still has an intro part (ie. as reflection ends triad fades in) maybe it doesn't have to be this big revelation but it could be from just simple thinking like it's a 3 part song that was supposed to be one if you look at the back of the lateralus cover it's linked together to be one song but i guess no one noticed that but me
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I read somewhere that tool wanted to fit more music on the album (was it the faq where i read it?) but it didn't fit on the disc. So, maybe they just didn't have the track time left to make one song of those 3 (they needed extra time for transitions...) and decided to make 3 seperate songs of them.
Queen once did it the other way around, 'Bohemean Rapsody' is a mix of 4 songs orso...
I kind of agree with omnipresent20 in the sense that I view Triad as a new era, or a new way of thinking. Like after the whole story has been told, and we've killed our ego and such, we move on to the next day, to the next stage of life, and get a taste of what's to come.
Everytime I listen to Triad I think a little bit differently; that's why it's so great that it has no lyrics... it lets you ponder for yourself about what just happened...
__________________ "...life is only a dream, and we are an imagination of outsevles. Here's Tom with the weather..."
Originally posted by omnipresent20 yes dispostion refection and triad as a whole might sound like they don't go together but if you look at it as maynard "killing his ego" and moving onto another stage in life or go as far as to say evolving into 46 & 2 (yes thats the name of a song but hopfully you guys know the scientific meaning behind it) triad fits in perfectly with those two and the last track because the whole "killing the ego" theory you can't have harmony without some chaos.....but thats just me
Hello,
i would have to agree. You/we are evolving into the next/Third consciousness level, Christ Consciousness, 46x2.....we are presently at the second level 44x2....So all three songs are about letting go of emotion-spiritual, mental, and physical bodies. Disposition is the tansferring of oneselfs mental physical properties..Refelction deals with the spiritual/emotive body, ex killing/crucifing the ego with the intent of achieving spiritual enlightenment...Triad is the movement/transformation of all three..listen to the beginning. The drums are a tribal/voodooish beat representing passage/sacrifice of ones oldself to the new self..Thats why it is so aggresive in comparison to the other two. Probably not a easy 'ride' Hidden song..Enochian for the voice of god..God turns out to be an .....?????
Maynard explained the meaning of Reflection in an interview that can be found in the Article section. Basically, he said that we, in relation to information and knowledge, are like the moon and the light it reflects from the sun. I gotta admit though, I got an evolution sort of thing from the entire piece, too.
I didn't think that Triad fit into the whole picture either, but then I watched it live. It feels more like a single unit when they play it live.
__________________ I've got that Eve's Bayou sense of touch so I fought/ to touch every hand of a fan and read their thoughts/ Battered wives...molested children/ roaches on the floor, rats in the ceilin....
I agree that the correct set is Lateralus / Disposition / Reflection, with Triad being something of an epilogue or postscript or summary to the culmination of the preceding three.
As well as Lad / Dis / Ref fit together musically they also fit thematically.
With all of Lateralus' enthusiasm to evolve and extend, dispostion is a welcome blank - the calm after the storm, a peaceful rest after a big effort, a new beginning point (mention anything - I'm blank). Reflection as stated above is a nice little metaphor for ego using the moon.
Lateralus is conscious effort and focus, Reflection is meditation, Reflection is renewed effort. Triad brings them together aftwerwards.
Anyway, that's my malformed take on it ... its getting very late here. ;)
Triad was not originally supposed to go together with Disposition/Reflection. The band had previously explained that D/R were written as one piece and Triad was written separately. They decided to tack it on the end of Reflection because they thought it fit together well with the other songs. Being the third song it is simply called Triad. Thematically it has nothing to do with the others. I really do think its position on the albumn is perfect. The transition from Reflection to Triad flows very nicely, especially live.
i would have to agree. You/we are evolving into the next/Third consciousness level, Christ Consciousness, 46x2.....we are presently at the second level 44x2....So all three songs are about letting go of emotion-spiritual, mental, and physical bodies. Disposition is the tansferring of oneselfs mental physical properties..Refelction deals with the spiritual/emotive body, ex killing/crucifing the ego with the intent of achieving spiritual enlightenment...Triad is the movement/transformation of all three..listen to the beginning. The drums are a tribal/voodooish beat representing passage/sacrifice of ones oldself to the new self..Thats why it is so aggresive in comparison to the other two. Probably not a easy 'ride' Hidden song..Enochian for the voice of god..God turns out to be an .....?????
pete
Going along with the idea of 46 and 2 and the whole Merkaba Techniquies that 46 and 2 relate to, based on what i have studied it seems that learning to ascend is easy at first and you see many rapid changes (Disposition) but after you learn so much it is very hard and so few actually reach enlightenment while only in the 3rd consciencness, because of all the evil trying to hold you back therefore it sems very long and dragged out (Reflection), Triad seems very spiritual almost like he's finally reached enlightenment, specially at the begining of the song, i just imagine a giant city and maynard gawking in awe. I think Maynard pretty much tells you about the entire story with "Watch the weather change" each song seems like a season. Like watching the changes could resemble the transition between Winter and Spring, Reflection definetly has a desert feel to it with that one Snaker charmer type pipe they play, and Triad could seem like fall, where things come to an end. I am sorry if this sounds confusing cause i think i jumped around a lot but thats just my take on the trilogy.
Location: the house with the red door... now red was your colour
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together in thought...
I posted ages ago a long reason why I thought Disp/Refl/Triad go together, and to cut the long story short the theme operated around Disp= Birth of the thought, Refl= Life/analysis of the thought, Triad= Death/conclusion of the thought...
I won't say much more, so sorry if it's all stated pretty briefly and controversially, but if you want to develop a spirited rebutal feel free to read my original post from last Nov/Dec some time and base your comebacks on that...
After all, I'm happy to listen to why people disagree with me...
__________________ When the movie is over...
... and the movie goers have left en masse, the only sound you hear is the bang of chairs returning to their upright position .
I agree, the feeling of this song doesnt really "meld" with the previous tracks like most of the others do. Still, it is like a bit of a climax of finale, and it defiately belongs at the end.
One thing of note is that it works in a different sense. If you listen to the album in the spiral pattern (ie. it comes after The Grudge) it fits almost perfectly. Try it. You might like it...
I posted ages ago a long reason why I thought Disp/Refl/Triad go together, and to cut the long story short the theme operated around Disp= Birth of the thought, Refl= Life/analysis of the thought, Triad= Death/conclusion of the thought...
I won't say much more, so sorry if it's all stated pretty briefly and controversially, but if you want to develop a spirited rebutal feel free to read my original post from last Nov/Dec some time and base your comebacks on that...
After all, I'm happy to listen to why people disagree with me...
Nice one. Whoever said that Triad was an epilogue kind of had the right idea as well
I think this piece as a whole reflects civilization (more modern). I mean, Disposition to me means blissful ignorance, simple thinking. Reflection represents society discovering itself and seeing itself as it should...sort of becoming introspective and saying "What the hell are we working for?" or "Why are we fighting?". Then Triad represents the chaotic change, and evolution. I read an article where Maynard said that mankind should go through painful and hostile change. But he said that he had faith in humanity to pull through. Just a thought I had after reading the birth/life/death thing.
I posted ages ago a long reason why I thought Disp/Refl/Triad go together, and to cut the long story short the theme operated around Disp= Birth of the thought, Refl= Life/analysis of the thought, Triad= Death/conclusion of the thought...
...
One quick question, that is if you read this, what brought you to believe Triad equated to death or the 'conclusion of the thought'?
Just curious.
One thought for ya. Perhaps Triad is the first song.
Whoa...you just gave me a whole new perspective into D/R/T, or is it T/R/D? Now that I think about it that very much makes sense. Shit, their goes all my theories!
First off, I understand why some of you think L/D/R go together. I think these songs sound very good in this order. They sound like they fit. But I know in meaning and they don't.
Alot of you think Triad dosn't sound like it fits. It does, but it also dosn't. If I had to describe Triad with adjectives it would be alien and mechanical. I'll get to alien later. It fades in and sounds far away and then draws near with a very precise sound. Very rhythmic. And then ends in a quiet bang and then nothing. The song also sounds like nothing else on the album. This is the only song in which Adam Jones does a feedback-like solo. I understand why some people think it is out of place.
I think DSL's and neo_taboolie's theories go together but I want to throw in my theory with them. I think also of Disposition as a beginning and a simpler time (perhaps precivilization). I think of Reflection as a present day conflict in the form of a being who finds itself weak and pines away into a dark place.
This being is told secrets from the moon and then is full of light (information, see quote), is no longer afraid, wants nothing to do with his own narcissism, and crucifies his ego (stops thinking about his self and tries to do something before it is too late).
In a article Maynard J Keenan says (I believe there are some crucial typos in this article), "If you look at the cycles of the moon, it starts as a thin crescent and then gradually waxes and becomes full; then i gradually wanes back into another crescent and then is gone. The moon reflects sunlight like humans reflect information. We wax and wane and when we become full moons, are ego's are full. We think we have this knowledge when in fact, the information we have his pure. And it reflects or shines off of
us, is something we take credit for as though the moon could
take credit for the light it reflects from the sun. We have to
understand that we are ego-less just as the moon is without
light. It and we, are simply reflectors. The ego is not
respondsible for the information."
In the same article on the subject of Jerk-Off he also says, "Information itself is pure. Take a knife, for example. You can use it to cut up vegetables, meat, butter your bread, etc. Or you can use it as a weapon."
This being is full of information and must use it quickly before he starts to wane and pines away and loses the information. I think this story could be a metaphor in a struggle between life and death of humanity. This is the sketchy part of my theory. Alot of you think of Triad as an epilogue or a climax and I agree. I said how Triad sounds alien and not at all like the rest of the album. I think Triad could be a manifestation of a ultimate and supreme power that could bring about a hostile intention or a brand new evolution. And I think Reflection is Humanities last chance to survive. Faaip de Oiad is what made me believe this. I heard thar Faaip de Oiad means the "voice of god" and is it a coincidence that Faaip de Oiad is about an alien take-over?
In the movie Dogma (stupid movie but kind of informative on religion) someone mentions that one cannot hear god because his voice would crush you with one sound. In a nut shell it could mean aliens have come to kill us. Or I got it backwards and god is trying to kill us. If you believe this, by the end of Triad who do you think won?
Disposition is a simple beginning, Reflection is an ultimate struggle, Triad is an ending, and Faaip de Oiad presents an idea. Sounds alright to me but I could be wrong. There is one thing that I didn't mention. Look up the Myth of Echo and Narcissus, Or look up Narcissus in the dictionary. It ties into Reflection.
Thank you for reading my long opinion.
One idea that I really didn't clarify earlier is that perhaps Triad is the "begining" literally.
"Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters".
Triad, the trinity as is a common motif if many different belief systems around the world.
Perhaps Triad is the first song on Lateralus. I have a pretty long winded explaination as to how I arrived at this theory but it is worth exploring.
Triad(12) + The Grudge(1), Ticks and Leaches(8) + Schism(5), The Patient(3) + Disposition(10), Reflection(11) + Eon Blue Apocolypse(2), Parabol(6) + Parabola(7), Mantra(4) + Lateralus(9), and lastly Faaip de Oaid(13)
Triad is the beginning, as in the Triad that was around when there was nothing. If you play these songs in this sequence at least with Triad as song 1# and The Grudge as song 2# you will notice a long pause between these two songs. Elapsed time. I think it has meaning but who am I to say I'm a little wack. Also notice how Triad fades in as if it were already playing or if it had always been playing; eternal???
Another thing to take note of is the significance of three. The Body, ie physical plane, The mind, projection of self and ego, and the Ethereal, ie the spirit and the Minds eye; The Eye of Horus.
Look at the insert in the Lateralus and the guy in there was drawn in 3 transparent aspects. Check it out.
Perhaps the collective, Oversoul, which is made up of all those eyes, 3rd eye, is a macrocosim of the smaller manifestation of the Triad. Perhaps we are the creators as "I" and as "we"? Or at least maybe thats what Tool is suggesting. Who knows.
I already posted on the thoughts board, just in case you missed it, here is a link to help out with some of the meanings that the stronger physically and mental tool fans could use.
D/R/T reminds me of some indian ragas that are structured the same way :
- a slow improvised introduction (disposition)
- the main theme and variations around it (reflection)
- a fast and conclusive improvisation, which usually begins with a tabla solo (Triad, which has a drum solo in the lives version).
The structure is the same, so it's possible that Tool listened to some ragas and use the same kind of structure (especially with the place of the drum solo... which is the same as the usual place of the tabla solo (in the last part before the conclusive climax), and we know how much Danny loves tablas...). Just my two cents
It seems that all of you have forgetten about balance. Everything needs to be balanced, or so I believe, and this Triad is a perfect represtation of that balance. Lyrically, musically, and emotionally it is perfect (as is all art). It begins with very few lyrics in Dispostion, and a softer musical approach. Reflection is the core, the lengthy, wordy, neutral harmony between the two opposing tracks. Disposition and Triad lie in the face of each other, but compliment each other as well. As for the one who said that it changes to 3/4 in Triad, you should brush up on your musical studies. Those are simply triplets.
word to etamina. i've actually always thought that it fits perfectly with the prior two tracks. it is the climax for the peice. a damn good climax. when i hear this track, i just wanna rock out 'till i am blue in the face. perhaps that is what it is for. this track has a wonderful feel to it.
As for the one who said that it changes to 3/4 in Triad, you should brush up on your musical studies. Those are simply triplets.
No these aren't triplets... you can count it 3/8, 6/8, a fast 3/4 (not very accurate...), but there isn't any 4/4 or 2/4 around here, and it would be pretty useless to count it in triplets (triplets only exist compared to another unit... if there is a division in eighth notes like this one : 1 2 1 2 1 2 3 1 2, there is a triplet, but if there is just 1 2 3 1 2 3 during all the song, it's not a triplet, it's ternary...). Plus there is a polyrythm 6/8 over 3/4 during the bridge. It's clearly ternary, not a 4/4 with triplets (or 3/4 with triplets or whatever you want...).
Re: is it just me or does triad not go with disp/ref
Okay, let me just start this by saying that I take as much of my beliefs, my thoughts about TOOL from what the members have said in interviews or in posts on their various web sites.
allllright...here goes : if you look at the names of the last three songs : Disposition, Reflection, and Triad, and you take their deffinitions into account (because I occurs to me that TOOL takes words very seriously. Look back at some of their earlier songs' titles, you should see what I mean), you should come up with why the songs were placed where they were, and played the way they are. Disposition is basically the way something seems, the way it looks. I don't have a dictionary at hand at the moment, or I would tell you what Webster says it means. A reflection, as in a mirror, is an image of something cast back at itself, or it could be looking back on something, like reflecting on your childhood. Triad, well, a triad is a three-some, a trilogy, a tying together of three things. Would TOOL, would MJK name these songs and put them in this order if they didn't fit that way to the band? I don't think so. These guys know, and have access to so much more than the average listener of their music, and most of us, I would venture to say. So they could know exactly the spirirtual effects these songs would have on a person hearing them, or using them. In fact if you read Danny's bio on Toolband.com, he suggests that we read a book to better protect ourselves, to better understand these songs.
Well, anyway, now that I've gotten all long winded, I can say that I feel very satisfied when I hear D/R/T in that order. I feel that it helps if you make it L/D/R/T, but then you wouldn't have a trilogy, would you?
Disposition ...well, MJK uses the "Watch the weather change" and "Mention this to me" ...phrases to set up a dispostion, a quality of "I'm lost, someone show me where I am, and how to grow," so that when he comes in with the desperation(?) factor in Reflection, it seems all that more real, that more desperate. Like if he doesn't step up soon, he's going to as he says "hide away" (Could he mean he's going to die? I don't know...although a lot of people see Triad as a death, sort of, so maybe). Dispostion is almost like a Prelude to the rebirthing that takes place in Reflection. I personally think that MJK may have been using this song as a way to begin, as it were, the meditative process; to start the breathing process needed to access his Merkaba. Once accessed, all he needs to do now is reflect on himself. I don't know how many of you have attained this, or even attempted it, but once the Merkaba is full and spinning, one is supposed to think thoughts of love, of kindness, to reflect on oneself.
Reflection is very long, as we all should know, and as has been stated before, it has a very mantra like quality. MJK starts off the journey in this song by using some very cryptic words. Danny Carey once said in an interview that their songs are written in a Lunar Magick based format...so that's where the Moon as the Confidant comes to play. MJK uses the words to set up a "Reflection" for his surrondings, for himself, if you will.
And that's where Triad starts in. I like the idea that it fades in like it had always been playing and will never stop. I like that. My compliments to the genius that came up with it. I think that Triad is MJK in that next level, that next dimension, as it were, and there are no words needed. The music tells it all. Now, I have never seen TOOL live, I'll admit it, and it burns like flames, BUT, I have seen hundreds of pictures of them live, and the best I've seen, the ones I'm going to use for reference are on www.toolband.de There are pictures where MJK is holding some kind of stringed instrument...and I would venture to say he's playing it. Now I don't know if it's a guitar, but I would say that at the point when he's playing it, it's probobly during Triad, when words can't describe 46&2, so he plays along with the boys.
Well, I could be all wrong with this, and I may even have left out some of my thoughts, making this hollow, but that's how I see it...and I think, maybe, just maybe, some of us are taking the numbers thing TOO seriously. I read an interview with Danny where he said that The Grudge was written first and Triad was written last, and most of the songs in between were written where they are on the cd...so I don't think that numbers played a really big part in choosing...I could be wrong. I'll just have to ask him someday.
__________________ Public education; mind control for the masses.
Organized religion; brainwash for the soul.
National government; forced morality for the people.
A truly great mind is one that thinks for itself.
Last edited by Skinshifter01; 01-19-2004 at 06:36 PM..
Re: is it just me or does triad not go with disp/ref
Well of course, all diction of TOOL songs is usually a deeper meaning...whether it's the words in the songs, or the names of the songs.
__________________ l don't want to be alone again today...
Hold me close and together we'll pray
That this moment never fades away...
Fade away, fade away, like any other day.
yes dispostion refection and triad as a whole might sound like they don't go together but if you look at it as maynard "killing his ego" and moving onto another stage in life or go as far as to say evolving into 46 & 2 (yes thats the name of a song but hopfully you guys know the scientific meaning behind it) triad fits in perfectly with those two and the last track because the whole "killing the ego" theory you can't have harmony without some chaos.....but thats just me
Yeah i was gonna reply with pretty much the same response lol
In short you have a supporter of your theory :)
Re: is it just me or does triad not go with disp/ref
Quote:
Originally Posted by skywarp94
For the longest time after I bought the album, I had the CD in my car but not the packaging, so I knew that 3 songs went together, I just forgot which ones. I always thought it was Lateralus/Disposition/Reflection, and to this day I still think those 3 work better as a trilogy. Disposition needs to be a middle part. I just don't like a mellow track like that leading off, and Reflection seems more like a conclusion itself. All you have to do is read the lyrics. Triad doesn't even have lyrics. I think it's a great song, but I don't see where it fits in with the other 2 songs. Lyrically, I think Lateralus is a perfect fit.
Great opinion... but you make it sound like Disposition isn't very good of a song
:(... I think it'd make a great transition... I think maybe it should be in this sequence: Triad, Lateralus, Disposition, Reflection
Last edited by ÆnimaticEnigma; 04-11-2004 at 05:33 PM..
Re: is it just me or does triad not go with disp/ref
i think triad goes with the trilogy...it's hard to prove or disprove a song's relevance when it has no lyrics. lyrics tend to be the thing that everyone comes together on the most. but anyhow,
just because a song is heavy or loud doesn't necessarily bring a negative connotation. For example, the end of lateralus is probably the most simple, heaviest part of perhaps the whole cd. this very basic driving 6/4 time, the drum part is only alternating from the hihat to the cymbal crashes while the guitar and bass are playing what sounds to be some slides or basic chords...this part of lateralus is a very heavy sound instramentally, yet the lyrics are very positive and inspiring, speaking of how "we may just go where no one's been..."
this goes for triad, in my opinion, because, although heavy, could be taken as an extremely positive celebration of this 'reflection', if you will.. two beautiful songs, Disposition and Reflection, rich with self-realization and positivity, and then you have this powerful song at the end, Triad. Would you like Tool any other way? I wanna hear Triad loud and clear and be saying to myself "what maynard was saying in disposition and reflection is totally true and awesome, Triad is just a celebration of it."
Re: is it just me or does triad not go with disp/ref
That's true...but you have to go with the drum beats of mid-song to notice it's not together.
__________________ l don't want to be alone again today...
Hold me close and together we'll pray
That this moment never fades away...
Fade away, fade away, like any other day.
