Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
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Originally Posted by MrMcPheezy
Ok, so what I'm really arguing against here is the idea that people can comment on the quality of music with no basis other than their own emotional reaction to it. The idea that no knowledge of music is needed comment on the quality of music.
You're arguing a problem that was not present in this thread, but you don't seem terribly interested in understanding that.
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I mean come on. Doesn't it bother you when you hear high school emo idiots saying that good charlotte is the best band ever?
Not any more than the lady down the street who thinks the only thing worth listening to is Elvis and Frank Sinatra.
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Who cares whether or not those high school emo idiots have an emotional connection to it or enjoy hearing it: the music good charlotte writes is still crap.
... In your opinion.
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That's the mindset I'm attempting to attack here. [...]
A clear indication that you have too much time on your hands. ;)
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
Lateralus>Aenima>>>Opiate>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>Undertow
While I like stuff on it like Swamp Song and Prision Sex, it has never really grasped me and held me by the balls in awe like Lat, Aen, or even to a lesser extent Opiate have.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
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Originally Posted by MrMcPheezy
So no one is better at anything artistic than anyone else? Improvement in the realm of art is not possible?
It's relative to each person. Some claim The Downward Spiral is the greatest album in the last 20 years while others see it as nothing more than abunch of random noise and a guy screaming about fucking you like an animal.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
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Originally Posted by CaliCrackDealer
You are correct sir. Undertow is their most basic, visceral album, without all the (sorry to say it) prog rock excesses that started creeping in on AEnima and became fully ensconced on Lateralus. I don't think AEnima or Lateralus are bad albums, it's just that they are too self-concious and attempt to keep the listener too far away from a real expression of feeling; rather, they get lost in details.
Time will likely prove Undertow to be their most remembered contribution by fans.
hallelujah. Undertow just hits me in the chest. It thumps and grumbles and whimpers and plays so beautifully near the edge of prog but it never aims to be 'clever'. I can feel so much to this album (and opiate to an extent). The others I find myself 'THINKING oh that's really cool but it has never felt the same. Nothing at all or in any way against Justin, he's great, but I think Paul has a lot to do with this. He played bass like a bass player (along with the drummer). Justin plays like a second guitar player. All tool is quite outstanding but this is the disc I want to be buried with.
but yes it's all personal taste and yes all this talk was completely pointless and no you can't quantify art and yes I really should find something better to do.
Last edited by RidetheRedshift; 11-09-2005 at 03:54 PM..
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
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Originally Posted by Chris_Brightwell
You're still enforcing some objective measure of artistic quality, which I neither adopt nor agree with.
Answer the question.
Is it possbile for artists to improve?
The frame of mind you seem to be pushing implies that it is not. It implies that, so long as you like your work, that's all that matters. As long as you feel the art you produce is good, any effort to improve would be futile. The whole idea of improving implies that there is some means by which to measure the quality of that which is produced. To say that such measurment is impossible is to say that improvement is impossible. Your frame of mind seems to imply that it is only possible to become more and more pleased with your work, and more: that that's all that matters.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
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Originally Posted by MrMcPheezy
Answer the question.
To do so is to adopt your scale of objective measure, which I will not do.
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Is it possbile for artists to improve?
Sure, even that improvement is relative. Artists are only as good as the audience (artist/author included) makes them out to be.
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The frame of mind you seem to be pushing implies that it is not. It implies that, so long as you like your work, that's all that matters.
And you disagree? How many artists do what they do for anyone other than themselves?
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As long as you feel the art you produce is good, any effort to improve would be futile.
I wouldn't go that far, but your black and white vision seems to insist.
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The whole idea of improving implies that there is some means by which to measure the quality of that which is produced. To say that such measurment is impossible is to say that improvement is impossible. Your frame of mind seems to imply that it is only possible to become more and more pleased with your work, and more: that that's all that matters.
I really wish I had an eraser to obliterate these lines you've drawn in the sand.
You can measure the "improvement" of an artist by the numbers of its fanbase, but that's not really a justly objective measure. Look at Led Zeppelin. They will never release another album, but their fanbase will continue to grow. On the other hand, you can look at a band like New Kids on the Block, who may feel they have grown as artists, but their fanbase is basically zero.
Does not having fans make you a bad artist? No. Does having fans make you a better one? Hardly. Does a growing fanbase serve as a fair measure for your improvement as an artist? Maybe.
This is not a black and white issue, but you insist on making it one. As long as you play that game, you and I are never going to see eye to eye on this.
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I find this mindset somewhat disturbing.
Personally, I take that as a direct personal insult. I've respected your opinion here, regardless of how vividly I may disagree with it, and you can do nothing more than call my opinion/perspective disturbing.
If that's all you're interested in doing, I'll be happy to lock this thread and move on.
If nothing is everything I've got it all (tdn $upporter)
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Location: Houston, TX
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Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
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Originally Posted by RidetheRedshift
hallelujah. Undertow just hits me in the chest. It thumps and grumbles and whimpers and plays so beautifully near the edge of prog but it never aims to be 'clever'. I can feel so much to this album (and opiate to an extent). The others I find myself 'THINKING oh that's really cool but it has never felt the same. Nothing at all or in any way against Justin, he's great, but I think Paul has a lot to do with this. He played bass like a bass player (along with the drummer). Justin plays like a second guitar player. All tool is quite outstanding but this is the disc I want to be buried with.
but yes it's all personal taste and yes all this talk was completely pointless and no you can't quantify art and yes I really should find something better to do.
I wonder if people our age mainly think that Undertow is the best, and those younger think AEnima or Lateralus is best. Or if maybe it has to do with when you were first exposed to the music, in my case being an OGT and seeing them on tour for Opiate.
__________________ Let us now, as Futurists, enter one of these hospitals for anaemic sounds. There: the first bar brings the boredom of familiarity to your ear and anticipates the boredom of the bar to follow. Let us relish, from bar to bar, two or three varieties of genuine boredom, waiting all the while for the extraordinary sensation that never comes.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
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Originally Posted by pornstarchampion
It's relative to each person. Some claim The Downward Spiral is the greatest album in the last 20 years while others see it as nothing more than abunch of random noise and a guy screaming about fucking you like an animal.
That is what I hear. I don't see how anyone could like NIN. At the same time I don't consider my opinion worth much more than what my ears tell me to say.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
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Originally Posted by Chris_Brightwell
Artists are only as good as the audience (artist/author included) makes them out to be.
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Originally Posted by Chris_Brightwell
Does not having fans make you a bad artist? No. Does having fans make you a better one? Hardly.
Is this not a contradiction?
If having fans does not inherently make you a good artist, then what does?
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Originally Posted by Chris_Brightwell
Personally, I take that as a direct personal insult. I've respected your opinion here, regardless of how vividly I may disagree with it, and you can do nothing more than call my opinion/perspective disturbing.
If that's all you're interested in doing, I'll be happy to lock this thread and move on.
I do find it disturbing, in that I feel it promotes acceptance of ignorance toward music. I'm not trying to be disrespectful. I am enjoying the conversation we're having.
It's just that the point of view you're pushing scares me a little. I've met too many people who have rejected the idea of understanding art (I've actually been ridiculed for taking writing classes) and while I don't think your point is as bad as that, I do think that both are along similar lines.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
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Originally Posted by MrMcPheezy
I do find it disturbing, in that I feel it promotes acceptance of ignorance toward music. I'm not trying to be disrespectful. I am enjoying the conversation we're having.
It's just that the point of view you're pushing scares me a little. I've met too many people who have rejected the idea of understanding art (I've actually been ridiculed for taking writing classes) and while I don't think your point is as bad as that, I do think that both are along similar lines.
OK, we're done here.
This thread has reached the point of no return. You didn't win this, I just refuse to continue this discussion when, clearly, we are not going to reach any sort of resolution.
If nothing is everything I've got it all (tdn $upporter)
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Houston, TX
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Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
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Originally Posted by Chris_Brightwell
I bet you're one of those people who love Thomas Kinkaide and hate abstract art.
Am I right?
Oh God, Thomas Kinkade is the tripe of tripe. Glad you mentioned abstract art, for the most part it's my favorite, especially minimalists, but that's another thread.......
__________________ Let us now, as Futurists, enter one of these hospitals for anaemic sounds. There: the first bar brings the boredom of familiarity to your ear and anticipates the boredom of the bar to follow. Let us relish, from bar to bar, two or three varieties of genuine boredom, waiting all the while for the extraordinary sensation that never comes.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
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Originally Posted by Chris_Brightwell
OK, we're done here.
This thread has reached the point of no return. You didn't win this, I just refuse to continue this discussion when, clearly, we are not going to reach any sort of resolution.
Ok, that's fine.
I hope you don't lock the thread though, as I'm actually making some progress with rockfan7.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
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Originally Posted by Chris_Brightwell
I've respected your opinion here, regardless of how vividly I may disagree with it, and you can do nothing more than call my opinion/perspective disturbing.
Another thought.
I've done much more than call you perspective disturbing. I've discussed it with you. I can't think of any other way of showing respect for one's thoughts than to pit theirs against my own. I've done more than just read what you've written, I've taken what you've said and challenged my own views. I seriously can't think of any better way to respect the thoughts of another than to say that they worth considering and perhaps worth attacking with my own. Apologies if I offended you or something.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
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Originally Posted by MrMcPheezy
What makes those bands better than dream theater?
Hmm... They're not boring? They don't compromise a song's structure for the sole purpose of shredding. They do new things instead of rehashing the same old scales. They push the boundaries of what is considered acceptable melody or structure.
I just don't think you can say any band is objectively "better" than any other band. You can say that Dream Theater is better "technically" than a lot of other bands, but technicality just makes up one small part of music.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
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Originally Posted by rockfan7
Hmm... They're not boring? They don't compromise a song's structure for the sole purpose of shredding. They do new things instead of rehashing the same old scales. They push the boundaries of what is considered acceptable melody or structure.
I just don't think you can say any band is objectively "better" than any other band. You can say that Dream Theater is better "technically" than a lot of other bands, but technicality just makes up one small part of music.
Exactly. You're inadvertantly arguing my point to some extent.
Technical ability is one objective aspect that can be used to judge the quality of music. Creativity, which you mentioned, is another. Can you think of any others?
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
Oh yeah, for the record I think that there are objective measures to artistic quality, but how much importance one places on each measure is subjective, it varies from person to person and that's just fine. A world where art is completely objective would be fucking boring, because I wouldn't be able to shit on people for liking dumb artists.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
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Originally Posted by MrMcPheezy
Exactly. You're inadvertantly arguing my point to some extent.
Technical ability is one objective aspect that can be used to judge the quality of music. Creativity, which you mentioned, is another. Can you think of any others?
What I'm saying is that technical ability doesn't make music good or bad. Dream Theater is absolute shit. Some of the simplest music out there is the best (minimalist ambient is one example).
