I think the key phrase in regards to this album's lyrical content is "straight forward." There's really no beating around the bush with the lyrics this time. From what Maynard has said, this was pretty much their goal.

Jesus, when did I say that?
I said I enjoyed everything there is to enjoy about it right away. And a lot of other people probably have as well.

This album is not the same as when I first heard 46 and 2 and had no fucking clue at all what he's talking about, but was intigued.
Same for Jimmy, H, pushit, stinkfist, lateralus, etc
Those were a lot more thought-provoking than most of these songs for me, except for maybe Jambi. And that's what seperated Tool from the rest of the run of the mill shit.

Are you going to argue that with me? That the message to these songs arent as hard to understand?

That's my only point.

You don't think he learned much between judith and 10 000 days? First he says "fuck your god, your christ" and now he is pretty much apologizing for ripping his sick mothers beliefs apart...faith that kept her going through her illness.

He is not saying he has converted or anything, but the first time he was able to see something good coming out of blind faith. Seems to me he finally accepted the fact that you should not be taking away someone's blind faith, if you can't offer anything better in return, and what he is selling might be better for us, it certainly could have made his mothers last years a chaotic mental experience if she would have "opened her eyes" and dropped the very foundation of her life.

Maynard was on a high horse with "Judith", but he is a mature man in touch with his feelings, so he can also learn and apologize. We all say things out of frustration and anger, and some of us then analyze why we said that.

"Set as I am in my ways and my ARROGANCE..."

yeah, i came into that part very prepared.

youd think others (at least ones from here, woulda donethe same?

FYI

46 and 2,...

means mutation and evolution.

and let me get this straight...

you dont like it because you understand it?

wow.

i have understood pretty much everything theve ever done except for jimmy (explained in 10kdays) and die eir von satan, which a german speaking friend translated within days of aenimas release.

maybe im weird.

yes this album IS more straight forward, but that was there "intension" HAHA!!!

i made a pun... pun-ny type little getchee in there!

i think this album is filled with a lot of change
a lot of new change...like getting up one morning
and realising some things about yourself
you feel fear..paranoia...doubt...love...joy
it all silently drowns you...that is the feeling
i get from this....aenima and lateralus didn't do that
for me...one made me question the other made me
hope...this just leaves me silently wondering..if
humanity is ever going to recover...

People need to stop assuming that everyone was expecting Lateralus 2.
Those aren't the only two options. Lateralus 2 or what 10,000 turned out to be.
For me, it would have been more fitting to say "STOP EXPECTING AENIMA 2"
When in actuality thats not what I want, I wanted something different and good like you say. 10,000 Days is definitely different, but its the "good" part that is missing for me.

If Tool released a heavily Ramones influenced album, would you have to find that good? Just fucking 11 ramones style songs similar to their cover of "Commando"?
Or would you allow someone to say "Ya know, I liked their songs better when they were not so repetitive with more of what I liked from 10,000 Days, like Wings for Marie style"
or would you say "FUCK YOU BUDDY, THEY SAID THEY WERE GOING TO MAKE A RAMONES STYLE ALBUM, WTF DO YOU WANT 10,000 DAYS 2 FOR? THIS IS EXCITING AND NEAT"?
I'm not one of the people that will like anything Tool makes just because it says "Tool" on the cover.

Yes. people bitch. thats what this forum is for.

if they did that i would laugh, then TOOL woulda made a bad TOOL album, i would laugh, but also be a little sad that i didnt have a new TOOL album.

but the Ramones were cool for what they were, every song consisted of no more than 3 chords.

so hmm.

The album is starting to grow on me more and more every time I listen to it.

What I miss most though is their more progressive buildup type of songs. Ones like third eye, reflection, and pushit were always the ones I found most enjoyable to listen to. Seems like they chose not to do those types of songs with as much intensity as they have in the past. 10,000 days felt like it might have done it, but at the height of the buildup, they take a donwturn rather than more intense.

Well, in judith he says

"it's not like you killed someone, its not like you drove a spiteful spear into his side"

similar to this part:

Please forgive this bold suggestion:
Should you see your Maker's face tonight,
Look Him in the eye, look Him in the eye, and tell Him:
I never lived a lie, never took a life, but surely saved one.
Hallelujah, its time for you to bring me home.

this entire verse is full of sarcasm, to me.


this is not exactly a happy part either:

You're the only one who can hold your head up high,
Shake your fists at the gates saying:
"I have come home now!
Fetch me the spirit, the son, and the father
Tell them their pillar of faith has ascended.
It's time now! My time now!
Give me my, give me my wings."

She's fucking demanding them, not asking. Just because he is not screaming "fuck your god" doesn't mean he's "matured" and is apologizing for anything.

It should also be noted that maynard does not believe she will be encountering the spirit, ghost, and the father. And that's what she's been waiting for, only to be disappointed.

If you feel sarcasm in the end, then we definitely feel this song completely differently.

My favorite part of this whole leak deal is connecting the line "broken down and paralyzed" with actual paralysis... its completely recontexualized judith for me.


Same with jimmy.

11.


10,000 days.


Wow.


But then ending to wings pt. 2 ruins everything

Yeah thats what I've noticed too. I don't like that.
That part in Right in Two where that happens pisses me off.
That's another thing I miss, which has always thought was something Tool would never go away from. That buildup/climax part during Pushit is one of the best few minutes of a song ever.

The flip side is they realized that their higher consciousness and mysticism mumbo jumbo is just so much intellectual masturbation that has little real world value.

Please forgive this bold suggestion:
Should you see your Maker's face tonight,
Look Him in the eye, look Him in the eye, and tell Him:
I never lived a lie, never took a life, but surely saved one.
Hallelujah, its time for you to bring me home.

Hmm. Well I suppose I could be interpreting it wrong. It is a tool song.

But, with no sarcasm or anger of any sort, what is the purpose of him suggesting that she say that? And why would he say "bold suggestion"?
It doesn't make sense any other way. He's saying pretty much the same thing as in Judith. Never took a life, never tasted the fruit, never thought to question why, and you fucked me hardcore anyway. Thanks.

I dare say that's the least sarcastic Maynard's been in his entire life. That song is all about her purity and spirit. You don't call someone your eyes and evidence if you're assaulting their faith.

I think you're getting too hung up on "organized" religion. The whole song is talking about how she was the truly spiritual person, how she's an example of what religion is all about.

And I think it's pretty obvious that Maynard himself has an unconditional faith in LOVE, which he identifies his mother as having as well. There's a huge difference between that kind of uncoditional faith and the misguided faith described in Opiate, Flood, Judith, etc.

Well, sarcastic in the sense that he doesn't believe she will be finding a gate to shake her fist at, or a maker to look in the eyes of. Also anger in the term "pillar of faith". (See Judith).
He's singing about a hypothetical afterlife.

I dont understand the eagerness to totally seperate this song from Judith.
The anger is still there, I am sure of this.

Her faith is misguided because she blindly followed it for so many years, including the 10,000 days after she became paralyzed. And he really can't understand it.
And is disgusted by it. (An inspiration for the ways that he would never choose to be).

I feel similarly about my mom, who has MS. Totally ignores the possibility of using "medical" marijuana because of the usual stigmas, some of them stemming from a strict conservative christian upbringing. Instead chooses to suffer.

So yes, organized religion bad. Anything that encourages love is good.
thats my opinion for now

I don't think he's saying that at all. He's honoring his mother, how pure in faith she remained despite her situation. He's not saying he agrees with her faith. He's saying if anyone has the right to demand a place in heaven, it's her, after the 10,000 days of paralyzing hell she endured.

He's respecting her resilience and unwavering faith, the humility and purity retained by someone who had every right to be pissed at God.

Dude, there is no anger or sarcasm in any of the lyrics in Wings of Marie. "Pillar of faith" is saying she really was a pillar of faith, that of anyone, she had the right to demand attention at the gates to heaven. He's honoring her and her unwavering belief when she had every right to give up and reject her faith. Even if he disagreed with her, he was still awed and humbled by her. Hence his "bold suggestion" and "arrogance"...he's saying his cynicism doesn't hold a candle to her infallible conviction. He's honoring how she never got angry or bitter over her situation, while he obviously did. He's saying she was the better person because of it. It's pretty deep stuff.

Sorry man, I dunno what to say to someone who thinks there's no anger in that verse. Try listening and pretending there is. Right after listening to Judith maybe. It's really not humanly possible to totally put aside your feelings in that situation, I'm sure. I'm not saying she wasn't a pillar of faith. She's been in the shit, the trials and the tribulations, and deserves a place in heaven if there was such a place.


I'm saying that he doesn't think that is necessarily anything to be proud of.
She was a good person . And most of the people in her congregation probably weren't.
That being said, he's still the same guy that sang Judith. There's still the same shit going through is head, and it shows in the lyrics.

Also, I'm hearing it as:
"set as I am in my wings and my arrogance, burning all through tossed upon the believers"

From whose perspective are those lyrics from?
I'm guessing you're hearing them from Maynard's?

agreed.

Right, because you all are smarter and better Tool fans than those of us who say it's not there!

Again, some would say there's complexity if Tool did a ramones cover album.

TOOL = COMPLEX!


Complex is a pretty relative term.
It's more complex than Avenged Sevenfold's album
And simpler than Lateralus/Aenima

This album is not Lateralus, Nor is it Anema, Dont compare them. They all have there distinctive characteristics thats what makes them, them. And Avenged Sevenfold is shit anything is more complex then them.

I agree. The Meshuggah influence is mostly in jambi, and not very much there either.

I totally agree with what you are saying but I think I have a more cynical outlook on the whole thing..what you call giving another chance I see as a defense mechanism to mask their own disappointment. Does that make them "not a true fan"? Hell no, that's an abstract that only a moron would imply even exists, and everyone's entitled to an opinion..but I do think that anyone that says the leak is anything but the real deal is lying to themselves. Instead of admitting this disappointment, they project it on to what would have to be fake, or b-sides, or whatever theory is en vogue now. The fact is we are a week away from release, even less in some countries, and there is no real evidence that the leaked album is anything but 100 percent legit, and mounting evidence to prove the opposite.

The only cognitive dissonance going around here is people not being able to accept that Tool made this crappy of an album since they don't normally.

Your mind doesn't want to believe it, so you're making yourself believe that it is the greatest Tool album ever.

That is the denial.


The hoax/b-side theorists are giving them the benefit of the doubt.

No, you're wrong. It's making not comment about universal "badness." It's making a comment about one's doubt. You're setting up a silly strawman argument. It's saying "I have doubts, but I'm willing to consider alternatives." That's different from saying "that's bad."

Shut the fuck up. Are you 16? The "that's just your opinion" response could hardly be any shallower. OF COURSE IT'S HIS OPINION.

You sound like a religious zealot. Demanding, as you do, that a "fan" should accept whatever the band makes is putting the cart before the horse; it's the tail wagging the dog. It's about the music, not some cult of personality that you've been sucked into.

Which means you should shut the hell up and go play in your sandbox until you have. He's offering a critique based on music, music you haven't heard.

You're hiding behind incomplete, immature thoughts you're trying to mask with questions. And here's how we will expose your level of maturity regarding the critique of music. You're going to tell us the criteria -- all of them -- by which YOU decide whether music -- any music -- is "good."

Of course, the world you'd like to see is even more ridiculous. You would prevent anyone from ever making any judgments about any music because all such critiques are just "their opinions." You would relegate us to a world in which we can make no judgments of any sort about music. And, frankly, that's a pretty piss poor alternative.

Ouch. Great dissection Windowlicker. Hang around a while and work your written magic my friend.

No. Just no.

Your argument makes absolutely no sense. To accuse those of us who are satisfied with the album of being in "denial" completely disregards the definition of the concept. There's no need for denial when I am quite happy with everything that's been given to me here.

I like the album. Period. Many of us like the album--period. I don't waste my time listening to music I don't like, even Tool. I don't listen to Opiate or Undertow ever because frankly, I don't like either of them very much.

So don't you DARE tell me what I like or don't like, or that I like it only because I don't want to admit Tool made a "bad album". Yours may be one of the most arrogant claims I've ever heard.

Crawl back into your hole. Your nonsensical rant is boring those of us with brains that function properly.

has anyone noticed how some people keep referring to "the album we've been listening to for a few weeks"? It's been less than a week! I seriously think this album is playing mind games on us. Personally, I was disappointed by the album, but I can't stop listening to it. It's really grown on me, and I love it now, though I'm still convinced there's more. There has to be, for that much time they spent writing and recording. But I really do think there are subliminal things going on with the album, which is why we are stuck in a time warp, and why the 76 minute album feels like it's over much sooner than it really is.

Well, this whole issue can be cut down into just that. The people who don't like it claim it's a decoy, and the people who do like it don't. I'm sure there are people who don't like it but think it's the true album, but my response is not shallow. I know he eve says this is just his opinion, but then he says that it is a valid one. This implies that some people don't have valid opinions and somehow his is definitely worth something. But to say that Tool aren't an amazing group IS all a matter of opinion. I don't fucking care if you think that's a shallow arguement. Tool has said they don't take themselves seriously, and I guess this is showing in this album, huh? It's simple, if you don't like the music, fine, but posting here day and night about it is pointless.

I'm not demanding anything, but to say that calling a band's work bad is what makes a fan isn't true. Expecting that a band cater to your wants is not being a real fan. Fans appreciate music that a band makes. If it were up to the fans what the band did, you end up with bands like KoRn. You're right, it IS about the music and this album is what Tool chose to make. "Fans' don't have any authority to decide what the band should or shouldn't do.

No, he's offering reasons why he thinks the album isn't the "real" album. He's offering reasons to hide behind in hopes that his expectations are met and some album comes out that sounds just how he wants it to. It doesn't matter if I've heard the music because I don't expect anything from it. It's not MY album. It is what it is. You can't change that and people need to accept that. My hearing it or not doesn't change the fact that music is all subjective. Go ahead and tell me how this is all opinions and that is a weak arguement, but it's true for this whole issue.

I'm hiding behind immature thoughts yet it's you who are calling me 16? That's pretty immature right there. Insulting someone you don't know anything about because you disagree with them. Anyway, I never said the album is good. I can't tell anyone what is "good" and I never try to. The only criteria for a good album is that you like it. Now go ahead and post some more telling me how my opinion is wrong some more while I enjoy music I like and people keep bitching about music they don't. Doesn't hurt me any.

Window Licker is like the new Chris B.

When did I say you can't judge music? You can't change it though and you need to accept it. That doesn't mean be like sheep and love it. It just means you have to let go and realize that you are one person and don't have control over everything. Sure, people don't like the album, but hoping for it to be a decoy is pointless. It's just an album. We're not on a waiting list for an organ here.

The only thing you're forgetting is some people on this board seemingly live for nothing other than Tool (or perhaps music in general). Thus they're in the precarious position of feeling like their whole life is crashing down when they don't like the album. For them, it IS like an organ.

Too bad. It's pretty pathetic to see so many people that apparently don't have anything else positive going on in their lives.

That's right.


I could be wrong about the age. That's why I asked the question. Seriously, I haven't heard anyone resort to the "that's just your opinion" response since high school.

I don't need to know anything about you. I only need to know what you wrote. You wrote a silly line that boiled down to "that's just your opinion."

So then how can you contest the original poster's claim about quality? Your single criteria renders you entirely unable to ever discuss the quality of a musical work with another person. All you can ever claim is that the person is being disingenuous when they claim to like it. Because, as you say, if they like it, the game is over. There's nothing left to talk about. There are no other criteria.

I don't know whether that's good, but you have to remember that I am a window licker.

I already said it. He make the claim that his opinion is valid, as if it's better than some people's and should be taken more into consideration. Anyway, to say that there is nothing left to talk about is just assinine. You can talk about why you like it, or why you dislike it. You can talk about how the drums and guitar create an eerie effect and give you crazy dreams. There is plenty to talk about, whether you like it or not. Bitching constanly isn't productive though and it seems people come here simply to do that.

At least you see what my point is, or seem to anyway.

you can lick my window anytime big boy.

For once, I completely fucking agree with you. :)