Its cool. i always thought it was about Jesus tho but it could be both or neither - thats the beauty!

Where’s the sticker? Don’t lie. You don't have one. I'm not a special little boy, I am a special 23 year old women.
No one said you can’t have your opinion, you can. So can I, My opinion is your opinion is wrong. Until proven wrong. I'm also entitled to argue my point of view where ever the hell I feel it's necessary in this forum since it exists to discuss such matters. You should tone down the hostility, it’s uncalled for...

:D
first post ever, so here goes...

First of all, nice interpretation... rang true throughout.

Can't it be both? ;D

IMO there's a few things being alluded to in this song, one of which i'm now convinced is indeed maynard's son. Before reading this post i had a rather undefined idea floating around in my head going something like this:

Maynard's drive, ambition, passion to succeed in his chosen career is all down to a part of his persona which he detests...

'I would wish it all away
If I thought I'd lose you just one day'

it's not the best interpretation ever, ill admit.. but i really didnt put much effort into it. ;p I guess thats why im here, reading the Jambi forum.

The 'benevolent (sun/son)' bit is wiiiide open to interpretation - the benevolence could be describing say, a higher power, 'shining down' from above, denoting SUN as the word used. It could also referring to the naturally kind nature of a child. With no official lyrics to go by, it seems to be more fun to play with the possible meanings. It's for this reason that i dont care if they're ever released (but hey, if they are, ill be as curious as the next person). Just one of the many things i love about this band.

And as someone mentioned, while it is true that, at least on the surface, most of the lyrics seem to be all about maynard and no one else...

And Maynard is indeed a great writer.

(and now comes my own clumsy way of introducing myself)

It's been my opinion for along time now that a TOOL album is designed to tell a story, of sorts. While most songs seem lyrically to have little continuity from one song to the next, certain themes are explored before others, leading to a "logical order" from song to song. The deeper one looks, the more obvious this becomes. The interpretations people come up with are varied, but most people can agree on a common set of themes that TOOL allude to in their music (spirituality, the mind, human evolution, etc)... From Aenima to 10k these themes have been repeatedly explored - even if each album does stand completely separate from the others (which IMO they do, admirably). Its as if they are trying to tell us something, even if they're not 100% sure what that "something" is. After years of TOOL fandom, and indulging my curiosity in some of the themes explored by the band, i can totally dig where they are coming from (as im sure alot of you do too). Whatever that "something" is, it sure is magnificently grand in scope.

...Definitely worthy topics of exploration. :)

It can, I personally just don't get a feeling from this song of someone talking about their child. I haven't seen any evidence that points to it.
Happy first post to you!
M.

Unfortunately, even the "official" lyrics won't necessarily give away the exact interpretation intended by Maynard either. Again, as I said in another post....the intention is supposed to be so that each individual can get out of his lyrics what fits them.

The question is not what Maynard is allowed or able to do. We have the audio recordings at trying to figure out something. We try to think about what is possible through rational thinking, with a fully working brain. I can't see why Maynard would fucking sing "Jambi eyes", because the word "Jam-bye" doesn't exist. And Maynard pronounced the song as "Jum-bee". The only possibility left for "Jambi" is a joke. Or that it sounds like Jambye and that's why they came up with the title. And by the way, what are you talking about in the last sentence? Live he clearly sings "damn / dim my eyes". No wait... this sounds like "dimp my eyes"???

Now that's using your noggin! :)

M.

I agree, that does make perfect sense. Goddamn official lyrics need to come out. I think I'm going to tackle him to the ground, give him a wet willy and tell him to release the lyrics when I see him here at the Chicago show.

i think he's singing to king solomen

Here is the correct translation of the above verse, as incorrectly ;-) paraphrased by GreenBuds:

Pray like a martyr dusk to dawn:
Dusk is when the light of day disappears. Dawn is when it reappears. The disappearance of light is universally symbolic for the onset of "darkness" or confusion in one's life. The dawn is universally symbolic of the return of "light" or happiness and understanding once again. So, during the time when Maynard assumedly entered a "dark" phase of his life he spent the whole time in prayer, like someone who dies for their beliefs, like a martyr. Maynard was living a life that was contrary to the interests of his worldly flourishing, and he did so on purpose for the sake of a greater cause, or so he believed at the time. By including the word "martyr" in this line, that is what is implied.

Beg like a hooker all night long:
Even martyrs who die for their beliefs lose their resolve at times. During the dark phase of Maynard's life, he was begging to get out of that dark phase like a hooker. He didn't want to be there, but then again he DID want to be there on some level because he admits in the last line that he "got what he wanted all along". So, what we have is a conflict of interests within him. He willed himself into darkness, but simultaneously -like a hooker would do anything for sex- he would have done anything to end the darkness. It's possible that he touches upon this experience in the lyrics for "Prison Sex".

Shout to the devil with my song:
To "shout" in this line means "to complain". You could almost take this line literally, if you assume that at one point Maynard was writing songs about his own self-pity. If not literally, it just means he had a hard time maintaining the vision that his suffering was for a good purpose. He complained to himself occasionally. Self-pity is by most considered to be the cause of a "darkened" spirit. Maynard's song of self-pity is something that only would appeal to the devil. God is not known for listening to complainers.

And got what I wanted all along:
The tortured existence that he describes in the previous three lines is something that he actually sought for. He was living VICARIOUSLY off of his own tragic life, off of his own sense of self-pity. He was glorifying his tragic circumstances to himself. He believed his suffering was for some higher purpose. This is something I believe many of us do. I certainly have. If you do it, remember before you start that there is no such thing as turning back, and it gets increasingly DIFFICULT.


This entire verse is about purposefully seeking out tragedy for yourself. It enriches the song tremendously. By including this verse in the song, Maynard acknowledges that he just as relievedly departed from living vicariously off of his own tragedy as he did from the painful experiences of what any of the other beginning verses in this song describe. This is just another pattern of behavior that the subject of this song, whoever it is, redeemed him of.


"Damn my eyes, Jambi!"

Jambi was a wishing genie that Pee-wee Herman went to for help with various things. Maynard pleading for Jambi to damn his eyes is like a humorous take on Dante pleading to the greek god appollo to gain poetic insight. In both cases, in Maynard's and Dante's, they are pleading to their respective benefactors in order to gain "heavenly" insight to help those that they believe need help.

When your eyes are "damned", figuratively speaking, you no longer can see outwardly and so are left to turn inwardly and reflect on the nature of your own psychology. Being in such a lofty position as Maynard explicitly says he is in during the first verse of this song, the only purpose to wish for your eyes to be damned would be to gain the psychological insight needed to light the way of others who are lost and need help, whether that person be his son or the troubled listeners who have supported him throughout. Both of them have provided a "fulcrum" of power and inspiration for Maynard to do positive things in his life with.

This song is an acknowledgement by Maynard that something or someone was pivotal in redeeming him from a place that he didn't want to be, and that Maynard could now not conscientiously abandon that person after all that person has done for him. The song in and of itself does not provide much for specificity as to who exactly Maynard is referring to. I like to believe (because of what is stated in other songs throughout this album and previous ones) that he is referring to his fans; "the damaged and broken met along this tedious path [he's] chosen here"(The Patient). If not for those people, the fans he meets along the way, he "certainly would have walked away by now", as he explicitly says during that song on the Lateralus album. Therefore, we know he feels a debt of gratitude to help out his damaged and broken fans. Also, his son (I believe his name is Devo) will always automatically be in Maynard's life because they are family, and I'm sure Maynard is not purposefully anticipating their separation. Tool's fans, however, the band might go stray from if there style progresses too far from its origins. This is a dilemma any band faces as they try to progress musically, but without alienating the ones who started them out in success. They want to grow without abandoning.


btw, Tool fans.. If I AM right with my understanding of this song, then I would ask you to give this band a mandate for experimenting HOWEVER they see fit with their albums. They have certainly earned my trust from their performance up to date. If they felt compelled to start playing Big Band music, with trombones and cymbals and stuff, I'd be genuinely and unconditionally intrigued as to why they made that decision. I would give them their absolute freedom, and would always pay respects to their creations (unless they really did suck bad).



"Shine on forever, Benevolent SUN."

This lyric could not be "son". A "sun" COULD actually shine on forever, hypothetically speaking, but a "son" could only shine on for about 80-90 years at most, and a "son" could certainly not shine upon EVERYBODY... unless Maynard is referring to the son of god.

-Godin

Wow. Good post Godin. Very well thought out.
But I'm going to disagree with you on a few points...

A minor point perhaps, but you seem to have misused the word "vicariously" here. To live vicariously doesn't mean just to feed on tragedy, it means to live through events that happen to OTHER people. Kinda like living by proxy. So it is impossible to live "vicariously" off ones OWN tragedy/life. But I do like your general idea here.

"But I would wish it all, away... If I thought I'd lose you just one day"
Would Maynard wish away all his success to avoid losing his FANS for just one day? I think this line shows that the target of the song is someone close to him that he has a very personal relationship with. Probably his son IMO but maybe someone else.
And I don't think the song shows him to be "purposely anticipating" any separation. He's not saying he fears an ACTUAL separation from his son (or whoever), but just that he loves him so much he'd give away everything not to ever lose him.

Definitely COULD be "son". I think it's a deliberate pun using "son/sun" to link the sun imagery to his son. And a son's achievements can certainly shine on after he has died (Maynard's music is likely to shine on beyond his lifespan). And he doesn't say "everybody" at all, only "Shine upon the MANY". Tool's music has certainly reached the ears of "many", couldn't he be hoping for his son to have a similar widespread positive influence?

If I have misused the word, then my overall point is not tarnished. I would just need to replace "vicarious" with another word. But, here is a justification as to why I used "vicarous", and why I CAPS LOCKED it.

We live vicariously through characters when we read or watch narrative stories. All myths are narrative stories, so we live vicariously through them as well. Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell not only said that myths reside over an entire culture in each individual's collective unconsciousness, but they also claimed that each individual lives according to their own PERSONAL MYTH; a personal myth which is basically a nuanced version of the more universal myth which resides over the entire culture.

The verse that I paraphrased in detail above would be the personal myth of Maynard. He envisioned himself as suffering like a martyr for some greater cause (I like to think it was the greater cause of gaining insight through suffering to help his fans). When we perceive the events of our life in a removed story-like fashion as Maynard suggests he was doing here, we view ourselves as merely a character in that story; as the main character in our personal myth. Since we project the real events of our life into a fictional story-like scenario inside of our minds, and we consider ourselves as a character inside of that story (a mental recreation of our actual selves) then we may live vicariously through the mythical version of ourselves which is shielded from reality by living inside of our minds.

People who live according to some conception of a personal myth, whether they realize it or not, actually process all of their experiences through the context of that personal myth and so experience their lives second-hand, as if they were living out a pre-written narrative. This is my justification for using the word "vicarious" with the above post. Far-fetched though it is, I believe it is psychologically sound.

I caps locked "vicarious" because I think this more personal definition of vicariously living through your own personal myth of suffering is what Maynard was truly alluding to with "Vicarious" the song. It would explain the "part vampire, part warrior" lyric in the song, since the individual living out his own personal myth would be doing so by feeding off of his own blood while simultaneously doing it for a heroic/warrior-like reason. He would be doing it for some perceived greater cause, just like Maynard implies he was like a "martyr" for his own cause.



Aha. It's starting to make sense:


"No pressure could hold sway, or justify my giving away my center...

...Damn my eyes, if they should compromise a fulcrum.
[When] wants and needs divide me thin, then I might as well be gone...

Shine on forever. Shine on, benevolent sun/son.
Shine on upon the severed, shine on 'til the two become one. (till wants and needs merge into one)
Divide and I'm withering away."


This song is about orienting yourself so that you want what you need, so that the two overlap and are organic to each other. It could apply to his son, but more importantly it applies ambiguously to the feeling of wanting and needing themselves. This was the initial impression I got with this song.. that it was an ambiguous message which was directed at the feelings inside the man and not at the particular people or objects that the feelings arise from. I didn't want to at first believe it was ambiguous like this, but now that I understand it more profoundly I think it's actually a very beautiful ambiguous notion captured in song. :-) Props, MJK.

-Godin

Um, too bad it's "tempted the devil with my song"....the rest of that was nonsense

While I still feel the above quote of mine is interesting, I'm starting to think that "damn my eyes" is more suggesting the following:

"So that I may not look outwardly away from my center, so that I do not look to want anything other than my needs, damn my eyes from being teased with temptation for anything other than maintaining my center".

-Godin

....however, most of the posts here fail to recognize the root word of "Jambi" in latin! Jamb is (like a door jamb) a post used for supporting something else....and you should all know what 'bi' means....2 pillars of support....a dual system, jambi-eyes could mean "pry open both of my eyes and prop them open so I don't blink and miss something" or something to that extent....its something I've considered....by all means not something I'm set on yet....
but I do think that the 2 jambs are key...

that said, just because he calls the song "jam-bee" doesn't neccessarily mean that he doesn't pronounce it differently within the song....

This is how I feel as well. I love reading the different interpretations. It's the beauty of Tool and of Maynard's absolute genius with words. I don't really mind what the song is ACTUALLY about as long as I can spend time thinking about it, discussing it, looking at different interpretations... There are so few bands you can actually do that with, and it's an awesome feat that any piece of music can make you WANT to go into so much depth and explore every layer. It's amazing. So I am really enjoying this thread, well thought out interpretations are great to read.

Cool. I understand how you're using the word now, and it does make sense. It's definitely a reasonable way of looking at this song.
But I think you'd be very wrong to apply this idea to the song "Vicarious" itself. It seems pretty clear that in that song he's referring to feeding off OTHER people's tragedy through the media.

Yup. With you totally here. That's the genious of Maynard's lyrics. How he's able to take something very specific and personal and distill it down to something general enough that we can all relate to it, without losing any of the original emotional power. Amazing song.

Yeah, I think that's an improvement too. Though I think it's actually "DIM my eyes (x3)" it would have exactly the same meaning.
Also, consider that to "compromise a fulcrum" would be to upset a balance (a fulcrum provides a balance), i.e. a balance between wants and needs.

My take on these lyrics:

"DIM my eyes if they should compromise OUR fulcrum
(If) want and need divide me then I might as well be gone"

You are entitled to your wrong opinion

^ Did you have to quote the entire original post just to say you disagree? How about saying WHY you disagree!

Thanks for your feedback. It's obvious to me why you or anyone would think that "Vicarious" is exclusively about "feeding off OTHER people's tragedy through the media". I welcome you to comment further on this subject in the "Vicarious" message base. I think I'll start a thread in there about the possibility for an alternate definition of the song. I am taking it as a personal challenge to justify why I'm so compelled to believe the song is not exclusively about suffering as focused upon in the media. If I fail, then at least I'll have shaved off my false understanding of the song.

-Godin

suffering here, suffering there, suffer suffer everywhere.

how much difference does it make? if we feed on our own-are we not programmed for suffering as little christians? does not most of the world sit around waitng for jesus and the second coming to make it right?

the image that comes to me from the guitar at the end of the song after the lines, much better you than i.... is of jesus being nailed to the cross one arm at a time- and then trying to pull himself off (the steps up the scale) to being nailed again.....and again....

because that's what so many want to do nowdays. just leave it all up to jesus to solve. we don't have to be responsible for the environment, god will fix it all soon.
i read an interview with maynard where he bascially said he tried to educate people in lateralus but most are not ready/unable to understand so to hell with them and that is what the much better you than i line is about. but i like the jesus take on it. and i can interpret the way i choose. just like you all can interpret the way you will. and it's all good.

but there is no good in the world where there is not bad as well. so it is. so it's always been.

Well, fulcrum's are "the support on which a LEVER rests or turns (def)". Levers potentially provide increased power. Just as I intuitevly thought, a fulcrum is just the thing that sits on bottom of the see-saw set-up. The word does not imply balance. We know, though, that a fulcrum can create balance or it can increase or decreese leverage.

So, with this more ambiguous definition, the fulcrum could be to achieve a balance between want and need or to achieve the leverage from his fans to spread his art into the world. I suppose, if the lyrics really are "wants and needs divide me thin, etc" then I'd say the fulcrum refers to balance. If the lyrics are something else, then the fulcrum could potentially refer to the providing of increased power just as well. At this point I think the "want and need" lyric is right.

-Godin

^ I realise this. I didn't mean to suggest this was the ONLY interpretation, just that it was a good one given the wants Vs needs theme that we both seem to agree is an important part of this songs meaning.

I don't think there are enough syllables in this part of the song for this to be correct. It has to be either "divide me THIN" or "divide me THEN", but it can't be both. This seems pretty certain as he spits out each monosyllabic word one at a time with emphasis on each one. I'm going with "THEN".

maynard was obviously raised catholic.

It is 'son' and not sun.

he is talking about bible verses.

yea, you know everything....

Wrong....he was raised southern baptist STOOPID

I have to retort this statement....as many times I've heard this song and heard "tempted the devil" today I was listening again in my car on the way home from work and whaddya' know, I fucking hear "shout to the devil"....I'm officially baffled

Yeah im fucking wetaded. me sowwy for not fucking knowing everything. Im only right 99.9% of the time. =)


I bet you knowing more about maynard then me, makes you think like your lifes a success.
WRONG, your still living in your moms basement scraping by with the help of welfare, jacking off to kiddie porn munching on cheetohs I bet your dumb ass's think your living good.
be jealous, you should be.

I'll bet your not-knowing things about Maynard, and just getting defensive, and quite imaginative as well, rather than RESEARCHING facts, makes you more ignorant....

Try to minimize the insults and keep on task here....

Ditto that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !

My Jr. just turned four and I have learned more about myself since he came into my life than I could have ever known before.

I might add a bit of a karmic twist - something like I have given life to him and that may suggest I need to be at one with him, in order to harmonize, to fulfill a prerequsite need to grow... and vice-versa. We are part of the same, and we need each other more than we know (but we are learning every day...)

~fractal.b

I appreciate your confession, but either way I don't think it changes the meaning of the verse. To "shout to the devil" or to "tempt the devil" with your "song" would produce the same effect.. in both cases it could be said that you are TEMPTING, or appealing to, the devil to come and relieve you of your self-willed darkness.


"begged like a hooker [by shouting to, or tempting, the devil] all night long"

I know that you said my whole translation of this verse was "nonsense", but if you were to allow for it temporarily NOT to be "nonsense" then the following would be a valid point:

If you self-will yourself "like a martyr" into darkness within your life (assumedly for some cause greater than yourself, since that's what martyrs do), then to "beg like a hooker all night long" in order to prematurely relieve yourself of your life's dark phase would only be satisified by an act of the supposed "devil". You are sacrificing yourself like a martyr for the sake of God in some way, and to end it early would be an evil intervention by the devil. So, whether you shout to the devil or tempt the devil makes no difference. They both attempt to achieve the same result of ending your godly sacrifice.

-Godin

nice interpretation man keep em coming

peace

I'm sorry to say but, you're wrong again genius. For one, if anyone were to feel as if they were a sucess due to their knowledge about Maynard or Tool in general they would not be mentally fit for the real world. It's unfotunate that you feel I may be living by your standards but alas, I am 29yrs old with a 3yr old son and fiance and I own my own house and have lived on my own since I was 16 with a full time job, sometimes 2. So when all is said and done and you retort with your empty insults you will find yourself still jacking off to your own little kiddie porn in your mothers basement with and empty cheeto bag the sad sad realization may finally sink in. You may even have an epiphany and move on to becoming a glamorous street hooker, who knows? Good luck with that.

nice....you listen yet you miss the point of the message TooL provides.

whatever...even you're entitled to your opinion, even if I think its wrong.

anyway

As a father I IMMEADEATLY recognized this to be a relationship based song, but not about lovers...it was deeper than that. Every time I listen to it I think of my sons and the sacrifices I would make if anything were to happen to them. I understand the core feeling of desire to meet with their souls after we leave this rock.

I weep as I write this because the feeling surrounding the lyrics is so powerful to ME.

Keeping with the general theme of parent to child loss and reflection of a parent to their child about this loss, this song signifies TO ME the powerful bond of a parent to their child...at least for those who are/were blessed with quality parents/parenting skills.

i understand your feelings damaged.
nice post.

<----[lprevious page, dammit]---- i concur.

there may be other, more veiled meanings here, but my initial reaction to this song was to picture the positive influence that someone else had broght into my life. this wasn't immediately my son, but both he and my wife.

I think that you have a great interpretation, but, I do have one question. How do we know that Maynard actually was loving the "excess"? Do we know of any excess to speak of? It seems to me that unless you are a close personal friend of Maynard, (and who knows, you very well might be), then it is hard to make a statement on his lifestyle.

IMO..it's a combination of the whole rockstar thing. He spends so much time with his music and now the touring for us crazy ass fans which I'm quite sure he's tired and annoyed of but he'd give it all up for his son if it came down to it.

Another thing in which you are questioning above with the "excess" is the fact that Maynard has stated in the past that he's meddled with an assortment of drugs and he's sometimes gotten to that bottomless hole but was always able to climb right out when needed. So you put those things together and it makes sense to me anyways....He's got all these temptations and demons to fight being the star that he is but, deep down inside his son is his world "his fulcrum, his center"

....at least that's what I get out of it and it's probably because I totally relate to that exact feeling at times...

I can understand why someone who believes in Jesus would say that this song is about him but I don't think it is.
Based only on what I have seen and heard about Maynards beliefs, I don't think that he would write a song about Jesus. I personally agree with the song being about his son. Based on my own beliefs, I think that we should all have faith in ourselves and those we care about and not in a man that lived over 2000 years ago. If you don't agree that's fine. I am not trying to tell anybody what to believe. I just feel good having people in my life that I can trust and I don't feel like I need Jesus in my life to feel this way.