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theamazingtool's Avatar theamazingtool
05-30-2008, 10:06 PM
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D.) all of the above
Old 05-30-2008, 10:06 PM   #41
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Re: Lucifer and Free Will (FOL related)

D.) all of the above
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ufopancakes's Avatar ufopancakes
06-08-2008, 09:48 PM
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This thread has been an interesting read. I'm familiar with Drunvalo from his videos on Youtube, but I have yet to read his book. How are you certain it is one of Tool's favorite books?
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Old 06-08-2008, 09:48 PM   #42
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Re: Lucifer and Free Will (FOL related)

This thread has been an interesting read. I'm familiar with Drunvalo from his videos on Youtube, but I have yet to read his book. How are you certain it is one of Tool's favorite books?
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Aboulia's Avatar Aboulia
01-06-2009, 02:04 AM
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Hmmm. A few things here that immediately strike me as unsubstantiated. My apologies for being direct.

First of all, there is a major premise that God gave anyone freedom. I take "God" in this sense to refer to the Biblical God in some respect, alongside the mention of Lucifer. Within this context I have been examining the scripture and find no mention of this claim. If one can direct me to it I would be appreciative. However, there are numerous occasions when the text implies the opposite. Take for example the repeated mention of God hardening hearts and bringing about the destruction of nations by his will alone. His will determining the will of men. Also Jesus states in John (5:19) "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.". The most explicit mention of this is by the Apostle Paul in Romans 9:21 "Hath not the potter power over the clay to make one vessel unto honour and another unto dishonour?". Verse 23 "And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory," Verse 18 "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.".

On epistemic grounds its very difficult to justify a belief in free-will. A justification is an appeal to a determining element. As the philosopher Democritus said "By convention hot, by convention cold, but in reality we know nothing because truth is at bottom.". Democritus rightly suggests that we learn by convention alone, by prior experience. Convention then is a determining factor for one's knowledge/perception. Rendering such knowledge dependent on circumstances. I would then ask "how" one could "know" they have freedom. Yet, this very question itself seeks a justification for the claim. Something which is neither physically or logically possible is "nomologically" impossible.

On neuroscientific grounds: despite publications like "The Holographic Universe" by Michael Talbot and "The Brain That Changes Itself" by Norman Doidge. The physical brain does not violate the law of conservation mass-energy and is arranged not by itself, but by external influences in accordance with Hebb's Law. Hebb postulated that neurons firing together in contiguity will wire together. That is some metabolic change would occur strengthening their synapses. This is a neurological expression of classical Pavlovian conditioning. That process is empirically referred to as Potentiation and is the results of a complex of Neural Growth Factor, BDNF, NT-3 and so on. Like a computer, the brain has internal processes that are rooted in external factors. Nowhere is genuine freedom evident in the human brain, nor is there a point where natural law is insufficient.

Quantum Mechanics seem to be interpreted as being in a state of pure potential. This is not true, nor could it be, the uncertainty principle interpreted as a genuine quality of quantum events implies a state of inaction. For example mental uncertainty (cognitive dissonance). Even so, Stuart Hammeroff's claim that quantum fluctations in the microtubules of nerve cells is incorrect. They have no ultimate effect on the structure of neural networks.

Time-delayed consciousnes. It has become observed experimentally in recent years that so-called "free decisions" can be predicted up to 10s ahead of conscious awareness (Haynes et al.).

I actually interpret God to be the inexplicable causality itself, and our reason to be the "right hand of God". Our reason, by virtue of Hebb's Law, allows the brain to perceive causality. Perhaps a Bonobo could perceive necessity to some degree, but is mostly driven by the self-desire. Only humans (and perhaps dolphins) could fully understand the mystery of God (Col. 2:2).

It seems to me that this is Jesus message. Who could deny God then? Still there will be those who will say the kingdom is in the clouds or in the sea. I say the kingdom of heaven is within you (Luke 17:20-21) and all around you. God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

But even if that wasn't the intention of the scripture, it is inherent in it, as language is a system of dependency. Nouns connected by verbs, properties expressed by adjectives and so on.

In regards to Lucifer. What I understand is that it translates to Light-Bringer or Morning Star. Old Testament scripture is heavily influenced by astrotheological mythology. Lucifer is perhaps best considered to be a name for Venus. For example wikipedia states:

"Because the planet Venus (Lucifer) is an inferior planet, meaning that its orbit lies between the orbit of the Earth and the Sun, it can never rise high in the sky at night as seen from Earth. It can be seen in the eastern morning sky for an hour or so before the Sun rises, and in the western evening sky for an hour or so after the Sun sets, but never during the dark of midnight.
It is the brightest object in the sky after the Sun and the Moon. As bright and as brilliant as it is, ancient people couldn't understand why they couldn't see it at midnight like the outer planets, or during midday, like the Sun and Moon. It outshines the planets Saturn and Jupiter, which do last all night, but soon disappears. Some[who?]believe they invented myths that Lucifer wanted to take over the thrones or status of the gods Saturn and Jupiter, as a result of which Lucifer was cast out from heaven."

I think Jesus figured this all out, which is why he warned against human tradition (Mark 7:8-9 Matt 15) and is spelled out in Colossians 2:8 "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.".

Totally apart from this kind of interpretation. Other realities, like spirits and ethereal planes of existence are comforting, but what is there basis in reality? One ultimately suffers at the disillusion of their fantasy.

2 Thessalonians 2

"10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
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Old 01-06-2009, 02:04 AM   #43
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Re: Lucifer and Free Will (FOL related)

Hmmm. A few things here that immediately strike me as unsubstantiated. My apologies for being direct.

First of all, there is a major premise that God gave anyone freedom. I take "God" in this sense to refer to the Biblical God in some respect, alongside the mention of Lucifer. Within this context I have been examining the scripture and find no mention of this claim. If one can direct me to it I would be appreciative. However, there are numerous occasions when the text implies the opposite. Take for example the repeated mention of God hardening hearts and bringing about the destruction of nations by his will alone. His will determining the will of men. Also Jesus states in John (5:19) "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.". The most explicit mention of this is by the Apostle Paul in Romans 9:21 "Hath not the potter power over the clay to make one vessel unto honour and another unto dishonour?". Verse 23 "And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory," Verse 18 "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.".

On epistemic grounds its very difficult to justify a belief in free-will. A justification is an appeal to a determining element. As the philosopher Democritus said "By convention hot, by convention cold, but in reality we know nothing because truth is at bottom.". Democritus rightly suggests that we learn by convention alone, by prior experience. Convention then is a determining factor for one's knowledge/perception. Rendering such knowledge dependent on circumstances. I would then ask "how" one could "know" they have freedom. Yet, this very question itself seeks a justification for the claim. Something which is neither physically or logically possible is "nomologically" impossible.

On neuroscientific grounds: despite publications like "The Holographic Universe" by Michael Talbot and "The Brain That Changes Itself" by Norman Doidge. The physical brain does not violate the law of conservation mass-energy and is arranged not by itself, but by external influences in accordance with Hebb's Law. Hebb postulated that neurons firing together in contiguity will wire together. That is some metabolic change would occur strengthening their synapses. This is a neurological expression of classical Pavlovian conditioning. That process is empirically referred to as Potentiation and is the results of a complex of Neural Growth Factor, BDNF, NT-3 and so on. Like a computer, the brain has internal processes that are rooted in external factors. Nowhere is genuine freedom evident in the human brain, nor is there a point where natural law is insufficient.

Quantum Mechanics seem to be interpreted as being in a state of pure potential. This is not true, nor could it be, the uncertainty principle interpreted as a genuine quality of quantum events implies a state of inaction. For example mental uncertainty (cognitive dissonance). Even so, Stuart Hammeroff's claim that quantum fluctations in the microtubules of nerve cells is incorrect. They have no ultimate effect on the structure of neural networks.

Time-delayed consciousnes. It has become observed experimentally in recent years that so-called "free decisions" can be predicted up to 10s ahead of conscious awareness (Haynes et al.).

I actually interpret God to be the inexplicable causality itself, and our reason to be the "right hand of God". Our reason, by virtue of Hebb's Law, allows the brain to perceive causality. Perhaps a Bonobo could perceive necessity to some degree, but is mostly driven by the self-desire. Only humans (and perhaps dolphins) could fully understand the mystery of God (Col. 2:2).

It seems to me that this is Jesus message. Who could deny God then? Still there will be those who will say the kingdom is in the clouds or in the sea. I say the kingdom of heaven is within you (Luke 17:20-21) and all around you. God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

But even if that wasn't the intention of the scripture, it is inherent in it, as language is a system of dependency. Nouns connected by verbs, properties expressed by adjectives and so on.

In regards to Lucifer. What I understand is that it translates to Light-Bringer or Morning Star. Old Testament scripture is heavily influenced by astrotheological mythology. Lucifer is perhaps best considered to be a name for Venus. For example wikipedia states:

"Because the planet Venus (Lucifer) is an inferior planet, meaning that its orbit lies between the orbit of the Earth and the Sun, it can never rise high in the sky at night as seen from Earth. It can be seen in the eastern morning sky for an hour or so before the Sun rises, and in the western evening sky for an hour or so after the Sun sets, but never during the dark of midnight.
It is the brightest object in the sky after the Sun and the Moon. As bright and as brilliant as it is, ancient people couldn't understand why they couldn't see it at midnight like the outer planets, or during midday, like the Sun and Moon. It outshines the planets Saturn and Jupiter, which do last all night, but soon disappears. Some[who?]believe they invented myths that Lucifer wanted to take over the thrones or status of the gods Saturn and Jupiter, as a result of which Lucifer was cast out from heaven."

I think Jesus figured this all out, which is why he warned against human tradition (Mark 7:8-9 Matt 15) and is spelled out in Colossians 2:8 "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.".

Totally apart from this kind of interpretation. Other realities, like spirits and ethereal planes of existence are comforting, but what is there basis in reality? One ultimately suffers at the disillusion of their fantasy.

2 Thessalonians 2

"10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
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Aboulia's Avatar Aboulia
01-06-2009, 02:32 AM
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Of course Tool's lyrics, as well as the Bible, can be interpreted in many ways. A pure beginning could be our origins in purely causal elements as one poster suggested. The "second stage" is perception "Here we have a stone". Third stage is inference/reason "Gather, place, [erase, so / a razor]" and the desirable outcome "Shelter turned to home". But we end up leaving as one. In death, ashes to ashes und staub zu staub.

That is the fundamental problem with interpreting lyrics and scripture. The brain employs top-down attentional filtering in order to determine recurrent patterns. In doing so it necessarily ignores seemingly irrelevant details (http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Neural_Filtering). In addition to the synaptic strengthening that occurs via Hebb's Law when patterns are recognized (LTP).

In that regard, we are plagued by the same problems in a direct interpretation of reality. However, we may be most wise to judge for ourselves what is right, or judge ourselves for what is right.

Last edited by Aboulia; 01-06-2009 at 02:36 AM..
Old 01-06-2009, 02:32 AM   #44
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Re: Lucifer and Free Will (FOL related)

Of course Tool's lyrics, as well as the Bible, can be interpreted in many ways. A pure beginning could be our origins in purely causal elements as one poster suggested. The "second stage" is perception "Here we have a stone". Third stage is inference/reason "Gather, place, [erase, so / a razor]" and the desirable outcome "Shelter turned to home". But we end up leaving as one. In death, ashes to ashes und staub zu staub.

That is the fundamental problem with interpreting lyrics and scripture. The brain employs top-down attentional filtering in order to determine recurrent patterns. In doing so it necessarily ignores seemingly irrelevant details (http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Neural_Filtering). In addition to the synaptic strengthening that occurs via Hebb's Law when patterns are recognized (LTP).

In that regard, we are plagued by the same problems in a direct interpretation of reality. However, we may be most wise to judge for ourselves what is right, or judge ourselves for what is right.

Last edited by Aboulia; 01-06-2009 at 02:36 AM..
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Yast3r's Avatar Yast3r
01-06-2009, 05:46 AM
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I've read FOL and Volume 2 of it. I must say that I was entertained during the book; notice how I said entertained? If you break down all that he says within its pages--are you reading the thoughts of a delusional madman with a mediocre level of intelligence? The answer is yes. For proof of this, look to his claims about Uri Geller in volume 2. The man believed Uri Geller was bending spoons worldwide through his television special etc.

The man has written some entertaining ideas, but when you take a look at his collective work you will notice a lot of holes and just flat out hilarious segments. Look for his 2013: The Serpent of Light book for tales about how he saved the world by having his wife orgasm on a mountain top causing a thunderstorm of epic proportions.
Old 01-06-2009, 05:46 AM   #45
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Re: Lucifer and Free Will (FOL related)

I've read FOL and Volume 2 of it. I must say that I was entertained during the book; notice how I said entertained? If you break down all that he says within its pages--are you reading the thoughts of a delusional madman with a mediocre level of intelligence? The answer is yes. For proof of this, look to his claims about Uri Geller in volume 2. The man believed Uri Geller was bending spoons worldwide through his television special etc.

The man has written some entertaining ideas, but when you take a look at his collective work you will notice a lot of holes and just flat out hilarious segments. Look for his 2013: The Serpent of Light book for tales about how he saved the world by having his wife orgasm on a mountain top causing a thunderstorm of epic proportions.
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Esurient4Truth's Avatar Esurient4Truth
02-14-2009, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yast3r View Post
Look for his 2013: The Serpent of Light book for tales about how he saved the world by having his wife orgasm on a mountain top causing a thunderstorm of epic proportions.
LOL
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Old 02-14-2009, 04:11 PM   #46
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Re: Lucifer and Free Will (FOL related)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yast3r View Post
Look for his 2013: The Serpent of Light book for tales about how he saved the world by having his wife orgasm on a mountain top causing a thunderstorm of epic proportions.
LOL
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base metal's Avatar base metal
08-24-2010, 09:12 AM
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Hilarious thread, can't believe I hadn't read it until now.

5 stars
Old 08-24-2010, 09:12 AM   #47
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Re: Lucifer and Free Will (FOL related)

Hilarious thread, can't believe I hadn't read it until now.

5 stars
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