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spacemonkeyadb's Avatar spacemonkeyadb
08-09-2006, 05:41 AM
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I apologize if this has been discussed elsewhere, but I looked briefly and didn't find anything.

I'd like to know what people think this line is intended to mean within the context of the song:

"Move by will alone"

I don't have any definite take on this at the moment, but here are my thoughts:

The song seems to be a tale of the progression of a (non-specific) individual from birth to death detailing his or her moral development, and maybe alternating between the positive and negative aspects (as discussed in the "female/male duality" thread). And maybe it's also a tale of the progression and development of humanity in general.

I'm thinking that the line above is meant kind of sarcastically, as in saying that we all think (or would like to think) that we are "moved by will alone", i.e. that we make our moral choices of our own free will with the aid of reason, but that in fact our progression (or lack thereof) is determined by our rather pathetic animal nature or genetic constitution that (within the song at least) we fail to overcome.

Or maybe it's different, and the song is saying that we really are "moved by will alone", such that our poor moral choices and inability to overcome our animal instincts really are the result of our will, and that we are responsible for what results from this weakness of will.

What do you think this line is meant to communicate to us? I'd welcome any further insight anyone has on this.
Old 08-09-2006, 05:41 AM   #1
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Move by will alone...?

I apologize if this has been discussed elsewhere, but I looked briefly and didn't find anything.

I'd like to know what people think this line is intended to mean within the context of the song:

"Move by will alone"

I don't have any definite take on this at the moment, but here are my thoughts:

The song seems to be a tale of the progression of a (non-specific) individual from birth to death detailing his or her moral development, and maybe alternating between the positive and negative aspects (as discussed in the "female/male duality" thread). And maybe it's also a tale of the progression and development of humanity in general.

I'm thinking that the line above is meant kind of sarcastically, as in saying that we all think (or would like to think) that we are "moved by will alone", i.e. that we make our moral choices of our own free will with the aid of reason, but that in fact our progression (or lack thereof) is determined by our rather pathetic animal nature or genetic constitution that (within the song at least) we fail to overcome.

Or maybe it's different, and the song is saying that we really are "moved by will alone", such that our poor moral choices and inability to overcome our animal instincts really are the result of our will, and that we are responsible for what results from this weakness of will.

What do you think this line is meant to communicate to us? I'd welcome any further insight anyone has on this.
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Dredg's Avatar Dredg
08-09-2006, 06:37 AM
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(both these paragraphs from previous threads)

Move by will alone, to me, means that life emerged from the basic building blocks of the Universe. Whatever the random molecules and different kinds of energy that combined to form life continues to sort of dictate how we act now. Consequently we do not have free will, but a mixture of choice and chemical reactions. To humans it is hard to understand that we operate the same way a toad thinks and feels or how a star forms. Humans like all things in the Universe move by will alone - all connected together to form one cohesive force.


The point of this song is that human beings emerged just like the rest of the natural universe, except humans are able to percieve and be aware. The result of this emergence is hard on humans because we are a product of a chaotic and confusing system (the universe). It is up to humans to use the tool of consciousness to expand upon reality even though we have absolutely NO UNDERSTANDING OF IT. Right in two illustrates how humans are not using consciousness as a tool to expand and understand reality.


This song is about the development of human consciousness and the begining of human evolution. Maynard brings up the first fire man ignited as well as discription of how the universe is a chaotic system. As he said in vicarious the universe is a hostile place and therefore, humans are a product of it. Maynard is illustrating the development of man into this chaotic reality, sort of as if this reality corrupted something that was pure. This song is an attachment to Right in two. Intension disscusses man's entre into reality and Right In Two discusses how man uses reality - the begining and the present.
Old 08-09-2006, 06:37 AM   #2
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Re: Move by will alone...?

(both these paragraphs from previous threads)

Move by will alone, to me, means that life emerged from the basic building blocks of the Universe. Whatever the random molecules and different kinds of energy that combined to form life continues to sort of dictate how we act now. Consequently we do not have free will, but a mixture of choice and chemical reactions. To humans it is hard to understand that we operate the same way a toad thinks and feels or how a star forms. Humans like all things in the Universe move by will alone - all connected together to form one cohesive force.


The point of this song is that human beings emerged just like the rest of the natural universe, except humans are able to percieve and be aware. The result of this emergence is hard on humans because we are a product of a chaotic and confusing system (the universe). It is up to humans to use the tool of consciousness to expand upon reality even though we have absolutely NO UNDERSTANDING OF IT. Right in two illustrates how humans are not using consciousness as a tool to expand and understand reality.


This song is about the development of human consciousness and the begining of human evolution. Maynard brings up the first fire man ignited as well as discription of how the universe is a chaotic system. As he said in vicarious the universe is a hostile place and therefore, humans are a product of it. Maynard is illustrating the development of man into this chaotic reality, sort of as if this reality corrupted something that was pure. This song is an attachment to Right in two. Intension disscusses man's entre into reality and Right In Two discusses how man uses reality - the begining and the present.
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spacemonkeyadb's Avatar spacemonkeyadb
08-09-2006, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dredg
Move by will alone, to me, means that life emerged from the basic building blocks of the Universe. Whatever the random molecules and different kinds of energy that combined to form life continues to sort of dictate how we act now. Consequently we do not have free will, but a mixture of choice and chemical reactions.
Thanks, but could you elaborate a little on how you get to this from the line in question? The basic building blocks of the universe don't seem to have any obvious will. "Will"=human will? =Something else? And are you kind of agreeing with my first guess that the line is meant sarcastically (i.e. we believe it but are wrong)?

Last edited by spacemonkeyadb; 08-09-2006 at 06:49 AM..
Old 08-09-2006, 06:46 AM   #3
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Re: Move by will alone...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dredg
Move by will alone, to me, means that life emerged from the basic building blocks of the Universe. Whatever the random molecules and different kinds of energy that combined to form life continues to sort of dictate how we act now. Consequently we do not have free will, but a mixture of choice and chemical reactions.
Thanks, but could you elaborate a little on how you get to this from the line in question? The basic building blocks of the universe don't seem to have any obvious will. "Will"=human will? =Something else? And are you kind of agreeing with my first guess that the line is meant sarcastically (i.e. we believe it but are wrong)?

Last edited by spacemonkeyadb; 08-09-2006 at 06:49 AM..
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Carbonatedgravy
08-09-2006, 07:00 AM
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I took the line as an expression of selfish desire and instinct as opposed to acting out of morality or the good of others. As if the subject of the song is doing what is good for themself exclusively, acting upon their own wants and wishes while discarding the needs of the rest. A simple interpretation I know, but I believe this fits the context of the rest of the song.
Old 08-09-2006, 07:00 AM   #4
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Re: Move by will alone...?

I took the line as an expression of selfish desire and instinct as opposed to acting out of morality or the good of others. As if the subject of the song is doing what is good for themself exclusively, acting upon their own wants and wishes while discarding the needs of the rest. A simple interpretation I know, but I believe this fits the context of the rest of the song.
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Dredg's Avatar Dredg
08-09-2006, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spacemonkeyadb
Thanks, but could you elaborate a little on how you get to this from the line in question? The basic building blocks of the universe don't seem to have any obvious will. "Will"=human will? =Something else? And are you kind of agreeing with my first guess that the line is meant sarcastically (i.e. we believe it but are wrong)?


This is an example how there is somewhat of a "design" "determination" "desire" or as the song goes "WILL" to the Universe.


Quote:
The nuclear strong force holds together the particles in the nucleus of an atom. If the strong nuclear force were slightly weaker, by as little as 2%, multi-proton nuclei would not hold together and hydrogen would be the only element in the universe. If the strong force were slightly stronger, by as little as 1%, hydrogen would be rare in the universe and elements heavier than iron (elements resulting from fusion during the explosion of supernovae) would also be rare.
Humans are a product of the Universe, therefore, have the same sort of design, determination, and desire. These things are known as will, "moved by Universal will".

The line is not meant sarcastically because the ONE line you picked out connects to the rest of the lyrics in the song.

Just like what I said before, Maynard describes in the song. Chemical reactions are the driving force in human nature "Spark becomes a flame, flame becomes a fire". The story continues in Right in Two, how humans have the desire/determination, but do not control it - instead humans use it to control other humans. "Father" blessed them all with reason, but humans keep killing each other.
Old 08-09-2006, 07:02 AM   #5
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Re: Move by will alone...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by spacemonkeyadb
Thanks, but could you elaborate a little on how you get to this from the line in question? The basic building blocks of the universe don't seem to have any obvious will. "Will"=human will? =Something else? And are you kind of agreeing with my first guess that the line is meant sarcastically (i.e. we believe it but are wrong)?


This is an example how there is somewhat of a "design" "determination" "desire" or as the song goes "WILL" to the Universe.


Quote:
The nuclear strong force holds together the particles in the nucleus of an atom. If the strong nuclear force were slightly weaker, by as little as 2%, multi-proton nuclei would not hold together and hydrogen would be the only element in the universe. If the strong force were slightly stronger, by as little as 1%, hydrogen would be rare in the universe and elements heavier than iron (elements resulting from fusion during the explosion of supernovae) would also be rare.
Humans are a product of the Universe, therefore, have the same sort of design, determination, and desire. These things are known as will, "moved by Universal will".

The line is not meant sarcastically because the ONE line you picked out connects to the rest of the lyrics in the song.

Just like what I said before, Maynard describes in the song. Chemical reactions are the driving force in human nature "Spark becomes a flame, flame becomes a fire". The story continues in Right in Two, how humans have the desire/determination, but do not control it - instead humans use it to control other humans. "Father" blessed them all with reason, but humans keep killing each other.
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Dredg's Avatar Dredg
08-09-2006, 07:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbonatedgravy
I took the line as an expression of selfish desire and instinct as opposed to acting out of morality or the good of others. As if the subject of the song is doing what is good for themself exclusively, acting upon their own wants and wishes while discarding the needs of the rest. A simple interpretation I know, but I believe this fits the context of the rest of the song.

I agree. This is the result of the Universe and the way it functions.
Old 08-09-2006, 07:04 AM   #6
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Re: Move by will alone...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbonatedgravy
I took the line as an expression of selfish desire and instinct as opposed to acting out of morality or the good of others. As if the subject of the song is doing what is good for themself exclusively, acting upon their own wants and wishes while discarding the needs of the rest. A simple interpretation I know, but I believe this fits the context of the rest of the song.

I agree. This is the result of the Universe and the way it functions.
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spacemonkeyadb's Avatar spacemonkeyadb
08-09-2006, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbonatedgravy
I took the line as an expression of selfish desire and instinct as opposed to acting out of morality or the good of others. As if the subject of the song is doing what is good for themself exclusively, acting upon their own wants and wishes while discarding the needs of the rest. A simple interpretation I know, but I believe this fits the context of the rest of the song.
Hey yeah! I like that. Don't know why it didn't occur to me before. It makes a lot of sense. Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dredg
Humans are a product of the Universe, therefore, have the same sort of design, determination, and desire. These things are known as will, "moved by Universal will".
I'm leaning towards Carbonatedgravy's idea more at this point, as it strikes me as more straightforward.
I think most people would intuitively want to make a strong distinction between blind force or determination (universal will if you like) on the one hand, and conscious (human) will and desire on the other, so this idea doesn't quite work for me.
I'm not assuming that this distinction is valid, just that it's a common one, which makes your take on this line seem a little less probable.

Last edited by spacemonkeyadb; 08-09-2006 at 07:19 AM..
Old 08-09-2006, 07:06 AM   #7
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Re: Move by will alone...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbonatedgravy
I took the line as an expression of selfish desire and instinct as opposed to acting out of morality or the good of others. As if the subject of the song is doing what is good for themself exclusively, acting upon their own wants and wishes while discarding the needs of the rest. A simple interpretation I know, but I believe this fits the context of the rest of the song.
Hey yeah! I like that. Don't know why it didn't occur to me before. It makes a lot of sense. Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dredg
Humans are a product of the Universe, therefore, have the same sort of design, determination, and desire. These things are known as will, "moved by Universal will".
I'm leaning towards Carbonatedgravy's idea more at this point, as it strikes me as more straightforward.
I think most people would intuitively want to make a strong distinction between blind force or determination (universal will if you like) on the one hand, and conscious (human) will and desire on the other, so this idea doesn't quite work for me.
I'm not assuming that this distinction is valid, just that it's a common one, which makes your take on this line seem a little less probable.

Last edited by spacemonkeyadb; 08-09-2006 at 07:19 AM..
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Dredg's Avatar Dredg
08-09-2006, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spacemonkeyadb
Hey yeah! I like that. Don't know why it didn't occur to me before. It makes a lot of sense. Thanks.



I'm leaning towards Carbonatedgravy's idea more at this point, as it strikes me as more straightforward.
I think most people would intuitively want to make a strong distinction between blind force or determination (universal will if you like) on the one hand, and conscious (human) will and desire on the other, so this idea doesn't quite work for me.
I'm not assuming that this distinction is valid, just that it's a common one, which makes your take on this line seem a little less probable.

I am not quite sure what you mean. I think my interpertation is about the WHOLE song, where as you are just looking at one lyric. Carbon is right in that "expression of selfish desire and instinct" is part of humans and this type of will exists to this day, but he is leaving out rest of the lyrics in the song.
Old 08-09-2006, 07:47 AM   #8
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Re: Move by will alone...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by spacemonkeyadb
Hey yeah! I like that. Don't know why it didn't occur to me before. It makes a lot of sense. Thanks.



I'm leaning towards Carbonatedgravy's idea more at this point, as it strikes me as more straightforward.
I think most people would intuitively want to make a strong distinction between blind force or determination (universal will if you like) on the one hand, and conscious (human) will and desire on the other, so this idea doesn't quite work for me.
I'm not assuming that this distinction is valid, just that it's a common one, which makes your take on this line seem a little less probable.

I am not quite sure what you mean. I think my interpertation is about the WHOLE song, where as you are just looking at one lyric. Carbon is right in that "expression of selfish desire and instinct" is part of humans and this type of will exists to this day, but he is leaving out rest of the lyrics in the song.
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spacemonkeyadb's Avatar spacemonkeyadb
08-09-2006, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dredg
I am not quite sure what you mean. I think my interpertation is about the WHOLE song, where as you are just looking at one lyric. Carbon is right in that "expression of selfish desire and instinct" is part of humans and this type of will exists to this day, but he is leaving out rest of the lyrics in the song.
I think your overall interpretation of the full song is right on. I'm just looking at how you relate this particular line ("move by will alone") to the rest of the lyrics, so this is why I am focusing on this part.

Carbonatedgravy says that it's selfish "human will" that ignores the needs of others. We are moved by (selfish) will alone, and not by concern for other people.

Your view seems to go beyond this by claiming that this selfish human will is merely symptomatic of a deeper "universal will" that determines how we act (via physics, chemistry, etc).
I'm not against this idea, but I don't think everybody would want to label these cosmic forces as "will", and I think many would even want to contrast these forces with "will" in the regular human sense.
If most people would not recognize this use of "will" as universal will, then most people would miss the meaning of the line, IF this is what was meant by it.

So this is why I'm not convinced that this was the intended meaning for the line.

Last edited by spacemonkeyadb; 08-09-2006 at 08:17 AM..
Old 08-09-2006, 08:13 AM   #9
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Re: Move by will alone...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dredg
I am not quite sure what you mean. I think my interpertation is about the WHOLE song, where as you are just looking at one lyric. Carbon is right in that "expression of selfish desire and instinct" is part of humans and this type of will exists to this day, but he is leaving out rest of the lyrics in the song.
I think your overall interpretation of the full song is right on. I'm just looking at how you relate this particular line ("move by will alone") to the rest of the lyrics, so this is why I am focusing on this part.

Carbonatedgravy says that it's selfish "human will" that ignores the needs of others. We are moved by (selfish) will alone, and not by concern for other people.

Your view seems to go beyond this by claiming that this selfish human will is merely symptomatic of a deeper "universal will" that determines how we act (via physics, chemistry, etc).
I'm not against this idea, but I don't think everybody would want to label these cosmic forces as "will", and I think many would even want to contrast these forces with "will" in the regular human sense.
If most people would not recognize this use of "will" as universal will, then most people would miss the meaning of the line, IF this is what was meant by it.

So this is why I'm not convinced that this was the intended meaning for the line.

Last edited by spacemonkeyadb; 08-09-2006 at 08:17 AM..
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Dredg's Avatar Dredg
08-09-2006, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spacemonkeyadb
I think your overall interpretation of the full song is right on. I'm just looking at how you relate this particular line ("move by will alone") to the rest of the lyrics, so this is why I am focusing on this part.

Carbonatedgravy says that it's selfish "human will" that ignores the needs of others. We are moved by (selfish) will alone, and not by concern for other people.

Your view seems to go beyond this by claiming that this selfish human will is merely symptomatic of a deeper "universal will" that determines how we act (via physics, chemistry, etc).
I'm not against this idea, but I don't think everybody would want to label these cosmic forces as "will", and I think many would even want to contrast these forces with "will" in the regular human sense.
If most people would not recognize this use of "will" as universal will, then most people would miss the meaning of the line, IF this is what was meant by it.

So this is why I'm not convinced that this was the intended meaning for the line.

so we can agree that Maynard is associating "will" with "instinct"?
Old 08-09-2006, 08:39 AM   #10
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Re: Move by will alone...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by spacemonkeyadb
I think your overall interpretation of the full song is right on. I'm just looking at how you relate this particular line ("move by will alone") to the rest of the lyrics, so this is why I am focusing on this part.

Carbonatedgravy says that it's selfish "human will" that ignores the needs of others. We are moved by (selfish) will alone, and not by concern for other people.

Your view seems to go beyond this by claiming that this selfish human will is merely symptomatic of a deeper "universal will" that determines how we act (via physics, chemistry, etc).
I'm not against this idea, but I don't think everybody would want to label these cosmic forces as "will", and I think many would even want to contrast these forces with "will" in the regular human sense.
If most people would not recognize this use of "will" as universal will, then most people would miss the meaning of the line, IF this is what was meant by it.

So this is why I'm not convinced that this was the intended meaning for the line.

so we can agree that Maynard is associating "will" with "instinct"?
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spacemonkeyadb's Avatar spacemonkeyadb
08-09-2006, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dredg
so we can agree that Maynard is associating "will" with "instinct"?
Hmmm. I'm not sure. I would usually equate "will" with conscious choice, as opposed to instinctive behaviour. But maybe that's just me.
It's possible Maynard could be equating them here, as in:
"move by will alone" = our behaviour is being determined by our animal instincts rather than any kind of rational decision-making.
It's not a connection I would naturally make though.
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Old 08-09-2006, 09:12 AM   #11
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Re: Move by will alone...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dredg
so we can agree that Maynard is associating "will" with "instinct"?
Hmmm. I'm not sure. I would usually equate "will" with conscious choice, as opposed to instinctive behaviour. But maybe that's just me.
It's possible Maynard could be equating them here, as in:
"move by will alone" = our behaviour is being determined by our animal instincts rather than any kind of rational decision-making.
It's not a connection I would naturally make though.
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08-09-2006, 09:56 AM
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Move by will alone
not by fear
not by money
not by sex
but move by will alone
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Old 08-09-2006, 09:56 AM   #12
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Re: Move by will alone...?

Move by will alone
not by fear
not by money
not by sex
but move by will alone
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08-09-2006, 10:03 AM
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And hopefully your will is for the greater good of mother earth - raising consciousness/vibration/light
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Old 08-09-2006, 10:03 AM   #13
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Re: Move by will alone...?

And hopefully your will is for the greater good of mother earth - raising consciousness/vibration/light
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Carbonatedgravy
08-09-2006, 01:18 PM
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I think in the context of the song, equating "will" with "instinct" makes a lot of sense. Will is synonymous with desire, and our desires are driven by our needs to reproduce, live comfortably, eat, sleep, etc. Humans have the ability to break away from our instincts which is unique to the species, but most people never do that. Even though we have freedom of choice, we generally neglect choices that differ from our most base instincts. So looking at the big picture and comparing this to universal situations is certainly valid, but I don't find it necessary. The point, much like the point of "Right in Two" is that humans neglect their ability to help each other and to behave morally and instead cling to instincts which are often destructive.

I also believe that the line "Pure as we begin" is somewhat sarcastic or at least melancholic and stands in direct contrast to "Move by will alone." It is true that we begin pure and without influence, but we're bound to be enslaved by our own instincts sooner or later, as well as the nurturing of the society we live in.

In one sentence, the song is about human rejection of morality.
Old 08-09-2006, 01:18 PM   #14
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Re: Move by will alone...?

I think in the context of the song, equating "will" with "instinct" makes a lot of sense. Will is synonymous with desire, and our desires are driven by our needs to reproduce, live comfortably, eat, sleep, etc. Humans have the ability to break away from our instincts which is unique to the species, but most people never do that. Even though we have freedom of choice, we generally neglect choices that differ from our most base instincts. So looking at the big picture and comparing this to universal situations is certainly valid, but I don't find it necessary. The point, much like the point of "Right in Two" is that humans neglect their ability to help each other and to behave morally and instead cling to instincts which are often destructive.

I also believe that the line "Pure as we begin" is somewhat sarcastic or at least melancholic and stands in direct contrast to "Move by will alone." It is true that we begin pure and without influence, but we're bound to be enslaved by our own instincts sooner or later, as well as the nurturing of the society we live in.

In one sentence, the song is about human rejection of morality.
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08-09-2006, 02:33 PM
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the way i took the line is that it relates to the song immediatley following, right in two. what i mean is in right in two he talks about free will. the line in intension goes "move by will alone" and what i think that means is that; with our free will we do as we please be it motivated by one thing or another, but we choose what we do. and throughout the rest of the song maynard kind of gives examples that to me hes basically saying saying "do something positive or negative, just as long as you know to expect the consequences." move by will alone, choose what you will but why not make it a good one, a choice to benefit all? pure as we begin, we arent really born into any sin we are a total blank slate...how do so many become corrupt?
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Old 08-09-2006, 02:33 PM   #15
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Re: Move by will alone...?

the way i took the line is that it relates to the song immediatley following, right in two. what i mean is in right in two he talks about free will. the line in intension goes "move by will alone" and what i think that means is that; with our free will we do as we please be it motivated by one thing or another, but we choose what we do. and throughout the rest of the song maynard kind of gives examples that to me hes basically saying saying "do something positive or negative, just as long as you know to expect the consequences." move by will alone, choose what you will but why not make it a good one, a choice to benefit all? pure as we begin, we arent really born into any sin we are a total blank slate...how do so many become corrupt?
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Carbonatedgravy
08-09-2006, 03:51 PM
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That makes some sense, but I don't think the song is that optimistic. Yes, we make our own choices, but these songs discuss what these choices have traditionally been and not what they could be. (Lateralus did that.) Like Right in Two, the song is observational and critical but it doesn't offer a solution or any advice, at least directly. This whole album follows the same theme and narrative. These two songs spell out problems with humanity, defining them and leaving the problem solving to the listener. Intension and Right in Two are broad looks at history and that which has always been.
Old 08-09-2006, 03:51 PM   #16
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Re: Move by will alone...?

That makes some sense, but I don't think the song is that optimistic. Yes, we make our own choices, but these songs discuss what these choices have traditionally been and not what they could be. (Lateralus did that.) Like Right in Two, the song is observational and critical but it doesn't offer a solution or any advice, at least directly. This whole album follows the same theme and narrative. These two songs spell out problems with humanity, defining them and leaving the problem solving to the listener. Intension and Right in Two are broad looks at history and that which has always been.
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08-09-2006, 03:51 PM
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Although in the context of the song I believe this interpretation to be wrong, when looking at the line alone I think of it very differently. Move by will alone, in consideration with Tool's spiritual nature to me is instead of moving by traditional means (walk, bike, car etc.) we will literally move by will alone. Think of it in an imaginative sense, for those that lucid dream you know what I mean. When you are lucid dreaming you will something to happen, and it does. Seeing as how dreaming is the closest to Heaven I've ever been, I believe that the proposed spiritual revolution (if it comes) is going to bring Heaven on Earth and allow us to "move by will alone".

Edit: Seeing as how I am so observant I didn't notice you said WITHIN the context of the song...either way I like my idea, even if it is totally off-topic.

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Old 08-09-2006, 03:51 PM   #17
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Re: Move by will alone...?

Although in the context of the song I believe this interpretation to be wrong, when looking at the line alone I think of it very differently. Move by will alone, in consideration with Tool's spiritual nature to me is instead of moving by traditional means (walk, bike, car etc.) we will literally move by will alone. Think of it in an imaginative sense, for those that lucid dream you know what I mean. When you are lucid dreaming you will something to happen, and it does. Seeing as how dreaming is the closest to Heaven I've ever been, I believe that the proposed spiritual revolution (if it comes) is going to bring Heaven on Earth and allow us to "move by will alone".

Edit: Seeing as how I am so observant I didn't notice you said WITHIN the context of the song...either way I like my idea, even if it is totally off-topic.

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08-10-2006, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbonatedgravy
I also believe that the line "Pure as we begin" is somewhat sarcastic or at least melancholic and stands in direct contrast to "Move by will alone." It is true that we begin pure and without influence, but we're bound to be enslaved by our own instincts sooner or later, as well as the nurturing of the society we live in.

In one sentence, the song is about human rejection of morality.

How can there be a rejection though? The paradox of the song is that humans should self-reflect on the way concsiousness entered into the mix. This would mean that humans ought to try to understand where we came from (ex. Pure as we begin). However, Maynard also realizes that many people actually don't reflect on human existence ( ex. Forge a blade to slay the stranger, Take whatever we desire).

Maynard figures that since we came from the Universe, we are a product of the Universe, therefore, act accordingly to the process of how the Universe functions
( ex: Pure as we begin
Here we have a stone
Gather, place, [erase, so / a razor]
Shelter turned to home

Pure as we begin
Here we have a stone
Throw to stay the stranger
Swore to crush his bones)

This would mean humans are impersonal and hostile by nature, but also can use consciousness for more productive things, such as using a rock to build a house instead of killing someone. The only real way to get back to our pure existence is by going back to our basic state (Pure as we begin, Move by will alone, Leave as we come in, Pure as light, return to one - MOVE BY WILL ALONE)

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Old 08-10-2006, 07:28 AM   #18
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Re: Move by will alone...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbonatedgravy
I also believe that the line "Pure as we begin" is somewhat sarcastic or at least melancholic and stands in direct contrast to "Move by will alone." It is true that we begin pure and without influence, but we're bound to be enslaved by our own instincts sooner or later, as well as the nurturing of the society we live in.

In one sentence, the song is about human rejection of morality.

How can there be a rejection though? The paradox of the song is that humans should self-reflect on the way concsiousness entered into the mix. This would mean that humans ought to try to understand where we came from (ex. Pure as we begin). However, Maynard also realizes that many people actually don't reflect on human existence ( ex. Forge a blade to slay the stranger, Take whatever we desire).

Maynard figures that since we came from the Universe, we are a product of the Universe, therefore, act accordingly to the process of how the Universe functions
( ex: Pure as we begin
Here we have a stone
Gather, place, [erase, so / a razor]
Shelter turned to home

Pure as we begin
Here we have a stone
Throw to stay the stranger
Swore to crush his bones)

This would mean humans are impersonal and hostile by nature, but also can use consciousness for more productive things, such as using a rock to build a house instead of killing someone. The only real way to get back to our pure existence is by going back to our basic state (Pure as we begin, Move by will alone, Leave as we come in, Pure as light, return to one - MOVE BY WILL ALONE)

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Carbonatedgravy
08-10-2006, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dredg
How can there be a rejection though? The paradox of the song is that humans should self-reflect on the way concsiousness entered into the mix. This would mean that humans ought to try to understand where we came from (ex. Pure as we begin). However, Maynard also realizes that many people actually don't reflect on human existence ( ex. Forge a blade to slay the stranger, Take whatever we desire).

Maynard figures that since we came from the Universe, we are a product of the Universe, therefore, act accordingly to the process of how the Universe functions
( ex: Pure as we begin
Here we have a stone
Gather, place, [erase, so / a razor]
Shelter turned to home

Pure as we begin
Here we have a stone
Throw to stay the stranger
Swore to crush his bones)

This would mean humans are impersonal and hostile by nature, but also can use consciousness for more productive things, such as using a rock to build a house instead of killing someone. The only real way to get back to our pure existence is by going back to our basic state (Pure as we begin, Move by will alone, Leave as we come in, Pure as light, return to one - MOVE BY WILL ALONE)
I'm not sure how that contradicts what I said. But just to clarify in case I'm not understanding you, I believe that by nature humans are born hostile and selfish. We have the unique ability to override our instincts for the better of humanity, but this choice contrasts what our instincts tell us to do. Ideally we would have the strength and morality to lean towards kindness and peace due to our superior intellect, but historically it just doesn't work out that way. All desires and all drives are exclusively in existence for the preservation of the self. So we're only born "pure" in a certain context. We haven't done anything sinful at birth, but we're all born with evil inclination. The only thing I think you and I disagree on is the motive behind the "Pure as we begin" line. You seem to be instilling hope into the line whereas I am not.
Old 08-10-2006, 07:58 AM   #19
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Re: Move by will alone...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dredg
How can there be a rejection though? The paradox of the song is that humans should self-reflect on the way concsiousness entered into the mix. This would mean that humans ought to try to understand where we came from (ex. Pure as we begin). However, Maynard also realizes that many people actually don't reflect on human existence ( ex. Forge a blade to slay the stranger, Take whatever we desire).

Maynard figures that since we came from the Universe, we are a product of the Universe, therefore, act accordingly to the process of how the Universe functions
( ex: Pure as we begin
Here we have a stone
Gather, place, [erase, so / a razor]
Shelter turned to home

Pure as we begin
Here we have a stone
Throw to stay the stranger
Swore to crush his bones)

This would mean humans are impersonal and hostile by nature, but also can use consciousness for more productive things, such as using a rock to build a house instead of killing someone. The only real way to get back to our pure existence is by going back to our basic state (Pure as we begin, Move by will alone, Leave as we come in, Pure as light, return to one - MOVE BY WILL ALONE)
I'm not sure how that contradicts what I said. But just to clarify in case I'm not understanding you, I believe that by nature humans are born hostile and selfish. We have the unique ability to override our instincts for the better of humanity, but this choice contrasts what our instincts tell us to do. Ideally we would have the strength and morality to lean towards kindness and peace due to our superior intellect, but historically it just doesn't work out that way. All desires and all drives are exclusively in existence for the preservation of the self. So we're only born "pure" in a certain context. We haven't done anything sinful at birth, but we're all born with evil inclination. The only thing I think you and I disagree on is the motive behind the "Pure as we begin" line. You seem to be instilling hope into the line whereas I am not.
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08-10-2006, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbonatedgravy
I'm not sure how that contradicts what I said. But just to clarify in case I'm not understanding you, I believe that by nature humans are born hostile and selfish. We have the unique ability to override our instincts for the better of humanity, but this choice contrasts what our instincts tell us to do. Ideally we would have the strength and morality to lean towards kindness and peace due to our superior intellect, but historically it just doesn't work out that way. All desires and all drives are exclusively in existence for the preservation of the self. So we're only born "pure" in a certain context. We haven't done anything sinful at birth, but we're all born with evil inclination. The only thing I think you and I disagree on is the motive behind the "Pure as we begin" line. You seem to be instilling hope into the line whereas I am not.
I view "pure as we begin" as the very basic chemical components that make life up. Carbon, Proteins, amino acids etc. Those all came together to form very basic organisms which then evolved into fish, which then evolved into lizards and small mammals, which those small mammals survived and formed into humans.


Otherwise, yes we do agree on everything.
Old 08-10-2006, 08:04 AM   #20
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Re: Move by will alone...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbonatedgravy
I'm not sure how that contradicts what I said. But just to clarify in case I'm not understanding you, I believe that by nature humans are born hostile and selfish. We have the unique ability to override our instincts for the better of humanity, but this choice contrasts what our instincts tell us to do. Ideally we would have the strength and morality to lean towards kindness and peace due to our superior intellect, but historically it just doesn't work out that way. All desires and all drives are exclusively in existence for the preservation of the self. So we're only born "pure" in a certain context. We haven't done anything sinful at birth, but we're all born with evil inclination. The only thing I think you and I disagree on is the motive behind the "Pure as we begin" line. You seem to be instilling hope into the line whereas I am not.
I view "pure as we begin" as the very basic chemical components that make life up. Carbon, Proteins, amino acids etc. Those all came together to form very basic organisms which then evolved into fish, which then evolved into lizards and small mammals, which those small mammals survived and formed into humans.


Otherwise, yes we do agree on everything.
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08-10-2006, 09:02 AM
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Really? I see it more as the synonym for "innocent." Though "pure" is a much more fitting word since it also implies cleanliness and even ignorance. The only relevance I can see in interpreting the line as a look at literal human composition is that it's an easy way to compare us to our universal surroundings without making a distinction between what makes humans what we are and what makes a giraffe what it is. The expression that all living beings have the same basic drives.

So I think I can see your point, but in this case I get more out of the more emotionally driven use of the word "pure" as it relates to human development specifically.
Old 08-10-2006, 09:02 AM   #21
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Re: Move by will alone...?

Really? I see it more as the synonym for "innocent." Though "pure" is a much more fitting word since it also implies cleanliness and even ignorance. The only relevance I can see in interpreting the line as a look at literal human composition is that it's an easy way to compare us to our universal surroundings without making a distinction between what makes humans what we are and what makes a giraffe what it is. The expression that all living beings have the same basic drives.

So I think I can see your point, but in this case I get more out of the more emotionally driven use of the word "pure" as it relates to human development specifically.
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08-10-2006, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbonatedgravy
Really? I see it more as the synonym for "innocent." Though "pure" is a much more fitting word since it also implies cleanliness and even ignorance. The only relevance I can see in interpreting the line as a look at literal human composition is that it's an easy way to compare us to our universal surroundings without making a distinction between what makes humans what we are and what makes a giraffe what it is. The expression that all living beings have the same basic drives.

So I think I can see your point, but in this case I get more out of the more emotionally driven use of the word "pure" as it relates to human development specifically.
I would agree seeing how chemicals are innocent, therefore, unconscious. The more humans become conscious the more they become corrupt (ex: Right in Two). The reason why I feel pure means the chemical molecules that created us is because of the end of the song.

"Leave as we come in
Pure as light, return to one

Move by will alone"

as you can see we came in and leave as LIGHT which is a basic properity of these chemicals.
Old 08-10-2006, 09:32 AM   #22
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Re: Move by will alone...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbonatedgravy
Really? I see it more as the synonym for "innocent." Though "pure" is a much more fitting word since it also implies cleanliness and even ignorance. The only relevance I can see in interpreting the line as a look at literal human composition is that it's an easy way to compare us to our universal surroundings without making a distinction between what makes humans what we are and what makes a giraffe what it is. The expression that all living beings have the same basic drives.

So I think I can see your point, but in this case I get more out of the more emotionally driven use of the word "pure" as it relates to human development specifically.
I would agree seeing how chemicals are innocent, therefore, unconscious. The more humans become conscious the more they become corrupt (ex: Right in Two). The reason why I feel pure means the chemical molecules that created us is because of the end of the song.

"Leave as we come in
Pure as light, return to one

Move by will alone"

as you can see we came in and leave as LIGHT which is a basic properity of these chemicals.
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08-24-2006, 04:24 AM
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I've got it! A meaning for "move by will alone" that is entirely logical and fits perfectly with the thematic context of the song.

Till now I've been following Carbo.gravy's suggestion that equated "will" with "selfish desire", but the problem here is that actions flowing from unselfish desires are equally an expression of a person's will.
The terms "will" and "volition" have been more or less eliminated from modern philosophy and psychology, but the "will" was initially thought to be that part of the mind/brain that directed a persons actions, based on their desires and beliefs. So a person's will is whatever they want to do, selfish or not.

My problem with "move by will alone" was that I couldn't see what to contrast it with. Obviously we are moved by our "will" if our "will" is that part of us which drives our actions. What else could move us?
That's when it clicked for me. The "will" is what internally drives our actions, but our actions can also be directed by external factors - the nature of our external environment can limit the expression of our internal will.

So "move by will alone" is saying that we can't blame our poor moral choices on these external factors. They are irrelevant. The world presents us with infinite possibilities for moral progression and development so our pathetic failure reflects solely upon our own internal nature, and cannot be blamed on the hostile or impersonal nature of the universe in which we find ourselves.

"Move by will alone" - We can go wherever our will takes us, and yet this is what we choose...
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Old 08-24-2006, 04:24 AM   #23
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Re: Move by will alone...?

I've got it! A meaning for "move by will alone" that is entirely logical and fits perfectly with the thematic context of the song.

Till now I've been following Carbo.gravy's suggestion that equated "will" with "selfish desire", but the problem here is that actions flowing from unselfish desires are equally an expression of a person's will.
The terms "will" and "volition" have been more or less eliminated from modern philosophy and psychology, but the "will" was initially thought to be that part of the mind/brain that directed a persons actions, based on their desires and beliefs. So a person's will is whatever they want to do, selfish or not.

My problem with "move by will alone" was that I couldn't see what to contrast it with. Obviously we are moved by our "will" if our "will" is that part of us which drives our actions. What else could move us?
That's when it clicked for me. The "will" is what internally drives our actions, but our actions can also be directed by external factors - the nature of our external environment can limit the expression of our internal will.

So "move by will alone" is saying that we can't blame our poor moral choices on these external factors. They are irrelevant. The world presents us with infinite possibilities for moral progression and development so our pathetic failure reflects solely upon our own internal nature, and cannot be blamed on the hostile or impersonal nature of the universe in which we find ourselves.

"Move by will alone" - We can go wherever our will takes us, and yet this is what we choose...
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08-24-2006, 05:14 AM
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If you want to know what I think, take a look at this and find the Intension bit:

http://toolnavy.com/showthread.php?t=54918
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Old 08-24-2006, 05:14 AM   #24
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Re: Move by will alone...?

If you want to know what I think, take a look at this and find the Intension bit:

http://toolnavy.com/showthread.php?t=54918
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08-24-2006, 05:48 AM
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Good observations, seems logical and plausible. Your last line ties in with Right in Two very closely.
Thank you. The point of my last line was to show how this analysis fits in with the theme which I feel runs through both songs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by duncang View Post
If you want to know what I think, take a look at this and find the Intension bit:

http://toolnavy.com/showthread.php?t=54918
Thanks. Interesting read, but I would have to respectfully disagree with your interpretation of the song as autobiographical. Not that it doesn't make sense that way or anything, but I think that the thematic links between Intension and Right In Two (such as the way certain imagery is carried over) show that both songs are about humanity in general.
Do you still hold the same view about the title (Intension=intention+tension)? I think this is mistaken, as "intension" is a real word with a real meaning (in fact its meaning IS "meaning"). I think the song is a tale of humanity's moral development, and that the title refers to our search for meaning in the universe, or perhaps how we provide it with meaning ourselves through our actions.
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Old 08-24-2006, 05:48 AM   #25
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Re: Move by will alone...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by McRoggles View Post
Good observations, seems logical and plausible. Your last line ties in with Right in Two very closely.
Thank you. The point of my last line was to show how this analysis fits in with the theme which I feel runs through both songs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by duncang View Post
If you want to know what I think, take a look at this and find the Intension bit:

http://toolnavy.com/showthread.php?t=54918
Thanks. Interesting read, but I would have to respectfully disagree with your interpretation of the song as autobiographical. Not that it doesn't make sense that way or anything, but I think that the thematic links between Intension and Right In Two (such as the way certain imagery is carried over) show that both songs are about humanity in general.
Do you still hold the same view about the title (Intension=intention+tension)? I think this is mistaken, as "intension" is a real word with a real meaning (in fact its meaning IS "meaning"). I think the song is a tale of humanity's moral development, and that the title refers to our search for meaning in the universe, or perhaps how we provide it with meaning ourselves through our actions.
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I'm not adamant that any of the things I say in that whole thread are true, its just a theory I thought about for the album, which makes it all fit together (more so than any others I've thought about). I can't say I knew intension was a real word (probably should have looked it up), and that does fit, but this song and Right In Two are filled with intention ("move by will alone"), tension ("gather, place, erase") and meaning (Right In Two in general), it could be all three, in some word-play (wouldn't be unfamiliar territory), who knows?
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Old 08-24-2006, 07:13 AM   #26
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Re: Move by will alone...?

I'm not adamant that any of the things I say in that whole thread are true, its just a theory I thought about for the album, which makes it all fit together (more so than any others I've thought about). I can't say I knew intension was a real word (probably should have looked it up), and that does fit, but this song and Right In Two are filled with intention ("move by will alone"), tension ("gather, place, erase") and meaning (Right In Two in general), it could be all three, in some word-play (wouldn't be unfamiliar territory), who knows?
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08-24-2006, 11:49 AM
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I pretty much agree with spacemonkeyadb's last post. A few nights ago I was listening to the song and it sort of clicked for me. I find the song, at the beginning, closely relates to 2001: a space odyssey; how at first we, the monkeys, were pure. Using rocks as tools they conquered their environment (shelter) and their predators (throw to stay the stranger). Survival of the fittest.

Spark becomes a flame, flame becomes a fire is like evolution; with this new "free-will" we could either light the way or warm this home we occupy, or we could throw to stay the stranger and take whatever we desire -- the latter which corresponds with Right in Two; splitting things in two and and coveting it is pretty arrogant [plenty in this holy garden].
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Old 08-24-2006, 11:49 AM   #27
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Re: Move by will alone...?

I pretty much agree with spacemonkeyadb's last post. A few nights ago I was listening to the song and it sort of clicked for me. I find the song, at the beginning, closely relates to 2001: a space odyssey; how at first we, the monkeys, were pure. Using rocks as tools they conquered their environment (shelter) and their predators (throw to stay the stranger). Survival of the fittest.

Spark becomes a flame, flame becomes a fire is like evolution; with this new "free-will" we could either light the way or warm this home we occupy, or we could throw to stay the stranger and take whatever we desire -- the latter which corresponds with Right in Two; splitting things in two and and coveting it is pretty arrogant [plenty in this holy garden].
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I've got it! A meaning for "move by will alone" that is entirely logical and fits perfectly with the thematic context of the song.

Till now I've been following Carbo.gravy's suggestion that equated "will" with "selfish desire", but the problem here is that actions flowing from unselfish desires are equally an expression of a person's will.
The terms "will" and "volition" have been more or less eliminated from modern philosophy and psychology, but the "will" was initially thought to be that part of the mind/brain that directed a persons actions, based on their desires and beliefs. So a person's will is whatever they want to do, selfish or not.

My problem with "move by will alone" was that I couldn't see what to contrast it with. Obviously we are moved by our "will" if our "will" is that part of us which drives our actions. What else could move us?
That's when it clicked for me. The "will" is what internally drives our actions, but our actions can also be directed by external factors - the nature of our external environment can limit the expression of our internal will.

So "move by will alone" is saying that we can't blame our poor moral choices on these external factors. They are irrelevant. The world presents us with infinite possibilities for moral progression and development so our pathetic failure reflects solely upon our own internal nature, and cannot be blamed on the hostile or impersonal nature of the universe in which we find ourselves.

"Move by will alone" - We can go wherever our will takes us, and yet this is what we choose...

Maybe he's saying we need to shed the external factors and try to move by will alone ... we start life with good intentions but things tend to get out of control quickly ... spark becomes a flame ... flame becomes a fire... as we get sucked into all the bullshit that's been going on since before we got here. Do you heat your home with that flame or build a weapon to kill and plunder?

If we are pure as we begin why do some chose to raise a home with the stone while others swing it to crush a strangers bones? We're like sponges, what we learn in life, the external forces, has an affect on our will no?
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Old 08-24-2006, 12:22 PM   #28
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Re: Move by will alone...?

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Originally Posted by spacemonkeyadb View Post
I've got it! A meaning for "move by will alone" that is entirely logical and fits perfectly with the thematic context of the song.

Till now I've been following Carbo.gravy's suggestion that equated "will" with "selfish desire", but the problem here is that actions flowing from unselfish desires are equally an expression of a person's will.
The terms "will" and "volition" have been more or less eliminated from modern philosophy and psychology, but the "will" was initially thought to be that part of the mind/brain that directed a persons actions, based on their desires and beliefs. So a person's will is whatever they want to do, selfish or not.

My problem with "move by will alone" was that I couldn't see what to contrast it with. Obviously we are moved by our "will" if our "will" is that part of us which drives our actions. What else could move us?
That's when it clicked for me. The "will" is what internally drives our actions, but our actions can also be directed by external factors - the nature of our external environment can limit the expression of our internal will.

So "move by will alone" is saying that we can't blame our poor moral choices on these external factors. They are irrelevant. The world presents us with infinite possibilities for moral progression and development so our pathetic failure reflects solely upon our own internal nature, and cannot be blamed on the hostile or impersonal nature of the universe in which we find ourselves.

"Move by will alone" - We can go wherever our will takes us, and yet this is what we choose...

Maybe he's saying we need to shed the external factors and try to move by will alone ... we start life with good intentions but things tend to get out of control quickly ... spark becomes a flame ... flame becomes a fire... as we get sucked into all the bullshit that's been going on since before we got here. Do you heat your home with that flame or build a weapon to kill and plunder?

If we are pure as we begin why do some chose to raise a home with the stone while others swing it to crush a strangers bones? We're like sponges, what we learn in life, the external forces, has an affect on our will no?
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I think its self explainatory, humans as a species(the often point of view by manard in this record) think about it what moves you to do anything..will were theres a will theres a way etc, he is studying us from another point of view(I say that because in right in two he refers to us as them, "why did father give these humans free will?" etc Im not a typer and I dont intend to be.
Old 08-24-2006, 04:00 PM   #29
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Re: Move by will alone...?

I think its self explainatory, humans as a species(the often point of view by manard in this record) think about it what moves you to do anything..will were theres a will theres a way etc, he is studying us from another point of view(I say that because in right in two he refers to us as them, "why did father give these humans free will?" etc Im not a typer and I dont intend to be.
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Maybe he's saying we need to shed the external factors and try to move by will alone ... We're like sponges, what we learn in life, the external forces, has an affect on our will no?
Thanks, but the idea of this line as a recommendation doesn't work with the internal/external distinction I was trying to explain earlier, because the external factors are those that we don't have any control over.
The internal/external thing wasn't supposed to mean nature/nurture. As you noted, both nature and nurture would work as internal factors, determining our will by affecting our desires and beliefs.
Here's an example to show what I was going for: A man is moved by his will to go fishing in a river, but the river has dried up! Here his "will" has been thwarted by his external environment and he is no longer "moved by will alone". He is also limited by the nature of the world around him.
But when it comes to our moral choices and development these external factors are irrelevant, because regardless of our situation it is always possible to what is right in that situation.
So with respect to our moral progression we are "moved by will alone" - our lack of progress is our responsibility and we cannot shrug it off by blaming it on a hostile universe.

(Doesn't mean you're wrong, just that it doesn't fit with the distinction I was trying to explain)
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Old 08-24-2006, 05:50 PM   #30
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Re: Move by will alone...?

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Originally Posted by Rod View Post
Maybe he's saying we need to shed the external factors and try to move by will alone ... We're like sponges, what we learn in life, the external forces, has an affect on our will no?
Thanks, but the idea of this line as a recommendation doesn't work with the internal/external distinction I was trying to explain earlier, because the external factors are those that we don't have any control over.
The internal/external thing wasn't supposed to mean nature/nurture. As you noted, both nature and nurture would work as internal factors, determining our will by affecting our desires and beliefs.
Here's an example to show what I was going for: A man is moved by his will to go fishing in a river, but the river has dried up! Here his "will" has been thwarted by his external environment and he is no longer "moved by will alone". He is also limited by the nature of the world around him.
But when it comes to our moral choices and development these external factors are irrelevant, because regardless of our situation it is always possible to what is right in that situation.
So with respect to our moral progression we are "moved by will alone" - our lack of progress is our responsibility and we cannot shrug it off by blaming it on a hostile universe.

(Doesn't mean you're wrong, just that it doesn't fit with the distinction I was trying to explain)
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Thanks man, I'm not worried about being right or wrong, it is an interesting verse, one that made me take a closer look at this tune.

It may also be a question of are you born good or are you born bad? Morals seem kind of objective for the most part don't they? "Pure as we begin" to me suggests everyone is born good. If we were moved by will alone, how is it that there is evil in the world with everyone starting out pure? Where does the influence to be evil come from? How can it be innate if we all start out pure? The movie 'Trading Places' comes to mind. I understand it's not reality but the theory of environment impacting judgemnet is interesting. Does ego play a role in turning you bad? That is internal, but again I can't see it not being influenced by the external...
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Old 08-29-2006, 02:28 PM   #31
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Re: Move by will alone...?

Thanks man, I'm not worried about being right or wrong, it is an interesting verse, one that made me take a closer look at this tune.

It may also be a question of are you born good or are you born bad? Morals seem kind of objective for the most part don't they? "Pure as we begin" to me suggests everyone is born good. If we were moved by will alone, how is it that there is evil in the world with everyone starting out pure? Where does the influence to be evil come from? How can it be innate if we all start out pure? The movie 'Trading Places' comes to mind. I understand it's not reality but the theory of environment impacting judgemnet is interesting. Does ego play a role in turning you bad? That is internal, but again I can't see it not being influenced by the external...
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08-29-2006, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod View Post
Thanks man, I'm not worried about being right or wrong, it is an interesting verse, one that made me take a closer look at this tune.

It may also be a question of are you born good or are you born bad? Morals seem kind of objective for the most part don't they? "Pure as we begin" to me suggests everyone is born good. If we were moved by will alone, how is it that there is evil in the world with everyone starting out pure? Where does the influence to be evil come from? How can it be innate if we all start out pure? The movie 'Trading Places' comes to mind. I understand it's not reality but the theory of environment impacting judgemnet is interesting. Does ego play a role in turning you bad? That is internal, but again I can't see it not being influenced by the external...
"pure as we begin"
"pure by will alone"
"move by will alone"
"pure as light, return to one"

This says to me that we come into this life pure and leave it pure. But to remain pure during this life we must will it. We must move by will as to be pure. Will is what we choose to do - good or bad. We begin pure, but the nature of the physical life gives us the opportunity to squander that purity. Our brains are imperfect - such is the nature of biology - evolution is never ending and we are at a point where our intellect/ego/desire is too high for common sense. Yet we begin pure - we have the chance to turn this around, we just have to be WILLING.
Old 08-29-2006, 05:35 PM   #32
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Re: Move by will alone...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod View Post
Thanks man, I'm not worried about being right or wrong, it is an interesting verse, one that made me take a closer look at this tune.

It may also be a question of are you born good or are you born bad? Morals seem kind of objective for the most part don't they? "Pure as we begin" to me suggests everyone is born good. If we were moved by will alone, how is it that there is evil in the world with everyone starting out pure? Where does the influence to be evil come from? How can it be innate if we all start out pure? The movie 'Trading Places' comes to mind. I understand it's not reality but the theory of environment impacting judgemnet is interesting. Does ego play a role in turning you bad? That is internal, but again I can't see it not being influenced by the external...
"pure as we begin"
"pure by will alone"
"move by will alone"
"pure as light, return to one"

This says to me that we come into this life pure and leave it pure. But to remain pure during this life we must will it. We must move by will as to be pure. Will is what we choose to do - good or bad. We begin pure, but the nature of the physical life gives us the opportunity to squander that purity. Our brains are imperfect - such is the nature of biology - evolution is never ending and we are at a point where our intellect/ego/desire is too high for common sense. Yet we begin pure - we have the chance to turn this around, we just have to be WILLING.
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09-05-2006, 06:08 AM
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That's kind of what I thought but then I started thinking.

What if you begin as pure evil?
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Old 09-05-2006, 06:08 AM   #33
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Re: Move by will alone...?

That's kind of what I thought but then I started thinking.

What if you begin as pure evil?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod View Post
That's kind of what I thought but then I started thinking.

What if you begin as pure evil?
ramalamadingdong! thats a great thought. How optimistic we are to automatically think otherwise. I didn't think of that, I like it.
Old 09-05-2006, 07:35 PM   #34
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Re: Move by will alone...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod View Post
That's kind of what I thought but then I started thinking.

What if you begin as pure evil?
ramalamadingdong! thats a great thought. How optimistic we are to automatically think otherwise. I didn't think of that, I like it.
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01-28-2007, 03:15 AM
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My interpretation of "Move by will alone" is an act on instinct, without reason. Something that animals do. You can think like a human but still in narrow-minded contexts.
We've inherited instinct to defend our territory, so it's natural to throw to a stone to stay the stranger but it's silly as well. But animals don't ask an intruder what he wants and our instincts are inherited from animals. That's why people are called silly or talking monkeys in the Right In Two.
Old 01-28-2007, 03:15 AM   #35
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Re: Move by will alone...?

My interpretation of "Move by will alone" is an act on instinct, without reason. Something that animals do. You can think like a human but still in narrow-minded contexts.
We've inherited instinct to defend our territory, so it's natural to throw to a stone to stay the stranger but it's silly as well. But animals don't ask an intruder what he wants and our instincts are inherited from animals. That's why people are called silly or talking monkeys in the Right In Two.
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lessthanmurf
02-08-2007, 06:49 PM
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this thread and others ive read about this song made me think of something....

the album as a whole is constantly stepping back in time.

vicarious - present day

wings/10k days - around and after the time of her passing

the pot - bush & the war

keys/rosetta - 50/60s tripping/UFO

intension/right - looks back to when humans/civilisation began

perhaps then viginti tres represents the begining of the universe.
Old 02-08-2007, 06:49 PM   #36
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Re: Move by will alone...?

this thread and others ive read about this song made me think of something....

the album as a whole is constantly stepping back in time.

vicarious - present day

wings/10k days - around and after the time of her passing

the pot - bush & the war

keys/rosetta - 50/60s tripping/UFO

intension/right - looks back to when humans/civilisation began

perhaps then viginti tres represents the begining of the universe.
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02-11-2007, 09:51 PM
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Always saw this as a somwhat depressing but objective take on the course of human history, from a vantage point far enough away to see beginning and end. Given the musical continuity it should be read in context of the next song.

The basic idea is that we started, not good nor evil, since those concepts hadnt yet been created, that we could have gone either way, but ended up being endlessly driven towards destruction.

"Light" - The lyrics recognize a sort of clean slate beginning (pure as we begin)
light is the catch-all metaphor for the beginning, be it Big Bang or God, the method is beside the point. By the end of the song, and thus by the end of humanity, light is less ambiguous, leaning more towards the light of war, nuclear explosion (though call it apocalypse if you must).

"Will" - Whenever I see this word I think of Nietzsche, where the will was a will to power, a will to take control, a will to dominate, and the idea that this simple concept could explain the entire course of human history and the driving force behind every achievement. You might view it in a more objective manner, simply describing a collective pushing through history, but this pushing itself recognizes an inherent agression through time.

The words then move rather simply through two achievements - tools/technology and fire - that have pulled us through time, their potential utility, and their ultimate use for destruction.
- Here we have a stone
1) Gather to build a home (or)
2) Throw to kill the stranger
- Here we have a fire
1) Warm our homes (or)
2) Forge a blade to destroy those of others

so you could read it simply as "yep, this stuff could be used either way". But in the context of Right in Two i think the better reading is "we keep favoring (2)".

Left only with this will to dominate, the introduction of stone and fire culminates in an angry mob tearing apart bigger and bigger castles until "light" (whether you chose God before, in which case, salvation, or Big Bang, in which case, nuclear war) removes the "will".

In a nutshell, cause that was way too long, a bleak, pointless, but honest look at human history from beginning to end. The next song zooms in somewhat arbitrarily to one point in that timeline (now) on an atomic/angelic level for more pointed commentary/lamentation on the "will" of humans.

for reflective reference:

in·ten·sion /ɪnˈtɛnʃən/
–noun
1. intensification; increase in degree.
2. intensity; high degree.
3. relative intensity; degree.
4. exertion of the mind; determination.
5. Logic. (of a term) the set of attributes belonging to all and only those things to which the given term is correctly applied; connotation; comprehension. Compare extension (def. 12)

side note... because i suddenly ifeel im in an anonymous support group, and also i owe an explanation for the length of the post - its 1am, i have 20 pages of a brief to draft by morning for law school and I just spent 45 minutes (over)dissecting a rather simple set of lyrics... mirror show me what's the difference.
Old 02-11-2007, 09:51 PM   #37
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Re: Move by will alone...?

Always saw this as a somwhat depressing but objective take on the course of human history, from a vantage point far enough away to see beginning and end. Given the musical continuity it should be read in context of the next song.

The basic idea is that we started, not good nor evil, since those concepts hadnt yet been created, that we could have gone either way, but ended up being endlessly driven towards destruction.

"Light" - The lyrics recognize a sort of clean slate beginning (pure as we begin)
light is the catch-all metaphor for the beginning, be it Big Bang or God, the method is beside the point. By the end of the song, and thus by the end of humanity, light is less ambiguous, leaning more towards the light of war, nuclear explosion (though call it apocalypse if you must).

"Will" - Whenever I see this word I think of Nietzsche, where the will was a will to power, a will to take control, a will to dominate, and the idea that this simple concept could explain the entire course of human history and the driving force behind every achievement. You might view it in a more objective manner, simply describing a collective pushing through history, but this pushing itself recognizes an inherent agression through time.

The words then move rather simply through two achievements - tools/technology and fire - that have pulled us through time, their potential utility, and their ultimate use for destruction.
- Here we have a stone
1) Gather to build a home (or)
2) Throw to kill the stranger
- Here we have a fire
1) Warm our homes (or)
2) Forge a blade to destroy those of others

so you could read it simply as "yep, this stuff could be used either way". But in the context of Right in Two i think the better reading is "we keep favoring (2)".

Left only with this will to dominate, the introduction of stone and fire culminates in an angry mob tearing apart bigger and bigger castles until "light" (whether you chose God before, in which case, salvation, or Big Bang, in which case, nuclear war) removes the "will".

In a nutshell, cause that was way too long, a bleak, pointless, but honest look at human history from beginning to end. The next song zooms in somewhat arbitrarily to one point in that timeline (now) on an atomic/angelic level for more pointed commentary/lamentation on the "will" of humans.

for reflective reference:

in·ten·sion /ɪnˈtɛnʃən/
–noun
1. intensification; increase in degree.
2. intensity; high degree.
3. relative intensity; degree.
4. exertion of the mind; determination.
5. Logic. (of a term) the set of attributes belonging to all and only those things to which the given term is correctly applied; connotation; comprehension. Compare extension (def. 12)

side note... because i suddenly ifeel im in an anonymous support group, and also i owe an explanation for the length of the post - its 1am, i have 20 pages of a brief to draft by morning for law school and I just spent 45 minutes (over)dissecting a rather simple set of lyrics... mirror show me what's the difference.
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02-17-2007, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spacemonkeyadb View Post
I'd like to know what people think this line is intended to mean within the context of the song:

"Move by will alone"
I actually just recently posted something about this and I'd repost it here, but I think it might be too confusing to take it out of context with the rest of the thread.

http://toolnavy.com/showthread.php?t=76162
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Away with our explosives then! Away with our destroyers! They have no place within our better world... But let us raise a toast to all our bombers, all our bastards, most unlovely and most unforgivable.
Let's drink to their health, then meet with them no more.

9.30.2006 - Washington, D.C.
6.07.2007 - Richmond, VA
Old 02-17-2007, 08:35 PM   #38
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Re: Move by will alone...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by spacemonkeyadb View Post
I'd like to know what people think this line is intended to mean within the context of the song:

"Move by will alone"
I actually just recently posted something about this and I'd repost it here, but I think it might be too confusing to take it out of context with the rest of the thread.

http://toolnavy.com/showthread.php?t=76162
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Away with our explosives then! Away with our destroyers! They have no place within our better world... But let us raise a toast to all our bombers, all our bastards, most unlovely and most unforgivable.
Let's drink to their health, then meet with them no more.

9.30.2006 - Washington, D.C.
6.07.2007 - Richmond, VA
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03-21-2007, 06:19 PM
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This song just kinda hit me like:

Whoa.. I can actually move my hand, just by willing it.
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Old 03-21-2007, 06:19 PM   #39
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Re: Move by will alone...?

This song just kinda hit me like:

Whoa.. I can actually move my hand, just by willing it.
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04-11-2007, 01:56 PM
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Has anyone read any Aleister Crowley?
His Thoth Tarot appears in the album not just coincidently.
I think anyway.
Crowley's motto was "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. Love is the law. Love under will."
On another thread I pointed this out (forgive me). Qabalistically, will corresponds to the element fire. Emotions, water, and so on.
Crowley wrote much about "true will". We all have a purpose and we can trace it all the way back to the beginning through our intent.
"Love under will" makes sense since our hearts can and often do get us into trouble, when divorced from our true intent. To say "I had good intentions" when something goes wrong is to try to blame the mistake on our will, which is to make another mistake.
Love can be felt without doing anything at all. Will on the other hand is where the intent is and if traced back can be seen as pure as for instance a plant's "will" to do exactly what it was intended to do. To survive and multiply.
We on the other other hand are a little more complex.
Old 04-11-2007, 01:56 PM   #40
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Re: Move by will alone...?

Has anyone read any Aleister Crowley?
His Thoth Tarot appears in the album not just coincidently.
I think anyway.
Crowley's motto was "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. Love is the law. Love under will."
On another thread I pointed this out (forgive me). Qabalistically, will corresponds to the element fire. Emotions, water, and so on.
Crowley wrote much about "true will". We all have a purpose and we can trace it all the way back to the beginning through our intent.
"Love under will" makes sense since our hearts can and often do get us into trouble, when divorced from our true intent. To say "I had good intentions" when something goes wrong is to try to blame the mistake on our will, which is to make another mistake.
Love can be felt without doing anything at all. Will on the other hand is where the intent is and if traced back can be seen as pure as for instance a plant's "will" to do exactly what it was intended to do. To survive and multiply.
We on the other other hand are a little more complex.
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