This is an opinion forum. I'm merely stating my opinion with conviction. That's allowed.

and yes, I am a bit self-righteous... I feel with good reason.. but I never forget it's an OPINION forum... you guys shouldn't either.

Maybe I guess my question is this, then, ThreeDev - Why do you think your researched interpretation of the song is likely Maynard's? I mean, many of us put a lot of thought and effort into getting the meaning out of it and many of the interpretations aren't that much of a stretch... any of them might be what Maynard meant when he wrote it.

I think that's why it's not so important to try to figure out the message of the creator because since you'll never know for sure you're still in the same boat as the rest of us. You have your best interpretation of the song. But you could be right as to its original intention as I or anyone else could as far as to whether that's what *Maynard* himself wrote it.

Maybe that's why I questioned your motive of trying to peg Maynard's meaning when even if you did manage to get it right, you'd never know, so why bother looking at it from that perspective and not just pursue what it means to you. Which in all fairness may be just as valid as to what MAynard meant when he wrote it as anything else.

(Forgive me for sounding like a jerk in this post.)

Many of you fine folks seem to believe that everything is subjective. If this is true, than so is the very idea of Subjectivity, and anything you say to argue your point is undermined by your own doubt towards it. Essentially, such is a view not unlike Nihilism, which is a belief in nothing.

If “the nature of art” is one of an individual’s interpretation of it, than why are you so entranced by the words and sounds of this band, when a block of wood could edify your philosophy just as easily?

Not true. If only a personal perspective is applied to what is “observed,” than one can never truly LEARN; they will only reinforce their previous beliefs. A superfluous act, as, according your views, to have beliefs in the first place is a breach of Subjectivity, and would be hypocritical.

If none of you believe in your own Opinions, as your arguments suggest, what are you doing on an Opinion forum? Why share your Opinions if you know it is of no import to anyone else? Why read other’s observations, or give your own, if you will glean nothing from them?

Then why did you profess interest in Maynard’s and Everyone’s thoughts?

The wheel/table analogy is interesting, but misrepresented. The original creation (the table, in your analogy) was made to convey a specific point/ serve a specific purpose... it is fine to garner something of further use from personal perspective, BUT you cannot continually discount the original intention. If you gave it more import, you may find your view of things radically changed, and perhaps very grateful that you did not limit yourself to “what it means to you”...

If we are all “One”, then we should start listening to each other and have a willingness to be wrong... even if that means being wrong about never being wrong. Otherwise, we’re stuck in a rut and blind to the need of getting out of it.

No Quarter:
Lock the door, kill the light
No one's coming home tonight

It's getting colder (7x)
Locked in a place where no one goes

Awesome!!!!!!!!

Thank you Weak...

Anytime, yo.

Did you know that if you force food up your ass, you shit out of your mouth? No really, it's the truth. I saw it on TV.

Yep, way to go justifying force fed young altered ego.

Dude, the point is, it's all good. But, when IT states, "No, really, this is it, believe me," I don't think anyone who has humility in check will pay much attention. For, that is what IT wants. And, IT has followed up ITs interpretations, valid as they may be, on other threads hammering it out.

This existence is not complicated. But, it is complex. Simple platitudes or blocks of wood don't cut it. There are grey aliens, I mean AREAS to life experiences and art.

If you want to talk scientific method, that's a whole 'nother ball game.

bellamadia: Thanks for that tidbit. I'm inclined to believe you. Somebody whispered in my ear the guy's name. It could be bullshit, who knows. It doesn't matter. There was a Cartman reference I was told about but, hehe, that would be too funny.

I hate even saying "I heard that" because there is enough bullshit on the Intraweb to confuse and disrespect the art & listener so, my bad.

I'm realizing Maynard has humbled a lot of himself out over the years. Deaths of people close to you will force you to face many demons. The album is full of confessions in my opinion. For as much as he works, I'm just happy he can smile.

OMG!M!M!>>#>Z>Z>! 11:11:11


maybe i dont really care what maynard is trying to say. Yeah, its fun to know what he personaly is singing about.. but once the song enters MY ears, and relates to things in MY life.. it becomes MINE. I think thats how music should be.

Towel boy, he's justifying his OWN opinion and thought... they just happen to align with mine. Yes, I know that disturbs you deeply.

You don't think "anyone who has humility will pay much attention?" Is that why you're quick to reply whenever this thread gets active again?

Towel Boy says, "It's all good." I've already stated that if you're wrong and happy... then good for you.

All good is different than all right.

Stick with Southpark and caring for the man who cleaned you up that day.

:)

Ok guys, taking you all back to 6th grade English Class:

The meaning of opinion: A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof

Example of an opinion: I think this song is about....

The meaning of fact: Knowledge or information based on real occurrences

Example of a fact: This song IS about...

Everyting you've stated Angelina Jolie, lol, is written as fact and you argue it as fact by putting down others ideas and insiting your view is correct. Then when someone calls you out on it, you say it's your opinion.

Yeah, all I can say is I was there and that is what Alex said. I tend to believe him, he seemed like a pretty upfront guy. But again, that is ALL I can know.

You are correct in your theory..... However this theory assumes that we can LEARN what the truth is. Unless we know Maynard, and assuming that he is honest, we cannot possibly know what the ultimate true meaning is of any of his songs.

Therefore, our interpretations are subjective. We cannot truly LEARN anything real from our thoughts on these songs, we can only learn what others believe. It's much like religion.

I never said I have "proof."

What a dictionary says... A dictionary is subjective if you anal dorks want to get philosophical.

but I'll play along with the definition... that definition does nothing to negate anything I've said anyhow.

this is an OPINION forum... I'm not going to preface every fuckin post by saying "I think this song is about"... just to placate the idiots on this thread.

It's redundant. Here, let me sign onto an opinion forum... then let me qualify everything as "this is only my opinion... but."

If people write something I don't agree with... I will tell them so. It's my opinion they're wrong.

Bush or Kerry? Watch the debates? Did you think any of their opinions were right or wrong? Oh, you didn't? Good thing, otherwise, you'd be a hypocrite.

a lot of you people don't even understand the basic concept of an opinion... let alone a Tool song. opinions can have conviction. and guess what... some opinions are actually right.

I agree; LEARNING from our own thoughts is a fruitless venture, and that was my initial point. We mustn't confront someone's opinion as merely "what it means to them," but instead treat it as a view that is potentially much clearer than our own.

And I also agree that we cannot ever truly KNOW the truth of Maynard's actual intention for the songs; but again, my point is that for one to discount the existance of that truth would render irrelevant any of their views brought to the table, as it would then only be coming from them. "Stinkfist" was once (to me) a repugnant song about anal fisting. Now I know it is something much richer than that; and I know it because I reached for the truth.

Hence we must seek out the root intentions, impossible though it may be to grasp fully. If you didn't think so, then, with all due respect, I doubt you would be here.

I hate to break it to you, but this is the pot calling the kettle black.

Again, you put others down, call them names, attack and act like you are holier than thou with your opinions that you insist are the answer. You must be a very hard person to get along with. I hope you aren't like that with your students. Hopefully you aren't. Maybe you only act like an egotistical jerk on web forums where you can hide behind, oh say, a photo of Angelina Jolie. It seems to me that you might be a insecure. Typically those types overcompensate as you seem to.

Ummm, apparently you can even read minds. Thanks for answering a question that you posed to ME. This just further illustrates my point.

The whole point to any of this wasn't that what you were saying wasn't an opinoin... just like any of us... it's just that you have the audacity to make the assumption that what you get out of it is exactly what Maynard gets out of it (in a nutshell) - I have some meanings to the song, and I'm potentially sure that Mayanrd meant one of those meanings when he wrote it...

But this is an opinions board on what the songs mean to you. Those are the only opinions that can truly, in a sense, be objective, because you're only speaking about what you in your heart and mind know for a fact that it's about - to you. Claiming that your opinion matches Maynard's doesn't meak your opinion in and of itself any less valid than anyone else's. It makes you seem like an arrogant ass that somehow thinks that he thinks on the same level as Maynard - or anyone else for that matter.

Just becuase you listen to a lot of Maynard's lyrics doesn't qualify you any more than myself or any other listener. Your opionion is just as valid. But it's no more likely Maynard's interpretation than mine. So you're wasting your time chasing a paradigm that you'll never be able to substantiate. Welcome to organized religion... "I don't like to think for myself, I try to figure out what Jesus/Buddha/Muhammad/Other meant exactly when HE wrote it... doesn't matter what I think it means... it's all about the creator"

And that's poor logic and rationalization.

1--- That's merely showing you how idiotic it is just to take the stance of everything is subjective. It's sarcasm, to prove a point... once again- over your head. It's not the pot calling the kettle black. It's the pot letting the kettle know it's full of shit.. and to take that shit off the burner.

2--- I am holier than though with my opinions. Relative- me to you. I am a hard person to get along with... if you're an idiot. Hide behind a picture of Angelina Jolie? I'd hardly categorize what I say on here as "hiding." Seems like I might be insecure? Well, maybe I can dig through some old pictures of mine, find the worst one possible... and then put it up as my avatar so people will think ... "this bitch is crazy enough to put that picture up with that face and those awful tits..... wow, she's secure. Let me go read what she's written!"


3---Apparently you need to re-read what I said.. and actually think about it this time.

and another thing Bella...

I realize you took a lot time to get into that silly outfit.. do you hair.. and got your camera ready...

But in my opinion, toolshed.down.net isn't a dating service.

But I could be wrong about that.

At first listen... I couldn't hear more than about 5 words.

Good song though. I think you guys read into these things so much. It's very clever.

That took me five minutes FYI. It was to surprise my fiance on New Years. Oh yeah and certainly my fiance would be quite upset if he thought I were on here trying to find a date. So, really, don't fuckin' claim you KNOW shit about me too because I won't have it.

Honestly, I looked at your profile because before I called you out I wanted to make sure you weren't some 17 year old that is still trying to find herself but when I saw that you were 40 all bets were off. You'd think by now you'd have a more open-mind, some respect for others, less of a fuckin' attitude problem and some security. I feel for you, I honestly do.

Oh, but don't flame me Angelina, it's just my OPINION and after all, my opinion is right if I live by your logic.

You make me sad.

This is the first and last thing I will ever say to you. Because, your ego demands attention and this the last energy I am going to give it.

In this whole thread, all you needed to allow yourself to do is say, "I'm sorry." Or, state, "I apologize. Sometimes I get too judgemental. That's how I roll."

For you to get so angry to personally attack in such a way is completely of juvenile mind.

I apologize for engaging your thoughts in the first place. I have no business here nor desire it.

Good luck. Out.

Well put!!

edit* Towelie later edited this part out but I caught it just in time.

Your entire post was right on!!!

5 minutes huh? haha
nice NYE gift.

"So don't claim you know shit about me." I didn't. I asked if you thought this site was a dating service.

So let me get it right.. You don't want me to assume anything about you... but it's perfectly okay for you to say I'm female, 40 years old, and insecure.

nice...

love the hypocrisy... keep it up.

This is the first and last thing? Okay, best of luck to you and your domestic partner.

Channel all of your energy toward his.

I dont understand how someone can say their opinion is RIGHT, unless it has been verified by the creator... opinions and interpretations are bed-pals.. and go hand-in-hand... There is nothing wrong (or right) about saying this song makes me feel this way or that... but saying "This is my opinion... this is what the song MEANS... ..i am right"
... i mean... come ON. Until Mr.Keenan comes up to you, gives you a good hard slap, and tells you what the song is about, your opinion is NOT right... and you need to develop the maturity to understand that no opinion is right until verified by the creator. Saying you are right makes you sound like a juvenile moron looking for an argument. When one says an opinion... im sure it's universally understood that everyone else thinks you think you are right... you dont need to keep telling people it. No.. you dont need to put "I think.. blahblahblah" but you also dont need to say ".. and this is RIGHT."
And in Tool's art (or most art in general) things are often purposely written (when talent is present) to have several meanings... it's a sign of a great lyricist to be able to write something and incorporate multiple meanings and feelings into one piece... Maynard does it plenty, and im sure he has here as well.
To say there is one meaning and nothing else is of any relevance or worth is very ignorant and very pretentious.
You have a very good idea with your view on the song, Angelina... but it's worth nothing more than someone saying it's an elaborate metaphor on anal sex.
Cheers.

And it's a sad day when people start making fun of other people's clothes and hair styles, or assuming they know anything about someone based on what they decide to anonymously type on a message board.

1--- Until he slaps me and tells me I'm wrong. I will be right. It's my opinion. Sometimes opinions are more than just speculation.

2--- I know. That's the whole point. Think about it.

on a sidenote... you say... "Maynard does it plenty, and I'm sure he has here as well."

Let me play the game since all of you like to waste my time doing it...

Maynard does what plenty?! You're not Maynard, you don't know what he's really saying! Don't pretent you know. Unless Maynard comes to your and slaps you on the forehead... you don't know he does anything plenty!

You also say "I'm SURE he has here as well.." How can you be SURE! I'm gonna call the Maynard police and clog up the boards now. I am so offended you think you're "sure" about something! You have absolutely not right to feel self-assured about anything... if you do, it will rattle my own self identity and bring me to tears... please stop. You know nothing like the rest of us imbeciles!

3--- There is 1 meaning. Not everything else is entirely meaningless all the time.. Rosetta is a good example.

My opinion will be right until "proven" wrong.
Is someone guilty until proven innocent in our country?

If Maynard knocks on my door and says he read the post and says I'm wrong. Then I'm wrong.

I wish he would read all my posts and then make his own post telling you just how accurate I am... and how clueless that makes you. I'd even be content with him acknowleding to you fools that "yes, I had an actual intended meaning when I sat down and wrote this fucking song... of course I did. Are you serious? God damn, what the fuck is wrong with people.."

How can i be sure? that's what an opinion is. I'm sure of something because, in my opinion, i am correct.
I'm not saying you're wrong. I agreed that your view on the song was a good one. I'm saying you're acting arrogant and maybe need to grow up. It seems you like saying an opinion like it's fact to start arguments. This place is for discussion, man... but how can you discuss things when everyone else is wrong? In your mind, there is no discussion neccessary.
I don't get your problem.
Why are you relating having an opinion to being guilty or innocent?
Makes no sense.

Hey, look at that, another stupid flamer shits on his thread to increase posts, but has nothing to say.

This makes absolutely NO sense. I didn't assume you were female, you called yourself a bitch and mentioned your tits... so unless you are a transsexual I don't see how I am assuming anything.

Also, your profile says you are 40, again, no assuming.

And as far as the insecurity goes, I don't need to assume my dear, you show it in your every post.

I realize though that you really have had nothing of any real intelligence to say and that is why your opinions have to be so strong. Stop trying to prove you can play with the big boys on the tool site and just be real.

You are not worth any more of my time. I'd rather have intelligent debate with some of the people on this site that have something valuable to say.

Gooooooood luck!

How can you be sure? "Because it's my opinion." Well, that's my take as well. I don't get on here to start arguments. I defend my own opinion on the song. I'm not acting arrogant. If it comes across that way... then it's your opinion I'm arrogant... that's fine.

I do speak my mind like it's a fact... that's how certain I am it's right. = (the inspiration/reason the man sat down to write the song)

I'm not Maynard. I concede I could be wrong. But I am not going to pussyfoot around and hold hands with everyone. Especially when the people who tend to disagree either think the majority of the songs are about either...

1) Anal Sex
or
2) LSD or drugs in general

... which is a fucking joke.

but the sad reality is, I'd rather have some kid come on here and think 4 degree is about fucking some girl in the ass than have some kid come come onto an opinion page and clog the whole thread by trying to tell me not to have an opinion with any conviction... or worse yet... not to have any opinion at all because everything in life is subjective. How deep. There's a place for that type of thinking and philosophy.. and I'd even join the discussion... but it's ridiculous to come on this thread talking that nonsense.. and that's a fact.

and not "everyone else is wrong." I've read other opinions that made me think to self, "wow, that's a neat perspective, they could be right about that." That just happens too rarely because people are too caught up in anal sex and drugs... or in this thread's case lately... "everything is subjective / dont have an opinion with any real conviction."

Everything made started out as someone's opinion. Some opinions are right.
When you're riding in a car. You're really in a car. You're really moving down the road. I accept certain "truths" in life for the sake of existing and communication with other human beings.. and I HAVE TO. Anyone can talk in circles forever about lack of "absolute truth" in life.

If you think I'm an arrogant asshole.. Then make a post if you feel the need saying... "hey bitch, you're an arrogant cunt." Don't clog the board by saying I don't have the right to have an opinion with some conviction... and then defend it when an imbecile says I'm out of line or too presumptious.


Opinion and "innocent or guilty."

In a trial, you're innocent or "right" until proven guilty or wrong...

I have the same mentality with my posts.

Until Maynard knocks on my door and tells me I'm wrong. I won't be.

I suggest you go and read all my threads. If you think I'm an arrogant fuck, that's fine. But you will learn something new about a song that you didn't know before.. and that's what matters to me.. even if you hate how I get the point across.

Thanks... I try talking her down in other forums and her self-righteous bitchiness just gets me more riled up.

*letting it go*

And...

Anyone else think this song might be about falso prophets?

There's a strong link in the tone (or, how I perceive the tone) with Salman Rushdie's "The Satanic Verses" (concerns Islam). I am NOT saying that this had an influence on the lyrics or ANYTHING LIKE THAT, I'm merely noting that the tone seems to be a bit satirical.

Picture this:

Mohammed goes up to the mountain and listens to the Angel Gabriel, only what he hears isn't coming from anyone else but himself --- he's justifying his own beliefs with angelic authority (Mohammed doesn't want women to wear scandalous clothing because it's a temptation for him, Islamic men can have four wives but he gets 12, make war with people who defy him, etc). Somewhere in there the writer (a man named Salman) decides the coincidences are too great and plays around with the "Holy Words" and Mohammed doesn't notice. The PROPHET doesn't notice, and then the writer loses faith.

I was thinking that the narrator in "Rosetta Stoned" is much like Mohammed... he has all these important things to say, he is the chosen one, but he forgot his pen --- it was all in his head, induced by hallucinations.

Now, I know this doesn't translate very well, but hopefully my clumsy synopsis and lame explanation gets through to somebody. Or at least makes them attempt to pick up and understand Rushdie's Satanic Verses. It's cultural and amusing and almost won the Man-Booker Prize in 1988 (Rushdie won the Booker of Bookers for "Midnight's Children"... so you know he's a good author).

Anyway, sorry for the length and inanity of this post.

BELLA says...

"This makes absolutely NO sense.
Also, your profile says you are 40, again, no assuming."


Funny how you didn't actually address my post at all.

Nice attempt at being condescending...

By the way, I was wondering.... so it's not okay if someone is 17.. and it's not okay if someone is 40. They just have to be somewhere in between apparently.
I am 40? My profile says that. I better change that... Funny, I thought is said 4° = 4 degrees... but that's how clueless you really are.

stick with what you know best, which is using TDN as your personal goth dating service. You might get some more dates if you actually put some clothes on.

The saying is "less is more." But that doesn't apply for you.

*sigh* to the above

Wearethestories, thats a pretty neat take on it... i dont think ive read anyone else come up with anything similar. It would keep with the general dislike towards religion or religious figures Tool seems to like to lean to...

Ok, this is the LAST thing I am going to say on this post, then I'm done with the bullshit. I couldn't let the above comment to Towlie go.

Where the fuck is this coming from Angelina? I'm not sure if perhaps Towlie is gay and said so in another post. If so, this condescending tone about him being gay is fuckin disgusting.

If Towlie is not gay and you just said this because you think implying someone is gay is an insult then that’s even MORE disgusting.

So on top of being insecure, rude and self righteous, you are also a bigot! WOW you just keep on getting more fuckin' pathetic the more you post.

Oh and for the 3rd time Angelina (learn to read) I am engaged, getting married in 2 months and not looking for a fuckin' date.

And, where the fuck did you get that I am goth? Oh wait; you have no basis for any of your comments. That's right! For a moment I thought I was dealing with a reasonable person.

Take that picture of Angelina down too, someone as humble and giving as her would be appalled to have her image associated with someone like you.

Last but not least, your comments about how I look and dress make you look incredibly immature, insecure and jealous. It's not becoming at all.

Why don't YOU channel all of that energy on some soul searching, maybe get to the root of why you are the way you are and work on improving yourself. I hope someday you'll find it in yourself.

I'm done.

Bella, I see you still never addressed my post.

You're done? Darling, you never got started.

Towlie, yes, he's a gay. I am merely wishing him the best! Channel that energy, Towlie.

Sincerely, the
insecure, rude, immature, jealous, self-righteous bigot dude chick who's always right.

P.S.
Getting married in two months? Congrats. I'm sure he's thrilled.

personally, in my humble opinion, i think threedeviations is 95% wrong. don't tell him i said so though :)

so much drama in this thread *sigh*.

in my opinion this song is simply about how the people who are privy to the most valuable information are always the biggest idiots ("i didn't even graduate from fuckin high school"). i don't think that maynard sees himself as threedev has put it (in this particular song at least),

"overwhelmed as one would be, placed in my position
such a heavy burden now to be the one
born to bear and read to all the details of our ending
to write it down for all the world to see......"

at this point, threedev believes that the narrator switches from maynard himself to the "typical" idiot fan.

".......but i forgot my pen, shit the bed again, typical"

i disagree. it seems rather obvious to me that there is one person talking for the duration of this song. i highly doubt maynard would all of a sudden start talking in the first person as himself for just this one part of the song, when (at least in my opinion) the entire lyrics are a narration from "our protagonist" or whatever the guy on toolband calls him.

just my opinion though, so hopefully another flame war doesn't get started here. some of you guys take this shit way to seriously. i'm sure someone will shortly tell me that i am definitely wrong. which is fine.

That's great you feel that way. Decent post. Instead of saying why you think mine is wrong. Say why you think yours is right.

(how people who are privy to the most important info are idiots) other than "and I didn't graduate from fucking high school" how does it make sense.

no need to flame you based off what you said.

But I will say Maynard has switched narrator/1st person before. Jimmy.
That's what i can think of immediately... possibly others as well.