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Old 12-04-2013, 12:36 PM   #1
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Danny Carey/Aleister Crowley Relation

First off, honesty is everything. I am a Christian, and also a long time Tool fan. I've seen them close to ten times. How is that possible? Well, all of us Christians aren't as closed minded as you might suspect. I do believe in freedom of religion and freedom of choice. It just so happens, I believe Jesus Christ is our lord and savior and I shouldn't be attacked for that. If you do attack Christians for what they believe, then you are the epitome of being hypocritical. So, for the sake of this intellectual and honest discussion; anybody who replies just to bash me for my beliefs will be ignored.

I check the Tool website just as many of you all do to check on the latest album progress. But, when I checked it last night, I noticed that there was an advertisement for Aleister Crowley products, a clear endorsement. After doing a little more research, I found that Danny Carey seems to be fascinated by this demonic character and his father was actually a freemason. Obviously, the band has no problem with this and also embraces his teachings because if they didn't then they would certainly have nothing to do with it and wouldn't agree to promote Crowley on their site. How deeply they are into the Occult teachings of Aleister Crowley is debatable.

Lets go over some of the things that Alesiter Crowley preached.

"Compassion is the vice of kings" So compassion is a bad thing? Quite strange. I thought compassion is really what holds us all together. Even Maynard sang, "Cold silence has a tendency to atrophy any sense of compassion." I also remember Maynard mentioning the importance of compassion during one of the live shows in the Lateralus era. So, why would he support Crowley? His teachings seem to directly contradict his own beliefs. Unless of course, there is a reverse meaning to his lyrics.

Moving on....The following quotes are from Crowley's Magik: in theory and practice (1929)

"Those magicians who object to the use of blood, have endeavored to replace it with incense. But, the bloody sacrifice, though more dangerous, is more efficacious. And for nearly all purposes, human sacrifice is the best." OK, so the band Tool is OK with promoting someone who is all for human sacrifice. Interesting. But, it gets more disturbing.

"The animal should therefore be killed within the circle, or triangle, so that its energy cannot escape. for the highest spiritual working, one must accordingly choose that victim which contains the greatest and purest force, a child of male perfect innocence and high intelligence is the most satisfactory and suitable victim." (page 95)

Now, whether you're a Christian or not. If you're a good person with truly positive intentions, you would never want your little brother or sister, son or daughter....to be sacrificed. This is truly evil. And if you actually believe in Crowley's teachings, you're very sick and need help.

What this is all culminating to is....Like I said, I've been a long time fan and I'm a musician myself. I've seen countless interviews with Danny Carey and he seems to be really cool and a good person. So, why does he support this? Is it an act designed to cover up his true beliefs?
Why does the band seem to support Crowley?

I don't understand. I'm going to find it hard to listen to them now because they support such filth. Maybe I'm ignorant, maybe I'm missing a piece of this puzzle. I'm just going by Crowley's own words and the fact that Tool supports Crowley.

So, where am I wrong here? Or, maybe someone can confirm that I am right.

Last edited by twinheads; 12-04-2013 at 12:38 PM..
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Old 12-04-2013, 01:35 PM   #2
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Re: Danny Carey/Aleister Crowley Relation

I liked that.

Like Jesus reading a black bible.
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Old 12-04-2013, 03:14 PM   #3
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Re: Danny Carey/Aleister Crowley Relation

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I liked that.

Like Jesus reading a black bible.
Also, no brain dead responses please.
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Old 12-04-2013, 03:28 PM   #4
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Re: Danny Carey/Aleister Crowley Relation

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Old 12-05-2013, 11:43 PM   #5
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Re: Danny Carey/Aleister Crowley Relation

Quote:
Originally Posted by twinheads View Post
Also, no brain dead responses please.
Sorry but that's what you did.

I don't claim to be any kind of Crowley/Thelema expert. Yet I do know that Crowley hides a lot of meanings behind play on words. So sometimes phrases have double, even triple meanings. When Crowley advices you keep an eye on the most gifted child on your family for a later sacrifice, well, just take it with a grain of salt.

I don't think you as christian would put a sword through my lung when I tell you about my disbeliefs, or that you drink blood and eat human flesh every sunday at church. Maybe you should give Danny the same benefit of doubt. You should know this since bible has been a target of these kind of accusations for ages.

Hence my first post.

Also, De eier von Satan is not a pro-Nazi song.
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Old 12-06-2013, 06:24 AM   #6
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Re: Danny Carey/Aleister Crowley Relation

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Originally Posted by twinheads View Post
Maybe I'm ignorant, maybe I'm missing a piece of this puzzle.
you could also quote parts of the bible without any context that superfically sound "evil" as well...i am by far no expert! but crowley also said "love is the law" and stuff like that...i GUESS that child-sacrifices and stuff like that are not to be taken literally and i also don`t think that two quotes will deal as a adequate ground for discussion about that matter...
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Old 12-06-2013, 06:26 AM   #7
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Re: Danny Carey/Aleister Crowley Relation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Puzzle View Post
Sorry but that's what you did.

I don't claim to be any kind of Crowley/Thelema expert. Yet I do know that Crowley hides a lot of meanings behind play on words. So sometimes phrases have double, even triple meanings. When Crowley advices you keep an eye on the most gifted child on your family for a later sacrifice, well, just take it with a grain of salt.

I don't think you as christian would put a sword through my lung when I tell you about my disbeliefs, or that you drink blood and eat human flesh every sunday at church. Maybe you should give Danny the same benefit of doubt. You should know this since bible has been a target of these kind of accusations for ages.

Hence my first post.

Also, De eier von Satan is not a pro-Nazi song.
right. catholic christians REALLY believe that they are drinking jesus` blood and eat his body...its called "transsubstantiation"...now- where`s the big difference?
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Old 12-06-2013, 06:30 AM   #8
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Re: Danny Carey/Aleister Crowley Relation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Puzzle View Post
Like Jesus reading a black bible.
I liked that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by twinheads View Post
maybe I'm missing a piece of this puzzle.
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Old 02-18-2014, 09:26 PM   #9
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Re: Danny Carey/Aleister Crowley Relation

All of the comments made here about Christianity are so off base it's unreal. Perhaps you should actually pick up the Bible and read it.

It is you all who are ignorant, not I. I know everything I need to know about that freak.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXhmly9CXLs

Uhh.....Yeah. Seems like a really swell guy.

I'm through here. You guys can BS amongst yourselves and share more lies with each other so that you can justify listening to a band who supports that filth. You guys obviously idolize Tool and think they can do no bad and I know from years of experience being a musician that arguing with hardcore fan boys is a rather pointless routine.
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Old 02-18-2014, 09:50 PM   #10
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Re: Danny Carey/Aleister Crowley Relation

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the Bible

share more lies
let it out
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Old 02-19-2014, 03:19 PM   #11
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Re: Danny Carey/Aleister Crowley Relation

I won't argue that Danny Carey isn't an ardent student of the Occult, or deny his deep interest in Crowley's work. I can't imagine the cost of his collection of the man's literature, and it shows he is/was deeply interested in that particular teaching. I highly doubt Danny supports ideas such as this, but considering the fact that you've only included these highly concerning pieces of his writings, there is little for us to say, "Ah, this is an understandable point for Danny to be interested in and practice." You can't judge the entirety of someone's morality based on two things that they said, and people are not one-sided. If you want a personal example of this, if I had only read the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in the Old Testament, I would've viewed the Christian God as unforgiving, brutal, and arguably cruel. If I had taken something from the New Testament, I probably would be far more forgiving of the actions of that same God. It is unfair to judge the entirety of the work from singular incidents, and considering few of us have read the writings of Crowley (and I imagine those who have don't particularly care to argue these points) we aren't seeing all sides of the issue.

But as to the rest of Tool:

It would be unfair to presume that all of them support ideas such as this. It would be unfair to assume that all of them were interested in making wine, or going to WWE games, or reading the literature of famous Occultists. They are individuals and one message from the writings of an author one of them admires does not mean that that message is being conveyed in their music, supported by them as a whole, etc. The men contradict one another talking to reporters when they say albums will be out--you can't expect them to all have the same views on an author, or support his ideas unanimously. While there have been several instances of the band doing things in pictures or videos that suggest their interest in Occultism early on (particularly during the Lateralus era) they have also grown as people and people's interests change.

Finally, they aren't telling anyone to go out and practice Magik. They aren't encouraging sacrifices, burning incense at concerts (that's not what the crowd's smoking, either!) to represent blood, and they certainly aren't encouraging their audience to go out and pick up the literature of Occultists. From the basic amount I've read about Occultism, it is a particular interest that encourages the individual to learn and make decisions about what they wish to adapt. It has a lot to do with the will of the student and their sincerity, and I imagine rationally speaking, people would also include their moral standpoint when considering things like this and make a decision on that as well.

TL;DR: Not enough information here to make judgments on Crowley, the views of Danny Carey, and certainly not the views of the band as a whole. They're not encouraging anyone to go out and sacrifice their children. If you want to study Occultism, you better be ready to read a LOT of material and parse through that.
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Old 02-19-2014, 10:28 PM   #12
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Re: Danny Carey/Aleister Crowley Relation

Quote:
Originally Posted by twinheads View Post
All of the comments made here about Christianity are so off base it's unreal. Perhaps you should actually pick up the Bible and read it.

It is you all who are ignorant, not I. I know everything I need to know about that freak.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXhmly9CXLs

Uhh.....Yeah. Seems like a really swell guy.

I'm through here. You guys can BS amongst yourselves and share more lies with each other so that you can justify listening to a band who supports that filth. You guys obviously idolize Tool and think they can do no bad and I know from years of experience being a musician that arguing with hardcore fan boys is a rather pointless routine.
So that book I read, the one that starts off with a lot of stuff about living sacrifices, but then later they sacrifice this really important guy, so now our sacrificing quota is covered-- was that not The Bible?

You say the comments about Christianity in this thread are off-base. There were two people commenting about Christianity in this thread, and one of them was overtly making a point about misinterpreting someone else's religion. Hi.
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Old 02-20-2014, 02:06 PM   #13
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Re: Danny Carey/Aleister Crowley Relation

muhahaha http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DM6jpwX1OjY

sapere aude, my friends!
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Old 04-08-2014, 04:38 PM   #14
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Re: Danny Carey/Aleister Crowley Relation

Thanks SpiralOut34 for the only thoughtful response here. Even though I disagree. Also, thanks to dancingflame for that link which I'd already seen but I think more people should see it. You guys are why I came back to post, not because of these brain dead fanboys whom I could really care less about because they're too far gone to converse with anyways.

I'm just going to quote ShiningOne (Another poster) who brought up the same issues in another thread which I recommend people check out. His thread is titled, "Tool and the Occult"

"Aleister Crowley was, and I didn't know the guy--do your own research--seemingly a dirtbag of a man. He was racist, chauvinist, a drug addict and sexual deviant. I've read that his last words were something along the lines of 'I'm an unhappy man.'"

I feel the same way having done the research. Which it is likely that fanboys of lower intelligence would never actually do the research. It's ok. Keep worshiping Tool. Go back to sleep and everything will be OK.

Here's another link that I think people should see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLoUQPC0BzM

Heh...It seems every time I check the Tool newsletter there's something about collecting Crowley crap. Pretty sad.

If I had the chance to interview Tool or Maynard, I'd ask him....Why haven't you ever done any songs mentioning/dissing Muhammad or any other prophet or martyr? Why just single out Jesus? If you disagree with his teachings, why do you think that gives you reason to curse him? But you're never going to get answers to those questions because the only people they let interview them are brain dead fans as well. But, oh I forgot, he did sing on this number "Muhummad, my friend" with the satanic Tori Amos. Don't even try to defend Tori Amos unless you're a satanist yourself because in case you didn't know she has a song called, "Father Lucifer" and you can read many quotes about her love for satan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P_33BbQlBg&feature=kp

So all the hate for Jesus but all the love for Muhummad. Kind of makes you wonder, doesn't it?

Anyways, in my opinion they're being really stupid because they're actually alienating a big portion of their fan base who actually use their brains. I mean we kind of overlooked a few things out of the love that we have for their music and we just don't listen to the songs that blatantly put down the lord like, "Opiate", "Sober", and "Eulogy" because of freedom of speech and maybe we assume that Maynard has matured out of his hatred towards the lord. But, that can't be it because they still are playing Opiate live. I guess you're just going to curse the lord until you're dead, huh? Little angry Maynard. You just can't help yourself, can ya?

Also, maybe because then we were more of lukewarm Christians and now we're real Christians. And honestly with corruption coming at you from all angles and the future looking very grim (Yes, the New World Order is real) maybe it's time for us to be spiritually prepared and come to know your lord and savior Jesus Christ.

But, either way, supporting this Aleister Crowley guy should be enough to alienate an even bigger portion of their fans who actually use their brains whether they're Christians or not. It's already been established long ago that Crowley was a nasty guy so there's not much to argue about there. And I've been to 8 Tool concerts so I can very easily tell intelligent Tool fans from brain dead Tool fans so don't even bother replying if you're not a thoughtful person because you will not get a reply from me.
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Old 04-08-2014, 05:03 PM   #15
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Re: Danny Carey/Aleister Crowley Relation

Quote:
Originally Posted by twinheads View Post
If I had the chance to interview Tool or Maynard, I'd ask him....Why haven't you ever done any songs mentioning/dissing Muhammad or any other prophet or martyr?
“vile minds think it a vile book”
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Old 04-08-2014, 11:38 PM   #16
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Re: Danny Carey/Aleister Crowley Relation

Just my favorite parts:

Quote:
Originally Posted by twinheads View Post
Which it is likely that fanboys of lower intelligence would never actually do the research. It's ok. Keep worshiping Tool. Go back to sleep and everything will be OK.
Quote:
Heh...It seems every time I check the Tool newsletter there's something about collecting Crowley crap. Pretty sad.
Quote:
If I had the chance to interview Tool or Maynard, I'd ask him....Why haven't you ever done any songs mentioning/dissing Muhammad or any other prophet or martyr?
Quote:
Don't even try to defend Tori Amos unless you're a satanist yourself because in case you didn't know she has a song called, "Father Lucifer" and you can read many quotes about her love for satan.
Quote:
So all the hate for Jesus but all the love for Muhummad. Kind of makes you wonder, doesn't it?
Quote:
Anyways, in my opinion they're being really stupid because they're actually alienating a big portion of their fan base who actually use their brains.
Quote:
I guess you're just going to curse the lord until you're dead, huh? Little angry Maynard. You just can't help yourself, can ya?
Quote:
then we were more of lukewarm Christians and now we're real Christians.
Quote:
maybe it's time for us to be spiritually prepared and come to know your lord and savior Jesus Christ.
Quote:
supporting this Aleister Crowley guy should be enough to alienate an even bigger portion of their fans who actually use their brains
Quote:
And I've been to 8 Tool concerts so I can very easily tell intelligent Tool fans from brain dead Tool fans so don't even bother replying if you're not a thoughtful person because you will not get a reply from me.
Tool hasn't released an album for like 8 years, FYI.
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Old 04-09-2014, 02:05 AM   #17
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Re: Danny Carey/Aleister Crowley Relation

All these fanboys can do is quote my posts without saying anything for themselves.

I thought your masters taught you to "think for yourself."
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Old 04-09-2014, 03:17 AM   #18
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Re: Danny Carey/Aleister Crowley Relation

They also teach that over thinking and over analysing separates the body from the mind and withers intuition.
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Old 04-09-2014, 05:40 AM   #19
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Re: Danny Carey/Aleister Crowley Relation

People who use their brains still believe in Jesus Christ?
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Old 04-09-2014, 06:03 AM   #20
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Re: Danny Carey/Aleister Crowley Relation

or the king james version of...?
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Old 04-13-2014, 02:37 PM   #21
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Re: Danny Carey/Aleister Crowley Relation

people should read more books in general...
funny how incapable some people are when it comes to irony...

http://www.youtube.com/user/RAWarchive

sapere aude (again- but i guess kant was also a satanist)!

love

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Old 08-08-2014, 03:33 PM   #22
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Re: Danny Carey/Aleister Crowley Relation

I feel the occult is a thing of true beauty to those that can see, an extravagance to those who cannot. However, I also feel that, since AC thrust himself into the limelight concerning his occult knowledge that he simply did not get it. It is said that he died saying "I am perplexed" and mired in the illusory world as he was, I am not surprised.
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Old 08-13-2014, 08:12 AM   #23
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Re: Danny Carey/Aleister Crowley Relation

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.

Come down.
Get off your fucking cross.
We need the fuckin space.
To nail the next fool martyr.

May I graciously add, you are the entire and complete irefutable antithesis of everything, my personal experience with Tool & the occult stands for.

Crowley offers one of the best formulas for attaining a plethora of altered states.
Without any hint of the profane, the illegal or even the "ungodly".
Is this not the reason why we gather here, to fill the empty unknowing void with the omniferous, eternal glow of our love. Beacons of experience on the outskirts of reality.
Guides calling out to the blinded husks of oblivion who tread still stupified by their vivisection from the amniotic realms.

If you wish to know read for yourself. Anyone can make a youtube video.
Crowley was censored and condemned in much the same way Tool were.

The great work continues, the sacrifice begins.

Love is the law, love under will.

Last edited by apocalope; 08-13-2014 at 08:13 AM.. Reason: mispelt
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Old 08-13-2014, 08:21 AM   #24
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Re: Danny Carey/Aleister Crowley Relation

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People who use their brains still believe in Jesus Christ?
Jeff: 3:16
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Old 08-14-2014, 01:17 PM   #25
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Re: Danny Carey/Aleister Crowley Relation

We should all just stop worrying about each other's beliefs and enjoy the music.
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Old 08-22-2014, 07:43 PM   #26
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Re: Danny Carey/Aleister Crowley Relation

Well, it is a thread about beliefs so it is something worth talking about. I would also add that if you are truly interested in the occult references in the lyrics etc. it is beneficial to look at sources other than Mr Crowley like the hermetic texts (the divine pymander, the emerald tablet etc.). Then you will see that the true teachings are not hidden under grotesque symbols such as child sacrifice.
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Old 08-22-2014, 08:30 PM   #27
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Re: Danny Carey/Aleister Crowley Relation

did that last sentence make sense? i just woke up. (no, not figuratively) i read it as ...the true teachings become less veiled the more you realize -how- they were "hidden under grotesque symbols (such as child sacrifice)" ...suggesting, as crowley states in his autobiography (known to him as an auto-hagiography, or "the hag") "the confessions of aleister crowley (the spirit of solitude)": vile minds think it a vile book. a good (better?) starting point for a.c. is kenneth grant's "aleister crowley and the hidden god" and "the magick revival"
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Old 08-24-2014, 04:06 AM   #28
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Re: Danny Carey/Aleister Crowley Relation

Well of course that is his and his disciples take on his own teachings. Think about it from the point of view that thoughts alter reality. It is images of beauty that raise the consciousness, not those that, at least on the surface, depict inherently evil acts. No matter the intent, it is a disservice to mankind to veil the sacred under the obscene. This especially applies for those who are not well versed in the use of symbolism. Hearing "child sacrifice" from "the wickedest man in the world" isn't likely to benefit the collective more than harm it.
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Old 08-24-2014, 10:07 AM   #29
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Re: Danny Carey/Aleister Crowley Relation

Hey guys I have this honest question it's totally just curiosity, but please don't give me any answers except the ones I want you to.
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Old 08-24-2014, 10:27 AM   #30
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Re: Danny Carey/Aleister Crowley Relation

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Maybe I'm ignorant, maybe I'm missing a piece of this puzzle.

...but ...no. i'm definitely not.
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Old 03-02-2015, 04:17 PM   #31
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Re: Danny Carey/Aleister Crowley Relation

Aleister Crowley was a complex man. Taking a few thing he said out of context will not give a clear picture of his teachings. The children he spoke of sacrificing was sperm, he was talking about masterbation. No one knows what is last words were, he was in his room alone when he died. Crowley suffered from acute asthma brought on by years of mountain climbing (he was at the forefront of mountaineering in his time) and heroin was often prescribed by doctors for asthma at the time. Anyone that is interested in Crowley/Thelema, please do some real research their are a lot of lies spread around the "net" about both subjects.
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Old 07-28-2015, 08:47 AM   #32
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Re: Danny Carey/Aleister Crowley Relation

From the information available on the band members' beliefs (especially Maynard and Carey), it doesn't seem like they spend hardly any time directly advocating the teachings of the occult, although their interest in the occult is obvious. It seems that their view on religion is colored much more by their personal experiences with religion (i.e. Maynard especially in Perfect Circle's "Judith"), and less by Crowley's actual teachings.
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