Ok dumbass.

I agree with this 100%. My sentiments exactly. The arguments both ways are there, and after listening the lyric could go either way, but I lean SLIGHTLY more towards "non" believers, only because it's more easily heard. Regardless, I like the line of thinking behind "the believers".

I like it. This does make a lot of sense.

I'm still gonna stick with my idea of this being god speaking though. Set in his ways and arrogance, the burden of proof is tossed upon non believers to prove he doesn't exist. She is the proof (his witness, his eyes, and his evidence.) The fact that she kept her faith for so long makes her the unconditional one. I think that's why the song is titled Wings for Marie. It's not like Maynard is giving her the wings. I feel that this verse is put in the perspective of god telling her that she deserves her wings. I could be wrong though, your point makes sense too.

Not to go off subject too far, but I love that maynard puts himself in others' shoes to give a different perspective on things. Like in Eulogy where he says "Come down. Get off your fucking cross. We need that fucking space to nail the next fool martyr." He's not saying that himself. He's putting it in perspective where you have to imagine being in the shoes of the people who had a certain way of life that Jesus crossed. Many people followed him because he seemed to relate to everyone and make sense. Jesus became a martyr by dying for what he believed was true... but it was against what was known as true at the time. That's for a different thread though, but my point is that he doesn't sing from the first person view all the time. Adam even said in the Guitar World interview (I'll have to look at it again to be sure) that his favorite song was the longest one on the album that starts off classically and builds up to a big finish. But he called the song "Those Shoes." I could be getting the title confused with the song that has the talk box solo on it though, which would be Jambi. I'll have to double check on that later when I'm at home.

I've read through 7 of the 12 pages so fogive me if this has been mentioned, but I gave up

besdies the nonsensical heeeeeeeeeeeeyoooooooo singing part I've come to think it's saying haaaaaaaaloooooo as in halo, fits better than gibberish and adds to the song IMO, even if it is wrong...

I don't think he's singing anything at all there. Just using his voice as an instrument. Much like singing la la la, only with ay's and oh's. I could be wrong though. You may be right.

"You are the light and way, they wi'll only read about, As Set as I am In My ways and my arogance burden of proof tossed upon nonbelivers you were my witness my eyes and my evidence judith marie unconditional one" He's saying that his mother turned the tides the burden of truth has ALWAYS been on christians. but his mother some how turned the tides and "TOSSED" the burden of proof upon the nonbelivers... at least that's what i think...

"Listen to the tales and romanticize how we follow the path of the hero...

...Listen to DETAILS as we all rationalize our way into the arms of the savior."


I have not yet seen this variation from "the tales" to "details" posted by anyone else, and I am just about absolutely certain that this is what he says. It makes the song significantly more rich.

-Godin

Yup makes sense and I have thought it before as well. Could go either way here but details sounds good.

Are you kidding? "following the path of the hero", and "romanticizing" are what TALES are all about!

I give up with you guys...

"Listen to the tales and romanticize how we['d?] follow the path of the hero...

...Listen to details as we all rationalize our way into the arms of the savior."




Right. Exactly. He uses "tales" on the first time through, in the first verse, so wouldn't you think on the second time through, in the second verse, he'd want to avoid monotony of word choice by mixing in a subtly different word like "details" instead of "the tales"?

When one had either the chance to repeat the same word or enrich the song by using a word which subtly adds to the import of the song -as long as the word variation REALLY DOES add to the song- then why wouldn't one go with that alteration?

Are you familiar with the intellectual buzz about literary theories concerning "the hero's journey" as depicted in literature and drama? It is by listening to DETAILS within THE TALES of the hero that we may live VICARIOUSLY through the hero and therefore "rationalize our way to the savior". It is thought that by studying hero stories one may be positively emotionally affected, and hence "saved" by the hero through the narrative of his life's story. The Matrix Trilogy is a good example of this phenomenon in practice (as I believe "10,000 Days" may be another). This is the explicit function of the Matrix movies (and perhaps "10,000 days"), to save the viewer through the medium of narration.


Anyway, regardless of any backing rationale I may provide, the ultimate rationale is that I listened closely many times and that's what he's saying.

-Godin

^ OMG, in the post previous to this one (in another thread), I also mentioned the Matrix trilogy... spooky. I'd love to hear examples of the phenomenons...

Well, I've reheard the song with what you've said in mind, and I actually hear DETAILS the first time, and the TALES in the second. But I still think it's TALES in both. The fact that he would re-use TALES the second time around emphasizes the fact that we believe in tales too much, you know what I mean? It doesn't sound monotonous... Notwithstanding, your argument goes unscathed. So, thanks for your post, and sorry if I came out as a prick in my previous post; I've just come across the most random lyric interpretation... but yours was not the case. I apologize if it seemed that way.

- Hugo

Sorry Godin, but I must disagree with some of your points. The first Matrix movie was intended to retell Luke Skywalker's story in Anime (not Aenima) style, but in live action, in a way that "modern kids" could relate to. The other two movies aim was to slip a BIG, FAT, SLIPPERY SAUSAGE into your, (and anybody else who paid to see them) sphincter, while at the same time, slipping a greasy hand into your wallet and rob you of your hard earned cash! As far as the path of the hero, check out the writings of Joseph Campbell. Pretty much every story ever told, in every culture, from cave paintings of earliest man, to modern stories contain these themes.

It seems fairly obvious that the point of the song, besides being a beautiful, moving, and very honest and heartfelt eulogy to his mother, is that even through her disability, paralysis, pain, etc...she remained faithful to what she believed, even though the people around her pretended to be so (feigning all the trials and the tribulations). The "path of the hero" line is probably intended to be a little sarcastic, hence "romanticized". The point is, she's the only one who stuck to her guns, and deserves entry into Heaven.

The repetitive use of "the tales", as opposed to "details" is to point out that that's all they are- stories, a bunch of B.S. that people use to justify their entry into Heaven, as opposed to actually living by the beliefs they profess to have.

I'm not ridiculing you by saying this (except the Matrix part). As far as intending to enrich our lives by his use of lyrics to tell a story, it seems to me that, especially since Lateralus, but all through his lyrics, with all his projects, that has been Maynard's point all along, i.e.-this is what worked for him, so why not give it a try?

Even though this post is not directed to me, I feel compelled to respond...

As you probably read above you, I agree with you on this point.

I'm sure Godin does not disagree with you here (or I)... we were talking about the specific lines: TALES vs DETAILS...

However, with this I have to disagree.

First: Luke Skywalker? I'd like to hear more about that, since it is not immediately apparent to me.

Second: Nobody forced me to go watch the movies. Nobody robbed me of my money when I decided willfully to go watch the movies. The argument which you use seems to work, but doesn't; specially with the scatological imagery... and besides, I did enjoy the movies, I did get good messages out of them. Sorry if you didn't.

Third: Ok, Joseph Campbell. From early cave paintings to modern stories all contain the hero theme. Got it. So? What's your point here?

Cheers

The reference would be to sodomy, not scatology, but that being said, the Wackoffskis themselves said they were trying to make a "Star Wars" for the new generation. The whole "chosen one" thing, bringing balance to the universe/force, etc..Maybe I shoulda said Anakin Skywalker instead, same thing though. As far as Joseph Campbell, he has written several very interesting books that propound the theory that the "path of the hero" is a universal human theme, it can't be "invented" nor taken credit for, because it is part of our collective unconscius. I think that it is entirely relevant to what was being discussed. Godin's and your opinion of the Matrix movies being an inspiration to mankind are every bit as valid as mine saying that they were (after the first) mindless drivel, and if you take offense to my somewhat vocal opinion, sorry.

High is the way, but our eyes are upon the ground.

Right, sodomy. I'm sure the Wachowkis said that to get more people to watch the movie, not to explain it. They actually didn't take any interviews, nor did they put any commentary on the DVD. I guess this lets us all interpret the movies the way we want to. Still, your connection to Star Wars is somewhat loose, and by your reference to JC, that connection can be made to any hero story, right?

And no, I don't take offense from your opinion. And by what I said earlier, we are all free to interpret movies the way we see fit, so don't go flashing your opinion as if it were fact... that doesn't work in this forum. I personally like people who see things where others don't.

In a nutshell yes, the hero thing can be applied to any story. Check out Greek mythology, Norse mythology, Mark Twain, ...etc....

Not sure how stating my opinion is presenting it as fact, but once again, that too is opinion.

I think the whole point of the "path of the hero" line is to contrast the hypocrisy of the "ignorant fibbers" by trying to identify themselves with the "universal hero", while not actually living up to those standards, making the word "tales", used twice, more relevant than the word "details".

Don't even know where to begin as far as the parallels between Star Wars and Matrix goes, but both are stories about a seemingly normal young man whose very existince is pivotal to the rest of the world(s) around him, and the "trials and tribulations" he must endure to bring said world(s) into balance.

We agree here, thanks for the further explanation. I, too, agree that it's TALES twice.

Granted. There are differences, though. The whole reality issue in the Matrix, for example.

On another note, a comic fiend friend of mine claims that the Matrix concept was stole by the Wach. bros from Grant Morrison, a comic book savant, who had explored the concept of alternate realities in several comic books, amongst them "JLA". But I say that art imitates art, and originality is subjective. It all becomes plagiarism when $ is involved. But that's just me.

Well, in the first post of yours here it seemed as if you were stating fact. I guess I just got that idea. And in reference to this last part of your post, I have just one thing to say: Don't you just love recursiveness?

Cheers.

Amen!! The short version of what I'm saying is there's nothing new under the sun/son (hehehe) And yes originality is subjective.

There are other parallels between SW and M that even have to do with how they were concieved and made, but lets dance to that tune somewhere else.

*dancing elsewhere, alone*

*lol*

...turn around, and take my hand.....

nice.

Sorry, had to. Besides, the way alot of other people here nerd out and slip quotes into their posts, I'd feel out of place if I didn't.

^ well, let me officially say that you are now in place...

of course, that's only my subjective officiality!

The first Matrix movie, and the entire series afterwards, was intended to be an original take on the hero myth (that, amongst many other complicated things). Now... George Lucas supposedly spoke with Joseph Cambell before making the "Star Wars" movies and is said to have structured the plot-line of those movies afterwards according to Cambell's research on the "hero" subject, and whatever other insight Cambell provided for Lucas. The Wichowski's drew their "research" from the same source as Lucas, just maybe through book research instead of directly. But, since the Wichowski bros'. movie came AFTER the "Star Wars" movies, then of course that means the Wichowskis also had Lucas' movie to reflect on. So, you are part right, but still missing the grand scheme of the entire context. I had to respond, but let's try to stick close to the subject at hand...



As far as whether "details" is part of the lyrics, I've said my piece. Read my last post again slower if you have to. :-) Do not dwell too long on my point about the appeal of word variation. Try this: Focus more on the fact that Tales and Romanticize couple up nicely because, like Iota said, Tales are "all about" romanticizing; and Details and Rationalize also couple up VERY nicely because Rationality is "all about" considering the details, whether it be considering the details while deciphering a story or considering the details of our ending while we're trying to jot them down on paper "for all the world to see".

Like I said in my last post, regardless of the fact that it just makes great sense for this lyric variation to be the case, on top of all that I know what I heard and it was good. :-)

-Godin

Lol. Nerding off is all about slipping quotes into posts.

Recursiveness: a profound notion to just sit and think about. That was a powerful comment you made, Iota.

-Godin

Yeah, thanks.

Recursion (or recursiveness) is always in my mind, in exactly the same way as 44&4 made his comment... I've studied this in Logic, and Computer programming, and in Logic it's the basis for decidable theories, and in CP, it's the source of weird but nice programs, and of course, AI. Fascinating...

Psycologically though, for me it's like you can always go one more level upwards, you know? It's like this movie, "eXistenZ", did you see it? I'm not gonna spoil it for you, but... well, you gotta see it. Even in the Matrix, when I was trying to make sense of it, I guessed there were more levels of reality, since at the end of Reloaded Neo starts to show off powers in "the real world", so the only explanation for me was that there was another "Thomas Anderson" somewhere, plugged in making all THAT happen... quirky, huh?! And I kept going "up", level after level, 'til I got to my insane conclusion that the whole world, the real, the Matrix and all others, where just the making of one mind; one person plugged in, level after level; layer after layer.

I don't know if I'm making sense anymore, but I hope you see (or have seen) that movie, eXistenZ.

I thought it said "...burden of proof tossed upon non-believers..."

To me that made the most lyrical sense, seeing as one of a non-believer's most valuable tools in religious debate is proof (or lack of).

I don't follow. If the believers lack proof then surely the "BURDEN of proof" would be on them rather than on the non-believers.

I saw it in terms of the entire song. I interpreted the song as an attack, so to speak, on Christianity, aiming the lyrics at Jesus.

I saw that line as the persecution of atheists by Christians. They toss their proof upon the non-believers, and it becomes a burden. If you research today, you will find huge amounts of documentation "proving" the existance of Jesus.

The whole song to me is Maynard asking why Christians are so special. Why can't he have his wings? Why does someone who speaks his own mind have to be persecuted by the hypocrites in the Christian community, in the name of a God who is apparently not as mighty as he seems, or why would the world suffer all of these "trials and tribulations"?

I don't know. That's just my opinion.

However, after listening to the song again with that line in mind, I think it sounds like it actually fits better. You learn something new every day. :)

Ah, I see.

He's not throwing proof which then becomes a burden, he's throwing the "burden of proof". To do this is to put the responsibility of proving something onto somebody else. For example, if you believe something that I disagree with, then I could either take the "burden of proof" upon myself by trying to prove you wrong. Or I could be "set in my ways" and "arrogant" by throwing the "burden of proof" back on you by assuming that I am right and expecting you to prove your case to me.

Welcome to TDN btw :)

The song is about his (now dead) mother, who was the only one who remained true to her christian ideals. Maynard doesn't ask God for his wings, he says that his mother was the only one who could legitimately demand her wings from God:

"You're the only one who can hold your head up high,
Shake your fists at the gates saying ... Give me my, give me my wings!"

Correct.

definitely.

Thanks for sharing that, I didn't know that was what the song was about. I guess everyone interprets it differently until they know the truth about where it comes from.

Thanks for the welcome, too. :)

My Take.

10,000 Days (Wings pt 2)

Listen to the tales and romanticize
How we follow the path of the hero.
Boast about the day when the rivers overrun,
How we rise to the height of our halo.
Listen to the tales as we all rationalize
Our way into the arms of the savior,
Feigning all the trials and the tribulations.
None of us have actually been there.
Not like you.

Ignorant fibbers in the congregation,
Gather around spewing sympathy.
Spare me.
None of them can even hold a candle up to you.
Blinded by choices, hypocrites won't see.

But enough about the collect of Judas.
Who could deny you were the one who illuminated
Your little piece of the divine?
This little light of mine, the gift you passed on to me;
I'll let it shine to guide you safely on your way,
Your way home...

Oh, what are they going to do when the lights go down
Without you to guide them all to Zion?
What are they going to do when the rivers overrun
Other than tremble incessantly?
High as a wave, but I'll rise on up off the ground.
You are the light and the way they'll only read about.
I only pray God knows when to lift you out.
Ten thousand days in the fire is long enough, you're going home.

You're the only one who can hold your head up high,
Shake your fists at the gates saying:
"I have come home now!
Fetch me the spirit, the son, and the father
Tell them their pillar of faith has ascended.
It's time now, my time now
Give me my, give me my wings!"

Give me my, give me my wings!

You are the light and way that they will only read about.

Set as I am in my ways and my arrogance,
Burden of proof tossed upon the believers.
You were my witness, my eyes, my evidence,
Judith Marie, unconditional one.

Daylight dims leaving cold fluorescence.
Difficult to see you in this light.
Please forgive this bold suggestion:
Should you see your Maker's face tonight,
Look Him in the eye, look Him in the eye, and tell Him:
"I never lived a lie, never took a life, but surely saved one.
Hallelujah, it's time for you to bring me home."

Pretty good. I would only disagree with the above 3 lines. I'd say they're:

"But enough about the COLLECTIVE Judas"

"High IS THE WAY, but OUR LIVES ARE UPON the ground"

"I only pray HEAVEN knows when to lift you out"

The 2nd one definitely isn't "rise on up off", and for the 3rd one the first syllable is very short, like "h'ven". I definitely don't hear "God" there.

^ finally, somone I can agree with in this thread...