Good point. I always keep that in the back of my mind during recording/practicing. I feel like I'm pretty creative, but I have to say that Danny is a HUGE inspiration and obviously would drum me and most drummers anywhere into a bloody pulp.

im sure this has been mentioned before but does anyone consider 10,000 days one of the hardest songs to play? id imagine it has to be top 5... there are SO many ghost notes and tom/snare hits that are extremely subtle and memorization seems pretty difficult as well. maybe not that much in terms of independence but what do you guys think? listen to it (the drums) really carefully and tell me what you think

Putting all feelings (good/bad) about copying aside, it is rewarding when you can mimic one of the greats and its a fucking rush when you play along with the tunes.

I noticed this thread wayyy too late and overloaded at the end. My apologies. My favorite thread so far though. I would love to put a video on here like you guys have mentioned. I live in an apartment though and in order to continue to rock, I had to buy one of those Roland electronic kits. It's awesome for recording, but I would ALWAYS prefer a real kit.

yea everyone that can should post some videos of them playing. i can watch my friend play tool for hours, id love to see someone else too. the eulogy video was sick, we need more of that shit!

I don't think we should be comparing ourselves to Danny. Honestly, I consider myself an excellent drummer. I play a lot of music that Danny doesn't play. Comparing yourself is fun and makes way for improvement, but in the end, it's pretty self-deprecating to just look up to some drumming God that you'll never aspire to.

Danny is an amazing drummer, but I love the stuff I play just as much as the stuff he plays. So where does that put me?

Much much lower (and less humble/modest) than Danny...

I'm not as good as Danny. But why should I dwell on that?

You also have to remember that Danny is pushing 50. People who post here are like 20. We have 30 years of practice left in us. Danny isn't unapproachable. Nothing is unapproachable. I already love the music that I make, and why is it bad to admit that? I just think we're getting a little too caught up in putting ourselves lower on some drumming scale, when everything is relative and subjective.

Thomas Haake can't play jazz like Joey Baron, but Baron can't match the polyrhythms and the foot speed of Haake. So play what you want. Danny's an amazing drummer, one of the greats of all-time. But keep your head up, is what I'm trying to say.

chill out man. no one in hear is saying they are better than danny. we just love playing his music. there is nothing wrong with discussing what songs you love to play so stop with the harsh words.. but i know danny is a creative drumming machine.. he's not human

I don't mind comparing myself to Danny. I also don't think that it is self-deprecating to look up to him. I also feel like, with insane practice, I might be at his level someday. I'll take my inspirations from Carey, Beauford, Peart, etc... and create my own mix, like I currently do. I look up to him because Tool's music hits me in a way that other bands cannot. Any drummer who says that they create without inspiration is lying. It's impossible. But, I guess, Champion, that we are in the same boat because I look at my creations with similar affection as I do Danny's.

Danny is a cyborg. So is Les Claypool. Remember when they did that project together with Adrian Belew? Makes me wonder if Adrian is also a cyborg. ;)

but seriously, Danny is just flat out incredible.

danny carey a human? thats crazy talk..

he used to be human, then he tripped on acid, met an alien being, and was returned to us some sort of supernatural drumming machine.

If anyone in here hasn't seen him live (although I bet you all have), pay the money. It is worth it. Last time in Boston I was in the balcony hanging right over him. Small arena. Kicked so much ass. Had to pay 250 dollars a ticket, but I can honestly say that I didn't regret it.

Danny Carey is a demon. That's the only way to explain most of Rosetta Stoned.

Where are the vids Champion?

its his opinion you insepid, obsessive dork.

regardless of the legions who will blindly speak praise for a tune like Rosetta, most Tool fans I know are not blown away with it.

Chill, man. It's tough to find the time. Busy week, need to find a good time to do this. Soon.

Not blind praise...

take your time.. no need to rush :D

I have to agree with what some others have said: the genius of tool is in their collaboration, not necessarily their individual musical skill. I think Danny is a great rock drummer, but I'm not so convinced he's a great percussionist.

What I mean is, I think there are a many many percussionists that are just as talented/skilled as Danny is. I think compared to other rock drummers, Danny is one of the best.

My friend was a percussion major at the University of Hartford. Ever heard of it? Of course not.... Anyways, he had a professor that would let students shout out any 4 numbers (up to 16).. For example 3, 7, 9 and 14. He would then play those beats on each limb. An arm playing 3, the other playing 7 a foot playing 9 and the other foot playing 14. Or whatever numbers he was given..... Nastiness and this is a guy at a school you've never heard of.

I'm impressed with Danny's drumming when I compare it to other Rock music... but not really when I compare it to other music in general. Again, the genius of Tool, IMO is in their collaboration - what they come together to create.

Yeah eleventh, that's what I was trying to say. It SEEMS like alot of people are saying 'Danny Carey is the best drummer ever, he must be, he's famous, I can't think of another famous person who is better.'
And then anyone who says 'yeah Danny Carey is brilliant, I really enjoy working out his parts' is obviously lying because they aren't famous!
And then we get some twisted arguement about, well, actually, maybe you CAN play it, but Danny wrote it so he's still better than you all!
It's very misguided. You're spot on that it's all for members that make Tool who they are, but that being in Tool doesn't therefore make them the best instrumentalists ever.

I've just come up with the idea of laying down a 4/4 hi hat beat, then playing a 5/16 rhythm underneath, and then triplets on the snare, and then taking away the 4/4, so it's 5/16 over triplets. It makes a cycle of 15/16. I did it on midi, then I learnt to play it. Now, I had the idea, so that makes me as creative as Danny Carey, right? I can play it, so that makes me as good as Danny Carey, right? But I'm not famous, so I'm not as good as Danny Carey, right?

*Disclaimer, the above paragraph was just an example. I don't believe I'm as naturally gifted a musician as Danny Carey. I did have that idea, and I can play it.*

Believe it or not, I agree with you. Danny is amazing and has carved out his own place in history, but simply because he is being heard on CD's and in live performances. Maybe you are as good as him, I don't really know. What I do know is that I've seen many garage band drummers who are very good (although nowhere as good as Mr. Carey). The point is, dedicated skinsmen can work and work to play as well as Danny, but they can't say they invented or developed a style like Danny. You and others are simply copying quite deftly a style born by someone else. While quite impressive...not remarkable. But keep playing. Keep striving.

[QUOTE=eleventh]My friend was a percussion major at the University of Hartford. Ever heard of it? Of course not....QUOTE]

i have. my dad went to school for percussion there.

Well, Danny didn't CREATE a style, either. Nothing is 100% original. But you can put yourself into your playing, and fuse different essences together to form something mildly original. Danny just worships King Crimson, Yes, and Billy Cobham.

The last sentence is really an ignorant assumption.

Just because someone chooses to learn someone elses technique, doesn't mean that's they are doing and all they can do. The process of learning by example is just what you're dismissing as unremarkable here. The first step to creating better music is in surpassing yourself. Being better at your instrument does not automatically make you a better song writer, but it gives you the faculties to realise something you couldn't have before.

You're right, though. Without Danny doing what he has done, I would never have thought to do it. But now I have been given the idea, I play with the idea myself. But I put my personal inflection on it. But, by what you're saying, I'm not really that good because I only got my ideas from the music I listen to. Well, by that logic, Danny Carey isn't really that good - his playing style is very similar to Bill Brufords. In that Drummer mag, he says he likes Bill Brufords minimal use of cymbals and his use of toms. Where does that fit into your little theory of 'you're just copying someone elses style... not remarkable.'?

Influence effects everyone. Everyone is influenced by something. The consequences of that can be different though. Someone can influence you to copy a style directly (see latest Muse album), but influence can also lead you to experiment with ideas. Listening to Tool has not told me 'this is how you should sound', it has taught me that you can experiment, and come up with your own formula.

It's unfair (and untrue) of you to assume that Champion is a simply copying Danny because he chooses to learn his parts. Learning his parts gives an insight into Dannys ability, it's education. Champion might try and work these into his playing, but without hearing his music, you can't say he's merely copying the style. It's quite likely he has his own style, and you might even be able to say 'that bit is abit like Carey... ooh, that bit was quite haake like' but it's actually quite hard to copy something outright, everything will have a personal inflection on it.... and you can say the same about Danny Carey alot of the time 'ooh, that bit sounds alot like Bruford.'

Infact, Danny Carey is the only one in the band you COULD say that for. Who does Maynard remind you of? Almost no-one. Adam Jones? I can't think of a guitarist he sounds like. Justin? Nobody. But Danny Carey, he's quite clearly influenced by Bill Bruford. According to you, 2and46, he's not that remarkable any more.

One of the most convoluted posts I've ever read. Of course drummers are influenced by others. Danny would not have picked up the instrument if he wasn't influenced by someone. To suggest that this renders him obsolete is ridiculous. By that argument, NO ONE could ever be considered original. Just because he's influenced by Bruford doesn't mean Danny just copies him. That's stupid. Who did Bruford grow up listening to? Does that make Bruford obsolete as well?

I'm getting tired of drummers on this board constantly magnifying themselves as God's of the instrument. If Jimmeny and Champion are good drummers then great. I don't really care. Danny is VERY original, no matter what you think. Jazz influence is all over his drumming style...which is not something commonly found in rock drummers. Your post is clearly not very remarkable, or enlightening whatsoever.

[QUOTE=inSin]Heh ok fine - but you see my point...

You're an idiot. Clearly, I didn't mean what I was saying, I was infact extrapolating your own point, because, you did indeed say something along the lines of 'you're not as good as danny, you're just copying him.'

And none of us are claiming Danny Carey isn't original. People are getting jumped on just for admitting they can play what Danny plays.

For the record, I don't even play drums.

This is getting quite boring. Anytime someone says something you don't agree with, you immediately tag that person as "ignorant", and "idiot" or whatever. I sense alot of projection with you.

You say you don't play drums, but on a previous post you clearly stated that you did. Which is it? You allude to making a point, then turn around and deny saying it. You didn't mean what you were saying? How can I deduce that from what what you wrote? That makes me an idiot? You're one of these oppositional-defiant types that accepts the opposing argument just to be difficult, but really doesn't believe in anything.

The main thrust of my point is that all drummers are influenced by others, but can put an origianl stamp on what they do. How is that "ignorant"? When I applaud Danny, I get told that he's nothing special, and they can do what he does. I doubt I'm the only one who feels this way.

No, the main thrust of your point is:
"The point is, dedicated skinsmen can work and work to play as well as Danny, but they can't say they invented or developed a style like Danny. You and others are simply copying quite deftly a style born by someone else."

I am a guitarist, which I've said all along. I can play drums, but I don't consider myself a drummer, in response to 'If Jimmeny and Champion are good drummers...'. Champion is no doubt better than me because I am not a drummer. It doesn't stop me knowing how ability and creativity works though.

I'm calling you an ignorant idiot not because I disagree with you, but because of ludicrous statements such as:

"I'm impressed by all the drummers who can easily duplicate Danny. If you can so flawlessly do what Danny can do, why haven't I heard of you?"

Drummers on this board pretend to have the same chops as Danny, and I find that hard to believe. Furthermore, what style have they invented? How was that style influenced? Did danny influence their own playing and interpretation of the instrument? Drummers make grande statements of their prowess, but don't illuminate us with how they arrived at that point. I'm sure Champion is a fine drummer. The "why haven't I heard of you" comment was not fair, nor does it have anything to do with his own competance on the instrument. I thought I made this clear in an earlier post. Picking out quotes, then calling me ignorant is ridiculous.

We're just arguing about semantics now so lets not. I think overall we're probably arguing about the same thing, but that you are taking anyone who says they can do what danny does as them saying danny isn't any good. I think they are talking more about technical ability, they can physically do what danny does. I don't think they are making a comment on his importance as a musician and his importance in Tool.

Fair enough. By the way, what TOOL song do you think is Danny's most impressive? That question goes to Champion as well when he gets on here.

Hah, well, that's the question that polarized our arguement in the first place. Most impressive technically, or most impressive creatively, or somehow both?

Well, the middle section Lateralus is one of my favourtie pieces of drumming, where he does the 5/8 drum riff over the 6/8 drums. I'm not sure how technically brilliant it is, it's not that challenging if you can play in 5.

Danny claims the 7/8 riff at the start of Ticks and Leeches is the piece of drumming he's most proud of. Probably because it's a really natural 7/8. I like that alot too. Probably slightly harder than that section of Lateralus.

The section in Rosetta Stoned we've been talking about, the bit where the left foot is in 4, the right foot in 5 and the left hand on 6, is one great, I love that section, it's the most technically impressive I think, and Justin's bassline makes it even better.

However, the section that most impresses me is the end of the Grudge, it's out and out improvisation, it's not bound by the technicality of 'ooh its 3 over 4 over 5.' The groove is in 5, and he's blasting the kit through sheer power, it fits with the music brilliantly, it's fluid, his technical ability allows him to do it without dictating it's creation.

I can't name an entire Tool song because this is what everyone agrees on about Danny - he's an excellent musician, and he knows his place in Tool. He never takes over an entire song. There are only sections of genius when sections of genius are required.

I'm a novist when it comes to drumming, but I'm glad you included Lateralus. I just love the middle part. At first it seems amazingly difficult, but I guess once you get the repitition down it becomes more natural.

I'm trying to think of some different tracks people don't always mention. I love 46 and 2 as well as Hooker. These are just real good straight forward jams. Triad is amazing, seems like you have 4 different things going on at the same time.

Rosetta seems to take the cake at the current time. I'm really into it right now. Anyway, thanks for the input.

what the hell is going on here? i hate it when random arguments break out for no reason. cant we all just get along? ..well it seems most of you guys think rosetta stoned is the hardest drum song to play. i would have to agree.. i dont think i can ever play that song. damn you danny lol

Might I request that Champion create a new thread to post his videos? This one's plenty long enough without adding an only tangentially related topic to it.

Look, nobody is saying that Danny isn't any good. Nobody is saying that they are as good as Danny, or that Danny isn't "the shit" because people can play parts of his. We only bother mentioning it in the first place because it's feendishly difficult, so when/if we manage to get it right that's a really great achievement. If it wasn't crazy difficult to play, nobody would care and we wouldn't be trying to emulate it. I don't think that anybody in here is thinking that because they can play Danny's beats they're as good as Danny; they're just proud that they possess the technical ability necessary to copy what Danny plays on the songs, which for me personally is enough of an achievement to want to shoot for that as a "in twenty years, maybe I'll be able to whip out rhythms like this like it's nothin'." Nobody in here is comparing themselves to Danny, so why don't you just chill the fuck out?

I'd like to go through a quick run-down of both what songs I find challenging and what specifically I find challenging about them. First off, whoever it was who said that Jerk-Off was the hardest song Danny played, you sir are either lying, deaf, or insane. It and Hush are about as straight-forward as Danny gets. As for Undertow, Sober is probably the easiest riff to play of his entire career, but it's still great to practice on because it can help a beginner gain left-foot independence, which I so desperately need. There's nothing particularly difficult about the main riff to the first part of Prison Sex, but the introduction of the concept of the hihat playing its own rhythm divorced from the rest of the kit--rather than being the "metronome" part of hte song--is noteable. As for the rest of that song, the riff in the second part of the song takes a bit of practice but is pretty easily doable, and the fills later on are similarly devilish to get down but shouldn't give you too much trouble. Prison Sex, in general, is a good song to warm up to, as a lot of the really difficult parts kind of grow out of the concepts introduced on that song. Other than that, though, the only song that sticks out drumming-wise from Undertow is... undertow. The opening fills are both an incredible amount of fun; the first riff is great because it's always changing (s b b b s, bb s b b b s, s b b s s, b b s, s, hthtmt lt). the second riff of the song is another great one for limb-independence--the bass and snare is easy to play, the chihat is easy to play, the snare, bass and hihat are relatively easy to play, but putting the right open-to-closed variation on the hihat completely throws the rest off. I spent an hour locked in teh college's drum room trying to get it right and I failed miserably.

As for Aenima, I don't really think Aenima or Hooker is that difficult. Aenima maybe jsut for stamina, but that's about all--the random cnot-random cymbal stuff is neat, but there's much mroe to look at on this album. Stinkfist is easy, I don't think i have to mention it. H is weird, but once you figure out what each tom is for hte opening you're good. Ulugy is ludicrously easy except for the solo part (which still isn't very hard) and the amounts of different rhythms durring the beginning (which is nigh-impossible.) 46&2 is, again, nothing particularly special in my opinion; Tool_Rules is entirely right when he says that the hihat work is more interesting than the solo. I learned that solo in just a couple days, it's really not that hard at all. The hardest songs to drum on this album are-- in order--Third Eye, Pushit, and Jimmy. I don't think I have to explain Third Eye to anyone, but I'll touch on Pushit and Jimmy briefly; what makes them idifficult are that they have strange time signatures (Jimmy does anyway) and deal with interesting hihat work and the drum hits not coming when you would expect them to.

Which brings us to Lateralus. I'll say right off the bat that the Grudge is most deffinetly one of the most difficult songs to play--not just because of the improvisation at the end, which is just nuts, but also because of the rhythm he plays and the time signature. The Patient is an interesting, tricky, slippery fish; when listening to it it sounds easy, but every time I try to play it I always end up getting it awefully, hilariously wrong. Schism is mostly pretty straight forward, although the double bass is noice. What's more difficult than that, though, IMO is the bit just before it. As for Parabola, I don't understand why people keep saying it's so difficult. The first riff is probably the most conventional riff of any Tool song, the next one isn't that difficult, and so on, there just isn't much there from what I can tell. Ticks and Leaches... Okay, seriously, this song pisses me off. Not because of hte song itself, which is of course brilliant, but because just about every Tool fan in teh world has ruined it by proclaiming it to be the omfg best drumming evar~. It's not. In fact, it's not even close. It's difficult endurance-wise, and technically it's rather tricky, but honestly it's not that difficult to learn. I hate T&L now because I'm sick and tired of it showing up so close to the top in 'best of' drumming collecitons when far more deserving songs (Grudge, Third Eye) get ignored. Anyway. As for Lateralus, it's amazing and crazy and awesome that they changed up the time signature so much durring the song, but once you get over that, there isn't very much here either. I don't mean to say that it's easy, because it's not, it's very difficult--but once you get the groove locked down in your head, the riffs will fall into place rather soon. The part durring the solo is difficult, but only in the way that the Pushit solo is difficult (and I dont' mean the electronics part)--it just takes a lot of memorization. On the other hand, the "feel the rhythm" line is possibly one of hte most dastardly riffs I've ever heard. Reflection is one riff, which is funny because it still manages to be a more difficult song than Ticks and Leaches. When that one riff is so difficult that oyu can play it for 11 minutes straight and only get it right two or three times, you know you have something special.
I love Danny to death for adding in the steady hihat foot patern, incidentally, without that simple adition the song would be much, much easier. I'm really surprised that most peopel haven't mentioned Triad, as that has some truly amazing technical work all throughout.

Okay, I know that like nobody is still looking at this, but whatever, I'm almost done. Right away, 10 Thousand Days starts out with Vicarious. This song is probably the msot upfront about its drumming (aside from T&L, natch) than any other Tool song.; the drum line follows the bass lien that follows the guitar line, loudly, and the fills come fast and repeatedly. I really think they were trying to call special attention to the drumming on this song because of the snare drum, which is remarkably different sounding than any other snare drum sound Danny has used--it sounds like a punk drum, and durring the triplet snare rolls it's so loud and up-front that it threatens to clip. Anyway, Vicarious is great despite all this, because even though it's theoretically simplistic, the parts that are actually being played are some incredibly intricate pieces of work. Jambi is stupifyingly incredible because the guitar seems to be doing something completely different from the entire rest of the band, but other than that this track doens't do anything special for me. I mean it does, but we're on 10KDays now, where every single track is amazing in its own way. Even Wings for Marie is difficult in its own way, as those three-stick ride patterns may sound easy but they're actually not so, at all. The majority of the 10KDays song is boring and not very noteable, but it's balanced off by a drum solo that is one of the most brilliantly articulated thigns i've ever heard anywhere. The Pot is noteable because though it--for hte most part--survives on one riff, that one riff is several measures long and goes through at least three different time signatures, so it is awesome. Roestta Stoned, well, everyone's talked about 7:02 so I won't, but the rest of the song shoudln't be ignored either; much of it is quickly dismissable on the surface as being simple; however its genius is understandable when you listen to how it relates to the rest of the song. For instance, the reverse role at about 4:00 sounds like just a normal roll in reverse. However, if oyu listen to it in relation to the beat of the guitar, you realize that he's actually alternating between playing straight 4/4 notes and triplits, slowing them down in stages but keeping each stage one that could be played on its own and still fit in with the rest of the song. Intention is great fun to listen to, but hta'ts about all; I'm not going ot try and guess what that electric solo is, so I can't say if it's actually technically difficult or not. Soudns really neat though. The tabla solo on Right In Two, to be honest, does not impress me. It sounds great, but it seems for the most part not too difficult. But hey, it's tabla, so that means it's hard to play because it's different! Bah. Bah, I say.

I read all of it, and so here are my remarks:

1. Yes I want vids too. I would love to see someone who claims Ticks & Leeches is so overrated actually play it, I wonder if it will sound any good. I can play those online tabs as well, but it's not because I can hit the toms in the right order it sounds anything like theoriginal.

2. I agree on the Sober riff. But it's the intro what makes the song. That's like my opening fill everytime I practice.

3. On Aenima: I don't get this. It has been said multiple times in this thread that the double bass isn't that hard. Yet every drumboard is spammed with hundreds of threads about double bass. I don't have one, so I can not judge, but the idea of playing swiss triplets all the time with your feet seems like really hard for the left foot.