I've never heard this as sense your enemy, and I've never heard it as saturating me. Both make since, though. I HAVE heard, however the word "enemy", and with ThreeDeviation's explanation of this song, I'd have to agree with her : sence your enemy does make more since than saturating me...although saturating me makes perfect since if you thing about the song in other contexts with which I'm not going to go into.
__________________ Public education; mind control for the masses.
Organized religion; brainwash for the soul.
National government; forced morality for the people.
i think ThreeDeviations is having a joke with us, because no one could possibly stretch out this to more than 3 posts . . .
and, i appreciate how much he/she/it hates me - it makes me feel like ive made an impression . . .
in fact, ThreeDeviations, youre "SSSSSSSSAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTUUUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRRA AAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGG MMMMMMMMMEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" with your attempted humour . . .
good for you . . .
(wow, ive actually managed to write a post of more then 3 lIneS!!!!!!!!!!111111111 wow!!!!!11111!!!11 celebration time!!!1111!!!!!!!!!!!!11) . . .
and how can you think i have a "FUCK EVERYONE" attitude (as you so eloquently put it) if i put freakin' PEACE AND BLESSED BE AT THE END OF EVERY POST?????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????? . . .
dude, your SATURATING ME with much material for laughter . . .
l don't get it...l mean...why is just repeating what crow said trying to be funny? lt's not very nice, you shouldn't mock people. l've got your back Crow.
But anywho...this is probably the favorite song on the CD. Yeah, l just thought l would say.
why do you put a "peace and blessed be" at the end of every post?
because you're trying to appear interesting, as it's a contradiction to your icon.
if you have to try, you're not.
I took the liberty of reading about 5 of your posts before I realized you were filled with total negativity. so it wasn't just speculation that you had (have) a "fuck everyone" attitude.
show some honesty and bravery in your words for once.
wow, youre actually the most fun person on this board . . .
its a shame your such an idiot . . .
heres my proof:
1) your ability to deduce what maynard is singing in a fucking song is highly under average . . . you cant even use evidence surrounding you to help you in your decision; ergo, youre an idiot . . .
2) reading 5 posts out of 1,598 proves absolutley nothing . . . statistically, you couldnt use this as evidence for ANYTHING; ergo, youre an idiot . . .
3) you seem to think im "trying" to be something im not . . . not true, and its assumption based on your previously discussed poor powers of perception, which would possibly be attributed to you having a very low intelligence; ergo, your a complete idiot . . .
im sure theres more, but fuck it, i'll save it for the next time you post in this thread . . .
1) Evidence around me? Evidence vs. opinion.... hmm.
2) You've made 1598 posts? (and if I read 1598 opinions, they magically become evidence/objective?)
3) Maybe you're not trying. Maybe you're just a tool, naturally.
But look on the bright side, at least you're going to learn the difference between "your" and "you're"... and you made a post more than 4 sentences long! Congratulations.
Some people just don't feel like typing the extra stuff...so they say your instead of you're. l don't think it's not Crow doesn't know the difference. Why are you 2 fighting, anyways?
LISTEN TO IT! Understand that the english language is NOT finite. You are allowed to tweak and change to suit your own needs. Even more so within the context of poems and songs. Which are in essence the same thing (in my opinoin anyhow). My advice to the ThreeDeviations is to read what you are saying and take your own advice. I have most of the album commited to memory and have spent a long time listening to Undertow, both the song and album. Seriously, you can hear whatever you want to, but in so convincing yourself that you are hearing "sense your enemy" further proves that you are worping it. Next time you sit down and listen to the song, do exactly that. Clear you mind and truly listen, crank that shit up if need be, you will hear it all the better. He is breaking the word 'saturating' into its syllable parts, and makes it sound as though it is more than one word. Poetic license. He tends to like to do this a lot which helps add to the uniqueness that is his singing style. If anything he does change the pronounciation of the word to suit his needs. "Sa-chur-ating me" although I do see how you could mishear it but then whose fault is that. The posted lyrics aside, just listen man. Please for your sake and the enlightenment gained there in.
"...Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities..."
Listen then speak, learn then teach, open your mind, then your mouth.
Undertolerance. You have nearly the whole cd committed to memory? Good for you. I have all of it.
However, the fact that you nearly have it memorized... and the fact that I do have it memorized... doesn't have anything to do with the phrase "sense your enemy."
You've spent a long time listening to Undertow? You have it committed to memory? It's as if you're trying to convince me of your credibility... So maybe you've listened to the cd a few times and you think you have a good idea of what he's saying... but since you think this matters, I can assure you that you have not listened to it more than me, or have a better understanding about the entire cd, or this particular song, Undertow.
You think I am "worping" it. (warping) You think I need to open up my mind? How do you think it was that I first realized that he says "sense your enemy?" Because I was closed-minded? Think about what you're saying... or adhere to the last line of your post to me... that you plagiarized from somewhere.
It's funny too that your first point was that our language is not "finite." This tells me that you accept the fact that you don't hear "saturating me" when he sings that. You imply that Maynard, or anyone who writes or sings can blend and distort words and sounds however they'd like. So you definitely acknowledge that there's distortion to the phrase. Maybe you should think about that. Open your own mind, and try not to be such a hypocrite.
I suggest you take the time to read all of the posts under this thread, but I doubt you'd have the willingness and concentration to do so. One point you should very seriously consider is one that I've already made in a previous post, which you probably never bothered to read. So for your sake, I'll mention it again. If in the posted lyrics section, Maynard had posted it as "sense your enemy"... and then some person had come to this opinion page and made a post that he's not really saying "sense your enemy..." and that they think he's saying "saturating me" instead, people like you would be the first people in line to squash it. You'd say something like "you're warping it" or... "open your mind and truly listen."
But one thing you wouldn't say is "understand that the language is not finite." Because there'd be no reason to attempt to justify why the phrase didn't sound like what was posted on the lyrics page... because it really would sound the same.
You suggest for me to "listen." Awwhhh, the irony.
You're the same type of person who cannot hear close enough so I can "drown" you, in Prison Sex, too...
So yeah, go listen to Prison Sex- (the 2nd time through that phrase) and then you can come back and make another post and telling me I'm wrong again, and to "just listen man!"
Glad to see you broke down the phrase "Sa-chur-ating me" for me. Say those 2 words out loud a couple times. You cannot say "saturating" without pronouncing the "ate" sound. There is clearly no sound like that when he says the phrase... but why would there be? He says "sense your enemy." But whose fault is that? Blame it on diction.. or say language isn't finite. However you want to justify it will be entertaining for me. Here's a suggestion, say the word "humidity." That's a word where regardless of where you really put the emphasis.. in terms of which syllable gets the emphasis, the word sounds the same.
"Saturating" is not one of the words.
I've planted the seed in your mind... you'll try to smother it in your soiled mind... but eventually the truth will blossom so clearly, so loudly.. that it will demolish your walls and stain your conscience with truth.
but you're...
"Wide awake and keeping distance.
Nothing seems to penetrate her.
She's scared as hell..."
You are frightened to-
Listen then speak, learn then teach, open your mind, then your mouth. - Undertolerance, "Earth" (deep)
Last edited by ThreeDeviations; 02-16-2004 at 05:59 PM..
I have read your final post and have taken into account what you have said. And have listened to the track again and again. Yes I am saying that it can be easily misunderstood what he is saying, thus the disagreement that insue. That was said as a disclaimer to what I hear that he is saying. I oft change the pronunciation of words to better suit what I am trying to say or sing, and have also spent years listening to Tool. Now I am not about to go around saying I have any better understanding of what Maynard is trying or not trying to say. I am also not about to say that I have listened to the CD more than you, an ignorant comment by yourself, but forgivable. I am not the type to go around calling you an idiot either, because I am just not that way and you proven that in fact you are not, perhaps a little bullheaded but not stupid.
It makes me greave when I see others so quick to toss that out because they feel that they know so much more than anyone else. I am by no means a genious, nor a moron, or idiot even. Truth be told you are open to interpret the song and the CD however you see fit, and to what ever end suits you. I as well, can do the same. I say that people stop running around trying to seem like they are so damn smart and quick to point the finger. Becuase you have more pointing right back at you. I apologize for being so quick to judge within my first post, and hope that does not soil your judgement of me.
That was me being quick to anger over one of my favorite songs. So in closing I would like to say that you can go on believing what you do, for fear that it is right or that it may be.<--This statement I do take from a book but have changed the wording for my own good (It's the Wizards Firts Rule, from The Sword of Truth by Terry Goodkind). But in regards to the other quote that I left at the end, that is my motto, and has been taken from only one place. That is from the wisdom and knowledge that I have gain throughout my life.
We all need not be so quick to judge, give them the benefit of the doubt and let them show their true self. Everyone in the post needs to shake hands or hug and agree to dissagree, that is what I am doing. =)
*Shakes hand, then hugs*
Heed my motto for it will get further than ever before.
Last edited by Undertolerance; 02-16-2004 at 10:51 PM..
Fair enough, but let me tell you something.... It isn't an "ignorant" statement for me to say that you have not listened to Undertow more than me. You're what, 22? Undertow came out in when? 93? I doubt you were listening to Undertow all day long when you were 11.
Maybe you picked up on Tool when you were 16 and you've been listening for 5 or 6 years...
I know I come across as "bullheaded"... but there's a reason for it. What I post on here needs to be heard. People like to scoff at my opinions because a lot of time it's input they have not considered before and it takes them out of their comfort zone by rattling their Tool schema.
As for "soiling my judgement of you." I've read all of the posts you've ever made from beginning to end. I think you have some worthy insight. I think you have a healthy perspective. I wouldn't bother replying with a lengthy post if you didn't.
Also, you said you read my final post. I suggest you read all of my posts like I've done for yours. Granted, mine are much longer, and I've submitted more posts than you... but it would be time well spent.
You said, "Truth be told you are open to interpret the song and the CD however you see fit, and to what ever end suits you."
I didn't do anything to try to make the song "suit me." I am telling you what I think he says, but not because it suits me. It's just what I clearly hear now. However, for several years I just assumed he said "saturating" because I never questioned, thought about, or apparently listened to it that closely. I think the core meaning of the song wouldn't change much using either phrase. So as far as making it "suit me"... that's not accurate.
I will always be passionate about Tool and my opinions about their songs. It will irriate people. But ultimately when they've cooled down, and reflect on what I've said, they might "find beauty in the dissonance." (whether they ever admit it or not) That's the ultimate goal for me- to help people perceive the songs in a certain light, which could possibly change their whole idea or feeling about the song. I'm tired of people not getting it. I'm tired of seeing people mosh at Tool shows. I'm tired of Tool attracting people who have no idea what Tool is ultimately about...which is music/art itself.
I roll my eyes when musicians refer to themselves as "artists." It's an over-used and inaccurate description- but not with Tool.
Finally, you said that you're not going to go around saying that you have a better understanding of what Maynard may or may not be saying.
You might not be willing to, but I am.
Anyhow, I need to end this. I do want to say that I can appreciate your last post. It showed some honesty and vulnerability.
Thank you much for hearing (reading) me out and listening to what I had to saw as I did for you. If people were much more open minded about a whole lot of things then this world would be much better. But then again that is just my theory. I still feel that I have no right to say what Maynard is thinking for a few reasons:
1. I am not him
2. I do not know him
3. I can only second guess
4. I can only put my own experiences into my view of a song.
As far as what you said towards the end of your last post:
"Finally, you said that you're not going to go around saying that you have a better understanding of what Maynard may or may not be saying.
You might not be willing to, but I am." *shakes head in dimay* I still don't know how exactly I feel about you making that comment because of the reasons I stated above. But it adds to your bullheadedness, which should suit you quite well for most of your life. But hell that is yours and yours alone, to be lived and end the way you wish. You keep on going with your bad self and I as well will do the same. I have read a good number of your posts as well, but have not wanted to finish the rest. Reason being that you do come across a little holier-than-thou. And seem to say things as if they are wirtten in stone and cannot be any other way. Although for the most part you do concede, eventually, but you seem a little to quick to say "how it is". I would encourage you to do the same as I do, think about what you want to say then say it. I follow my motto to the letter, and I hope that one day others will as well, for it has gotten much further than ever. And I have much less arguments about ultimately pointless things and meaningless debates. Just please be careful how you word things, mostly for your sake and that of others.
Keep planting your seeds, for one day they will blossom into a field of truth and awareness, and I will continue to do the same in hopes fo rthe same end.
Oh yeah, on I side note I do agree with you that in 'Prison Sex' the second time he says the line he is in fact saying "...drown you..." I have heard that for quite some time, so that further proves that one cannot go off of posted lyrics. I know from experience that writing lyrics and actually singing them is much different, they do not always fit when you finally get to the music, therefore change is inherent.
-Tumble headlong into this ocean of endless possibilities.-
--Come Within by ME--
age 20, but much wiser.
Last edited by Undertolerance; 02-17-2004 at 11:51 AM..
I always carefully consider what I am about to write or say on this page.
I am never going to write flimsy opinions. I'll never say, "Well, of course I don't know for sure... but this is my opinion." "Only Maynard knows for sure... " blah blah
I have to sign on and click the "opinion" tab every time I come to this section... or when I step out of bed in the morning.
I believe in what I say/write, so if it comes across as "holier-than-thou" then oh well. I believe I have better perspective/insight than most . I'm not being arrogant, I'm just being honest. So if you mistake conviction for arrogance... then that's your fate.
There's no need for qualifiers regarding posts to be submitted like the ones you've listed... You're on an opinion page. Everything is an opinion. No need to always say, "Well, it's my contention.."
or...
1. I am not him
2. I do not know him
3. I can only second guess
4. I can only put my own experiences into my view of a song.
Listen then speak, learn then teach, open your mind, then your mouth.
So all you have to do before you speak is to listen? Or do you have to open your mind, too?
*shakes head once more* Apparently you have missed the point but then again that is your loss. I do not wish to waste my time explaining it. You will understand it one day but who knows for how long that will be. Grow up a little bit then I might spend the time to explain it to you and help you to understand. But until that day I will just leave you be.
May your head break many things with its hardness.
Good luck in life you bullheaded, ignorant, self inflated, pompous, semi-intelligent, spec of cosmic dust.
Undertolerance, there was nothing at all on that post that should have upset you.
You have issues.
That was just rude.
Maybe you're just reflecting about the time your old musical pal tapped your former girlfriend in the can... and now you're in a bad mood tonight because of it.
quick question for threedeviations, alright lets suppose that he is saying sense your enemy. Now in god or any other dieties name would he bother to sound like a babbling fool by saying, 'you're sense your enemy' ? I mean you are a s good a listener as you say then I am more than certain that you hear him sing the first you're. OH yeah and btw I have figured out a way to sing the word humidty and make it sound like humanity, so yes the saturating can also be made to sound like something else. When you stated that saturate could not be mis-said, that is true unless you just talk funny, but saturating can so be said/sang differently.
Pearl Jam says it quite nicely, "Holier than thou, how? Surrendered executed anyhow"
It is easy to say we have opened our minds and then let forth interpretations based on that state of open mindedness. You however, say you have opened your mind, and then you accept only what you say (directed at Ms. Croft). You say you understand so much, that you are right. They are your opinions, you needn't feel obligated to state that what you say is
1.just your opinion
2.that you thought it, not him necessarily
3.blah blah blah,
but I don't think you should say that it is the absolute. Your bullheaded behavior has turned you into more than an opinion maker and into the God of this opinion page, and quite frankly, I think you're full of shit because of it.
I think a number of things you said have good standing, but I won't necessarily vouch for it, oh guru of the TOOL song's meanings.
Last edited by Luna Galapogos; 03-10-2004 at 10:01 PM..
Three Deviations- "Ya can't see the forest for the trees, man." You said this in a response. You also mentioned somewhere else that someone (I can't remember who) had plagerized a quote and then claimed it as their own. He later claimed that he had made it up based on his experiences in life. Your line in response to AllforUnity however, is plagerized. In fact, it is from Marilyn Mason's "The Beautiful People" off of the Antichrist Superstar album in fact. Well, look who is the hypocrite now. But that is ok, we all are, we all must realize we have the same flaws as everyone else.
I don't even listen to Marilyn Manson.
So I don't even know what quote you're referring to... But I didn't borrow anything from anywhere. If something came up the same, it was coincidence, and maybe Manson has more credibility now.
Also, I never said any of my posts were "absolute," toolshed. People like you perceive them that way.... it's good. They make so much sense it's hard not to process them as fact. I understand.
...and my mind is open... WHEN I'M LISTENING TO THE MUSIC. . . Not necessarily when I am reading bullshit posts by toolios on TDN like you. Mmmkay?
If I come across as the "God of this opinion page" to you. Good. My opinions are more divine than most others.... so maybe your sentiments are justified.
I read many opinions on here... and some people have some worthy insight. I don't discount everything I read that didn't originate from my perception. Just most of it.
You say, "I think a number of things you say have good standing, but I won't vouch for it, oh guru of the Tool song's meanings." Maybe you should consider your Eddie Vedder quote... "Holier than thou, how? Surrendered executed anyhow" and consider the hypocrisy/irony in your attempted point.
By the way. I've spent time with Eddie. He would know who I am. So don't try to bring Pearl Jam into the fray, because you're out of your class with him/them, too.
When I said that you seemed like the God of the TOOL opinions because you are telling everybody that you are right and they are wrong. You try and make it sound like you are so much smarter than everybody else and that you are the law. You're such an asshole about it that sometimes I almost think that you are merely here for the fun of being an asshole, and not even to do anything purposeful. And I must say, there are numerous opinions of yours which I find worthless. This is the opinion page, not the ThreeDeviation's opinions page. You should "get off of your high horse." p.s. that is called a cliche (little accent mark over the e). I don't care if you know Eddie Veder by the way, that doesn't make you any better than anybody else, and it doesn't make you any "holier" than anybody else. The statement applied to you quite thoroughly because you have a holier than thou attitude.
Your I know everything attitude makes you sound like a prick and it discredits your opinions.
I doubt this will have any impact because you are so stuck in your alter-ego that you can't even see it. "Step through your shadow"
When I said that you seemed like the God of the TOOL opinions because you are telling everybody that you are right and they are wrong. You try and make it sound like you are so much smarter than everybody else and that you are the law. You're such an asshole about it that sometimes I almost think that you are merely here for the fun of being an asshole, and not even to do anything purposeful. And I must say, there are numerous opinions of yours which I find worthless. This is the opinion page, not the ThreeDeviation's opinions page. You should "get off of your high horse." p.s. that is called a cliche (little accent mark over the e). I don't care if you know Eddie Veder by the way, that doesn't make you any better than anybody else, and it doesn't make you any "holier" than anybody else. The statement applied to you quite thoroughly because you have a holier than thou attitude.
Your I know everything attitude makes you sound like a prick and it discredits your opinions.
I doubt this will have any impact because you are so stuck in your alter-ego that you can't even see it. "Step through your shadow"
fuck - i thought that was directed at me for a while there . . .
i was preparing to say, "yeah - you have a point", but since its not about me, im just going to give you a pat on the back . . .
as well as a hug - if youre into that kind of thing . . .
I'm telling people that "I'm right and they're wrong..." If that's the case, that's my opinion. This is an opinion page isn't it? Think about that.... then accept it and finally, get over it.
I AM smarter than most when It comes to analyzing Tool's lyrics. Deal with it. Learn from it.
I'm not an asshole. I'm trying to help you.
I'd like to know which opinions you find "worthless." That's amusing.
Oh, this is the "Opinion Page" and not the "ThreeDeviations Opinion Page?"
All I've ever done is give my opinions, so how does that equate to me owning the page? That's your own credible subconsciousness telling you that my opinions dominate the whole page because of their strength.
You, and others, get so upset because I have conviction... and I rattle your previous Tool schema... and it bothers you. . . I understand why you get upset... because you realize you don't know what you thought you knew.
"All I knew and all I believed are crumbling images that no longer comfort me."
See, that's the problem with you. Just because you perceive me as a "prick" you act like that gives you the permission to automatically discredit my insight. The fact that you act like you don't like me shouldn't have anything to do with the credibility of my Tool perspective. You can't see the forest for the tree of Threedeviations. Awww
You want to talk about me "stepping through my shadow"... suggesting that I need to evolve in some way.... when the irony is that you're the one who is stuck in the mud of a bad memory. Why do you even listen to Tool?
Guess what, Mrs. step-through-your-shadow... Tool's music has been evolving for over a decade.... their (or at least Maynard's) perspective has changed greatly over the years... EVOLVING spiritually, musically, lyrically and personally.
(Let me guess, here comes the line "you don't know maynard personally")
ha, really?
Go clean your shoes.
Last edited by ThreeDeviations; 03-12-2004 at 10:40 AM..
