sorry to interupt the james bond style kill, but i just wanted add that i am always hearing:
"[...]
Set as i am in my ways and my arrogance,
burning the truth tossed upon all believers.
[...]"

Sorry To meaninglessly post, but, I actually think the lyrics are:

"Set as I am in my ways and my arrogance.
Burden of proof tossed upon non-believers."

burden of proof tossed upon non-believers, or upon THE believers...?

It's non-believers, because the way Maynard sings it is almost like he's saying "none" a little, as well. It gives off the hint of non-believers though.

Take this into consideration: The "proof" of something becoming a "burden" for the "non-believers". This meaning, they have been 'proven' wrong, and it will stick with them as a burden. The song wouldn't be trying to prove actual believers wrong. You catch what I'm getting at?.

-Andrew

P.S. - Give it a good listen, and keep "Non" instead of "The" in mind.

^ sort of...

But isn't the burden of proof on the believers right now, as we, all semi-intlligent beings, know that this whole GOD business isn't as easy to prove as we though...?

I think mJK speaks of himself and his arrogance and his way of thinking, and therefore the burden of proof now lies on the believers, you know?

I guess I'd have to say I didn't getcha. ;)

And phonetically speaking, I guess both options are still open.

I think he's basically showing that with him being this way, and getting into the situations of asking for forgiveness, is proving the ones that didn't believe he could change, the "non-believers", that he can. That sticks as a burden, about how contraversial we've been in this forum, and etc... about questioning so many things for him in this album.

-Andrew

hmm... could be.

Still, the intention (according to MJK) behind the "... burden of proof..." phrase is not clear to me. I'll just wait out the official lyrics, and then interpret. ;)

I don't know the answer, but I think I can clarify things here a little. "Burden of proof" is a term used in philosophical debate to differentiate between a "default" position and a conflicting position that stands in need of further argument. For example, if I claim that "pink elephants" exist the default position on this would be one of disbelief, and so the "burden of proof" would be on me if I wanted to convince anyone that it is in fact true.

In the song:

Set as I am in my ways and my arrogance, => About Maynard
Burden of proof tossed upon (the/non-) believers. => ???
You were my witness, my eyes, my evidence, => About his mother
Judith Marie, unconditional one.

He begins speaking of himself, and finishes speaking about his mother. But what about the "burden" line? I don't know, but I'll say this: If it's about himself then it's "the believers", and if it's about his mother then it's "non-believers".

Questions/comments...?

^ ok, the meaning is clear now, of the "burden of proof" phrase, anyways! Nicely put, btw.

Yep, to figure out if it's "the" or "non", we just need to study carefully what spacemonkeyadb has just posted. I'll definitely look into it. :)

Thanks again for your very clear explanation.

Judas Marie unforgiveable one

is what i hear

^ NO, NO, NO!

Unconditional

Alright, I managed to cut out the guitar, and drums, and some bass (for some reason that won't go completely), and still came up with, only much, much clearer, "Burden of proof tossed upon non-believers".

Just listen very intently, with "non-believers" in your head.

-Andrew

^ got it.

.

I always thought non-believers.

Plus I like Maynard's sarcasm in his lyrics. Like in Opiate he says, "Jesus Christ why don't you come save my life now. Open my eyes, blind me with your light now." In this verse, I believe he is saying that the burden of proof is tossed upon non-believers.

Also, I have a feeling that this whole song built up to this verse because this verse is God speaking to Judith and telling her that she deserves her wings. Calling her unconditional one and saying that she's His witness, eyes, and evidence because she kept her faith for so long. Maynard's sarcasm again with God being set in His ways and arrogance.

I don't know. Food for thought I guess. :)

"Burden of proof tossed on the believers" doesn't make sense....if one were to say it they would most likely remove "the" in front of believers. Its NON beleivers because its irony and its the way Maynard works...IMO....

I may have created a bit of contraversy here by suggesting the "non-believers".

My friend introduced me to a site a little later in the way, www.azlyrics.com, which has a very good perseption on all of TOOL's lyrics.

-Andrew

No no, i really think it is

Judas Marie unforgiveable one.

^ Ha ha. I just tried to hear it as "unforgivable" but it only worked halfway and I ended up hearing "unforgitional".
Not even the slightest remotest tiniest possibility that it's "unforgivable". Sorry.

^

.

Incorrect. Saying "THE believers" functions to pick out ALL believers as an entire group rather than just any old bunch or subset of religious people. Compare: Would Greenpeace ask you to "save whales" or "save THE whales"?

;|

Depicting, not the religious, but the non believers. They'de be a completely different stage in their own, not a subset of the downgraded religious. Maynard is saying this because he has 'proven' to the non believers that this has happened, with his mom going to heaven, and him converting some of his old ways, he is proving to the 'non believers' about this. This is why I cam up with the idea of 'non believers', is because it makes so much sense:

A 'burden', which sticks with you and changes parts of your life throughout, was 'tossed upon' the 'non believers', and changed their ways of thinking, supposedly. This is why it makes more sense. He knows the ones that believe had faith in him, and his mother, etc... That's why it wouldn't be "The believers", it is "Non believers".

-Andrew

^ My point above was a purely grammatical one, & has no bearing on the THE vs NON issue. I was replying to the earlier suggestion that "...on the believers..." makes no sense without removing the "the".
I remain open to either THE- or NON-believers and was just pointing out that THE- shouldn't be rejected on grammatical grounds.

I'm deeply sorry, it may have been that I had just woken up and didn't think twice about reading it a second time. I apologize, and I hope you can forgive me for the misunderstanding. Take care.

-Andrew

I think there is actually some reason to prefer THE over NON believers.

Firstly, the phrase "burden of proof" already has a specific meaning in English. It is used to show who is under the greatest obligation to prove their case in any given dispute. For example, in a court of law the burden of proof is on the prosecution because the accused is considered innocent until proven guilty.
Or with respect to religion, a christian would likely view his position as the more rational or reasonable one, and would therefore consider the burden of proof to be on the non-believers to prove him wrong. An athiest would likely claim the reverse and throw the burden of proof back upon the christian.

This is the meaning of the phrase. I think that if Maynard was trying to say something else then he would surely have phrased it differently.

Anyway, given this meaning, what can be said about the phrase in the context of the song? Is it THE or NON? I think it depends on whether Maynard is speaking about himself or his mother...

Set as I am in my ways and my arrogance, => about himself
Burden of proof tossed upon (the/non-) believers. => about ...???????????
You were my witness, my eyes, my evidence, => about his mother
Judith Marie, unconditional one.

I think in this line he is still speaking of himself (therefore "THE believers") because it is not until the 3rd line that a new pronoun is introduced ("YOU were my...") to suggest a change of subject for the verse.

Also, considered within the specific setting of a courtroom, perhaps Judith was his "witness" and "evidence" of the kind of unjust suffering in the world that makes God's existence unlikely, thereby allowing him to toss the burden of proof back on THE believers?

Listening over and over, I have always thought it was "tossed upon the believers". I tend to agree with the line of thinking here, in the fact that he is the arrogant one, admitting it, and saying that he doesn't have to prove anything in regards to God. He knows there is a God but the burden of proof for other things, e.g. did Jesus really exist and was he the son of God, the burden of proof to prove such things is on the believers, not non-believers. That doesn't even really make sense, that the burden of proof is upon those who do NOT believe. I think this is a pretty easy call that the lyrics are THE believers.

Chad

I thought I'd check it out, and the first song I found this:

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/tool/rosettastoned.html

Let me post for those who don't want to follow the link, it's absolutely hysterical:

TOOL LYRICS

"Rosetta Stoned"

All righty then. Picture this if you will.
Grabbed at 2am and actually eating a, you know a box of crispy crmes.
I might need as I approach site area 51 contemplating the hoax.
Of people thinking we just took a flaming
Stale banana-split-the-skylight.
Well one opened up we'd expect to see in A place like THIS.
Code red I'll put us in a diamond setting.
Right on my Birkenstocks in the open.
HOLY FUCKING SHIT!
Holy Fucking shit!
Holy Fucking shit!
Holy Fucking shit!
Holy fucking shit!
Holy Fucking Shit...Holy Fucking Shit...Holy Fucking Shit.

Let the X-file be entered
As some kind of blue creature
I hate it when it stows a meteor in my bathroom
If you look at your appearance for a
Moment you can see.
Another banana bourbon enema

Someone hovered above my buckeyes.
My daily chore.
Maybe I'll run over the upper lid but all I could think was...
Careful to mark your girlfriends 17 fucking cats

The sewer line is waiting.
Like an apparition he had me crying out.

Fuck me.
Sodomy.
A dead head chemistry.
Bladder problems won't stifle me.
If I can't make it,
People who are watching see.

And after calming me down with some orange slices and some needle spooning.
He revealed to me a
Singular purpose, he said you are the chosen one.
The one who will deliver the message.
A message of hope for those who choose to hear it
And a warning for those who do not.
Me? The chosen one,
They chose me.
And I didn't graduate from fucking high school.

You be..tter.
You be..tter.
You be..tter.
You better listen.

He looked right through me
With somniferous almond eyes.
Don't even know what that means
Must remember to write it down.
This is surreal.
Like the time he floated away.
See my heart is pounding,
Cause this shit never happens to me.

CAN'T BREATHE, RIGHT NOW!
It was surreal.
Like I woke up in Wonderland
All sort of terrifying.
I don't want to be alone when I tell this story
And can anyone tell me why?
All the sudden my peanuts dance?
Will I ever be coming down?
This is surreal.
Finally it's my lucky day.
See my heart is racing,
Cause this shit never happens to me.

CAN'T BREATHE, RIGHT NOW!

You believe me don't you, please believe what I just said, see they're telling true
And this wasn't all in my head.
See they took me by the hand and invited me right in,
Then they showed me something.
I don't even know where to begin.

STRAPPED DOWN MY BED, FEET COLD AN EYES RED
I'M OUT MY HEAD, AM I ALIVE, AM I DEAD.
CAN'T REMEMBER WHAT THEY SAID.
GOD DAMN SHIT THE BED!

(high...I I I I I....high.. I I I I I)
(high)
[repeated]

Overwhelmed as one would be, placed in my position.
Such a heavy burden now to be the one.
Born to bear and read to all
The details of our ending.
To write it down for all the world to see.
But I forgot my pen, shit the bed again, typical.

STRAPPED DOWN MY BED, FEET COLD AN EYES RED
I'M OUT MY HEAD, AM I ALIVE, AM I DEAD.

SUNKIST AND SUDAFED, GYROSCOPES AND INFRA RED, WON'T HELP, BRAIN DEAD,
CAN'T REMEMBER WHAT THEY SAID.
GOD DAMN SHIT THE BED!

I...!!!

CAN'T REMEMBER WHAT THEY SAID TO ME
CAN'T REMEMBER WHAT THEY SAID TO ME
MADE OUT TO BE, A HERO!!!
Can't remember what they said.

OH NO, HELP NOW.
Can't remember what they said.

DON'T KNOW.
WON'T KNOW.
[repeated]

GOD DAMN SHIT THE BED!

---------


I think my favorite part is

Maybe I'll run over the upper lid but all I could think was...
Careful to mark your girlfriends 17 fucking cats


---------


Needless to say, I stopped looking there.

Chad

^ Yeah, I checked that link out yday. Pretty funny - obviously a very early take on the lyrics that didn't get updated. The lyrics for most of the other songs are actually pretty reasonable though.
..17 fucking cats... => my fav too :)

definitely THE believers...

The "UN" makes no sense whatsoever...

"burden of proof tossed upon unbelievers?" ---- I don't think so... Maynard's saying that with all his arrogance and opposition, demanding evidence from the believers (in Christianity), his mother is the only one that he's ever known to actually live life the way she advocated --- so in THAT way, she was his "eyes and evidence" to something greater. Not that he believed in what she believed, but she was the only one to exhibit the kinds of morals/behavior that Christians so often spout but rarely live.

"Unbelievers" has no place in this song, it just makes no sense at all.

^ not un, but non-

I hear non too and what I was thinking is he's saying that the "burden of proof" is being cast upon himself who is a non believer, and he's possibly trying understand why his mom was so stead fast in her belief, and in doing that, he's delving into it more trying to possibly prove to himself one way or the other that there was reason and merit for why she lived her life the way she did.

So, I think we all agree with me that the lyrics are those I suggested above, although the meaning may be vague?

-Andrew

I don't know, I've tried to hear both "the" and "non" and I hear "non" every time. Does anyone else think the verse may be God speaking to Judith and telling her that she deserves her wings? When he says arrogance in that first line, I think about everything that makes God arrogant, including saying his name in vain. I don't think Maynard is talking about himself in that line. Did anyone even read my post where I mentioned that her being a witness, eyes, and evidence to God be because she believed and kept her faith through her entire life? Would that make sense then to say, "burden of proof tossed upon non-believers"?

Maybe we even still have a few words wrong and none of us are right at all...

^ Yeah, read that post & liked it. I think the idea definitely has merit. But I prefer to think of this section as referring to MJK & his mother (the central theme of the song) and I think that if the song was going to jump to God's perspective at this point, then the lyrics would have given us a stronger indication of this. But I do like the idea, and you could well be right.
As to the THE vs NON discussion, I don't think it's obvious just by listening to it, and I believe there are valid interpretations of the lyrics for both options, so I guess we'll just have to wait and see...

I definitely concur.

judas marie, unforgiveable one...

IT MAKES SO MUCH SENSE GYZ!

You lost all credibility when you suggested "Judas Marie". His mother's name, the primary subject in this song, is Judith Marie. To suggest anything else is ludicrous. It's Judith Marie, unconditional one.

Chad

^ He's not serious dumbass. He's just trying to wind people up.



Or maybe he's right after all!!!!!!!