DISCUSS.

has this been discussed before? i dont care.

lets face it dudes: tool's lyrical trayectory (and a bit of APC's) has been centered on jimmy's mom; from his heavy criticism of religion to his readily atonement towards his mother in 10,000 days. Actually, Tool's evolution can be analised from this point of view alone. It has been jimmy's adherence to his mother's life and her (and his) dilemma that has brought us all this wonderful, artistical music. Is this news for you? It is for me.

Correct me if I'm wrong but an oedipus complex is a unconcious desire for a mother's love. I think the reason so much of his lyrics are centered around his mother and their relationship are not out of desire for love, but desire for change. The fact that his mother follows the christian faith and Maynard knows better puts a feeling of obligation to help her "see the light".

And as for Tool's evolution being centered on Maynard and his mother, no. All of Tool's music comes first, lyrics second. Maynard tries his best to capture the emotions of each song individually and create words to go along with it. Obviously he puts his own spin on things so it comes out relating to his own experiences, not Adam's, Danny's or Justin's. It just so happens that the theme of Tool (evolution) relates perfectly to his relationship with his mother.

I started a thread in the Jambi section about this some time ago, but it's definitely worth a revisit. In the end of the play Oedipus the King, he "jams" his eyes out with his mother's pins from her dress. After some time mulling this over, so many of the songs seem to have quite a bit in common with each each other as far as Greek tragedy goes: the tragic flaw.
In each song, the protagonist in the album (or antagonist) has a problem and seems to tie up any loose ends in the next song. This kind of goes along with a few songs at least, namely Vicarious > Jambi, Wings Pt. 1 > 10KD, The Pot > Lipan Conjuring to name a few. Again, the first song seems to realize this tragic flaw, which would lead to at least the mental demise of the character, and the second song of each duo deals with, apologizes for, or just plain gets rid of it.
Since, Maynard talks about Greek mythology and things like that in the sparse interviews he has done, it's silly not to consider something like this. GREAT flow of ideas in this forum!!!!

hmm yes. then MJK has an oedipus complex. He hates religion (bc of her), he hates her closemindedness, he denounces it, then he loves her. im sure this could all be seen as part of an oedipus complex.

As for the desire for change, yes. his shift towards spirituality, consciousness, and "spiraling out" were, for me, a drifting apart from all that christianity represents.. and this because of his mother's life... so in the end, it all IS about his mother.

will check that thread out. sounds great.

I think that the words you meant to use are "Judith joined the Christian church and Maynard chose differently".

Its really quite amazing how many people think that they "know the way". I dont buy into organised religion, but I respect others' choices to do so, as long as they do something positive with it.

Those are the words I meant to put down.

I'm not saying that Christianity is "bad" per se, but there are better foundations to build your life from. "Christianity" is too open for interpretation without clarification. When I say Christianity I picture modern times, where it is much more of an exploitation of fear, rather than an embracing of the all.

I feel Christianity is in the wrong because their Christ figure is made out to be alone. It is my belief that he was the clean mirror that we should aspire to be, just like the Buddha. All men are created equal and Jesus was a man. It's really too bad that this mindset is "taboo" and disregarded among most Christians I know.

and alot of APC's

take away the war songs (ok, so thats a fair few, and that last fuckin excuse for an album) and you've got pretty much nothing except songs about mummy... good songs tho, shame it seems to have drawn time away from tool however

I don't know what religion/belief system/whatever Maynard has found, but it makes you wonder if it wasn't finding this new spirituality that allowed him to embrace his mother's power of faith.

Before Lateralus he was very cynical about religion (specifically Christianity). Lateralus as an album I cannot really see any cynacism at all. Not about religion, of any kind, at any rate. More of an embracing of all that is pure and good and not so much a condemnation of ideas that Maynard thinks are foolishly conceived and held.

For example, drawing on my own experience, when I had parted from Christianity and was still kind of searching for Truth, I felt the need to push this idea of non-Christianity on people. Now that I believe in the eternal spirit and a system of reincarnation (in some form or another, who knows?) I don't care what faith you are. If you're using it to do something good, eventually you'll come back as someone who "gets it right", whatever that means.

Even Christianity is a tool, and it all depends on how it's used. Sadly it is so often a tool used for control. Judith used this tool purely and piously. She used the tool correctly. For good. I believe Maynard sees that now that he is out of his pure "I hate Christianity and Jesus and all that is religion" phase.

Shine on, crazy diamond.

If only about 80% of Tool fans could realize that. They haven't noticed any change! This man has completely evolved through this music and these peopl don't even realize it.

I agree.

now hes in his verbo-rhea stage.

doesnt oedipus complex have something to do with hating your father too?

In its most extreme case, I believe you kill your father and have sex with your mother. I don't know if it is specifically anything against the father other than the fact that you are in love with your mother and resent your father from getting her love.

and so much more...

this post makes me wanna cry........a HAPPY cry..........

Jesus wasn't alone (he had parents, brothers, disciples, and both the Father and the Spirit).

Jesus was a both man and God.

Read the Gospels - the person of Jesus Christ is phenomenal. He is what you are looking for in your post - that "clean mirror" of what we aspire to be (charitable, loving, accepting). Yet there's no way to be all of these things without imperfection without being God; yet he was tempted, and therefore human, to the point of sweating blood before he decided to give up his life.

And I don't think there's any better foundation to build your life from.

Except someone that doesn't want to ground their morals in faith. I'm a Buddhist and I feel that same calling to rise above my petty self but I don't need someone's fairy tale to justify changing my life.

Basically, I don't believe I am some flawed creature that is in need of salvation. I don't believe salvation exists because I don't think there is anything that we need to be delivered from, except reincarnation, and we'll work our way out of that although it may take a few eternities.

there are more religions than there are happy children

Maybe I did not voice my opinion clearly enough. What I meant to say is that from what I have gathered from Christianity, we cannot become pure. When I said Jesus was "alone" I meant he is the only son of God, we are not. Well I'm telling you right now, that's a bunch of bullshit. Jesus was the pure example that we should be striving to become everyday (because we can if we try).

maynard loves t0 be sacraligious. its funny sometimes how he is all about rippin on Jesus. go to his myspace and puscifer site. he hates jesus more than ever

he's just making amends.

no, you did, I'm just saying that I think your gathering methods (or at least what you have gathered) may be flawed. We can become pure, but we need forgiveness [because, if you think about it, if there is a God who watches over all and His will is mind is the basis of all life; if we deviate from that in ANY WAY, then we are subject to death because we have violated the law/will/intention of God and therefore should reap our punishment). Our purity, as Christians, comes from Jesus Christ, and it is through the grace offered at the cross (grace meaning receiving that which we do not deserve) that we might sin no more and be PURE.

PURITY (of mind and spirit), ultimately, is God's will and desire for us all so that we might know Him and live with Him. That's really what Christians see as the goal of life - to live in perfect union with the Creator of the world.



And, to ward of harsh criticism from others: I am merely trying to communicate something to benjiman - if you read and receive, fine, if you don't and you think I'm full of shit, fine, but know that I am not attempting to turn a forum into a vehicle for conversion. This is a discussion and I am discussing something that I think might matter to both benjiman and me. Thank you.

Yeah, so getting back to Maynard wanting to bang his mom...

hmm

I fail to see how exploring an internal struggle dealing with observations of a mother's choices neccesitates this whole oedipus nonesense. The fact that on this planet, some things are beyond a person's reach to persuade/educate can leave a pretty big scar. The closer the person is to your heart and the greater the influence they have had on your development, the more the problem will present itself and intensify.
Maybe i was just an especially pious little bastard, but up until a few years ago, i was convinced it was my job to educate my mother on 'truths' she may have ignored in life. This was wrong. As true as it is painful, we cannot actually force someone to study or observe things differently. We can try, but it does nothing but tatter whatever relationship exists.
The man just wanted to find ways of dealing with his frustration. This is not the first time: The "Bill Hicks, Another Dead Hero" picture, where Maynard wears the leg braces is probably the most noteable.
Someone said to me once that the more personal a story was the more universal it became. i forget who he was quoting, but considering Maynard has spent so much time focussed on voicing his perspective on the choices and life of his mother, and the fact that the body of work which followed has set the bar so unbelievably high i think i'll go get drunk now, i think we might be able to give the least subtle, and to me the most gripping song in this arena a bit more thought and credit than "he totally wants to fuck his mom," don't you think.
It's hard to find love when you don't understand or respect the crux of someone's decision-making process. But if they brought you here, perhaps we are obligated to do so.

Do you know why so many strippers wear vanilla body lotion?

I dunno about the body lotion, but I've noticed no matter what club you go to, strippers always smell the same. A dancer once told me it's because they all use each others' perfume all throughout the night. The resulting combination of those scents is the vanilla smell.

what i heard, HEARD, is that breast milk contains a vanilla aftertaste in humans. The smell or taste of it therefore reconnects the mind to that first feeling of comfort, thus taking more money out of your pocket and into their dealers' gangster roll.
not to disparage the profession.

I love my mom.

Maybe he's referring to a sort of mother-figure. Like the old lady down the block who would always give you homemade cookies or fruit instead of candy and chocolate on Halloween.
Every neighborhood has one.
They're the types that don't just make you wait at the front door--they actually invite you into their home while they fetch you a fresh batch hot out of the oven.
Sometimes artists use archetypal symbology, and in this case it seems obvious that if the woman being referred to was in fact Maynard's biological mother he would refer to her as "Mom", "Mama". or "Mammy' if he was narrating the song from the point of view of an African-american pre1930 or so.
I don't know, something about his whole mother-thing leaves a bad taste in mymouth.

I agree with the post about maynard ripping on jesus now more than ever...its all over the place in his sites...666's , mocking stigmata so on and so forth...idk about the whole oedipus thing seems far fetched....i think he was maybe resentful at her maybe when she bacame paralyzed is when stepdaddy started his abuse maybe at some point he blamed her...idk just rambling but it is possible...anyway thanks Tool for this great song and songs!

You know I wonder... In allot of ways Maynard talks in terms of almost resentment for his mom’s belief... but not for her, and the Oedipus complex I don’t think so.. people deal w/ death and loss in strange ways so him coming across like that may be true but its just a sadness for her suffering and his lack of time with her Im sure. But even if he resented her beliefs, at the same time... I think in ways he seems to admire her devotion to what she believed in regardless of his personal views.
he seems to mock the congregation of the Christian church as a whole but thinks that his mom seems to stand apart from the rest he kindof gives her the benifit of the doubt, saying, if anyone could make it to heaven it would be you.

"Ignorant fibbers in the congregation
Gather around spewing sympathy, spare me
None of them could even hold a candle up to you
Blinded by choices hypocrites won't seek
But enough about the collective Judas
Who could deny you were the one
Who would have made it?
You'll have a piece of the divine
This little light of mine
The gift you passed on to me
I'm gonna let it shine
To guide you safely on your way
Your way home"

but regardless of his meaning behind the song... He loves his mom... and mourns her suffering endlessly I’m sure

I believe Wings for Marie was simply a tribute to his mother. He had clashed with her beliefs for almost all his years and yet of course he still loved her unconditionally. Maybe this song is just his way of letting her know how much he loved and respected her despite all their differences. Maybe I'm being all too simple about it, but to me this song is deep enough just as that. I don't think it needs any hidden meaning, the song is so emotionally charged that it is perfect just as it is.