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hushypushy's Avatar hushypushy
10-04-2006, 01:36 PM

I'd like to do two things with this post. First, I'd like to prove those folks right who say that there is a ton of clipping in 10,000 Days. Second, I'd like to prove those folks right who say there is no clipping in 10,000 Days. How is that possible? I'll explain at the end.

First, let's take a look at a wav. How about the title track?

10,000 Days

When you see the wave making that "plateau", that's when it's exceeding where it should be. Just for an example, here are some quick examples of what it SHOULD look like (not blown out).

Terrible Lie by NIN, 1989

piano solo by Horowitz

Money by Pink Floyd (MFSL version)

Now, what does all that mean, besides the fact that 10,000 Days (and Ænima too) are way loud? Your CD player/computer/whatever you listen on will handle clipping in two main ways (this is the part where I'll prove both camps correct):

1. It attempts to play this information, and the sound clips or distorts. It can be easily hidden because the sound that's distorted is already distorted. Guitar distortion is made by increasing the amplitude to induce clipping in the signal. Some players will attempt to play this information, and in turn, your music comes out distorted.
2. It ignores this information. Some devices will simply ignore these sounds. It's not what you DO hear, it's what you DON'T hear. It literally ignores that chunk of sound, so you're missing out on something.

There's also the variable of people's hearing and what devices. I don't hear any distortion in 10,000 Days on my home theater, my computer speakers, or in my car, but i DO hear it (unfortunately) on my headphones. But something that's undeniable (from just looking at the wav) is that the "loudness war" is getting out of control. There is no reason that huge chunks should peak that high. No album needs to be that loud! Check out BYOB by System of a Down. Holy crap!

And now because I'm so nice, you don't have to move a muscle and you can look at every 10,000 Days song's waveform. Of course, you can easily do this on your own computer with a variety programs.

Vicarious

Jambi

Wings for Marie

10,000 Days

The Pot

Lipan Conjuring

Lost Keys

Rosetta Stoned

Intension

Right in Two

Viginti Tres

It's really sad that these days, albums are being made for the lowest common denominator, the crappy low-fi boombox or car speakers. Louder is better is the common mantra. I do not believe this is Baressi's fault--I blame Volcano. No professional sound musician in his right mind is going to prefer that his work is compressed like this! But the record labels, anxious to make money and get ahead in this positive feedback loop of loudness demands, will push for this. I doubt Tool or even Baressi wanted the album to turn out like this. But, whatever. I'm hoping that some kind of "director's cut", that magical 96khz/24bit master that Baressi claims is lying around somewhere will eventually see the light of day, maybe a bit quieter with a bit more dynamic range...Seriously, Wings for Marie (both songs) are destroyed for me due to lack of dynamic range. But that is a story for another thread ;)
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Last edited by hushypushy; 10-04-2006 at 03:15 PM..
Old 10-04-2006, 01:36 PM   #1
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10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

I'd like to do two things with this post. First, I'd like to prove those folks right who say that there is a ton of clipping in 10,000 Days. Second, I'd like to prove those folks right who say there is no clipping in 10,000 Days. How is that possible? I'll explain at the end.

First, let's take a look at a wav. How about the title track?

10,000 Days

When you see the wave making that "plateau", that's when it's exceeding where it should be. Just for an example, here are some quick examples of what it SHOULD look like (not blown out).

Terrible Lie by NIN, 1989

piano solo by Horowitz

Money by Pink Floyd (MFSL version)

Now, what does all that mean, besides the fact that 10,000 Days (and Ænima too) are way loud? Your CD player/computer/whatever you listen on will handle clipping in two main ways (this is the part where I'll prove both camps correct):

1. It attempts to play this information, and the sound clips or distorts. It can be easily hidden because the sound that's distorted is already distorted. Guitar distortion is made by increasing the amplitude to induce clipping in the signal. Some players will attempt to play this information, and in turn, your music comes out distorted.
2. It ignores this information. Some devices will simply ignore these sounds. It's not what you DO hear, it's what you DON'T hear. It literally ignores that chunk of sound, so you're missing out on something.

There's also the variable of people's hearing and what devices. I don't hear any distortion in 10,000 Days on my home theater, my computer speakers, or in my car, but i DO hear it (unfortunately) on my headphones. But something that's undeniable (from just looking at the wav) is that the "loudness war" is getting out of control. There is no reason that huge chunks should peak that high. No album needs to be that loud! Check out BYOB by System of a Down. Holy crap!

And now because I'm so nice, you don't have to move a muscle and you can look at every 10,000 Days song's waveform. Of course, you can easily do this on your own computer with a variety programs.

Vicarious

Jambi

Wings for Marie

10,000 Days

The Pot

Lipan Conjuring

Lost Keys

Rosetta Stoned

Intension

Right in Two

Viginti Tres

It's really sad that these days, albums are being made for the lowest common denominator, the crappy low-fi boombox or car speakers. Louder is better is the common mantra. I do not believe this is Baressi's fault--I blame Volcano. No professional sound musician in his right mind is going to prefer that his work is compressed like this! But the record labels, anxious to make money and get ahead in this positive feedback loop of loudness demands, will push for this. I doubt Tool or even Baressi wanted the album to turn out like this. But, whatever. I'm hoping that some kind of "director's cut", that magical 96khz/24bit master that Baressi claims is lying around somewhere will eventually see the light of day, maybe a bit quieter with a bit more dynamic range...Seriously, Wings for Marie (both songs) are destroyed for me due to lack of dynamic range. But that is a story for another thread ;)
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Last edited by hushypushy; 10-04-2006 at 03:15 PM..
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slamminsalmon's Avatar slamminsalmon
10-04-2006, 01:45 PM

great post, but you honestly think the band members would knowingly allow the producers to knock down the quality of the final recording?

they have to take credit for this "mistake", because they have made a big fuss in the past about having total creative control. as a sound enthusiast myself i understand where you are coming from. I too have noticed that i never know wut a tool album will sound like on a new sound system. imo i like it tho.

and are all these wav's taken directly from the cd themselves?
Old 10-04-2006, 01:45 PM   #2
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Re: 10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

great post, but you honestly think the band members would knowingly allow the producers to knock down the quality of the final recording?

they have to take credit for this "mistake", because they have made a big fuss in the past about having total creative control. as a sound enthusiast myself i understand where you are coming from. I too have noticed that i never know wut a tool album will sound like on a new sound system. imo i like it tho.

and are all these wav's taken directly from the cd themselves?
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hushypushy's Avatar hushypushy
10-04-2006, 01:55 PM

The band members didn't have a choice. I doubt they were involved in the final mastering stage at all (most bands aren't, unless they produce it themselves). This album was produced by Tool and recorded & mixed by Joe Baressi at Bay 7 in North Hollywood. BUT it was mastered at Gateway Mastering Studios in Portland, Maine. There is nothing wrong with the producing and mixing of this album--I think it's absolutely fantastic. I love Baressi's earlier work too. HOWEVER when that 96khz/24bit master was sent via FBI guarded steel trucks or whatever Tool uses, that's where the problem was created--in the mastering stage.

Tool does have total creative control. But they don't determine stuff like final mastering stages. It seems like they have a surprising amount of control in the first place, actually. I was reading a post by Weird Al on his site about his new album. They released a dualdisc in the US, but other places either aren't getting a dualdisc (just regular CD) or they are getting a 2 disc set with a DVD that doesn't have all the features. And that is totally out of Al's hands (apparently).

These wavs were ripped from the CD, encoded to Ogg Q5 (back in May) and I decoded them to WAV (today) with dbpoweramp to take these pictures. The saying, "you learn something new every day" applies to me right now, because where I had previously believed that lossy encoding does not change the amplitude or the peaks of the wavs (especially sans lowpass filter like with Ogg Q5)....I WAS WRONG!

Gotta go to class, I'll be back in an hour and I will have NEW pictures up and perhaps a new hypothesis. I apologize to everyone for being a douche.
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Last edited by hushypushy; 10-04-2006 at 03:13 PM..
Old 10-04-2006, 01:55 PM   #3
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Re: 10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

The band members didn't have a choice. I doubt they were involved in the final mastering stage at all (most bands aren't, unless they produce it themselves). This album was produced by Tool and recorded & mixed by Joe Baressi at Bay 7 in North Hollywood. BUT it was mastered at Gateway Mastering Studios in Portland, Maine. There is nothing wrong with the producing and mixing of this album--I think it's absolutely fantastic. I love Baressi's earlier work too. HOWEVER when that 96khz/24bit master was sent via FBI guarded steel trucks or whatever Tool uses, that's where the problem was created--in the mastering stage.

Tool does have total creative control. But they don't determine stuff like final mastering stages. It seems like they have a surprising amount of control in the first place, actually. I was reading a post by Weird Al on his site about his new album. They released a dualdisc in the US, but other places either aren't getting a dualdisc (just regular CD) or they are getting a 2 disc set with a DVD that doesn't have all the features. And that is totally out of Al's hands (apparently).

These wavs were ripped from the CD, encoded to Ogg Q5 (back in May) and I decoded them to WAV (today) with dbpoweramp to take these pictures. The saying, "you learn something new every day" applies to me right now, because where I had previously believed that lossy encoding does not change the amplitude or the peaks of the wavs (especially sans lowpass filter like with Ogg Q5)....I WAS WRONG!

Gotta go to class, I'll be back in an hour and I will have NEW pictures up and perhaps a new hypothesis. I apologize to everyone for being a douche.
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Last edited by hushypushy; 10-04-2006 at 03:13 PM..
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slamminsalmon's Avatar slamminsalmon
10-04-2006, 02:02 PM

Well they went to portland maine, to do the mastering with Bob Ludwig, you think they would have gone, and not given it the final go ahead.

and yes you know more about file compression than me! lol
Old 10-04-2006, 02:02 PM   #4
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Re: 10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

Well they went to portland maine, to do the mastering with Bob Ludwig, you think they would have gone, and not given it the final go ahead.

and yes you know more about file compression than me! lol
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hushypushy's Avatar hushypushy
10-04-2006, 02:04 PM

I know enough to admit that I was wrong! Like it says in the edit, I'll be back soon with better wavs (I just tested Vicarious and you'd be surprised!)
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Old 10-04-2006, 02:04 PM   #5
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Re: 10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

I know enough to admit that I was wrong! Like it says in the edit, I'll be back soon with better wavs (I just tested Vicarious and you'd be surprised!)
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AloneOnceAgain97's Avatar AloneOnceAgain97
10-04-2006, 02:24 PM

I agree. There's no excuse to pump the albums that loud. If people want loud music, let them get SYSTEMS that make the music loud-that way it's loud AND clean... Pumping the CD is just nonsense.
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Old 10-04-2006, 02:24 PM   #6
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Re: 10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

I agree. There's no excuse to pump the albums that loud. If people want loud music, let them get SYSTEMS that make the music loud-that way it's loud AND clean... Pumping the CD is just nonsense.
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hushypushy's Avatar hushypushy
10-04-2006, 03:19 PM

Ok, new pics are up. phew!! Thanks to slamminsalmon for making me question my methods and making me go back and chnage what I put. These are straight off the CD WAV files, ripped with EAC, secure mode, etc.

Now, you don't see the peaks totally getting squashed...you see them cutting off right before that. It seems like they aimed to make this album as loud as possible, WITHOUT clipping. Hmm...you still see a definite amount of flat peaks (RS, jambi, RIT) but they are actually below the actual maximum volume line. Perhaps the album was boosted to clipping and then reduced or cut off? Strange.

But seriously folks, it's ridiculous. I wonder if Maynard/Adam/Danny/Justin have any idea that this is going on? What about Baressi? I haven't heard any official statements from anyone.
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Old 10-04-2006, 03:19 PM   #7
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Re: 10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

Ok, new pics are up. phew!! Thanks to slamminsalmon for making me question my methods and making me go back and chnage what I put. These are straight off the CD WAV files, ripped with EAC, secure mode, etc.

Now, you don't see the peaks totally getting squashed...you see them cutting off right before that. It seems like they aimed to make this album as loud as possible, WITHOUT clipping. Hmm...you still see a definite amount of flat peaks (RS, jambi, RIT) but they are actually below the actual maximum volume line. Perhaps the album was boosted to clipping and then reduced or cut off? Strange.

But seriously folks, it's ridiculous. I wonder if Maynard/Adam/Danny/Justin have any idea that this is going on? What about Baressi? I haven't heard any official statements from anyone.
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El Shaggy's Avatar El Shaggy
10-04-2006, 04:16 PM

This is a pretty interesting discovery, I wonder how bad is it compared to Lateralus and Aenima. I am not asking you do to any extra work hushy, but I do like my audio as much as the next guy. A DualDisc with a 5.1 Mix and maybe some looping alex grey and other toolish visuals would be mind-blowing for this album.

What is the MFSL Version on Pink Floyd's Money?
Old 10-04-2006, 04:16 PM   #8
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Re: 10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

This is a pretty interesting discovery, I wonder how bad is it compared to Lateralus and Aenima. I am not asking you do to any extra work hushy, but I do like my audio as much as the next guy. A DualDisc with a 5.1 Mix and maybe some looping alex grey and other toolish visuals would be mind-blowing for this album.

What is the MFSL Version on Pink Floyd's Money?
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scorectum
10-04-2006, 04:31 PM

at least it isn't like Vapor Trails..
Old 10-04-2006, 04:31 PM   #9
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Re: 10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

at least it isn't like Vapor Trails..
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OUTATIME's Avatar OUTATIME
10-04-2006, 04:41 PM

I definetly hear what you guys are talking about. Thanks for the 101 in compression Hushy. I do hope they release the un "mastered" versions for a more dynamic sound. Great find.
Old 10-04-2006, 04:41 PM   #10
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Re: 10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

I definetly hear what you guys are talking about. Thanks for the 101 in compression Hushy. I do hope they release the un "mastered" versions for a more dynamic sound. Great find.
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Jimmeny's Avatar Jimmeny
10-04-2006, 04:58 PM

Lateralus is a very quiet album, especially compared to 10K Days.

There's a compromise here. The compromise between making the album as loud as possible (which I do think is a good, loud music generates an good physicaly reaction) and keeping the audio true to itself. I do compress my own tracks quite highly, because compression injects a certain energy to the music. I also thought Tool had alot of input on the mastering of te songs.

I personally did find 10k Days sonically lifeless. The life is completely squeezed out of it and I don't find it a particularly well mastered album. It's mastered well TECHNICALLY but not, you know, ARTISTICALLY.

Do you think you could do an equally indepth post about the riff references to previous material for all the non hearers around here, Hushypushy?
Old 10-04-2006, 04:58 PM   #11
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Re: 10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

Lateralus is a very quiet album, especially compared to 10K Days.

There's a compromise here. The compromise between making the album as loud as possible (which I do think is a good, loud music generates an good physicaly reaction) and keeping the audio true to itself. I do compress my own tracks quite highly, because compression injects a certain energy to the music. I also thought Tool had alot of input on the mastering of te songs.

I personally did find 10k Days sonically lifeless. The life is completely squeezed out of it and I don't find it a particularly well mastered album. It's mastered well TECHNICALLY but not, you know, ARTISTICALLY.

Do you think you could do an equally indepth post about the riff references to previous material for all the non hearers around here, Hushypushy?
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hushypushy's Avatar hushypushy
10-04-2006, 05:35 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by scorectum
at least it isn't like Vapor Trails..
true that. that was a tragedy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Shaggy
This is a pretty interesting discovery, I wonder how bad is it compared to Lateralus and Aenima. I am not asking you do to any extra work hushy, but I do like my audio as much as the next guy.
Ah yes, I'm sure everyone is wondering...well, here. I took the title song off each album. The results may shock you.

Opiate

Undertow

Ænema

Lateralus

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Shaggy
What is the MFSL Version on Pink Floyd's Money?
I'll assume that "on" means "of" (easy typo). As you probably know, Pink Floyd's albums have been reissued and remastered an insane amount of times. MFSL (Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs, www.mofi.com) made their own DSOTM. check it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmeny
Lateralus is a very quiet album, especially compared to 10K Days.
Are you kidding me?? Lateralus is insanely loud! Compare the tracks back to back, you won't have to change your volume knob at all. Lateralus has more dynamic range though, a lot of quiet then loud parts (parabol/parabola, Lateralus, etc)

Quote:
There's a compromise here. The compromise between making the album as loud as possible (which I do think is a good, loud music generates an good physicaly reaction) and keeping the audio true to itself.
Ehhhh, you're missing the point. Albums are made louder so they appear louder on crappier systems. Get a well mastered album out, a quiet one, like Led Zeppelin II, for example. Turn it up. Everything sounds great. But as you turn it down, it gets fainter and fainter. This is how it should be. If they made a 21st century remaster, you'd be able to keep turning it down and hear every part of the song. That's because there is no dynamic range. Everything is compressed into the same loudness.

Quote:
I do compress my own tracks quite highly, because compression injects a certain energy to the music.
You are confusing loudness with volume, and compression with data encoding, it seems. You can still listen to say, classical music or MFSL mastered recordings loudly, even though they are quiet. Just turn up your volume. But loud recordings (like all of SOAD's music for example) are compressed. No, not compressed like turning your CD into MP3s. Compressed like the range is compressed. The quiet stuff is boosted up to the same volume as the loud stuff, so everything sounds the same. With that definition, I doubt that you compress all of your music--unless you normalize the shit out of it. And if you do that, then I have no idea how you can call 10,000 Days lifeless (unless you're just going with the flow I guess...).

Quote:
It's mastered well TECHNICALLY but not, you know, ARTISTICALLY.
There is not one drop of artistry in mastering. There is in production and mixing, but not mastering. Mastering is completely technical. And this album was very poorly mastered, just like every other album coming out these days. MUSIC NEEDS TO BE QUIETER. Bottom line. This constant loudness war is ridiculous and it just hurts everyone involved. Gee, I wonder why audiophile mastering companies like MFSL, Sony Mastersound, etc have such quiet albums with very high dynamic range? Could it be because it's a better way to put music on CDs? hmm...

Quote:
Do you think you could do an equally indepth post about the riff references to previous material for all the non hearers around here, Hushypushy?
You mean all that nonsense about how they recycled riffs all over the place? Well, that's completely subjective...and I'm all about objective or blind tests, things that have no opinion bias. So I'm afraid I can't help you out there ;)

Oh, by the way folks, you can do this yourself. Go get a CD ripper and any wav viewing program, do it yourself! Zoom in and out on the wavs, analyze it, listen to it...don't just take my word for it.
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Last edited by hushypushy; 10-04-2006 at 05:40 PM..
Old 10-04-2006, 05:35 PM   #12
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Re: 10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scorectum
at least it isn't like Vapor Trails..
true that. that was a tragedy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Shaggy
This is a pretty interesting discovery, I wonder how bad is it compared to Lateralus and Aenima. I am not asking you do to any extra work hushy, but I do like my audio as much as the next guy.
Ah yes, I'm sure everyone is wondering...well, here. I took the title song off each album. The results may shock you.

Opiate

Undertow

Ænema

Lateralus

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Shaggy
What is the MFSL Version on Pink Floyd's Money?
I'll assume that "on" means "of" (easy typo). As you probably know, Pink Floyd's albums have been reissued and remastered an insane amount of times. MFSL (Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs, www.mofi.com) made their own DSOTM. check it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmeny
Lateralus is a very quiet album, especially compared to 10K Days.
Are you kidding me?? Lateralus is insanely loud! Compare the tracks back to back, you won't have to change your volume knob at all. Lateralus has more dynamic range though, a lot of quiet then loud parts (parabol/parabola, Lateralus, etc)

Quote:
There's a compromise here. The compromise between making the album as loud as possible (which I do think is a good, loud music generates an good physicaly reaction) and keeping the audio true to itself.
Ehhhh, you're missing the point. Albums are made louder so they appear louder on crappier systems. Get a well mastered album out, a quiet one, like Led Zeppelin II, for example. Turn it up. Everything sounds great. But as you turn it down, it gets fainter and fainter. This is how it should be. If they made a 21st century remaster, you'd be able to keep turning it down and hear every part of the song. That's because there is no dynamic range. Everything is compressed into the same loudness.

Quote:
I do compress my own tracks quite highly, because compression injects a certain energy to the music.
You are confusing loudness with volume, and compression with data encoding, it seems. You can still listen to say, classical music or MFSL mastered recordings loudly, even though they are quiet. Just turn up your volume. But loud recordings (like all of SOAD's music for example) are compressed. No, not compressed like turning your CD into MP3s. Compressed like the range is compressed. The quiet stuff is boosted up to the same volume as the loud stuff, so everything sounds the same. With that definition, I doubt that you compress all of your music--unless you normalize the shit out of it. And if you do that, then I have no idea how you can call 10,000 Days lifeless (unless you're just going with the flow I guess...).

Quote:
It's mastered well TECHNICALLY but not, you know, ARTISTICALLY.
There is not one drop of artistry in mastering. There is in production and mixing, but not mastering. Mastering is completely technical. And this album was very poorly mastered, just like every other album coming out these days. MUSIC NEEDS TO BE QUIETER. Bottom line. This constant loudness war is ridiculous and it just hurts everyone involved. Gee, I wonder why audiophile mastering companies like MFSL, Sony Mastersound, etc have such quiet albums with very high dynamic range? Could it be because it's a better way to put music on CDs? hmm...

Quote:
Do you think you could do an equally indepth post about the riff references to previous material for all the non hearers around here, Hushypushy?
You mean all that nonsense about how they recycled riffs all over the place? Well, that's completely subjective...and I'm all about objective or blind tests, things that have no opinion bias. So I'm afraid I can't help you out there ;)

Oh, by the way folks, you can do this yourself. Go get a CD ripper and any wav viewing program, do it yourself! Zoom in and out on the wavs, analyze it, listen to it...don't just take my word for it.
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Last edited by hushypushy; 10-04-2006 at 05:40 PM..
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scorectum
10-04-2006, 05:41 PM

yeah lateralus is pretty loud..

notice the big volume boost when adam's one note wah guitar solo roles in on the title track..

also, i think this album is nearly ruined by how loud it is, except for Vicarious and Rosetta, but mostly Vicarious..
Old 10-04-2006, 05:41 PM   #13
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Re: 10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

yeah lateralus is pretty loud..

notice the big volume boost when adam's one note wah guitar solo roles in on the title track..

also, i think this album is nearly ruined by how loud it is, except for Vicarious and Rosetta, but mostly Vicarious..
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hushypushy's Avatar hushypushy
10-04-2006, 05:46 PM

I'd have to say Wings is the most ruined because it's the song that's supposed to have the most range. Maybe it's because I'm not that much of a fan of that song in the first place (it's my least favorite song [not counting segues] that Tool has ever released), but still, it falls really short. An excellent example: go to 4:10 in Wings pt 1. Or maybe earlier. But listen when the heavy part comes in. It's this quiet stuff and then then a loud riff hits. But uh....it has absolutely no impact.

When I downloaded the leak in April, I was unimpressed by that song. When I got the CD I was extremely anxious to hear it and....wow, I was so bummed out. It should be quiet quiet LOUD!!!!! but instead it's like quiet quiet loud. You know that it's supposed to be loud (it's multidubbed distorted guitars played hard) but you just don't feel it. No dynamic range.
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Old 10-04-2006, 05:46 PM   #14
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Re: 10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

I'd have to say Wings is the most ruined because it's the song that's supposed to have the most range. Maybe it's because I'm not that much of a fan of that song in the first place (it's my least favorite song [not counting segues] that Tool has ever released), but still, it falls really short. An excellent example: go to 4:10 in Wings pt 1. Or maybe earlier. But listen when the heavy part comes in. It's this quiet stuff and then then a loud riff hits. But uh....it has absolutely no impact.

When I downloaded the leak in April, I was unimpressed by that song. When I got the CD I was extremely anxious to hear it and....wow, I was so bummed out. It should be quiet quiet LOUD!!!!! but instead it's like quiet quiet loud. You know that it's supposed to be loud (it's multidubbed distorted guitars played hard) but you just don't feel it. No dynamic range.
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scorectum
10-04-2006, 06:34 PM

i agree, though i think Jambi is the biggest victim of the mastering.. i don't know much about it, like you do, but it really sounds like someone listened to the first few seconds only, and thought "oooo heavy song, make it loud!" when jambi is actually a very quiet song with an intended apparently raging exterior/facet imo..
Old 10-04-2006, 06:34 PM   #15
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Re: 10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

i agree, though i think Jambi is the biggest victim of the mastering.. i don't know much about it, like you do, but it really sounds like someone listened to the first few seconds only, and thought "oooo heavy song, make it loud!" when jambi is actually a very quiet song with an intended apparently raging exterior/facet imo..
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etaipo's Avatar etaipo
10-04-2006, 07:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by hushypushy View Post
I'd have to say Wings is the most ruined because it's the song that's supposed to have the most range. Maybe it's because I'm not that much of a fan of that song in the first place (it's my least favorite song [not counting segues] that Tool has ever released), but still, it falls really short. An excellent example: go to 4:10 in Wings pt 1. Or maybe earlier. But listen when the heavy part comes in. It's this quiet stuff and then then a loud riff hits. But uh....it has absolutely no impact.
I have always thought that about Wings. When Danny goes into hitting the ride. It sounds really bad. Why? It ALMOST ruins the song.
Old 10-04-2006, 07:52 PM   #16
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Re: 10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hushypushy View Post
I'd have to say Wings is the most ruined because it's the song that's supposed to have the most range. Maybe it's because I'm not that much of a fan of that song in the first place (it's my least favorite song [not counting segues] that Tool has ever released), but still, it falls really short. An excellent example: go to 4:10 in Wings pt 1. Or maybe earlier. But listen when the heavy part comes in. It's this quiet stuff and then then a loud riff hits. But uh....it has absolutely no impact.
I have always thought that about Wings. When Danny goes into hitting the ride. It sounds really bad. Why? It ALMOST ruins the song.
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hushypushy's Avatar hushypushy
10-04-2006, 10:58 PM

it's the 90s man. Sometime in the mid or early 90s, this strange trend began. I'm surprised that Opiate was mastered was well as it is.

I dunno, Lateralus, even though it's loud, has very good dynamic range. Meaning, sure it's loud, but it has a lot of ups and downs too. 10,000 Days is the only one where there is an audible problem though, in my opinion. I can't think of any Tool songs not on 10kd that are killed by lack of dynamic range.
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Old 10-04-2006, 10:58 PM   #17
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Re: 10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

it's the 90s man. Sometime in the mid or early 90s, this strange trend began. I'm surprised that Opiate was mastered was well as it is.

I dunno, Lateralus, even though it's loud, has very good dynamic range. Meaning, sure it's loud, but it has a lot of ups and downs too. 10,000 Days is the only one where there is an audible problem though, in my opinion. I can't think of any Tool songs not on 10kd that are killed by lack of dynamic range.
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Sotto Voce
10-05-2006, 01:45 AM

Anyone ever think that they might have pumped up the sound in order to hide something underneath of it?

As in, for example, at 11:00 on Rosetta Stoned?
Old 10-05-2006, 01:45 AM   #18
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Re: 10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

Anyone ever think that they might have pumped up the sound in order to hide something underneath of it?

As in, for example, at 11:00 on Rosetta Stoned?
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10-05-2006, 05:36 AM

I uploaded the wave sample strait from the cd into Adobe Audition and zoomed in on some of the peaks and although they are above the line I didn't see any that actually clipped. The were all nice round peaks, no distortion at the top of them.
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Old 10-05-2006, 05:36 AM   #19
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Re: 10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

I uploaded the wave sample strait from the cd into Adobe Audition and zoomed in on some of the peaks and although they are above the line I didn't see any that actually clipped. The were all nice round peaks, no distortion at the top of them.
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10-05-2006, 05:43 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by leefnaspleaf View Post
Today I learned that 10KD isn't really any more "squashed" than all of Tool's other albums. Thanks.
True, true.

The problem is the trend started or the 'bar got raised' so if Tool were to release a very dynamic album today, anyone who has no clue would think there was something wrong with the CD. "Why do I have to turn my Tool CD up, it's not loud enough!" I have a shitload of classic rock tracks on my iPod/CPU and they sound WAY quieter than anything released early-90's. In iTunes, there are 2 ways to remedy this. 1. You can actually set a volume adjustment in ID3 tag itself, a really cool feature considering you can do it for each individual track! 2. In the preferences, you can click 'sound check' and it will compress all of your music to the same level, definitely not recommended.

I bet that 24bit version that went to be mastered had the same dynamic range before it was mastered. To all the Wings haters, the reason it doesn't grab you by the balls and doesn't hit you hard is because it's not supposed to. It's a very looping sound, I believe this was intentionally done to convey the emotions Maynard is feeling, as if he's rolling forward down a hill and can't stop pouring out his feelings. Listen to the other tracks on the album, they have tons of moments that hit hard, so you think Wings doesn't grab you because it's compressed? It doesn't make sense.
Old 10-05-2006, 05:43 AM   #20
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Re: 10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leefnaspleaf View Post
Today I learned that 10KD isn't really any more "squashed" than all of Tool's other albums. Thanks.
True, true.

The problem is the trend started or the 'bar got raised' so if Tool were to release a very dynamic album today, anyone who has no clue would think there was something wrong with the CD. "Why do I have to turn my Tool CD up, it's not loud enough!" I have a shitload of classic rock tracks on my iPod/CPU and they sound WAY quieter than anything released early-90's. In iTunes, there are 2 ways to remedy this. 1. You can actually set a volume adjustment in ID3 tag itself, a really cool feature considering you can do it for each individual track! 2. In the preferences, you can click 'sound check' and it will compress all of your music to the same level, definitely not recommended.

I bet that 24bit version that went to be mastered had the same dynamic range before it was mastered. To all the Wings haters, the reason it doesn't grab you by the balls and doesn't hit you hard is because it's not supposed to. It's a very looping sound, I believe this was intentionally done to convey the emotions Maynard is feeling, as if he's rolling forward down a hill and can't stop pouring out his feelings. Listen to the other tracks on the album, they have tons of moments that hit hard, so you think Wings doesn't grab you because it's compressed? It doesn't make sense.
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paraflux
10-05-2006, 06:07 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by leefnaspleaf View Post
Today I learned that 10KD isn't really any more "squashed" than all of Tool's other albums. Thanks.

...
I guess you didnt read the thread then.


You dont compress a wav to give it energy. People are also getting compression confused with limiting.
Old 10-05-2006, 06:07 AM   #21
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Re: 10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leefnaspleaf View Post
Today I learned that 10KD isn't really any more "squashed" than all of Tool's other albums. Thanks.

...
I guess you didnt read the thread then.


You dont compress a wav to give it energy. People are also getting compression confused with limiting.
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Juzblome
10-05-2006, 06:21 AM

I agree with you for the most part.

there are some flaws in your statements though.

It doesn't matter if you use every single bit of the 16 bits available on a cd. you can have stuff go all the way up to -.01dB it doesn't hurt anything. It's when everything is at that level and it becomes the average that you get issues.

I know a few mastering engineers personaly that would totaly disagree with your statement about mastering engineers not haveing any art in thier work. It is very technical yes. but anything envolving music production at any point from the song writing to rehearsels to Tracking to editing to mixing to mastering to cd artwork all has to have some art in it. other wise i'd show up to work and people would get real pissed that they are giving me 100's of dollars and I give them no creative feel. just my technical knowledge, they'll go somewhere else. and that ain't good for buisness.
Old 10-05-2006, 06:21 AM   #22
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Re: 10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

I agree with you for the most part.

there are some flaws in your statements though.

It doesn't matter if you use every single bit of the 16 bits available on a cd. you can have stuff go all the way up to -.01dB it doesn't hurt anything. It's when everything is at that level and it becomes the average that you get issues.

I know a few mastering engineers personaly that would totaly disagree with your statement about mastering engineers not haveing any art in thier work. It is very technical yes. but anything envolving music production at any point from the song writing to rehearsels to Tracking to editing to mixing to mastering to cd artwork all has to have some art in it. other wise i'd show up to work and people would get real pissed that they are giving me 100's of dollars and I give them no creative feel. just my technical knowledge, they'll go somewhere else. and that ain't good for buisness.
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10-05-2006, 07:25 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juzblome View Post
I agree with you for the most part.

there are some flaws in your statements though.

It doesn't matter if you use every single bit of the 16 bits available on a cd. you can have stuff go all the way up to -.01dB it doesn't hurt anything. It's when everything is at that level and it becomes the average that you get issues.

I know a few mastering engineers personaly that would totaly disagree with your statement about mastering engineers not haveing any art in thier work. It is very technical yes. but anything envolving music production at any point from the song writing to rehearsels to Tracking to editing to mixing to mastering to cd artwork all has to have some art in it. other wise i'd show up to work and people would get real pissed that they are giving me 100's of dollars and I give them no creative feel. just my technical knowledge, they'll go somewhere else. and that ain't good for buisness.
What is it that you do for your job.
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Old 10-05-2006, 07:25 AM   #23
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Re: 10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juzblome View Post
I agree with you for the most part.

there are some flaws in your statements though.

It doesn't matter if you use every single bit of the 16 bits available on a cd. you can have stuff go all the way up to -.01dB it doesn't hurt anything. It's when everything is at that level and it becomes the average that you get issues.

I know a few mastering engineers personaly that would totaly disagree with your statement about mastering engineers not haveing any art in thier work. It is very technical yes. but anything envolving music production at any point from the song writing to rehearsels to Tracking to editing to mixing to mastering to cd artwork all has to have some art in it. other wise i'd show up to work and people would get real pissed that they are giving me 100's of dollars and I give them no creative feel. just my technical knowledge, they'll go somewhere else. and that ain't good for buisness.
What is it that you do for your job.
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Juzblome
10-05-2006, 07:36 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by futant55 View Post
What is it that you do for your job.


I'm a recording engineer. I do tracking(recording), mixing, editing, and some mastering. (i like to leave the mastering to the pros.

this is were i spend most of my time at work.

http://stashbox.org/834/in control 1.jpg

This were the artist spend thier time. on the other side of the glass.

http://stashbox.org/835/Vocalbooth 2.jpg
Old 10-05-2006, 07:36 AM   #24
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Re: 10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by futant55 View Post
What is it that you do for your job.


I'm a recording engineer. I do tracking(recording), mixing, editing, and some mastering. (i like to leave the mastering to the pros.

this is were i spend most of my time at work.

http://stashbox.org/834/in control 1.jpg

This were the artist spend thier time. on the other side of the glass.

http://stashbox.org/835/Vocalbooth 2.jpg
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phishman1's Avatar phishman1
10-05-2006, 08:31 AM

As soon as I heard people bitching about alleged 'clipping', I ran the whole CD through ProTools. I noticed the tendancy of the mix being pretty loud, but I have seen songs look worse that that and sound fine. I have listened to 10,000 Days on a few very high-end systems, and I honestly have yet to hear any clipping.
Old 10-05-2006, 08:31 AM   #25
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Re: 10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

As soon as I heard people bitching about alleged 'clipping', I ran the whole CD through ProTools. I noticed the tendancy of the mix being pretty loud, but I have seen songs look worse that that and sound fine. I have listened to 10,000 Days on a few very high-end systems, and I honestly have yet to hear any clipping.
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hushypushy's Avatar hushypushy
10-05-2006, 10:27 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by futant55 View Post
I uploaded the wave sample strait from the cd into Adobe Audition and zoomed in on some of the peaks and although they are above the line I didn't see any that actually clipped. The were all nice round peaks, no distortion at the top of them.
Ok let's see if I can organize my thoughts properly here...

Let's start with the wav itself. From far enough away, everything looks like a giant compressed mess. When I switched to windowed mode, the songs actually looked much worse. I think the length of Tool's songs (especially ones like Lateralus, Rosetta Stoned, 10,000 Days..) might be playing tricks on people. Kudos to you for doing your own research.

next, how far did you zoom in? the more you zoom, the prettier it looks.

zoomed out. The arrow points to our area in question, 7:10. In all of the next shots, just look at 7:10. The actual position moves closer and closer to the middle, so look at the bottom ruler thingy for 7:10 or thereabouts.

more...

more...

more..

more...

more...

more...

if you just keep zooming in it's gonna look real purty.

Also, I've heard clipping on my Q5 Oggs. Do you know what an ABX test is? If not, go look it up, it's important. But if you already know I'll spare the lecture. I can ABX, at best, Q3 Ogg, on my headphones (which I'm quite proud/surprised of...many people can't ABX Q1). I put my favorite music (like Tool) into Q5 so I know it's overkill and completely transparent. When I analyze the Ogg-->wavs, there is much more visible clipping. analyze my original Jambi wav pic next to the ogg to wav converted one, pretty amazing difference there.

Furthermore, the thread title is "compressed to hell", not "clips all over the place". Maybe this just wasn't an album that Tool wanted to showcase a lot of dynamics for.

But my main point (which I will reiterate below) is that no album should look like this. Yes, you CAN take an album to within 0.1db of the breaking point and it still won't clip. But WHY on earth would you do that? A good point to think about is something I said in an earlier post in this thread:

Why do you think audiophile companies like MFSL or Sony Mastersound have such quiet albums? Why are classical CDs so quiet? And why is the music on major labels (yes folks, Tool is on a major label) so loud? Classical CDs could easily be pumped up. Saying it's because "a piano is quiet" is bullcrap. A guitar can be quiet too. MFSL makes rock music too. hmm....it's just something to think about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lizbiz
To all the Wings haters, the reason it doesn't grab you by the balls and doesn't hit you hard is because it's not supposed to. It's a very looping sound, I believe this was intentionally done to convey the emotions Maynard is feeling, as if he's rolling forward down a hill and can't stop pouring out his feelings. Listen to the other tracks on the album, they have tons of moments that hit hard, so you think Wings doesn't grab you because it's compressed? It doesn't make sense.
The only strong transition on this album is, maybe, at the beginning of Vicarious. I was thinking that maybe this album doesn't lend itself to volume changes like the other albums did.

Lateralus had songs like Parabol/Parabola, Schism, Lateralus, Eon Blue Apocalypse/The Patient which were quiet and loud both.

Ænima had Eulogy, Third Eye, even Ænema had range going on there.

Undertow had Bottom, Undertow, 4º, etc.

Opiate had Opiate and Hush.

What does 10,000 Days have as far as quiet/loud? I'd say Vicarious and that's it. Everything else is loud all the way through. So are you trying to tell me that 10,000 Days was purposely all created at the same volume for some emotional effect? That the only song that actually might have dynamic range is severely (but not completely, thank goodness) lacking in it? And this "rolling" thing you describe is actually the main reason I don't enjoy this song. Well wait a second. I really do like this song a lot, it's a great song. However, it's still my least favorite tool song, taking the title away from Bottom (only because I hate Henry Rollins.....the song is amazing otherwise). the whole WFM thing should be about half its length. Jeez, you wanna talk recycled riffs...nah, whatever. If i really wanted to talk about the whole WFM thing and why I don't like it, I'd make a new thread. But I haven't; I don't really want to discuss it (or argue my own opinion). So in that way, if you want to say that you think that the compression in WFM is part of the song, that's cool. I can dig that.

Quote:
I bet that 24bit version that went to be mastered had the same dynamic range before it was mastered.
We'll see. I hope that version comes to light. Not because I'm a stickler for SACD or DVDA audio, no way, that's bullshit. 44khz/16bit is damn good enough. Baressi did hint at a 5.1 version, that's the part that excites me. I can actually do without the dynamic range. Give me a good version of WFM in 5.1 and I'll take back the things I said. It's the excellent stereo mix that keeps me from totally hating this song. In fact, this album has an excellent stereo mix. In my opinion of course.




Some of you are missing the point by a huge long shot. It's not to say that 10,000 Days is the worst mastered CD ever made. It's not to say that it clips all over the place. It's not to say that any music sucks. It's not to blame anyone. I'm simply illustrating a point that 10,000 Days, like many other albums coming out these days, has its range far too compressed, and the entire album is way too loud. That's it. You shouldn't like it any less after reading this thread. I didn't intend to ruin your life.

And now that you know, go out and rip your other CDs and compare the wavs. You'll learn a lot.
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Old 10-05-2006, 10:27 AM   #26
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Re: 10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by futant55 View Post
I uploaded the wave sample strait from the cd into Adobe Audition and zoomed in on some of the peaks and although they are above the line I didn't see any that actually clipped. The were all nice round peaks, no distortion at the top of them.
Ok let's see if I can organize my thoughts properly here...

Let's start with the wav itself. From far enough away, everything looks like a giant compressed mess. When I switched to windowed mode, the songs actually looked much worse. I think the length of Tool's songs (especially ones like Lateralus, Rosetta Stoned, 10,000 Days..) might be playing tricks on people. Kudos to you for doing your own research.

next, how far did you zoom in? the more you zoom, the prettier it looks.

zoomed out. The arrow points to our area in question, 7:10. In all of the next shots, just look at 7:10. The actual position moves closer and closer to the middle, so look at the bottom ruler thingy for 7:10 or thereabouts.

more...

more...

more..

more...

more...

more...

if you just keep zooming in it's gonna look real purty.

Also, I've heard clipping on my Q5 Oggs. Do you know what an ABX test is? If not, go look it up, it's important. But if you already know I'll spare the lecture. I can ABX, at best, Q3 Ogg, on my headphones (which I'm quite proud/surprised of...many people can't ABX Q1). I put my favorite music (like Tool) into Q5 so I know it's overkill and completely transparent. When I analyze the Ogg-->wavs, there is much more visible clipping. analyze my original Jambi wav pic next to the ogg to wav converted one, pretty amazing difference there.

Furthermore, the thread title is "compressed to hell", not "clips all over the place". Maybe this just wasn't an album that Tool wanted to showcase a lot of dynamics for.

But my main point (which I will reiterate below) is that no album should look like this. Yes, you CAN take an album to within 0.1db of the breaking point and it still won't clip. But WHY on earth would you do that? A good point to think about is something I said in an earlier post in this thread:

Why do you think audiophile companies like MFSL or Sony Mastersound have such quiet albums? Why are classical CDs so quiet? And why is the music on major labels (yes folks, Tool is on a major label) so loud? Classical CDs could easily be pumped up. Saying it's because "a piano is quiet" is bullcrap. A guitar can be quiet too. MFSL makes rock music too. hmm....it's just something to think about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lizbiz
To all the Wings haters, the reason it doesn't grab you by the balls and doesn't hit you hard is because it's not supposed to. It's a very looping sound, I believe this was intentionally done to convey the emotions Maynard is feeling, as if he's rolling forward down a hill and can't stop pouring out his feelings. Listen to the other tracks on the album, they have tons of moments that hit hard, so you think Wings doesn't grab you because it's compressed? It doesn't make sense.
The only strong transition on this album is, maybe, at the beginning of Vicarious. I was thinking that maybe this album doesn't lend itself to volume changes like the other albums did.

Lateralus had songs like Parabol/Parabola, Schism, Lateralus, Eon Blue Apocalypse/The Patient which were quiet and loud both.

Ænima had Eulogy, Third Eye, even Ænema had range going on there.

Undertow had Bottom, Undertow, 4º, etc.

Opiate had Opiate and Hush.

What does 10,000 Days have as far as quiet/loud? I'd say Vicarious and that's it. Everything else is loud all the way through. So are you trying to tell me that 10,000 Days was purposely all created at the same volume for some emotional effect? That the only song that actually might have dynamic range is severely (but not completely, thank goodness) lacking in it? And this "rolling" thing you describe is actually the main reason I don't enjoy this song. Well wait a second. I really do like this song a lot, it's a great song. However, it's still my least favorite tool song, taking the title away from Bottom (only because I hate Henry Rollins.....the song is amazing otherwise). the whole WFM thing should be about half its length. Jeez, you wanna talk recycled riffs...nah, whatever. If i really wanted to talk about the whole WFM thing and why I don't like it, I'd make a new thread. But I haven't; I don't really want to discuss it (or argue my own opinion). So in that way, if you want to say that you think that the compression in WFM is part of the song, that's cool. I can dig that.

Quote:
I bet that 24bit version that went to be mastered had the same dynamic range before it was mastered.
We'll see. I hope that version comes to light. Not because I'm a stickler for SACD or DVDA audio, no way, that's bullshit. 44khz/16bit is damn good enough. Baressi did hint at a 5.1 version, that's the part that excites me. I can actually do without the dynamic range. Give me a good version of WFM in 5.1 and I'll take back the things I said. It's the excellent stereo mix that keeps me from totally hating this song. In fact, this album has an excellent stereo mix. In my opinion of course.




Some of you are missing the point by a huge long shot. It's not to say that 10,000 Days is the worst mastered CD ever made. It's not to say that it clips all over the place. It's not to say that any music sucks. It's not to blame anyone. I'm simply illustrating a point that 10,000 Days, like many other albums coming out these days, has its range far too compressed, and the entire album is way too loud. That's it. You shouldn't like it any less after reading this thread. I didn't intend to ruin your life.

And now that you know, go out and rip your other CDs and compare the wavs. You'll learn a lot.
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10-05-2006, 12:55 PM

Blame it on the radio stations. They did a test that proved( I guess as far as something can be proved) that someone skipping through radiostations will more likely stop on the loudest one. So their answer was that they will be loudest, and from then on it was all about compressing the hell out of everything and being the loudest. I understand waht youre saying about everything being too loud I"m not trying to argue with you about that.
I still don't see how you are saying that wings for marie is clipping. Look at this peak it's the closest one to 7:10. It's a very round peak and no clipping. I drewin next to it in shitty white what a clipped peak would look like. Tell me if I'm misunderstanding something. I do my own recording and I've learned to fix clips and if I'm wrong here I would like to know what's right for my own benefit.
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g1...mariepeaks.jpg
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Old 10-05-2006, 12:55 PM   #27
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Re: 10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

Blame it on the radio stations. They did a test that proved( I guess as far as something can be proved) that someone skipping through radiostations will more likely stop on the loudest one. So their answer was that they will be loudest, and from then on it was all about compressing the hell out of everything and being the loudest. I understand waht youre saying about everything being too loud I"m not trying to argue with you about that.
I still don't see how you are saying that wings for marie is clipping. Look at this peak it's the closest one to 7:10. It's a very round peak and no clipping. I drewin next to it in shitty white what a clipped peak would look like. Tell me if I'm misunderstanding something. I do my own recording and I've learned to fix clips and if I'm wrong here I would like to know what's right for my own benefit.
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g1...mariepeaks.jpg
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10-05-2006, 01:13 PM

I went and looked at that abx test, and from what I understand it is for testing audio components for their accurancy of reproducing the sound. What does that have to do with compression and clipping. Although it is cool and beneficial what does that have to do with this topic. I guess I do need that lecture, sorry.
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Old 10-05-2006, 01:13 PM   #28
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Re: 10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

I went and looked at that abx test, and from what I understand it is for testing audio components for their accurancy of reproducing the sound. What does that have to do with compression and clipping. Although it is cool and beneficial what does that have to do with this topic. I guess I do need that lecture, sorry.
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10-05-2006, 02:45 PM

alright, maybe i need to take out the clipping part of my first post because it's distracted everyone from the main point of the thread (and it's my fault too, i practically said "this is the point of the thread"), which is that this album is too fucking compressed. and too loud.

For one, the song is Jambi, not wings. but that's irrelevant, i was just showing how it can look like it's clipping but in reality, it's just a lot of loud peaks really close together. I mean, look at Money. it doesn't have a lot of "peaks", it's kind of smooshed. So that's not the point.

There is no reason that any music needs to be that goddamn loud. Ponder my question in bold a couple posts ago about audiophile labels versus corporate america labels.

also, this album is compressed. Where the hell are the quiet parts? The whole WFM thing is much louder than it should be in the quiet section. Go analyze Parabol/Parabola, or the patient/eba or just look at the picture of Lateralus that I already posted. see the change in dynamic range? when Lateralus wants to be quiet, it's quiet. when it wants to be loud, it's loud. WFM, even the quiet intro...is pretty loud. Could they have meant it to be that way? YES! It's quite possible.

And by pointing out the ABX test I was trying to show how even transparent (sounds the same as the original) music files can be altered and even produce problems from their encoders. Look at how many people listen to music. Many people use MP3 or OGG to store their music, rather than a lossless file or constant using the regular CD. So that could be why a lot of people are saying that there is clipping. They have it encoded in 192kbps MP3 which is way overkill when most people can't ABX the difference between WAV and 128 (or less), and there still might be encoder-induced clipping because of high and lowpass filters because the album is too freakin' loud.

Lateralus and 10,000 Days reach pretty much the same peak volumes (i'm speaking of the entire albums in general). However, 10,000 Days has so little reach into quiet areas and it's disappointing. Could they have meant it to be this way? Yes. Are there less songs that lend themselves to having a high dynamic range than albums past? Possibly.

You want to see clipping? here is some very bad clipping. Jambi, as far as I can see, does not clip, but it comes very close in several places.

Why does it even need to stretch up there? why??
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Old 10-05-2006, 02:45 PM   #29
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Re: 10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

alright, maybe i need to take out the clipping part of my first post because it's distracted everyone from the main point of the thread (and it's my fault too, i practically said "this is the point of the thread"), which is that this album is too fucking compressed. and too loud.

For one, the song is Jambi, not wings. but that's irrelevant, i was just showing how it can look like it's clipping but in reality, it's just a lot of loud peaks really close together. I mean, look at Money. it doesn't have a lot of "peaks", it's kind of smooshed. So that's not the point.

There is no reason that any music needs to be that goddamn loud. Ponder my question in bold a couple posts ago about audiophile labels versus corporate america labels.

also, this album is compressed. Where the hell are the quiet parts? The whole WFM thing is much louder than it should be in the quiet section. Go analyze Parabol/Parabola, or the patient/eba or just look at the picture of Lateralus that I already posted. see the change in dynamic range? when Lateralus wants to be quiet, it's quiet. when it wants to be loud, it's loud. WFM, even the quiet intro...is pretty loud. Could they have meant it to be that way? YES! It's quite possible.

And by pointing out the ABX test I was trying to show how even transparent (sounds the same as the original) music files can be altered and even produce problems from their encoders. Look at how many people listen to music. Many people use MP3 or OGG to store their music, rather than a lossless file or constant using the regular CD. So that could be why a lot of people are saying that there is clipping. They have it encoded in 192kbps MP3 which is way overkill when most people can't ABX the difference between WAV and 128 (or less), and there still might be encoder-induced clipping because of high and lowpass filters because the album is too freakin' loud.

Lateralus and 10,000 Days reach pretty much the same peak volumes (i'm speaking of the entire albums in general). However, 10,000 Days has so little reach into quiet areas and it's disappointing. Could they have meant it to be this way? Yes. Are there less songs that lend themselves to having a high dynamic range than albums past? Possibly.

You want to see clipping? here is some very bad clipping. Jambi, as far as I can see, does not clip, but it comes very close in several places.

Why does it even need to stretch up there? why??
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Metlamaniac's Avatar Metlamaniac
10-05-2006, 03:52 PM

there is a tom fill in Rossetta stoned that is ruined by the clipping. 7:00 mins into song. Listen on headphones
Old 10-05-2006, 03:52 PM   #30
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Re: 10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

there is a tom fill in Rossetta stoned that is ruined by the clipping. 7:00 mins into song. Listen on headphones
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Jimmeny's Avatar Jimmeny
10-05-2006, 03:59 PM

I don't agree with any of your dissection of my post hushypushy, apart from you might be right about Lateralus, I haven't looked properly.

I write, record, produce and MASTER all of my own songs. I really, really meant what I said when I said I compress my own tracks. As in, when I master my mix downs, I compress them quiet highly to inject energy. Not so high that the compression artefacts are noticeable, just enough to raise the energy of the different parts. I was at no point referring to data encoding and mp3 compression.

10,000 Days is lifeless to me for the exact reasons you're describing, it's compressed beyond belief.

I also don't agree that there isn't any artisanship to mastering. OK, mastering a commercial CD to get it as loud as possible is ignoring the craft a bit. But usually, mix downs can be quite quiet and adding the right compression adds all the dynamic energy you were looking to achieve. Tweaking bits here and there, compressing different sections in different ways to increase those dynamics... no I think there's alot of craft in mastering something well. But your point here is that 10K Days isn't mastered well, and I think you're right. It's not mastered poorly in a commercial way, but it's not mastered in a very artistic way.

I'm sorry you assumed I didnt have an equal knowledge base to you.
Old 10-05-2006, 03:59 PM   #31
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Re: 10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

I don't agree with any of your dissection of my post hushypushy, apart from you might be right about Lateralus, I haven't looked properly.

I write, record, produce and MASTER all of my own songs. I really, really meant what I said when I said I compress my own tracks. As in, when I master my mix downs, I compress them quiet highly to inject energy. Not so high that the compression artefacts are noticeable, just enough to raise the energy of the different parts. I was at no point referring to data encoding and mp3 compression.

10,000 Days is lifeless to me for the exact reasons you're describing, it's compressed beyond belief.

I also don't agree that there isn't any artisanship to mastering. OK, mastering a commercial CD to get it as loud as possible is ignoring the craft a bit. But usually, mix downs can be quite quiet and adding the right compression adds all the dynamic energy you were looking to achieve. Tweaking bits here and there, compressing different sections in different ways to increase those dynamics... no I think there's alot of craft in mastering something well. But your point here is that 10K Days isn't mastered well, and I think you're right. It's not mastered poorly in a commercial way, but it's not mastered in a very artistic way.

I'm sorry you assumed I didnt have an equal knowledge base to you.
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10-05-2006, 04:40 PM

Do you understand what compression means? It's pulling the highs and lows together. Listen "So Did We" by Isis, that song is compressed to hell. The loud distorted guitar and screaming vocals are equally as loud as the clean soft guitar parts. When I saw them live, it became apparent to me why they do this--their music lends itself to that. Isis is not Opeth. They do not scream one minute and sing and go quiet the next.

I've never heard anyone criticize Dying Fetus for having no dynamic range. it's true, they don't have any. But they are death metal, they don't need any.

As I write this, I'm listening to a couple of your songs from your pure volume thing and...so far I don't see any need for you to compress anything. I'm not dissing your music, it's actually not so bad (if it was it would already be swtiched off) but so far there isn't much quiet stuff. There's a little. My point is, there's not much for you to compress when the music is already loud. It reminds me of System of a Down. Even the quiet parts are loud.

Sometimes, compression isn't bad, like with the Isis example. Gardenian has a similar style as well. It works for them. But for bands like Tool, they need the dynamic range.

And I disagree with you strongly that compression boosts energy. So what has more energy, a quiet part followed by a loud explosion, or a long string of loud parts that have no volume changes?

I really hope that when you're mastering your music in the studio, you create it with the audiophile in mind. Not everything needs to peak at -0.1db to be full of energy. You don't need to blast the quiet parts in your face to get energy. And at the same time, as you pointed out, you need to bring the quieter parts up to get them into the song. Mastering is a delicate process.

Many people (especially at hydrogenaudio forums) put way too much stock into ReplayGain. I didn't mention it in this thread at all, because I think that's crap.

I think maybe if certain songs like Vicarious, WFM, and RIT had more care taken to their soft passages, I'd be delighted.
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Old 10-05-2006, 04:40 PM   #32
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Re: 10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

Do you understand what compression means? It's pulling the highs and lows together. Listen "So Did We" by Isis, that song is compressed to hell. The loud distorted guitar and screaming vocals are equally as loud as the clean soft guitar parts. When I saw them live, it became apparent to me why they do this--their music lends itself to that. Isis is not Opeth. They do not scream one minute and sing and go quiet the next.

I've never heard anyone criticize Dying Fetus for having no dynamic range. it's true, they don't have any. But they are death metal, they don't need any.

As I write this, I'm listening to a couple of your songs from your pure volume thing and...so far I don't see any need for you to compress anything. I'm not dissing your music, it's actually not so bad (if it was it would already be swtiched off) but so far there isn't much quiet stuff. There's a little. My point is, there's not much for you to compress when the music is already loud. It reminds me of System of a Down. Even the quiet parts are loud.

Sometimes, compression isn't bad, like with the Isis example. Gardenian has a similar style as well. It works for them. But for bands like Tool, they need the dynamic range.

And I disagree with you strongly that compression boosts energy. So what has more energy, a quiet part followed by a loud explosion, or a long string of loud parts that have no volume changes?

I really hope that when you're mastering your music in the studio, you create it with the audiophile in mind. Not everything needs to peak at -0.1db to be full of energy. You don't need to blast the quiet parts in your face to get energy. And at the same time, as you pointed out, you need to bring the quieter parts up to get them into the song. Mastering is a delicate process.

Many people (especially at hydrogenaudio forums) put way too much stock into ReplayGain. I didn't mention it in this thread at all, because I think that's crap.

I think maybe if certain songs like Vicarious, WFM, and RIT had more care taken to their soft passages, I'd be delighted.
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apathetic goat's Avatar apathetic goat
10-05-2006, 04:41 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by futant55 View Post
I still don't see how you are saying that wings for marie is clipping. Look at this peak it's the closest one to 7:10. It's a very round peak and no clipping. I drewin next to it in shitty white what a clipped peak would look like. Tell me if I'm misunderstanding something. I do my own recording and I've learned to fix clips and if I'm wrong here I would like to know what's right for my own benefit.
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g1...mariepeaks.jpg
As far as I can tell, that's a function of the program you're viewing the WAV in. It uses a formula to make a nice smooth curve between the dots, so that it LOOKS better to you.
Old 10-05-2006, 04:41 PM   #33
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Re: 10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by futant55 View Post
I still don't see how you are saying that wings for marie is clipping. Look at this peak it's the closest one to 7:10. It's a very round peak and no clipping. I drewin next to it in shitty white what a clipped peak would look like. Tell me if I'm misunderstanding something. I do my own recording and I've learned to fix clips and if I'm wrong here I would like to know what's right for my own benefit.
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g1...mariepeaks.jpg
As far as I can tell, that's a function of the program you're viewing the WAV in. It uses a formula to make a nice smooth curve between the dots, so that it LOOKS better to you.
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10-05-2006, 04:52 PM

Quote:
Normalization is a form of compression; it's on the extreme end. So what has more energy, a quiet part followed by a loud explosion, or a long string of loud parts that have no volume changes?
Umm, eh? All normalisation does is move the highest peak to 0db, and raise or lower all the other peaks in proportion. It is nothing like compression. As you say, compression squeezes the high peaks and brings the lower peaks up, but normalisation does not alter the proportions of the peaks at all. You say it's the extreme form, which is completely wrong, so I think you've confused normalisation and hard limiting.

I don't think it's just the volume that gives things energy and that isn't what I'm suggesting, but a good deal of energy can be gained by specialised use of compression. The concept of masking lets you get away with a certain amount of compression without the literal artefacts being noticeable, so you can, for example, squeeze the top end of the signal so that the shimmer of the cymbals reaches up to the distorted guitars. The interplay between the two dynamics helps to inject some energy into the soundscape. Not particularly volume, because as you say, compression is about equalising the volume between high peaks and low peaks.

It's not that I don't understand what compression is, I think you maybe don't get some of the psychoacoustic ideas involved. That is, the difference between actuality and perception.

If you'd like to hear an unmastered track of mine compared to a mastered track, I can do that, so you can here the difference in, I dunno, vibrancy between the two.

Oh and don't listen on pure volume, their streaming is fucking awful.

Last edited by Jimmeny; 10-05-2006 at 05:06 PM..
Old 10-05-2006, 04:52 PM   #34
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Re: 10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

Quote:
Normalization is a form of compression; it's on the extreme end. So what has more energy, a quiet part followed by a loud explosion, or a long string of loud parts that have no volume changes?
Umm, eh? All normalisation does is move the highest peak to 0db, and raise or lower all the other peaks in proportion. It is nothing like compression. As you say, compression squeezes the high peaks and brings the lower peaks up, but normalisation does not alter the proportions of the peaks at all. You say it's the extreme form, which is completely wrong, so I think you've confused normalisation and hard limiting.

I don't think it's just the volume that gives things energy and that isn't what I'm suggesting, but a good deal of energy can be gained by specialised use of compression. The concept of masking lets you get away with a certain amount of compression without the literal artefacts being noticeable, so you can, for example, squeeze the top end of the signal so that the shimmer of the cymbals reaches up to the distorted guitars. The interplay between the two dynamics helps to inject some energy into the soundscape. Not particularly volume, because as you say, compression is about equalising the volume between high peaks and low peaks.

It's not that I don't understand what compression is, I think you maybe don't get some of the psychoacoustic ideas involved. That is, the difference between actuality and perception.

If you'd like to hear an unmastered track of mine compared to a mastered track, I can do that, so you can here the difference in, I dunno, vibrancy between the two.

Oh and don't listen on pure volume, their streaming is fucking awful.

Last edited by Jimmeny; 10-05-2006 at 05:06 PM..
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scorectum
10-05-2006, 05:06 PM

i can tell you as someone without a degree in audio engineering that i can hear white noise at times, bad clipping, and the loud parts are just as loud as the quiet parts..

the heavy section in wings has no impact because it's quiet. i have an easier time banging to it when i play it on my accoustic guitar. the "shit never happens ta ME!" heavy part in the rosetta verses has no real impact on the cd either. there are many moments on the album ruined by this... the ending of jambi, the climax in wings, the quiet section in Vicarious; all brought down by the compression, clipping, and/or white noise (listen to the storm fade in on wings, it's louder than the thunder), imo..

i also dislike the mix.. the vocals and drums would have been better on top imo, and i think the fact that they're as quiet as they are in relation to guitar and bass at all times is a part of the reason they get so much criticism.. listening closely, the vocals (most of the time) are Maynard in his top form, and the drums are easily Danny's best, but buried..
Old 10-05-2006, 05:06 PM   #35
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Re: 10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

i can tell you as someone without a degree in audio engineering that i can hear white noise at times, bad clipping, and the loud parts are just as loud as the quiet parts..

the heavy section in wings has no impact because it's quiet. i have an easier time banging to it when i play it on my accoustic guitar. the "shit never happens ta ME!" heavy part in the rosetta verses has no real impact on the cd either. there are many moments on the album ruined by this... the ending of jambi, the climax in wings, the quiet section in Vicarious; all brought down by the compression, clipping, and/or white noise (listen to the storm fade in on wings, it's louder than the thunder), imo..

i also dislike the mix.. the vocals and drums would have been better on top imo, and i think the fact that they're as quiet as they are in relation to guitar and bass at all times is a part of the reason they get so much criticism.. listening closely, the vocals (most of the time) are Maynard in his top form, and the drums are easily Danny's best, but buried..
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10-05-2006, 10:02 PM

Thankyou hushypushy - I really learnt something this afternoon. Very interesting. I appreciate the time you took to show us something.
Old 10-05-2006, 10:02 PM   #36
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Re: 10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

Thankyou hushypushy - I really learnt something this afternoon. Very interesting. I appreciate the time you took to show us something.
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10-06-2006, 10:51 AM

Just wanted to show a very very well done track by Baressi...this is Asteroid by Kyuss, off Welcome to Sky Valley from 1994. Great dynamics, fantastic stereo programming (of vocals, the different guitars, drums and bass), no clipping, etc. Why couldn't you make WFM look like this, Joe? :(

Asteroid
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Old 10-06-2006, 10:51 AM   #37
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Re: 10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

Just wanted to show a very very well done track by Baressi...this is Asteroid by Kyuss, off Welcome to Sky Valley from 1994. Great dynamics, fantastic stereo programming (of vocals, the different guitars, drums and bass), no clipping, etc. Why couldn't you make WFM look like this, Joe? :(

Asteroid
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10-06-2006, 10:59 AM

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Originally Posted by hushypushy View Post
I'd have to say An excellent example: go to 4:10 in Wings pt 1. Or maybe earlier. But listen when the heavy part comes in. It's this quiet stuff and then then a loud riff hits. But uh....it has absolutely no impact.
I noticed that myself when i heard it! Adams heavy part should be more dramatic than it is but it doesnt hit you in any way because the volume didnt change and the intensity didnt change. i agree the rest of the song needs to be quieter if that heavy riff is to have any significance what so ever.
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Old 10-06-2006, 10:59 AM   #38
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Re: 10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hushypushy View Post
I'd have to say An excellent example: go to 4:10 in Wings pt 1. Or maybe earlier. But listen when the heavy part comes in. It's this quiet stuff and then then a loud riff hits. But uh....it has absolutely no impact.
I noticed that myself when i heard it! Adams heavy part should be more dramatic than it is but it doesnt hit you in any way because the volume didnt change and the intensity didnt change. i agree the rest of the song needs to be quieter if that heavy riff is to have any significance what so ever.
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scorectum
10-06-2006, 06:21 PM

it really sounds like a quality album that was burned to a disc with WMP and the "make all volume equal" setting on..
Old 10-06-2006, 06:21 PM   #39
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Re: 10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

it really sounds like a quality album that was burned to a disc with WMP and the "make all volume equal" setting on..
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10-07-2006, 06:56 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by hushypushy View Post
I'm hoping that some kind of "director's cut", that magical 96khz/24bit master that Baressi claims is lying around somewhere will eventually see the light of day, maybe a bit quieter with a bit more dynamic range...Seriously, Wings for Marie (both songs) are destroyed for me due to lack of dynamic range. But that is a story for another thread ;)
Link to where he talks about this?
Old 10-07-2006, 06:56 PM   #40
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Re: 10,000 Days IS compressed to hell.

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Originally Posted by hushypushy View Post
I'm hoping that some kind of "director's cut", that magical 96khz/24bit master that Baressi claims is lying around somewhere will eventually see the light of day, maybe a bit quieter with a bit more dynamic range...Seriously, Wings for Marie (both songs) are destroyed for me due to lack of dynamic range. But that is a story for another thread ;)
Link to where he talks about this?
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