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Old 12-13-2002, 01:09 AM   #1
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Try this.

I know I've already made a weak post attempting to explain my perspective on the song, but I feel I need to say it again because I don't think people are really "getting" it.

Yes, a lot of people have said it's about opening up and so on... and that is true. It is about opening up...

but it's not about opening up to another human being.

It's about Maynard opening up and actually embracing God into his heart, mind and soul.

I think Maynard has always had trouble truly believing in God. (I realize I shouldn't make assumptions like that, but for the sake of this opinion, it needs to be said.)
Despite the fact that he's repeatedly denied God into his heart and mind in the past... he has always "felt" a divine presence within self that couldn't be ignored.

That "presence" is the author of 4 degrees.
That "presence" is the author of 4 degrees.
That "presence" is the author of 4 degrees

So when you hear the words to 4 degrees.... You should hear it as God talking/singing/pleading ... to Maynard.

I know you know the words/advice..., but I am posting them anyway... now read them as if it's God speaking TO Maynard.
Faaip de Oaid...

Get up - free yourself from yourself.
Locked up inside you like the calm beneath castles is a cavern of treasures, that no one has been to... Let's go digging.

You won't do what you'd like to do ("do" = in his mind)
(so) lay back and let ME show you another way...
I'll kill what you want Me to
take what's left and eat it
(but) take all or nothing
(Life's) just too short to push It (Me) away...
Take It all
Take It all in
All the way in
Let it go
Let It go in.

You won't feel what you'd like to feel (feel = in his heart)
Lay back and let Me show you another way...
I'll kill what you want Me to
take what's left and eat it
(but maynard), take All or nothing
life's just too short to lock It up...
If you knock Me down
I'll just come back running... (God is persistent )
knock you down
it won't be long now....
All the way in
All the way
Take it up higher
4 degrees now
4 degrees warmer
Give in now and let ME in.
I know you'll like This .. this brings Us out.

It brings US closer than dying and cancer and crying..........

take It, take It in ......

Come on
You can take IT all.
Just like that.

"This brings Us closer than dying and cancer and crying."
=
People pray to God in their perceived time of need.
You're upset someone has, or might DIE... you might pray.
Someone diagnosed with CANCER..... you might pray.
You're simply upset or confused about something that has you in tears.... you might pray.
This line is basically God explaining that They'd have a much closer/meaningful/appropriate bond if Maynard (or anyone) had God in their heart and mind at all times.... and not merely in those times you feel compelled to pray out of fear/vulnerability... necessity

The song was written through a sexual metaphor, yes. But it's only a smokescreen for the reader.

The vunlerability and emotion in "Maynard's" voice in this song is so powerful and undeniable.

It's my one request that you take out Undertow, put 4 degrees on... and hear it from this perspective. (God singing to Maynard)
I guarantee if you give it an honest try... you'll see, feel, and understand what I am talking about.

Try it.

P.S. I'm not on here promoting God to people. I've had, and continue to have many questions about my own beliefs...
I'm just telling you the perspective from which the song is written from, and meant to be heard and processed from.

Now go put 4 degrees on and try it..... it will change You.
Feel It move across your skin...

Last edited by ThreeDeviations; 12-13-2002 at 01:23 AM..
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Old 12-13-2002, 09:44 AM   #2
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Decent, better that the other one. You do make assumptions, however, that I would not make. I don't have reason to believe Maynard has struggled with God for a long time. I think he might have problems with the Christian version of God, as I do, but as for actually struggling with God, he would have to believe in the christian idea of God to do that. I do think he is not necessarily talking from his perspective, I don't think in Tool he ever does. The guys have made it clear in interviews and their music that the point is to push your ego aside. If you do that, you really have no sense of Self and therefore become a vessel for the light, not a message from yourSelf. So I think it is the voice of intuition calling out in this song, telling us what we already knew but forgot. There's treasure there, we just gotta remember how to find it and use it.

Thank you so much for calling the sexual metaphor a smokescreen for the reader.
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Old 12-13-2002, 10:38 AM   #3
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Re:

Ego?
This song is the epitome of putting aside (crucifying) your ego.... not vice versa.

Also, it's not a message from self to self...

It's a message from God to Maynard.

So not self to self... or human to human, which I already stated...

Also, I did NOT assume it's necessarily a "traditional God," either.

However, I AM talking about whatever God means... in his own mind, body and soul.

That "light" to which you refer, is this song manifested on paper.. then through music.. I certainly don't think that's selfish.

As I said, there have to be some assumptions made.... Just like how you assumed he doesn't believe in a traditional God.

xo
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Old 12-15-2002, 02:10 PM   #4
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Wan

If this is the case, then the god trying to break into Maynards conciousness certainly isn't a benevolent one. The picture painted by the speaker is not one of patience and understanding, it is one of urgency, demand, and lust. Look at all of the forcefull energy. Not forcefull as in determined, forcefull as in a bending of will. The speaker is doing nothing short of attacking the recipient's (of the words) resolve. This being the case, I highly doubt Maynard, if he is the listener, would give in to such demands. If one can find a positive connotation to the feelings of a rapist (which is undoubtedly the mindset of the speaker, not taking no for an answer) then I can see why one would give in and "take it all" from the speaker. If one sees the negative, attacking, obsessive feelings of the speaker, however they will fight the speaker's will to the end.

This song is about fools who open up for pressure.

Any speaker with a positive intent would never act so forcefully.

Adding Tool quotes into every sentence applicable only discredits opinions and theories as more of a stretch, be careful.
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Old 12-15-2002, 06:00 PM   #5
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Clarity

I don't see why you perceive the song in a negative light.(rapist theme)

I certainly do not agree with that. You say because the "speaker" is too "forceful" and "urgent."

Yes. That's the point. God's will/desire IS persistent/urgent.
However, being persistent isn't synonymous with negativity.

I am trying to think of the lines in the song that would make you feel that it's from a "rapist" perspective.

Yes, the "Speaker" in the song won't take no for an answer.... because He ultimately knows what's best for "maynard." He's also already waited 30+ years for Maynard... How long is he supposed to wait before there's a sense of urgency in his Voice? As he says in Reflection... "Crucify the ego... before it's far too late."

"Knock me down I'll just come back running." Isn't a negative line... it's just God saying he's going to be persistent.

"Take it all in." Just means that God wants him to embrace all that is good.

And you say it's written with "lust" in mind. "Lust" paired with your rapist theme... are you speaking in a physical or spiritual sense when you say that?

also, you say, in respect to how I perceive the song.... then the "Speaker is not one of patience and understanding.."

Let's assume I have a daughter for the sake of an analogy.
She wants to go outside in the middle of winter without a coat on. I tell her not to... but she INSISTS ON IGNORING MY WISHES AND ADVICE. So finally I have to say "No! You're not going outside without a damn coat on! I love you too much to see you get really sick (or die forever) for not wearing a darn coat!"
Is that somewhat "Forceful? Urgent? Demanding?" Yes.
I had to be in order for her to listen... or "get the message through to her." It's the same thing in the song-

I still suggest you give the song a listen from "my" perspective before you negate it.

The vulnerability in the voice fo the speaker in 4 degrees has so much emotion and vulnerability in it... I don't see how that equates to a rapist. Yes, some of the words I could understand how you'd draw that conclusion. But the vulnerabilty and emotion I hear in the voice of the speaker certainly does not remind me of a rapist. Like I said, the song is riddled in sexual metaphor... (your rapist idea)
but the meaning and the metaphor are total opposites, which also makes the song ironic in a sense.

Anyhow... I respect your opinion nonetheless-

xo
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Old 12-15-2002, 09:26 PM   #6
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Lat

To be perfectly honest, I like your interpretation much better than mine. Much more positive. I believe that if that's what someone takes from the song, that is wonderful, if you can find happiness in a forced way of thinking.

I am certainly not interpreting the song on a purely physical level, in fact not at all. We clearly both disregard the veil of physicality that cloaks the lyrics. Mentally, however, I believe the song clearly has the intrusiveness of rape.

If God gave free will, then giving mandates and forcing his way on someone directly contradicts HIS (The Christian God is verifiably a man) "gift" of free will.

If God gave free will, he certainly would not follow up this gift by (and I stress this word) --ordering-- "Take it all. Take it all in. All the way. All the way in. Let it go." Those are clearly orders that deny the recipient Free Will. Not suggestions, not options, mandates.

That is rape. My point may be illustrated better if the rapist thinks the victim enjoys it. They won't take resistance as an answer, and continue to have their (God's) way. If God thinks opening up is better, but the victim (as one being forced can only be described) resists, too bad.


You'll notice how the recipient of the lyrics (if indeed Maynard) not ONCE responds as enjoying the process. The only lines that indicate the recipient's actions/views are "Let it Go, Don't Pull it out" Nothing but resistance.

Also giving the lyrics a negative fervor is the comparison at the end. I must stress that this is clearly a comparison, where similarities are admitted...not contrasts where they are effectively dis-associated.

It brings us closer than dying and cancer and crying.

"IT (The subject of the song)" is hanging with a pretty rough crowd.

One more :) the "vulnerability" (which I fail to see...I will try harder, for it is my weakness) that you believe the speaker to have. Does that describe God? I would much sooner equate God to a rapist than describe him as vulnerable....that negates what the Bible is built on...the infallibility of God.

Thanks not only for your response, but for your time as well.
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Old 12-16-2002, 09:25 AM   #7
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Re: Re:

Quote:
Originally posted by ThreeDeviations
Ego?
This song is the epitome of putting aside (crucifying) your ego.... not vice versa.

Also, it's not a message from self to self...

It's a message from God to Maynard.

So not self to self... or human to human, which I already stated...

Also, I did NOT assume it's necessarily a "traditional God," either.

However, I AM talking about whatever God means... in his own mind, body and soul.

That "light" to which you refer, is this song manifested on paper.. then through music.. I certainly don't think that's selfish.

As I said, there have to be some assumptions made.... Just like how you assumed he doesn't believe in a traditional God.

xo
easy, I wasnt saying anyone is wrong. You say its a message from God to Maynard, I say it's a message from intuition to ego. Same thing, different scale.

How many times has the Christian version of God smitten those who went against his will? It will show that although we have free will to accept Him or reject Him, he still has a plan and that plan includes rolling over anyone who gets in the way. Therefore, I don't see it as a God who rapes, or anything that rapes. the speaker in the song is discussing treasure. What appear to be orders are instructions. If you want to get the treasure, here is what you need to do. If you don't, then fuck it. Ignore it. But you will probably be sorry later.

Last edited by paraflux; 12-16-2002 at 09:31 AM..
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Old 12-16-2002, 10:27 AM   #8
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M. Doughty

There is a difference between ending up sorry through personal choice and being "smitten" by a control freak rolling over His enemies, just to spite your decision.

The treasure is being looked at by the speaker.......the recipient isn't realizing his inner treasure..........a treasure the speaker covets, not necessarily wants to reveal to the recipient.

The song is saying if you ignore it, I'll fuck you......not fuck it.


The speaker tells the recipient to "bring it (The treasure) out, and let it go".....certainly not use it yourself.
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Old 12-16-2002, 01:03 PM   #9
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Re: Lat

Quote:
Originally posted by Clarity
. I believe that if that's what someone takes from the song, that is wonderful, if you can find happiness in a forced way of thinking.

One more :) the "vulnerability" (which I fail to see...I will try harder, for it is my weakness) that you believe the speaker to have. Does that describe God? I would much sooner equate God to a rapist than describe him as vulnerable....that negates what the Bible is built on...the infallibility of God.

You insist on calling this a "forced" way of thinking.
I definitely don't think it's "forced."
Urgent? Yes
Forced? No

"Crawl Away" was written with more of a "rapist" mentality, musically and lyrically. Hear the anger and resentment in that song? The music also has an edge that flows and coincides with the lyrics...
The music, lyrics, emotion in 4 degrees all agree, too. But it's not the feel of a demanding rapist's mentality, like it is, (or could be) in "crawl away."

"What you want and what you need don't mean a fuck to me."
Those lyrics, the music.. and the tone / emotion in Maynard's voice, support this sort of "rapist" mentality. All of the variables agree. (words, tone, emotion, music)

That is a similar mentality you say "he" had when he wrote 4 degrees?? Yet, the music, tone and emotion in his voice for 4 degrees is TOTALLY different. (I feel the words are too... but I suppose that's debatable- but the other variables are not in question)

As for the "vulnerbality" in the singer's voice in 4 degrees. We have to remember that although the lyrics were inspired by God, it is Maynard, the human being... that's singing the actual song. So yes, I do think there's some vulnerabilty in MAYNARD's voice... and just pure honest emoton.
(So I really wasn't suggesting "God" was vulnerable... although I understand why you had that conclusion. I described it poorly)

Back to the "forced" way of thinking...

The words "free yourself from yourself" isn't "forced." It also does not have any sort of negative connotation attached to it.
"Freeing yourself" is something that has to be done by his own self... and how can "freeing yourself" be perceived as anything but a GOOD thing? (in any situation!)
The lyrics aren't "Let Me free yourself from yourself."

"Let's go digging." Is God suggesting/pleading... not being overwhelmingly demanding and apathetic toward "Maynard."
After all... The contraction "Let's" is "LET US." He repeatedly says the words "let me" or "let us" in the song... suggesting that there needs to be cooperation on both sides in order for this to work. Cooperation is the antithesis of rape.

"You won't do what you'd like to do... lay back and LET me show you another way... "

same thing here...God is pleading for Maynard's "permission" so He can show him another way. (another way for Maynard to perceive life and God)

Let's assume it is "God" speaking to Maynard in the song... which we've already established-
I say it's a positive plea.. advice... to Maynard.
You're saying it's demanding, lustful, sort of a "rapist's" mentality.
If that's your perspective, then you're saying Maynard would LIKE to be "raped" by God... since he "won't do what he'd LIKE TO DO."
I doubt Maynard would LIKE to be raped by God or any thing.

The only way "raped" could make sense in my opinion is if it were God coming into Maynard's heart, mind, soul... and "raping" all of the negativity from his existence.
"Kill WHAT YOU WANT me to."

how about the line...
"Just too short to push it away." Under your perspective it's basically God saying... 'Cmon Maynard, life's too short to not wanna be emotionally raped."

"Kill what you want me to" is another line that suggests that it's voluntary. He says "I'll kill What YOU WANT me to."
He doesn't say.... "I'll kill WHAT I WANT to."

"This brings us closer than dying and cancer and crying."
So according to you, this is God saying that this "rape" will bring them closer than dying and cancer and crying???
How does that make sense in your theme? I didn't understand that in your last post.

In my theme... It's God explaining that if Maynard accepted Him into his heart, mind and soul ALL of the time... then they'd be a lot "closer" than when Maynard (or whoever) might feel compelled to pray. (If someone has cancer, or someone's crying, or dying... these are all times when you might feel compelled to pray out of necessity if you had a questionable/part-time/convenient relationship with God)
That line makes perfect sense in "my" perception of the song's meaning.

Under your rapist perspective the "dying, cancer and crying" are all just arbitrary words.


Listen to the contrast between Crawl Away and 4 degrees.
(assuming you'd agree about Crawl Away being written in sort of a "rapist's" theme.)

The variables of music, lyrics, emotion and tone all agree under my perception of the song's meaning. I don't think they do at all under your "rapist" approach.

Listen to the first time he says "let me show you another waaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy." I hear sadness and compassion. Not hate and lust.

(and for anyone else who's reading this who might be confused... No, I'm not saying Maynard is an actual physical "rapist" by any stretch of your imagination.)

anyhow... there's my rebuttal-

Last edited by ThreeDeviations; 12-16-2002 at 01:19 PM..
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Old 12-17-2002, 07:11 AM   #10
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there is really no need for rebuttals here. Just straight opinions. No one is "right" or "wrong" except unto themselves. If the person wants to think it's from a rapist perspective, that's fine. No one else has the right to tell them they are wrong.

Since this song is special to me, I will say that I think it's more along the lines of threedeviations but not necessarily so... personal. I think Maynard uses himself as an example and is not necessarily talking about his personal experience and that's where it ends. I think the perspective is from within each of us, every person's intuition says these things to the person if they listen enough. The treasure is what we seek, the meaning of life, etc. We each have this treasure. What we have to let go is our fear, our pride, our egos. If we let it go we can be shown another way. True selflessness, and then we can reflect the light instead of absorb it all for ourselves.
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Old 12-17-2002, 11:11 AM   #11
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paraflux

It's already known that these are all opinions.

Knowing that, "rebuttals" are what make this OPINION page so intriguing, viable and worth the time.

Also, I do have the right to passionately support my own thoughts on the song. If you interpret that as me trying to suggest absolute "right" or "wrong" then you're not remembering what you just thought you reminded me (us) of. These are all "just straight opinions."

Another thing, although I do believe this IS about Maynard's relationship (or lack of) with God, I did state that it could be "anyone" that's on the receiving end of the words.
(The original post on this thread)
Not solely / necessarily Maynard.

ThreeDeviations
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Old 12-18-2002, 05:30 PM   #12
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Sexual abuse

Personally I liked both your opinions on this song and see positivity coming out from both. One important factor in the interpretation of this song is the sexual imagery. When a person is raped he is FORCED to believe that love is given and supposed to be received a certain way (forceful and in form of rape). Every human being needs love and needs to give and receive it. Sexual abuse causes trauma and turbulence in that person's balance, he gets flashbacks, sexual imagery is stamped into his brain, cannot communicate. He falls victim to a hungry, dirty programmed negative ego that transforms his intuition into a menacing demon that wants to let out anger and sexual frustration. He has also closed himself from himself.

This song can be interpreted as a man's long repressed and imprisoned desires and intuition trying to communicate with the stubborn and closed persona to open up and allow it to enter and flow through the body. Create oneness between mind and body.

In another way I think this song can be interpreted as God's voice reaching up with compassion to show the way. God is persistent, in this way I feel the song to be optimistic.

Either way, this is the way of the Kundalini, it begins at the root chakra at the bottom of the spine near the anus and moves up. Anything blocking it will not allow it to move further. An overthinker will separate the body from the mind and whither the intuition to the point where will is required but is not applied in a balanced manner until a certain recognition and self-love occurs, brought on by communication involving the dissolution of the ego and its falsities which create the lock on the door in the first place, dissallowing the two lobes to interact freely. Hence the hexagonal (criss-crossing) shape of the movement of the kundalini energy acts to intersect and allow the communication to occur moving and allowing love to flow the body, giving birth to colours, and the true recognition of individuals.

Thanks and now back to masterbation.
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