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Old 01-18-2004, 06:26 AM   #1
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lateralus as a holy gift

i know this has been discussed but i think this site has a nice summary of the whole lateralus reordering . good insight and is definitely worth the read.

http://www.oiad.net/lateralus.htm
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Old 01-18-2004, 07:16 AM   #2
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Re: lateralus as a holy gift

Interesting read, I found it previously on the toolband.com site referral to alt.music.tool. That link, though, seems to have particularly bad formatting. I don't want to read an entire, single page-long paragraph at a font of 10 pixels (not that I'm blind, it just makes it look that much more discouraging).

Why can't people on the Internet learn to use paragraphs?
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Old 01-18-2004, 11:27 AM   #3
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Re: lateralus as a holy gift

ok, i was just thinking, i really dislike the seperation of disposition and reflection, but what if eon blue isn't supposed to be breaking them up, but more of like a thought seperated from the dis/ref...like, its not actually seperated, though a song appears between them, as eon is meant to be more of like a disconnected transition.
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Old 01-18-2004, 11:41 AM   #4
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Re: lateralus as a holy gift

i read a little of the site, but it hurt my eyes, i already have my screen set so that i see everything as thought it were fontsize 10, and that page looked to me as thought it was fontsize 6 or 7.

anyway, i dont understand the guy's math at all. it seems like he is trying to explain something complex to a bunch of poetry freaks that have no idea about math and hence can be convinced of whatever. im not one of those people, i am quite good with math, and i dont know what the guy was talking about or attempting to say. and when he said that the equation for the fibonacci sequence graphs as a spiral, im thinking "where the hell did this guy come up with that crap?" because it doesnt. the guy cleverly forgot what the equation of the fibonacci sequence is though.. i didnt..
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Old 01-18-2004, 11:41 AM   #5
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Re: lateralus as a holy gift

I'll be sure to listen to the album in that order later.
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Old 01-19-2004, 05:36 AM   #6
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Re: lateralus as a holy gift

Write down the numbers 1-13 linearly. This is the track order as it is now.
Now make a parabola-shaped line connecting 6 to 7. Do it over top of the numbers. Then connect 7 to 5 underneath the numbers, and 5 to 8, 8 to 4, and 4 to 9.
Now you have the first spiral.
Faaip de Oiad serves as a connector or separator, depending on how you look at it.
So now we have 6,7,5,8,4,9, and 13.
Now, do the same thing for the second spiral. 1 to 12 (over top), 12 to 2, 2 to 11, 11 to 3, and 3 to 10.
Now you should have what looks like a small spiral infused with a big spiral.
Now we have 6,7,5,8,4,13,1,12,2,11,3,10
This is the alternate track list. It is created by spirals.

And yes, the Fibonacci sequence is used to form the Golden Rectangle and the Golden Spiral.

I never really saw dis/refl/triad as a whole song to begin with. The transitions between songs barely hold them together. If its any comfort, they are all still on the same spiral...
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Old 01-19-2004, 08:34 AM   #7
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Re: lateralus as a holy gift

can you do that for me and then post a picture of it> cause i dont have any idea what you are saying..

Quote:
Originally Posted by MORNING_GLORY
Write down the numbers 1-13 linearly. This is the track order as it is now.
Now make a parabola-shaped line connecting 6 to 7. Do it over top of the numbers. Then connect 7 to 5 underneath the numbers, and 5 to 8, 8 to 4, and 4 to 9.
Now you have the first spiral.
Faaip de Oiad serves as a connector or separator, depending on how you look at it.
So now we have 6,7,5,8,4,9, and 13.
Now, do the same thing for the second spiral. 1 to 12 (over top), 12 to 2, 2 to 11, 11 to 3, and 3 to 10.
Now you should have what looks like a small spiral infused with a big spiral.
Now we have 6,7,5,8,4,13,1,12,2,11,3,10
This is the alternate track list. It is created by spirals.

And yes, the Fibonacci sequence is used to form the Golden Rectangle and the Golden Spiral.

I never really saw dis/refl/triad as a whole song to begin with. The transitions between songs barely hold them together. If its any comfort, they are all still on the same spiral...
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Old 01-20-2004, 02:05 PM   #8
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Re: lateralus as a holy gift

http://www.angelfire.com/art2/gaia/lateralus

Sorry for the elementry school product, I just did it on paint.

Lateral means side to side, so the numbers are side by side.
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Old 01-20-2004, 05:42 PM   #9
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Re: lateralus as a holy gift

Quote:
Originally Posted by MORNING_GLORY
http://www.angelfire.com/art2/gaia/lateralus

Sorry for the elementry school product, I just did it on paint.

Lateral means side to side, so the numbers are side by side.

well, that is not anything to do with a parabola, and i dont quite put any faith in it because the song lateralus(when thought of with the mathematical interpretation) tends to imply the fibonacci sequence.. that spiral is just a normal spiral. nothign special about it. you could do that with any album.
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Old 01-21-2004, 06:50 PM   #10
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Re: lateralus as a holy gift

I still don't understand how some people won't even consider this alternate track order. All these similarities are not coincidences, at least give the album a listen to in this order. And don't be so naive.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmanson
well, that is not anything to do with a parabola,
Actually, it is.

How about inserting the songs into the Golden Section, where the two smallest boxes are connected by the Golden Spiral, creating a PARABOLA. It can only be formed with both the boxes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmanson
and i dont quite put any faith in it because the song lateralus(when thought of with the mathematical interpretation) tends to imply the fibonacci sequence..
I agree, I relate Lateralus with the Fibonacci sequence too. But I never said anything about the "mathematical interpretation", just the word 'lateral' itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmanson
that spiral is just a normal spiral. nothign special about it. you could do that with any album.
This is where you're wrong. When you insert the track list into the Golden Section, patterns appear. Parabola is just one. You ought to try it out. I think you'd be surprised where you end up with it.
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Old 01-21-2004, 08:16 PM   #11
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Re: lateralus as a holy gift

Quote:
Originally Posted by MORNING_GLORY
I still don't understand how some people won't even consider this alternate track order. All these similarities are not coincidences, at least give the album a listen to in this order. And don't be so naive.
how am i being naive? i have listened to this track order, but i find that it doesnt work right. the most glaring problem with it is at the end of triad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MORNING_GLORY
Actually, it is.

How about inserting the songs into the Golden Section, where the two smallest boxes are connected by the Golden Spiral, creating a PARABOLA. It can only be formed with both the boxes.

I agree, I relate Lateralus with the Fibonacci sequence too. But I never said anything about the "mathematical interpretation", just the word 'lateral' itself.

This is where you're wrong. When you insert the track list into the Golden Section, patterns appear. Parabola is just one. You ought to try it out. I think you'd be surprised where you end up with it.
you shouldnt discuss math.
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Old 01-22-2004, 12:47 PM   #12
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Re: lateralus as a holy gift

I'm just trying to show you another (intended) way to listen to the album. You may not like the way it fits, but Tool made Lateralus with two different ways to listen to it.
And why is it that I shouldn't discuss math?


PS The best proof I can offer that this track order is real:
Quote:
Originally Posted by www.toolband.com
14 Jan 04

"THE DEPTH OF LATERALUS"
I've received a lot of emails about this alternate track listing for Lateralus. Here's just one example: "Not sure if you are still perusing the stinking albatross that is alt.music.tool these days, but there was a pretty interesting post the other day that I thought I would ask about. This guy pasted a whole spiel of somewhat original thought from his friend about how he tried to pursue a so-called "Holy Gift" that he thinks may have been embedded in Lateralus. In short, he thinks that said "Holy Gift" is a rearrangement of the track listing to better incorporate flow among the concepts and musical aspects of the songs on the album. It was a pretty inspiring read, albeit at times it seemed downright silly (mostly due to the overly flowery wording the guy used, like "Holy Gift.")

I would encourage you to check it out, the subject is "The Depth of Lateralus," posted on the 8th. I'm writing to ask (although I fully expect a vague, vague reply) whether this is just another hashing up of a nonsensical riddle that the band members never intended to pose, or if this guy stumbled upon an intended "secret" of the album. I intended to try it out, if only to listen to the album in a new light and look for the patterns he explained (although we both know that if you want a pattern to exist, it will invariably present itself).

First of all, thanks for a very well crafted email. However, my reply to the question is: NO COMMENT (is that vague, vague enough?) The only thing I would say is, concerning this guy's "friend", why do such brilliant people have so much time on their hands?
Blair didn't deny it! He always shoots down false theories or ideas...
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Old 01-22-2004, 07:12 PM   #13
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Re: lateralus as a holy gift

this is rather interesting, im checking it out right now...when i finish i post some thoughts on the track order.

it fits really really well, its a whole new eperiance for this album

Last edited by chafro; 01-22-2004 at 08:34 PM..
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Old 01-23-2004, 04:13 AM   #14
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Re: lateralus as a holy gift

Quote:
Originally Posted by MORNING_GLORY
I still don't understand how some people won't even consider this alternate track order. All these similarities are not coincidences, at least give the album a listen to in this order. And don't be so naive.
What similarities? Some rhythm of the notes at the end of Parabola being the same at the beginning of Schism? Some part at the end of Pushit has the same rhythm as the end of Schism! A D is still a D. This is too insubtantial to base a whole theory around it and think Tool intented it. You can find similarities everywhere, because Tool's music isn't particularly varied. A D is always a D, a tribal tom patterns is always sounding like a tribal tom patterns (Schism, Ticks & leeches, Opiate, whatever...). Musically, these elements have almost no coherence, and there is no proof in the music that this pattern was intended. They are probably coincidences, because when you write music there are times when you write a part that sounds like something you've already written.
Are you Tool to say that this order was intended? Blair needed to TRY it, so he didn't know this order existed. He's not Tool but he should have known something about it... There so much in their music to find that no one ever bothered to explain, and most people here are only looking for esoterical shit. As Blair said : "We both know that if you want a pattern to exist, it will invariably present itself". Stop the nerd stuff and try to ANALYSE the music. That's where the true quality of Tool lies.

Last edited by Madklikor; 01-23-2004 at 10:52 AM..
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Old 01-23-2004, 06:18 AM   #15
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Re: lateralus as a holy gift

[QUOTE=Madklikor]What similarities? A D is always a D...</quote>

i personally agree 100% with that opinion..
i don't delete the whole "holy gift" project but the proofs aren't enough to believe in it... we still have only the 1-13 standard track listing, the qabalah project (with disp-refl-tri one track and 10 + 1 songs fitting in the tree of life), and we have also the 7 tracks project... (1, 2-3, 4-5, 6-7, 8, 9, 10-11-12) connecting with the seven ancient planets...

i think there might be something deeper but that's not it..



spiral out pls...
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Old 01-23-2004, 07:28 AM   #16
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Re: lateralus as a holy gift

and i still have no idea about the math that this guy was talking about..
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Old 01-23-2004, 12:35 PM   #17
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Re: lateralus as a holy gift

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madklikor
What similarities? Some rhythm of the notes at the end of Parabola being the same at the beginning of Schism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Madklikor
A D is still a D. This is too insubtantial to base a whole theory around it and think Tool intented it.
Yes, that is one similarity, but I'm talking more about similarities between the numbers of the tracks and the themes of the songs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madklikor
Are you Tool to say that this order was intended? Blair needed to TRY it, so he didn't know this order existed. He's not Tool but he should have known something about it...
No I'm not Tool to say so, but that doesn't mean I don't know something they know. Everyone acts so inferior to Tool, when we are all as equally capable to do everything they do and more.

I don't think you understood the quote from Blair, he said he recieved and email, and the first two paragraphs are that email, and the last one is his response to it. He said : NO COMMENT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madklikor
Stop the nerd stuff and try to ANALYSE the music. That's where the true quality of Tool lies.
I think its funny how people completely dismiss this track order. I wish Tool would just come out and say its true, so all of you who said stupid things like "stop with the nerd stuff" can feel stupid.

If you would try this track order, there is so much to work with. The entire album comes into play, like a giant puzzle. For example:

The order is:
6,7,5,8,4,9,13,1,12,2,11,3,10

6+7=13,
5+8=13,
4+9=13,
13=13,
1+12=13,
2+11=13,
3+10=13

I think there might be a signifigance to the pairs.

Also; 6 & 7, 5 & 8, and 4 & 9 would make a triad of pairs, as would 1 & 12, 2 & 11, and 3 & 10. Faaip de Oiad would be a schism of them.

Parabol and Parabola would be the first two because (like I've said many times) the two smallest boxes of the Golden Rectangle are connected by a parabola of the Golden Spiral.

I'm still trying to figure out why schism and t&L would come next, but thats the fun in it. There are little hints throughout the whole album as to how this track order falls into place. I bet if we all put our heads together, we could figure Lateralus out completely.

Last edited by MORNING_GLORY; 01-23-2004 at 12:40 PM..
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Old 01-23-2004, 02:11 PM   #18
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Re: lateralus as a holy gift

Quote:
Originally Posted by MORNING_GLORY
I don't think you understood the quote from Blair, he said he recieved and email, and the first two paragraphs are that email, and the last one is his response to it. He said : NO COMMENT.
Indeed, my mystake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MORNING_GLORY
I think its funny how people completely dismiss this track order. I wish Tool would just come out and say its true, so all of you who said stupid things like "stop with the nerd stuff" can feel stupid.
I wouldn't feel stupid... I would feel sorry for Tool to toy with such superficial things instead of looking for more profound musical subtleties. But hey, the band members said many times that they were nerds. If this order is intended, it's just a nerd stuff coming from nerds. What interest me in Tool is not the nerd stuff, it's the musical stuff. I've listen to the album in this order. Apart from Parabola/schism, I don't think it works at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MORNING_GLORY
The order is:
6,7,5,8,4,9,13,1,12,2,11,3,10

6+7=13,
5+8=13,
4+9=13,
13=13,
1+12=13,
2+11=13,
3+10=13

I think there might be a signifigance to the pairs. .
This could work with any album with 13 songs... just draw a spiral starting from the middle of the album and you'll got all the connections you want. A this point, it's just playing with numbers with connection to the art itself. I pretty much hate all these stuff in Tool. They're always at the edge to lose all their credibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MORNING_GLORY
Also; 6 & 7, 5 & 8, and 4 & 9 would make a triad of pairs, as would 1 & 12, 2 & 11, and 3 & 10. Faaip de Oiad would be a schism of them.
How do 5 & 8 work together? The link is very weak, it's just the same kind of drum pattern you would find in a lot of other tool songs. Mantra and Lateralus? I don't see any link.
The last three don't work at all... there isn't any musical connection between them. If this order is intented, it's very badly done.
Musical works with different tracks order DO exist : Philippe Hurel's "six miniatures en trompe l'oeil" is one of them. But they are not hidden messages in the album... it's intended and written with clear connections in the music and in the text that accompagnies it... but I think this order pretty useless in this case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MORNING_GLORY
I'm still trying to figure out why schism and t&L would come next, but thats the fun in it. There are little hints throughout the whole album as to how this track order falls into place. I bet if we all put our heads together, we could figure Lateralus out completely.
I understand that you think it's funny... it is. It is maybe intended to let the fans play and have fun. But it is NOT a brillant idea or the work of geniuses... as I've already said, if it's intended, the connections are very poor. If there was strong musical connections, I would believe it and find it brillant, but as things are, it's just a nerd thing, with the usual mystical and mathematical stuff. I believe that Tool's true talent lies elsewhere than in hidden mystical messages.
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Old 01-23-2004, 05:04 PM   #19
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Re: lateralus as a holy gift

Quote:
Originally Posted by mstajduh
you obviously haven't done the math enough to know........
trust me, im quite possibly the best person with math on this board besides fink, maybe a few others that im not quite aware of.. im certain there are a few..

but, the shit that this guy is spewing makes no sense at all. he doesnt have any idea of what hes talking about

there is no relationship between the golden spiral and a parabola. there are not parabolas in teh golden spiral.

that little picture he drew has a couple spirals, but they arent the golden spiral. and the fact that you can connnect numbers on a number line with a partial parabola doesnt mean anything..
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Old 01-23-2004, 05:10 PM   #20
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Re: lateralus as a holy gift

Quote:
Originally Posted by MORNING_GLORY
I think its funny how people completely dismiss this track order. I wish Tool would just come out and say its true, so all of you who said stupid things like "stop with the nerd stuff" can feel stupid.
i cant even begin to describe my reaction to this..

Quote:
Originally Posted by MORNING_GLORY
6+7=13,
5+8=13,
4+9=13,
13=13,
1+12=13,
2+11=13,
3+10=13
so what? you can do that with any album with an odd number of tracks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MORNING_GLORY
Parabol and Parabola would be the first two because (like I've said many times) the two smallest boxes of the Golden Rectangle are connected by a parabola of the Golden Spiral.
and you still arent making any sense..
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Old 01-23-2004, 07:05 PM   #21
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Re: lateralus as a holy gift

I suppose you have your own opinions Madklikor, but I see it completely different. The best way to listen to this track order is with some type of audio mixer, so you can overlap the songs, it sounds much better that way. I think it flows very nicely, like Parabola into Schism, Schism into T&L, Lateralus into Faaip, Faaip to The Grudge, hell, I like them all. I think it gives it a movie-like quality. I disgree on the nerd stuff, I look at Lateralus a whole different way now, and this way I can understand it and make sense of most of it.

Yes, I know my number theory isn't complete, but I've only really tried it for the first time today. When I figure out more, I'll post it.

jpmanson, I just don't think you tried this with an open mind at all. Try listening to is totally unbiased, as if you were putting Lateralus in for the first time. Try downloading something to overlap the songs with, like Cool Edit Pro or something.
And there is a parabola in the golden spiral for gods sake.
http://www.angelfire.com/art2/gaia/lateralus
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Old 01-23-2004, 07:25 PM   #22
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Re: lateralus as a holy gift

Quote:
Originally Posted by MORNING_GLORY
jpmanson, I just don't think you tried this with an open mind at all. Try listening to is totally unbiased, as if you were putting Lateralus in for the first time. Try downloading something to overlap the songs with, like Cool Edit Pro or something.
And there is a parabola in the golden spiral for gods sake.
http://www.angelfire.com/art2/gaia/lateralus
actually, i did listen to this track listing a coupple years ago, i was very excited over it at the time, thought it was the coolest idea.. but then i started listening to it a bit more and thinking that it really didnt work as well as the original track listing. especially not with d/r/t.

anyway, that is not a parabola in the golden section. each part of the golden spiral is actually a quarter of a circle. a parabola and a circle are kinda related in teh fact that both are conic sections. but they are not the same at all. and that "parabola" you are seeing is just a semicircle.

if they were the same, then you could solve this equation to the point of getting somethign like 0=0 or x=x

x^2 - 1=-(1-x^2)^(1/2)
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Old 01-24-2004, 11:07 AM   #23
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Re: lateralus as a holy gift

Track 11 is track 11 on both track lists; Reflection.
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Old 01-24-2004, 11:17 AM   #24
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Re: lateralus as a holy gift

Quote:
Originally Posted by Odibilëph
Track 11 is track 11 on both track lists; Reflection.
OH MY GOD!!!!11 youve found the ultimate meaning behind ænima and lateralus!!!!1 jimmy is actually about reflection! oh my god!!!!!11
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Old 01-26-2004, 07:18 PM   #25
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Re: lateralus as a holy gift

it seems like someone needs a nap....
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Old 01-26-2004, 07:18 PM   #26
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Re: lateralus as a holy gift

it seems like someone needs a nap....
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Old 02-16-2004, 12:09 PM   #27
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Re: lateralus as a holy gift

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Very interesting read indeed.

Wow... this was a gay waste of my first post. Maybe I shouldn't post it.

......Too late, my mouse is already over the button.
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Old 09-06-2014, 10:46 AM   #28
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Re: lateralus as a holy gift

i know this is an old thread but i just listened to the "Holy Gift " mix of lateralus in Dolby Digital 5.1 .

and although i do not really buy into the whole concept it is an incredible remix of one of my favorite albums and very enjoyable to listen to ,

so i will not validate the theory behind this remix it is definitely worth having.
but i think whoever thought this up and spent so much time on a project like this does get my thanks for taking the time to do this .

it makes me glad that there are people out there with more time on their hands than me
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Old 09-18-2014, 08:07 PM   #29
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Re: lateralus as a holy gift

The correct order is 6 7 10 3 8 11 1 4 12 2 9 5 13 If you would like to know why that is go here https://toolnavy.com/showthread.php?t=126706 and all the albums have secret track lists
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