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Old 05-03-2006, 12:28 PM   #1
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Schizophrenia?

Anybody think the guy in this song may have some form of schizophrenia, drug indused or otherwise? TO me some of the things he does/says relate to various aspects of a person with schizophrenia, and also panic attacks.

For instance, nobody will contest with me that the guy(I don't know if its supposed to be maynard singing about himself or not so i'll call him the guy) is rambling incoherently. That is one of hte tell tale signs of schizophrenia, random thoughts that make no sense. I can't make out a lot of the lyrics, but there is somehting to the tea of "ET told me that I am the one, and i didn't finish fucking high school." This could be a delusion of granduer, a sympton seen in people with paranoid schizophrenia. I would like to see the actual lyrics to persue this furhter, but tha's all i can think of for now.

Then the panic attack comes to mind when maynard talks about being strapped to the bed, feet cold, shitting the bed. A person in a panic attack would probably need to be restrained, and the central nervous system starts "shut off" making the person lose bowel control.

Just a thought, if there is anybody who is a psych major or something or knows more about this than me go ahead and add. Think I'm full of shit? Flame away, I welcome your onslaught and look forward to defending myself.

sorry it is so long
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Old 05-03-2006, 01:04 PM   #2
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Re: Schizophrenia?

If the condition the guy in this song has is induced by drugs (and that is very likely the case) than it probably wouldn't be readily diagnosed as schizophrenia. DSM-IV (current psychiatric manual) has several symptoms that should be taken into account when diagnosing schizophrenia. Lack of thinking coherence is just one of them, and not enough to make schizophrenia diagnosed. The symptoms must persist for a longer time to (several months), and have to include several aspects of psychosocial functioning to be considered. If drugs are the reason for this guy to behave like this, the specialist will obviously wait for the drug effect to pass before making any serious judgment about the condition. Also, today mainstream psychiatry categorizes several types of schizophrenia. If person is diagnosed with paranoid type he will not suffer from illussions of grandeur or vice versa (it may be theoretical possible to suffer from both, but that would be statistical rarity par exellance). Panic attacks are another class of psychological disturbances and are not heavily connected to schizophrenia, but go hand in hand with anxiety problems. Just on glance I don't think this guy has a schizophrenia, although behavior and thinking from people on psychedelics resembles in some aspect the thinking and behavior seen in schizophrenic patients. When LSD was still legal and used somewhat in medicine (contoversial!) it was famous among psychiatrists for its abilities to 'mimic' some forms of psychosis, and was used in research projects dealing with better understanding of schizophrenia too.
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Old 05-03-2006, 01:12 PM   #3
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Re: Schizophrenia?

it scares me how much i understood in that. I know the whole different types of schizophrenia, paranoid, disorganized, catatonic, and undifferentiated. I also know that panic disorders don't pertain to schizophrenia. It was just a thought that poped into my head 'cause psychology is something i'm considering as a major, so i just thought i would try to tie it in to the song some how. I also didn't want to go through my psych book looking for concrete evidence, but you sumed it up nicely.

My main reason for saying what i said was to get a different perspective on the song, other than the LSD thing, and since i have no knowledge of LSD and it's effects i went with this.
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Old 05-03-2006, 02:33 PM   #4
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Re: Schizophrenia?

Just a thought, but the first idea I had was maybe a schizophrenic-type condition of a returning soldier from war.
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Old 05-03-2006, 07:53 PM   #5
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Re: Schizophrenia?

Quote:
Originally Posted by martyr_02
Anybody think the guy in this song may have some form of schizophrenia, drug indused or otherwise? TO me some of the things he does/says relate to various aspects of a person with schizophrenia, and also panic attacks.

For instance, nobody will contest with me that the guy(I don't know if its supposed to be maynard singing about himself or not so i'll call him the guy) is rambling incoherently. That is one of hte tell tale signs of schizophrenia, random thoughts that make no sense. I can't make out a lot of the lyrics, but there is somehting to the tea of "ET told me that I am the one, and i didn't finish fucking high school." This could be a delusion of granduer, a sympton seen in people with paranoid schizophrenia. I would like to see the actual lyrics to persue this furhter, but tha's all i can think of for now.

Then the panic attack comes to mind when maynard talks about being strapped to the bed, feet cold, shitting the bed. A person in a panic attack would probably need to be restrained, and the central nervous system starts "shut off" making the person lose bowel control.

Just a thought, if there is anybody who is a psych major or something or knows more about this than me go ahead and add. Think I'm full of shit? Flame away, I welcome your onslaught and look forward to defending myself.

sorry it is so long
I like!
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Old 05-03-2006, 10:01 PM   #6
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Re: Schizophrenia?

read Boom Boom's post then. He explains it a little better than me. along with some other stuff, such as the use of LSD to engage patients into states of psychosis.
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Old 05-03-2006, 10:18 PM   #7
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Re: Schizophrenia?

I'm a Psychology major with a particular interest in clinical psychology and schizophrenia.

I can see some of the parallels between the lyrics and the DSM-IV's description of schizophrenia, but I really do not believe that was what Maynard is talking about. It is true that some schizophrenics have delusions of grandeur such as the FBI is after them, they are some important political figure ect, but what he is describing fits more of a psychedelic experience than literature describing schizophrenia. A schizophrenic will be able to respond to medical physicians, albeit disorganized in some cases unless the person is catatonic in which case communication would be basically impossible.

Nor is it panic disorder in as the DSM-IV describes it. A person's vitals would not be "normal." Rapid heard rate, sweat, and rapid breathing would occur.

This song could be about a few things. A psychedelic experience involving imagined ETs and philosophical understandings derived from the trip. Perhaps it could be about a psychedelic experience coupled with a REAL encounter with ET about the ending of the world,. Finally it could be about a psychedelic experience which opens up an expansive understanding about the nature of the universe but psychedelic experiences are flawed in that one has difficulty maintaining those psychedelic epiphanies, hence "god damn shit the bed."
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Old 06-02-2006, 08:46 PM   #8
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Re: Schizophrenia?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Boom
If the condition the guy in this song has is induced by drugs (and that is very likely the case) than it probably wouldn't be readily diagnosed as schizophrenia. DSM-IV (current psychiatric manual)
Drugs - HOw - Justify if you a thrtowing your knowladge around.

Just cause you can read this in a book doesn't make it so - if Manard has personal experiance with psychosis then he will inherenently know more then someone who has just read a book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Boom
When LSD was still legal and used somewhat in medicine (contoversial!) it was famous among psychiatrists for its abilities to 'mimic' some forms of psychosis, and was used in research projects dealing with better understanding of schizophrenia too.
Another sign you read a book. LSD only resemembles Psychosis is you know little about either and nothing about both
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Old 06-02-2006, 08:48 PM   #9
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Re: Schizophrenia?

...no...you're being too logical...
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Old 06-02-2006, 08:51 PM   #10
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Re: Schizophrenia?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILQUA RUXA
I'm a Psychology major with a particular interest in clinical psychology and schizophrenia.

I can see some of the parallels between the lyrics and the DSM-IV's description of schizophrenia, but I really do not believe that was what Maynard is talking about. It is true that some schizophrenics have delusions of grandeur such as the FBI is after them, they are some important political figure ect, but what he is describing fits more of a psychedelic experience than literature describing schizophrenia. A schizophrenic will be able to respond to medical physicians, albeit disorganized in some cases unless the person is catatonic in which case communication would be basically impossible.

Nor is it panic disorder in as the DSM-IV describes it. A person's vitals would not be "normal." Rapid heard rate, sweat, and rapid breathing would occur.

This song could be about a few things. A psychedelic experience involving imagined ETs and philosophical understandings derived from the trip. Perhaps it could be about a psychedelic experience coupled with a REAL encounter with ET about the ending of the world,. Finally it could be about a psychedelic experience which opens up an expansive understanding about the nature of the universe but psychedelic experiences are flawed in that one has difficulty maintaining those psychedelic epiphanies, hence "god damn shit the bed."
Another person who would read a book on France then, thinking they know everything about France; argue with a native french person about the intricacies of France and the french language and not believe what the french person told them about France

Get some experience behind you then you may understand this criticism
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Old 06-02-2006, 08:54 PM   #11
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Re: Schizophrenia?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJunkhead
Another person who would read a book on France then, thinking they know everything about France; argue with a native french person about the intricacies of France and the french language and not believe what the french person told them about France

Get some experience behind you then you may understand this criticism



haha!....thank you
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Old 06-03-2006, 05:38 AM   #12
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Re: Schizophrenia?

hey, if you like psychiatry, read the book by john e. mack (hence my screen name). he was a psychiatrist with faculty position at harvard who studied alien abduction.

he writes he saw patients that reported abduction and didn't meet DSM-IV criteria for any schizophrenia spectrum disorder or bipolar with psychosis. however, a lot of the "abductees"/patients did have post-traumatic stress disorder, and he discussed the obvious possibility that the PTSD came first and the abduction came second, but for a number of reasons he came to the conclusion that people had PTSD "because" they were actually abducted. i think the guy in RS could have PTSD. everytime the narrator thinks about the experience in the song, when he's re-telling it, he has a panic attack (can't breath, right now...see my heart is pounding/racing).

another part of John E. Mack's book abduction relates to RS. there's actually a chapter (that I thought was ridiculous at first), where a guy takes some acid and sees an alien -- very similar to RS-. i thought it was stupid, but by the time i finished the book i realized why that chapter was there -- basically, when you hear about something you've already decided isnt' real, you feel like you can just dismiss it as a hallucination, whether drug-induced or related to psychosis. somehow, saying he's crazy feels like a scientific explanation. however, it's not enough to just say "you're crazy" and that's "why" you think you were adbucted by aliens, because it doesn't explain "why" so many people who don't know each other report EXACTLY the same details. there were even children, one as young as 2 years old, that reported the SAME abduction experience. basically, as a psychiatrist, i think he was trying to say, it's not enough to just label someone as crazy and then say that means science explains it.

a little off topic, i read his books "Abduction" and "Passport to the Cosmos" in 2001, and then listened to Third Eye and could have sworn the song was intentionally making reference to abduction. Then after hearing the overall message of lateralus the same year, followed by the last track, the album lateralus made me think of the message the abductees are given in John E. Mack's book. so hearing RS gave me goosebumps for about the first 50 listens. the band definitely has a thing for aliens.

oh, sorry this is so long, but someone is bound to say "a scientist said abductions are just sleep paralysis". plenty of abductees are awake (driving n whatnot) when they are abducted.

oh, and one more thing. i think i completely missed your point Jjunkhead, but ilqua ruxa was right that according to the DSM-IV exclusion criteria, you aren't schizophrenic if your hallucination(s) was drug-induced.

sorry this is sooo long.
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Old 06-03-2006, 05:40 AM   #13
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Re: Schizophrenia?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Boom
If the condition the guy in this song has is induced by drugs (and that is very likely the case) than it probably wouldn't be readily diagnosed as schizophrenia. DSM-IV (current psychiatric manual) has several symptoms that should be taken into account when diagnosing schizophrenia. Lack of thinking coherence is just one of them, and not enough to make schizophrenia diagnosed. The symptoms must persist for a longer time to (several months), and have to include several aspects of psychosocial functioning to be considered. If drugs are the reason for this guy to behave like this, the specialist will obviously wait for the drug effect to pass before making any serious judgment about the condition. Also, today mainstream psychiatry categorizes several types of schizophrenia. If person is diagnosed with paranoid type he will not suffer from illussions of grandeur or vice versa (it may be theoretical possible to suffer from both, but that would be statistical rarity par exellance). Panic attacks are another class of psychological disturbances and are not heavily connected to schizophrenia, but go hand in hand with anxiety problems. Just on glance I don't think this guy has a schizophrenia, although behavior and thinking from people on psychedelics resembles in some aspect the thinking and behavior seen in schizophrenic patients. When LSD was still legal and used somewhat in medicine (contoversial!) it was famous among psychiatrists for its abilities to 'mimic' some forms of psychosis, and was used in research projects dealing with better understanding of schizophrenia too.
Exactly correct. The only way to measure this would be to wait till he comes off the possible drug-induced psychosis. Then, and you would have to monitor for quite a while, you might be able to diagnose schizophrenia. No doctor is going to monitor anyone for that amount of time...so we'll never know. Good theory though, I kind of wondered the same thing.
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Old 06-03-2006, 06:41 AM   #14
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Re: Schizophrenia?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JE Mack
hey, if you like psychiatry, read the book by john e. mack (hence my screen name). he was a psychiatrist with faculty position at harvard who studied alien abduction.
........
oh, and one more thing. i think i completely missed your point Jjunkhead, but ilqua ruxa was right that according to the DSM-IV exclusion criteria, you aren't schizophrenic if your hallucination(s) was drug-induced.

sorry this is sooo long.
I enjoyed reading your post, thank you. It wasn't long.

My point....Firstly my post(s) on this thread shed some light on my view http://toolnavy.com/showthread.php?t=48247
I guess I had 2 points The first was a criticism on the post by ilqua ruxa - "I'm a Psychology major with a particular interest in clinical psychology and schizophrenia. " - this does not make his/her opinion any more valid then the next person., it only shows an inflated ego and a certain arrogance.

The second point... Once science told us the world was flat. Science has educated ILQUA RUXA. The DSM-IV tells us one thing, but we are guaranteed that the DSM-V will tell us something different. In 1000 years, 10,000 years people will look back on today's science and laugh at how wrong it is/was. "Truth" in science has a very short life.

The current scientific view of Schizophrenia and psychosis is similar to the "flat earth" notion. Reading research papers on the subject and talking to professionals in the field, then talking to people who have actually experienced and recovered from it - they have two completely different views on the experience. Who is correct - the person who experienced psychosis or the professional who read about it in a book. Sadly many professional will argue they know better then someone who has been there - hence my post and the analogy of France. I expect ILQUA RUXA will turn out to be very good in his/her field, given the experience of time - after all he/she is a TOOL fan

I would like to distance myself from the anti-psychiatry groups, I share little of their views. It must be said that most people in psychiatry/psychology are trying to do good and on the whole the world is better for them, Yet unless you free yourself from yourself you will not be able to see a more accurate version of the truth.

If my post was longer then yours JE Mack I do not apologise :)

Last edited by JJunkhead; 06-03-2006 at 06:44 AM..
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Old 06-05-2006, 11:44 AM   #15
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Re: Schizophrenia?

Being on LSD and experiancing Schizophrenia are kinda similar.
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Old 06-17-2006, 08:27 AM   #16
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Re: Schizophrenia?

Quote:
Then the panic attack comes to mind when maynard talks about being strapped to the bed, feet cold, shitting the bed. A person in a panic attack would probably need to be restrained, and the central nervous system starts "shut off" making the person lose bowel control.
I don't think so - people who experience panic attacks and anxiety are neurotic, not psychotic; their perception is not affected so they don't have to be restrained. They are also quite capable of controlling their bowel movements (at least, I've certainly never shat myself while having a panic attack).
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Old 06-17-2006, 08:47 AM   #17
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Re: Schizophrenia?

Ive come to terms with this song, that the reason for the experience is kind of irrelevent to me.

Although... i think hes saying at 1:30 in the song

"Fuck me, Its gotta be,
Dead Head, Chemistry,
This blotters gotten on top of me,
Its got me seein, E mother Fuckin T."

Blotter is LSD terminology....
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