Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
I think Undertow is a brilliant album, but it gets annoying after a while because it's just so bleak and serious, and the lack of any real tune or melody is kind of annoying too.. and it has a bit of a red neck vibe to it, like.. rocking chairs, shotguns and inbreds.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
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Originally Posted by MrMcPheezy
Yes, but musical quality is not.
Oh, my lord. You're now going to argue that quality is completely objective? That's not even the point.
This guy stated a preference. He stated that he prefers one album over the other. That is a purely subjective statement. He didn't say that Undertow had higher production quality or anything else (which is still subjective, but I digress).
He stated an opinion and you broke out the objectivity soapbox. Now look where we are.
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The fact that you don't understand the objective aspects of music doesn't mean that they don't exist.
This isn't about the objective parts of music, assuming they exist in the context that you claim them to. This is about one man's subjective opinion that Undertow is the best Tool album.
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I understand that, because of your ignorance of music's objective aspects, you feel that way.
You and I are going to have a problem, as long as you're wearing your blinders and dancing around on that soapbox.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
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Originally Posted by MrMcPheezy
Again, one of the problems I have is that HIS CURRENT OPINION has no bearing on the quality of the music.
Until you can produce an objective set of measures to which we can gauge any piece of music in recorded history, you need to throw that soapbox back into the closet.
We can play the, "Your opinion is flawed, because you're ignorant to the quality of the focus of that opinion," game all day long, but that's hardly productive at this point.
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Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
This thread needs an enema.
__________________ Let us now, as Futurists, enter one of these hospitals for anaemic sounds. There: the first bar brings the boredom of familiarity to your ear and anticipates the boredom of the bar to follow. Let us relish, from bar to bar, two or three varieties of genuine boredom, waiting all the while for the extraordinary sensation that never comes.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
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Originally Posted by MrMcPheezy
Had he simply said that he liked undertow more than all other tool albums, I wouldn't have given a fuck.
But that's not what he said. He said it was ">".
... *blank stare*.
You've got to be fucking kidding me.
Let's create two statements, shall we?
1. In my opinion, Undertow is my favorite Tool album.
2. In my opinion, Undertow > {Aenima, Lateralus}
Those statements are equivalent. To say that, "Undertow is my favorite Tool album," is to imply that Undertow is, in said opinion, better than Aenima and Lateralus. The continued inference, then is that, "Undertow > {Aenima, Lateralus}".
You're arguing semantics here, which is completely counterproductive.
If you want a debate on the production quality and the timbre and all the other technical aspects of one album vs another, that's one thing. If you want to tell this guy that he's an idiot because you think his opinion is either poorly or completely unfounded, that's something else all-together.
To declare the former is to invoke an honest debate, to which many people may subscribe. To declare the latter is to label yourself an ignorant fool and publically display your inability to understand logical eqivalencies and generic pseudo-English.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
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Originally Posted by Chris_Brightwell
Those statements are equivalent. To say that, "Undertow is my favorite Tool album," is to imply that Undertow is, in said opinion, better than Aenima and Lateralus.
You're missing the whole point, man. Whether undertow is better/worse than anything else is not an opinion.
1. Undertow is my favorite tool album.
2. Undertow is better than any other tool album.
Those statements are completely fucking different.
An example I've used before:
My aunt fucking loves listening to my 7 year old cousin sing. I'm sure my aunt would hate listening to Maynard to sing.
Does this give my aunt the right to state that my fucking 7 year old cousin is a better vocalist than maynard? No, fucking of course not. All it gives her the right to say is that she'd rather listen to my cousin. Nothing else. It is an objective fact that maynard is a far superious vocalist, no matter which of the two my aunt might rather listen to.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
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Originally Posted by Chris_Brightwell
And you really think, in this context, that's a fair example?
Your example is almost a comparison of black and white, whereas the topic at hand is more an comparison of two shades of grey.
But if you agree that objectivity exists when comparing my cousin to maynard, why would it disappear simply because the difference between the two things being compared as decreased? If art can be compared objectively, as you've admitted it can, then it can regardless of the things being compared.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
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Originally Posted by magdalena_jane
fixed and your point is fucked.
I've already been over this.
Whether one album is better or worse than an other has nothing to do with anyone's opinion of the albums being compared. So, it is your point that is fucked.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
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Originally Posted by MrMcPheezy
If art can be compared objectively, as you've admitted it can, then it can regardless of the things being compared.
Now you're putting words in my mouth, which I don't appreciate.
Comparing your sister to Maynard, vocally, is more of a comparison of ability than it is quality of art. Comparing Undertow to Aenima is actually a comparison of art, which I uniformally consider to be unfair and inapporpriate.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
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Originally Posted by Chris_Brightwell
Now you're putting words in my mouth, which I don't appreciate.
'twas not intentional. I thought I was merely rephrasing what you have said.
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Originally Posted by Chris_Brightwell
Comparing your cousin to Maynard, vocally, is more of a comparison of ability than it is quality of art. Comparing Undertow to Aenima is actually a comparison of art, which I uniformally consider to be unfair and inapporpriate.
Both albums were created while their creators had different amounts of ability. Maynard's said it numerous times. They take a long time in between albums so that they can grow as musicians from one album to the next.
The ability of the artists and the quality of the art go hand in hand to at least some extent.
They were better song writers when they wrote Lateralus than they were when they wrote Undertow. Hence, Lateralus is a better piece of art than Undertow.
I don't see why my analogy isn't appropriate.
My aunt prefers the sound of my cousin's voice (or, the art her ability allows her to produce) to the sound maynard's voice (or, the art his ability allows him to produce). Again. Does that give her the right to say that her voice is better than maynard's?
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Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
Correction: McPheezy and Brightwell need enemas.
__________________ Let us now, as Futurists, enter one of these hospitals for anaemic sounds. There: the first bar brings the boredom of familiarity to your ear and anticipates the boredom of the bar to follow. Let us relish, from bar to bar, two or three varieties of genuine boredom, waiting all the while for the extraordinary sensation that never comes.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
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Originally Posted by MrMcPheezy
They were better song writers when they wrote Lateralus than they were when they wrote Undertow. Hence, Lateralus is a better piece of art than Undertow.
I don't see why my analogy isn't appropriate.
It's because you're forcing a positive correlation which doesn't necessarily exist. Your implication is that no matter what, the next release will be technically superior to its predecessor, which is a flawed claim.
If it were true, TV shows would never be cancelled and bands would never be dropped from record labels. The next Hellraiser movie might even be good!
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My aunt prefers the sound of my cousin's voice (or, the art her ability allows her to produce) to the sound maynard's voice (or, the art his ability allows him to produce).
I still contest that this example is unfair and inappropriate. There are a lot of things in your counsin's favor here, including the fact that she's your aunt's daughter (or neice, since you've never made that relationship clear).
If it were an unbiased preference, that would be one thing, but it's not. That's why I consider your aunt/cousin example unfair and inappropriate.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
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Originally Posted by MrMcPheezy
'twas not intentional. I thought I was merely rephrasing what you have said.
Both albums were created while their creators had different amounts of ability. Maynard's said it numerous times. They take a long time in between albums so that they can grow as musicians from one album to the next.
The ability of the artists and the quality of the art go hand in hand to at least some extent.
They were better song writers when they wrote Lateralus than they were when they wrote Undertow. Hence, Lateralus is a better piece of art than Undertow.
I don't see why my analogy isn't appropriate.
My aunt prefers the sound of my cousin's voice (or, the art her ability allows her to produce) to the sound maynard's voice (or, the art his ability allows him to produce). Again. Does that give her the right to say that her voice is better than maynard's?
Until you come up with a formula, or point system, your way of ranking songs is still subjective. Who are you to say that song writing is the only way to measure art. What about emotion, what about lyrical quality, etc. And then, whos to say which is more important than the other?
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Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
bluefire could use one as well.
__________________ Let us now, as Futurists, enter one of these hospitals for anaemic sounds. There: the first bar brings the boredom of familiarity to your ear and anticipates the boredom of the bar to follow. Let us relish, from bar to bar, two or three varieties of genuine boredom, waiting all the while for the extraordinary sensation that never comes.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
(sorry to interrupt your discussion guys)
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Originally Posted by killershears
I don't like thinking this way because I don't think the new album will be very Undertowish.
well, acording to john ziegler, the new album will be "meddle" meets "master of reality" meets "discipline" meets "undertow", so you still got hope..
__________________ "Perhaps we'll all come back with the band (Tool) who have expressed interest in playing both Central and South America dates on their next tour." - Blair, 2005.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
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Originally Posted by Chris_Brightwell
It's because you're forcing a positive correlation which doesn't necessarily exist. Your implication is that no matter what, the next release will be technically superior to its predecessor, which is a flawed claim.
If it were true, TV shows would never be cancelled and bands would never be dropped from record labels. The next Hellraiser movie might even be good!
Now you're putting words in my mouth. I did not say or imply that all artists attempt to improve, and I definitely did not say or imply that all succeed.
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Originally Posted by Chris_Brightwell
I still contest that this example is unfair and inappropriate. There are a lot of things in your counsin's favor here, including the fact that she's your aunt's daughter
What the hell does this matter?
My aunt prefers the sound of my cousin's voice.
Does this mean that it is ok for her to say "my daughter is a better singer than maynard james keenan"?
This is exactly the issue we're discussing. Does one's opinion serve as a reasonable strong basis for making statements regarding the quality of art? Is there any amount of objectivity that should be used when comparing art/artists, or is one's emotional/intuitive reaction all that is worth considering?
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
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Originally Posted by Isac Khrondor
I think Undertow is a brilliant album, but it gets annoying after a while because it's just so bleak and serious, and the lack of any real tune or melody is kind of annoying too.. and it has a bit of a red neck vibe to it, like.. rocking chairs, shotguns and inbreds.
Could you go into greater detail on the red neck vibe? I've never picked it up.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
I think undertow is pretty weak, actually.
the lyrics are good, but the music is pretty basic.
__________________ She whispered "Every time you justify, another good in you dies"
Your faith and fear seared me, and love and you pull all the right strings
"How we get older, how we forget about each other", she said
Entwined within the sadder of days.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
I like Undertow (if this was 3 years ago I would've said "I love it"). Buuuut, really, Swamp Song? Disguistipated? C'mon... Lateralus is light years ahead in terms of maturity.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
Ok, so what I'm really arguing against here is the idea that people can comment on the quality of music with no basis other than their own emotional reaction to it. The idea that no knowledge of music is needed comment on the quality of music.
I mean come on. Doesn't it bother you when you hear high school emo idiots saying that good charlotte is the best band ever? Who cares whether or not those high school emo idiots have an emotional connection to it or enjoy hearing it: the music good charlotte writes is still crap.
That's the mindset I'm attempting to attack here. I just hate statements like "well, I like this music, so it's better than other music. I don't know anything about music or it's technical aspects, but I'm going to say that this music is better than other music anyway, because I like it". I also hate the acceptance and defense of such statements.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
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Originally Posted by MrMcPheezy
Ok, so what I'm really arguing against here is the idea that people can comment on the quality of music with no basis other than their own emotional reaction to it. The idea that no knowledge of music is needed comment on the quality of music.
I mean come on. Doesn't it bother you when you hear high school emo idiots saying that good charlotte is the best band ever? Who cares whether or not those high school emo idiots have an emotional connection to it or enjoy hearing it: the music good charlotte writes is still crap.
That's the mindset I'm attempting to attack here. I just hate statements like "well, I like this music, so it's better than other music. I don't know anything about music or it's technical aspects, but I'm going to say that this music is better than other music anyway, because I like it". I also hate the acceptance and defense of such statements.
But what you're saying is just an opinion. These high school emo idiots not only like Good Charlotte because of the emotional connection but also because they truly do believe they are the best band ever. Everybody has different opinions on things. And what do you mean "technical aspects"? It's not as if you have to know the nuances and details of jazz saxophone to enjoy Coltrane's A Love Supreme. People like their favorite bands because they have some sort of emotional connection with the music, or it does something special for them, and any thoughts on whether said band is the best ever or whatever are just opinions, nothing more, nothing less.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
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Originally Posted by MrMcPheezy
Now you're putting words in my mouth.
I disagree, but fair enough.
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My aunt prefers the sound of my cousin's voice.
Does she prefer your counsin's voice, or does she merely prefer to listen to your counsin sing? Again, the difference here is subtle, but very important.
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Does this mean that it is ok for her to say "my daughter is a better singer than maynard james keenan"?
Parents are delusional, usually. She can say anythin gshe wants.
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This is exactly the issue we're discussing.
Again, I disagree.
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Does one's opinion serve as a reasonable strong basis for making statements regarding the quality of art?
Again, I don't think anyone here was making a statement as to the quality of art, but merely stating an opinion (as clearly indicated in the title of this thread).
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Is there any amount of objectivity that should be used when comparing art/artists, or is one's emotional/intuitive reaction all that is worth considering?
As I said before, I think comparing artists, and claiming that one is objectively better than the other, is unfair and inappropriate.
