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Old 11-27-2002, 05:15 AM   #1
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FIGHT CLUB vs. ĆNIMA (don't read unless you saw the movie!!!)

FIGHT CLUB vs. ĆNIMA

DON'T READ THIS IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN IT YET OR IT WILL RUIN THE ENDING

First of all, I’m not saying this is a case like Pink Floyd where they recorded ‘Dark Side of the Moon’ to match ‘The Wizard of Oz’, but this is my favorite album and my favorite movie of the 90’s, and one day I started noticing some strange coincidences. I thought you might be entertained to say the least if I shared them with you. I still haven’t watched Fight Club with the sound off and Ćnima playing in the background, but it is something I will try one day.

The movie ‘Fight Club’ and the album Ćnima are totally different, yet eerily very similar if you look at the philosophies of Carl Jung. Jung separated the psyche of a person into 3 parts. The conscious mind, and the subconscious mind which is made up of the anima and the shadow. This theory has been interpreted as the devil on one shoulder and the angel on the other, and both of these things conflict between what you want and what you need. The anima is the part of your subconscious mind that represents everything you desire yourself, and manifests itself the form of a woman. For a woman, this part of the psyche takes the form of a man and it is called the animus. When you see qualities in another person, man or woman, which are similar to the qualities of your anima you are subconsciously attracted to them, not just on a physical level, but spiritually, mentally and emotionally. the other part of a man’s subconscious is called the shadow. The shadow represents everything about you that you loathe and hate about yourself. When you see people with these qualities, you generally do not like them. This explains why many people do not get along with people who are just like them. You might have 2 common friends of yours or relatives that are so much alike, they conflict and neither one can really see it, but it is obvious to someone who looks at that relationship from an unprejudiced eye. This is very apparent in people who have to get the last word in. If you take two of them, every conversation will lead to an argument. Subconsciously we want to be around people who are different, but now completely different than us so we can learn and teach from them. WARNING: If you haven’t seen Fight club yet, go rent it and watch it before reading the rest of this as it will spoil the ending. In the movie fight club, ‘Jack’ (Ed Norton) is a troubled man who’s subconscious psyche is staring to take over (my shadow’s shedding skin). Jack is so screwed up that his subconscious psyche is reversed and his anima is a male named Tyler Durden. Jack is probably a closet homosexual because he feels sick when he thinks of the possibility of sex wit a woman “I am Jack’s raging bile duct” and his conversations with Tyler “We’re a generation of men raised by women, I’m wondering if another woman is what we need”. Tyler is everything Jack wants to be and wishes he was. Tyler can do things that Jack can only dream of like be a leader, think for himself, leave his world of meaninglessness. Tyler tells Jack that we work all day at jobs we hate to buy things we don’t need. “Like everyone else, I had become a slave to the IKEA nesting instinct.” (sort of like the kid from ‘Hooker with a Penis’ who spent all his money on Levi’s, Coca-Cola, Vans, and has become a walking poster for the commercialization of america and is blaming maynard for selling out). The basis of Tyler’s theory is that we all start over and stop trying to be perfect. By starting over he wants to destroy all the records of the credit card companies so everyone begins again at zero. This theory is very similar to the song ‘Ćnema’ which wants to flush it all away, getting rid of all the corporate bullshit metaphored in the city of Los Angeles. In the movie and the novel by Chuck Palahnuik, Marla Singer is a real person, but after reading Carl Jung, I like to look at her as another part of Jack’s psyche. Jack despises Marla because she is everything that he hates about himself...’a faker’. “Her lie reflected my lie”. Jack meets Marla at one of his self help seminars that he goes to so he can cry (look up Lacyromology - it’s in the liner notes to Ćnima) so he can sleep. He becomes addicted to going and can’t sleep without it. I believe that Marla Singer is Jack’s shadow. Look at the first lines of the movie “how you always hurt the ones you love, it goes both ways” and “this all had something to do with a girl named marla singer”.

some strange parallels with the “quotes from Fight Club” and (the lyrics to ćnima)
“Then... something happened.... (something has to change)
...I was lost in oblivion -- dark and silent and complete... (undeniable dilemma).
...I found freedom. Losing all hope was freedom. Babies don't sleep this well. I became addicted.” (It's not enough.I need more. Nothing seems to satisfy.)

“I don't want to die without any scars. How much can you really know about yourself if you've never been in a fight?” (To feel, to breathe, to know I'm alive.)

“This is a chemical burn. It will hurt more than you've ever been burned and you will have a scar.” (This may hurt a little but it's something you'll get used to.) -
“Guided meditation worked for cancer, it could work for this.I was going to my cave to find my power animal.” (Relax. Slip away.)
“Stop it. This is your pain -- your burning hand. It's right here. Look at it”.(Turn around and take my hand.)

“then, just like that, Tyler was gone” (He had a lot to say. He had a lot of nothing to say. We'll miss him.)

“Fuck Martha Stewart!... (Fuck retro anything... Fuck your tattoos... etc.)
...She’s polishing the brass on the titanic, it’s all going down” (Flush it down, suck it down)

“I had it all. Even the glass dishes with tiny bubbles and imperfections, proof they were crafted by the honest, simple, hard-working indigenous peoples of wherever.” (wearing vans 501’s and a dope beastie tee nipple rings new tattoos)

when Tyler shows up in Jack’s hotel room (So good to see you once again. I thought that you were hiding. And you thought that I had run away. Chasing the tail of dogma)

“You give up the condo life, give up all your worldly possessions and go live in a dilapidated house in the toxic waste part of town (Fret for your figure and Fret for your latte and Fret for your hairpiece and Fret for your lawsuit and Fret for your prozac and Fret for your pilot and Fret for your contract and Fret for your car.)

the ending scene where Jack shoots himself in the face to kill Tyler (Just remember I will always love you Even as I tear your fucking throat away It will end no other way.)
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Old 11-27-2002, 09:47 AM   #2
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wow, i'm impressed, eventhough Fight Club is one of my all time favorite movies (i even have it in DVD) and Ćnima is my favorite Tool cd, i never related both in any way... after reading your post i think that unconsciously i like one because of the other, it makes sense right? you know how sometimes you like something so much and you can't explain why? well i guess you gave me an answer to that...

I will watch the movie with more detail and maybe i can come up with more Ćnima related things to add to yours. All in all you raise a good point, you posted one of the most interesting thoughts on this board, i guess you did think for yourself he he he...

Is it possible then, that David Fincher was inspired by ćnima for this movie?
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Old 11-27-2002, 09:47 AM   #3
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Hm

you make a couple good points BUT, these songs and occurences are out of order. You make a great connection but its just not in-sync with teh movie or album, awesome job though!

Last edited by ProfoundHaytred; 11-27-2002 at 09:50 AM..
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Old 11-27-2002, 12:12 PM   #4
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i am a rabid fan of both tool and chuck palahniuk..

the one thing you forgot to mention, which is the most striking connection is that the book fight club and the album ćnima were both released in the same year, 1996.

so rather than either one directly influincing the other i say that they both reflect the collective unconscious of the time. the zeitgeist if you will.

i actually wrote a rather apocolyptic poem once that had a lot to do with tyler's vision of a perfect world (imagine yourself stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of rockerfeller center) and i just remebered i threw a maynard quote in there.
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Old 11-27-2002, 02:01 PM   #5
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this all col stuff and all and some very iintresting points, but just like dark side of the rainbow thing, its just all an accident. plus just because these points sound like they belong together, doesn't mean they do. but whom i to say anything.
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Old 11-27-2002, 02:20 PM   #6
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Just to clarify some of the Jungian ideas - the mind was seperated into two parts (not just by Jung but many other pscyhologicts), and Jung defined the architypes of the unconsious, two of the main being the amina/animus (depending on whether you are male/female), and the shadow. There are others, but these are two of the main ones, especially when dealing with the understanding of the Self (the concious + unconsious).
Also, the anema and shadow both represent repressed ideas - the shadow the negative thoughts and instincts we have, and the anima/animus the represed female/male side our personalitys (which is why they are contained in the unconcious).
The phenomen of 'projection' is when the anima/animus is projected onto another person. The Shadow was considered by Jung easier to 'access' on one's own, but hte anima/animus was repressed much deeper. Because the anima/animus is the represssed opposite-gender thoughts of our minds, when it is projected onto another person, you may feel negitivly towards that person, as Jung put it "You couldn't stand to be in the same room with them for more than five minutes".
So more likley the overly powerful Shadow of Jack become Tyler, an extreme form of projection.

All of this is taken from Carl Jungs "Aion", including the quote, btw.

Good point about the lacyromology. I never thought of that. But thats exacly what it was, really.
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Old 11-28-2002, 05:28 AM   #7
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Great points and way to think for yourself and on the discovery of these synchronicities. I love this movie, and the album, I noticed something was left out of the quotes you found. I agree that these quotes are related in some way, but I think you've left a quote out.

Fight Club Quote: " You are not the car you drive, you are not the contents of your wallet, you are not how muh you have in the bank, your not your fu**ing khakis. "

Related Tool Quote: " Fret for your figure and fret for your latte........ "

Just something I noticed was also related.

Last edited by mike tyson; 11-28-2002 at 05:31 AM..
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Old 11-28-2002, 08:48 PM   #8
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what about intermission?...
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Old 11-28-2002, 08:53 PM   #9
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straight up... no.
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Old 11-29-2002, 04:02 AM   #10
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yeah

well i think you will find that Chuck Palaniuk (author of Fight Club) shares many similar beliefs with Tool and also several other people including people like Bill Hicks (who's work is sampled in Third Eye).

I think that the authors and performers just share a similar pattern of thought, i myself also believe in the messages that these artists/writers put out against corporations and the way society has evolved.

well observed tho :)
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Old 11-30-2002, 10:48 AM   #11
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yeah, I'm just not seeing it..I mean certainly the filmmakers and TOOL could follow the same philosophies and in that way they probably manifest themselves in each other, but that doesn't mean Fight Club was inspired by Aenima, and through logic it would seem that Aenima wasn't inspired a great deal by Fight Club...

so, i concur with a previous poster with a straight up...no
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Old 12-01-2002, 08:28 PM   #12
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great idea. ive thought something like this before, except i saw Marla as the anima (at least towards the end of the movie). part of the narrator's (Jack) anger towards Marla is jealousy that Tyler likes her better. ("At least she's trying to hit bottom")
also, the ending makes more sense when thinking of Marla as the anima. by finding his anima and embracing it, the narrator is becoming complete (according to Jung) by being of both the masculine and feminine psyche.
Tyler could also be seen as the Id of Freudian psychology, the place of unihibited aggressive, destructive, and sexual urges.

also, to those naysayers who believe that there isn't any possible inspiration of one to the other, the novel Fight Club obviously came out before the movie, although i'm not sure exactly when. but they are both obviously working off the same basis (Jungian theory), so maybe they are merely working of the same source material.

another thought i had, which has only a little relevance to this, is the simularity between a line in H. ("I have died. I will die. I don't mind.") and the story "Slaughterhouse 5" by Kurt Vonnegut, who is an influence on Palahniuk, the author of Fight Club (one of his essays talks about the authors he likes, you can find this on his website http://www.chuckpalahniuk.net/ ). in "Slaughterhouse 5," the main character, Billy Pilgrim, can travel to any moment in his life. although he has died, and he will die, he doesn't mind. he believes that he cannot change his future because it has already happened and it will happen. metaphorically this is the inability of people to avoid past mistakes from reuccuring due to ignorance that they can change things.
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Old 12-02-2002, 06:09 AM   #13
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some follow ups

that's strange, but I totally missed that the book fight club and the album ćnima were both released in 1996.

It must be that collective unconscious of the time, like you said. I believe in Plato's theory of the preexistence of ideas, that all ideas are in every living thing already. If you look at Einstein's theories that energy cannot be created or destroyed, combine that with Plato's theory and the fact that memories are electric impulses; could it not be conceivable then that ideas are merely memories we have not tapped into yet in the realm of the 10-12% of our 'active' mind?. There is also the learning curve to consider, the fact that every new idea, invention and discovery sparks hundreds or thousands of others. For example, Edison's invention of the light bulb made not only reading at night possible, but driving at night and baseball at night and the light insice the microwave oven, even though things like cars, baseball and microwave ovens did not exist yet in Edison's time. It may be safe to say then that the 46&2 theory of the next genetic mutation may take place as our minds are capable of holding more than the alotted 12%. I personally think that we will become so dependent on wireless technology and communications that if there ever is a technological disaster, say 300 years from now, some humans will be 'naturally selected' to genetically adapt and learn or relearn telepathy.

In reading your post I also cannot believe that I didn't notice until now, but the most poetic piece of both the movie and the album is WHISPERED:
In the world I see -- you're stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You will wear leather clothes that last you the rest of your life. You will climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. You will see tiny figures pounding corn and laying-strips of venison on the empty car pool lane of the ruins of a superhighway.

Shroud-ing all the ground around me
Is this holy crow above me.
Black as holes within a memory
And blue as our new second sun.
I stick my hand into his shadow
To pull the pieces from the sand.
Which I attempt to reassemble
To see just who I might have been.
I do not recognize the vessel,
But the eyes seem so familiar.
Like phosphorescent desert buttons
Singing one familiar song...

btw... post your poem, I'd like to read it.
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Old 12-02-2002, 10:16 AM   #14
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upon soul_excursion's request

if you liked the movie fight club i highly recommend the book, as well as chuck's other novels (survivor(nothing to do with the shitty tv show!!), invisible monsters, choke, and lullaby). the book is different, sorta more in depth, different ending too. my favorite part of the book is that tyler's vision is alot longer. i pitted soome of my own words against the word's from the book in the following poem. all words in italics are chuck's words. i met chuck once and gave him the poem and he called me plagurist. i think he was joking but he never got back to me to let me know what he thoght. i suppose he's a busy man.


Carrion and Ash (Tyler's Poem)

"Imagine yourself..."- Chuck Palahniuk


I.

The sun used to be a god.
Now it causes cancer.
And we put up umbrellas
And smooth on lotions.

The moon used to be a goddess
And soon we will colonize her.
Raping her pristine whiteness.
Invading her virginity with space stations
And eventually theme parks and shopping malls.

The sky used to be a limit.
Now our buildings scrape her.
And she bleeds and cries.

Imagine yourself stalking elk
Through the damp canyon forests
That surround the ruins of Rockefeller Center.



II.

Business men who get their hair cut before
twice a month
And moms who want their children
To be little adults
Clutter and suffocate
Shopping malls.

Imagine yourself wearing leather clothes
That will last the rest of your life


People behind a desk decide
Which methods of self destruction and escape
Are acceptable.
Police officers are drinking beer and masturbating
After a hard day of eradicating the female hemp population.
The E! channel decides what will make people happy.

Imagine yourself planting radishes
And seed potatoes
On the 15th hole of some forgotten
Golf course.


And the kid who
just pumped your gas
just mowed your yard
just served you your food
Is eating peyote buttons
In his piss-hole apartment.
And he imagines himself
As free floating energy
Trapped in a skeletal prison.
Doomed to die again and again
Only to root himself back down
In Earth's soil.

We'll paint the skyscrapers
With totem faces
And goblin tikis.



III.

A rusting spiral
Plummeting deeper into
Humid darkness.

"One great big festering neon distraction"


IV.


The wolves and the jackal will
Reclaim their lands.
Their lupine eyes glowing like embers and ash.
They will trot amongst the
Burnt dwellings.
Their tongues hanging and that
Slight wicked smile
Will crack up the sides of their mouths.
Coyote and foxes,
Wolves and jackal,
Crows and condor,
Reveling
In the carrion and ash.

Imagine yourself climbing
The wrist thick kudzu vines
That wrap the Sears Tower.
You'll climb through the dripping forest canopy,
Jack and the Beanstalk,
The air will be so clean
That when you look down
You'll see tiny figures pounding corn
And laying strips of venison to dry
In the empty car pool lanes
Of some abandoned superhighway;
Eight lanes wide and August-hot



-okkoto

comments more than welcome
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Last edited by okkoto; 12-02-2002 at 10:40 AM..
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Old 12-02-2002, 12:10 PM   #15
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Re: upon soul_excursion's request

okkoto

thanks.. that's a pretty cool poem... i like the 'reveling in carrion and ash' line.

i went to chuck's site (from your link) and noticed that the cover art for CHOKE (which incidentally is the last word in the song 'Ticks and Leeches') is strangely similiar to the Alex Grey artwork for the cover of Lateralus... if this book is even remotely like Lateralus, I'm gonna pick it up (as well as the other books!)

~soul_excursion
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Old 12-02-2002, 07:22 PM   #16
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dude lets not get crazy with the palahniuk/tool connections. all of chuck's books have the same kind of dark humor and brilliant social commentary that fight club has and the same kind of dark fucked up narration that denis johnson has. so chances are of you like fight club you will like all of chuck's books.

choke's cover is a standard anatomy picture of some guy. alex grey is a visionary artist that is tyring to combine western and eastern ideas of the body and consciousness and evolution. i actually met alex grey too. chuck and alex are two very different people.
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Old 12-02-2002, 08:47 PM   #17
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on preexistance of ideas/conservation of mass

on theory that goes along with soul_excursion's idea of the combination of preexisting ideas and Einstein's law of conservation of mass is Carl Jung's theory of the collective unconscious, a part of the mind present in all people that is responsible for archetypes (symbols and associations such as in dreams). also something to note is the theory present in AEnima that "all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration."

by the way, i like okkoto's poem. good parallel between durden quotes and original stanzas.
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Old 12-03-2002, 11:14 AM   #18
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ehhe

all very nice, but lachrymology is fake. i guess that doesn't mean one can't follow it, but i was just saying. anyway, i think those are great points, but some of those quotes seem to be a little forced....
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Old 12-03-2002, 08:19 PM   #19
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thats a great poem, okkoto. love love love it. i wish i could write something like that...

fight club and aenima do seem to have similar philosophies, and i attribute these kinds of similiarities to just being shared philosophies, stuff thats in the collective consciousness, ideas that are just brewing within us that eventually get released. its like the hundredth monkey thing, i think. its like we have antennae that pick up signals from within that shared consciousness.
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Old 12-03-2002, 09:24 PM   #20
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Fight club vs.

I am also a huge fan of Fight Club. Goes without saying (but I'll say it anyway) Aenima as well.

You just made my day S.E. That is a righteous observation!
I already told someone else the idea. I'm sure I will share it with others. Very cool to read that.

OK, heres one for ya: Ever notice how you can listen to Aenima over and over and ...ya know. Then you notice it has been in your C.D. player for like two weeks solid. There is an entire other subject on the brilliance of the way the whole album IS. I have never been able to listen to anything for quite so long and still really enjoy all of it. MY POINT: For me, Fight Club has a similar ablility to 'entertain me' if you will. I tend to be able to enjoy the movie whenever it happens to be on. MUCH shallower (less deep) opinion, but I had to say something in respect of that great thread. Good job.

also ---"Fret for your figure"----'Bob has bitch tits'
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Old 12-04-2002, 04:06 PM   #21
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i see where you guys are coming from. Fight Club is my favourite movie, and Aenima my second favourite album (lateralus first...) but I have never considered any of these ideas.

Regarding that guy (forgot username) who quoted Einstein, Plato and the history of invention - i adhere to Terence McKenna's 'End Of Novelty' idea. He saw acid as an accelerator of novelty and invention in the DNA coding (similar to Bill Hick's monkeys eat shrooms/man on the moon theory - drugs facilitate evolution).

Technology is increasing and evolving at an ever faster rate every year (as Tim Leary said - see Aenima liner notes - every time a Futant pushes the boudaries of technology, the whole species evolves).

For the majority of 'modern' civilisation, people have travelled by horse and cart. the steam engine was invented in the early 19th century, followed by the industrial revolution, the advent of the internal combustion engine, radio, TV, computers, the microchip, the internet (an astounding development in collective consciousness) and now all these things are getting smaller and smaller, quicker and quicker.

McKenna's theory states that as consciousness evolves, the DNA coil winds tighter and tighter, speeding up as we invent more new things. soon novelty will occur so rapidly that it will become impossible. This will begin a whole new epoch of existence with the most advanced species on the planet having advanced as far and as fast as possible.

This is set to occur at towards the end of 2012 (coincidentally or not, the end of the Mayan calendar) and at the rate of technological advance described above, seems pretty likely.

All of the above is just a collection of information i've gathered - the connections between which i only realised as i typed this Not really related to the topic but worth a read anyway.

Correct anything i've got wrong as I've only read McKenna in passing, but I think you'll find it's a pretty logical/scary idea.

Hold on to your hats...
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Old 12-06-2002, 09:27 AM   #22
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Re: FIGHT CLUB vs. ĆNIMA (don't read unless you saw the movie!!!)

Reading the first post of the thread I was sooo expecting relating H. the dual personality aspect of the film.
"I am too connected to you to/Slip away, to fade away."
or H. with the scene where Tyler tests Jack to see if he's ready to die.
"My fear begins to fade/Recalling all of the times/I have died/and will die./It's all right./I don't mind."
This is farfetched but Message to Harry Manback has some similarities with the film as well.
When Tyler tells Jack to hit him.
"I [don't have the] courage to kick your ass directly."
When Project Mayhem starts up and Jack and Tyler reject people.
"Hm? You think you're cool, right? Hm? Hm? When you kicked out people [out of] your house"
Jack's job involving car accidents
"You know you're gonna have another accident?"
Marla/ Bob (the guy with bitchtits)
"You're gonna die outta cancer, I promise."

I have to go to class now and I probably won't get beck online today. but This is tons a fun and I want to do some more.
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Old 12-07-2002, 08:53 PM   #23
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interesting parallels drawn between jungian theory and fight club. coincedences between Ćnima lyrics and Fight Club lines, however, i think not....
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Old 12-09-2002, 07:35 PM   #24
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it is an interesting theory, but i do not find it very strong. fight club is by far my favorite move, i have the extended 2 disc dvd, and have probablly seen it over 50 times. i could probably ramble off any particular quote to you at any given time - my favorite being (( fuck damnnation man, fuck redemption! if we are god's unwanted children....... so be it!! )) Also, tool is by far my favorite band. (as i am posting on this board.) however most of the comparisons are totally by chance. i believe there is a reason this book / movie and amazing music seem connected however. it is because they think the same. one of fight club's main messages was to throw away your crap earthly posessions and live a simplier life. ( "the things you own end up owning you" ) quoting maynard live in milwaukee "think for yourself, question authority (and yes i know its a timothy leary quote). this is just one example of many i could list for you, if only i had the time. the reason these 2 seem connected is because they are both using more of the brain, thinking just a little differently. and that is why they are spectacular.
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Old 12-10-2002, 12:57 PM   #25
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My wife has that book. Ive seen the cover, it is biological in the nature of the art, but havent peeped it yet. she says its about sexual addictions.
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Old 12-14-2002, 04:48 AM   #26
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Fight Club vs. ĆNIMA

I wish i had found this forum sooner.

Unfortunately I haven't thoroughly researched the works and theories of Plato, Jung, Hicks, McKenna, and Leary to the point where i could quote and debate them...

so i'll add the best i can at 4:50am

I've had the ĆNIMA album for years and only began to read between the lines a couple years ago.

I can say i love this album because of it's epic tour through that what makes humans human. emotions. Then delving deeper into understanding what craetes emotions. The ability to understand a tear, is a feeling, is a chemicle, is matter condensed into a slow vibration. (perhaps this was discovered more clearly in Lateralus)

This sort of self understanding and self awareness is quite liberating and to say the least: that knowledge is motivating. ĆNIMA motives me to live as hard and as passionate as my body will allow me to. To live, to create, to fuck, to destroy,...
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Old 12-14-2002, 04:49 AM   #27
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Re: Fight Club vs. ĆNIMA

... This also goes with other forms of motivation.

Music is educating to me. As are books. As are movies.

Fight Club had values and ideas that i had only thought upon in the back of my mind. Mischief, Mayhem, Soap. I'll admit i saw the movie long before i read the book (and others by Palahniuk). But the nihilistic and carefree ways expressed in the film were also quite refreshing and the end leaves you quite liberated and perhaps a little more self aware,

I'm not trying to compare or contrast these two pieces of work. I'm only stating the relationship I could associate them with: Art in it's most honest forms are tools. Motivating. Influential. Though provoking. Liberating.

These two pieces of work partially underline my mantra. Though there's much more context to add and build upon.

Note to self: Look into Jung, McKenna, and more Tim Leary... before 2012. eek.

knowledge = power

hi. i'm new here. i like it already.
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Old 12-15-2002, 01:13 PM   #28
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You've really done your research buddy! Color me impressed. You make a lot of good points. Most of that stuff you discussed I would of never relized in a million years. The part that I agree with you the most is Tyler being Jacks anima and Marla being his shadow. That makes a lot of sense.
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Old 12-18-2002, 04:21 AM   #29
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*clap clap* Great post soul_excursion

I would just like to say, that post is great and is exactly the reason I post on this board, to read great ideas like that. I have never though about the connections between the movie and Aenima, but I think you are right on every count.

Here is why I think it’s possible for those two sources to jive so well. I think there are many paths to enlightenment, to suit the many personality types of people out there. I think god or (what ever name you want to give to that which is, everything there is) speaks to us through many ways. You can hear the path to enlightenment in song, a movie, listening to stream, in science class, or any way you can imagine. However, you only hear it when you are ready to. And the actual plan of the universe is so vast, that you can describe it a million different ways and be exactly right every time. I think people making the best movies and music are close to attaining higher levels of consciousness, and in a sense are all describing the same thing, and hopefully, we as fans are close to spiritual evolution, and that’s why we are drawn to material such as this.

Also, I agree with the ideas of collective consciousness people, and love looking at such things in a scientific light. Our brain works through electrical impulses, every time an electrical impulse moves through anything, it emits electromagnetic waves that continue forever, never completely dying out, just decreasing in strength. Also, electric magnetic waves exert a force on a moving charge. So every time you think, that thought is projected away from you and creates a force (although small) on the axons in my brain. This are not far out ideas, this is classical physics. Could it be that we are all a part of a great consciousness, and some are more “tuned” into it than others, explaining similarities in movies and music such as this.

Couple the idea of electromagnetic waves propagating as thoughts with Einstein’s theory of special relativity, and the theories of particle/wave duality developed my many physicists. These waves are made of photons, which travel the speed of light. This means they are subject to the relativistic effects of time dilation and length contraction. So this, thought/wave feels reduced effects of time because it is traveling the speed of light, so they exist for more time. Not only that, the photons become longer, and travel over shorter distances to them (longer to you). According to this theory, some of the same electromagnetic waves produced in 95 by Maynard’s brain made aenima, exist today due to these effects. A little more far out here, but retativistic time dilation has been proven. If you dont believe this is possible, take a modern physics, truth is stranger than fiction.

ps, you inspired to read Jung as well, thanks.
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Old 12-21-2002, 01:58 AM   #30
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this is all very interesting but also taken very much out of context. i see your points, and how some things can be interpreted in a similar fashion; however, i think this is the case of us human beings finally embracing the idea of coincidence.

to tell you the truth (and i have to be perfectly honest here- it's just my opinion), i think you can find many of the "similarities" in most Hollywood products. it's a matter of storytelling and narration- from the beginning, to the end, with the necessary roleplayers and personal conflicts, etc. this is reflected in aenima and it's reflected in fight club.

it's also reflected in harry potter, born on the fourth of july, star wars and the white album. it's just art.

further, let's be frank: some of the quotes are striking, others are just plain ridiculous. i think this is a matter of searching too deep, making blanket assumptions, and stretching the thread too thin.

finally, in terms of jungian thought, you can find that everywhere. if you look hard enough, it'll be sitting there, staring blindly.

i just don't find any of this evidence to be much more than circumstantial. and what bothers me is that if it is taking to yet another level, most fans will no longer be able to follow and it will comfortably find itself as part of rock n roll lore in the future. people will believe it like they do all sorts of other conspiracies and ideas.

it will become an inaccurate historical document that cannot be changed and will forever be purported (and have the ability) to start arguments, create loyalty, and fuck over how future artists remember our time. it will become dangerous and stir even more confusion.
======

in other words, i just don't see it. if you DO, then explain it to me again, and in another way, with more objective evidence.

peace

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Old 12-22-2002, 05:29 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by greenblazepheno
this is all very interesting but also taken very much out of context. i see your points, and how some things can be interpreted in a similar fashion; however, i think this is the case of us human beings finally embracing the idea of coincidence.

to tell you the truth (and i have to be perfectly honest here- it's just my opinion), i think you can find many of the "similarities" in most Hollywood products. it's a matter of storytelling and narration- from the beginning, to the end, with the necessary roleplayers and personal conflicts, etc. this is reflected in aenima and it's reflected in fight club.

it's also reflected in harry potter, born on the fourth of july, star wars and the white album. it's just art.

further, let's be frank: some of the quotes are striking, others are just plain ridiculous. i think this is a matter of searching too deep, making blanket assumptions, and stretching the thread too thin.

finally, in terms of jungian thought, you can find that everywhere. if you look hard enough, it'll be sitting there, staring blindly.

i just don't find any of this evidence to be much more than circumstantial. and what bothers me is that if it is taking to yet another level, most fans will no longer be able to follow and it will comfortably find itself as part of rock n roll lore in the future. people will believe it like they do all sorts of other conspiracies and ideas.

it will become an inaccurate historical document that cannot be changed and will forever be purported (and have the ability) to start arguments, create loyalty, and fuck over how future artists remember our time. it will become dangerous and stir even more confusion.
======

in other words, i just don't see it. if you DO, then explain it to me again, and in another way, with more objective evidence.

peace
I think soul made it very clear in his original post that he is sure it wasnt what the band intended, that it was just what he thinks about as while he listens to Aenima. There is nothing wrong with that. If you look at the letter by maynard TDN put up as you go into the opinions page, it says most interpretations he reads are wrong.

Im sure Fight Club wanst based on Aenima. Any great work of art has dozens of ways you can interpret it. The room for interpretaion is what makes it great art. To me often times art is images or sounds that stirs up thoughts in you, and inspires you to find a personal meaning in it. If you dont see it, there is nothing wrong with that. Half the fun of a forum like is to is talk about what feelings these lyrics stir up in you. This is not a science, so the call for "objective evidence" as you put it, isnt needed. We are proving nothing here, there is no right answer. You dont like his interpretaion? Make your own, I will read both and give you props for thinking and creativity.
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Old 01-10-2003, 10:44 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by greenblazepheno
this is all very interesting but also taken very much out of context. i see your points, and how some things can be interpreted in a similar fashion; however, i think this is the case of us human beings finally embracing the idea of coincidence.

to tell you the truth (and i have to be perfectly honest here- it's just my opinion), i think you can find many of the "similarities" in most Hollywood products. it's a matter of storytelling and narration- from the beginning, to the end, with the necessary roleplayers and personal conflicts, etc. this is reflected in aenima and it's reflected in fight club.

it's also reflected in harry potter, born on the fourth of july, star wars and the white album. it's just art.

further, let's be frank: some of the quotes are striking, others are just plain ridiculous. i think this is a matter of searching too deep, making blanket assumptions, and stretching the thread too thin.

finally, in terms of jungian thought, you can find that everywhere. if you look hard enough, it'll be sitting there, staring blindly.

i just don't find any of this evidence to be much more than circumstantial. and what bothers me is that if it is taking to yet another level, most fans will no longer be able to follow and it will comfortably find itself as part of rock n roll lore in the future. people will believe it like they do all sorts of other conspiracies and ideas.

What I was going to say you pretty much summed up.

I know what the starter of this threads intentions were, but to the positive feedback thinking this may have been intended I'd like to say no.

It's natural for one to take two of his favorite things and compare the two finding similarities. I could take Lateralus and a favorite movie of mine, even re use Fight Club and if I dig deep enough like many of you did, make quotes seem related.

If you believe in something enough, you will believe there's something to it. I think that many of those quotes were forced. I mean I too could add to the list of many things that you could compare in the movie. It's just that the author and Maynard alike both display displeasure with society in their art. The whole material possessions ending up owning you has been thrown around for a long time, this isn't new.

These artists likely had similar influences. With similar views. So therefore it's shown in their work. Great thinkers think alike, and borrow from the greats before them.

For example you can take the whole Jack scene breaking down and crying in Bob's bitch tits, use a quote from that, and compare it to the whole quote from H "Under these tears now, the walls came down, as the snake is drowned, as I look in his eyes, my fear begins to fade, recalling all of the times, I could have cried then, I should have cried then." The fact that he could have cried then, but he didn't however maybe he should have and not pent it up. Well there you go, I don't really think that this was a planned effort at all.

It's interesting, and cool to see how these ideas can be so similar. But you'll find with things like this, you can often times find similarities like that if you really try hard enough. These things both deal with raw emotion, and the psyche.

Also I believe many of you are masturbating yourselves in a circle with the whole Jung analysis on this, with the collective "conscious". I don't really think you guys know enough information to be throwing that out there. I believe it is the collective unconscious. The collective unconscious thoughts of hidden desires, sexual impulses, urges, wants, needs, passions...

I'm not saying anybody's wrong, but there's really no way to truly say with definate proof that maybe Maynard and Chuck bounced ideas off each other, or their unconscious or conscious thoughts relayed off each other. Except ask Maynard, and hope it gets answered in a FAQ somewhere. About some connection to this author.

Jungs theories are very interesting, and even his theories are very similar to those of other psychologists. But he has a certain uniqueness, that got his ideas recognized, and caught the attention of artists like Maynard. Jungs whole thing on crossdressing and the fact that Maynard cross dresses on stage may be no coincidence.

I like this thread though, and like how deeply you analyzed this. Remember, Overthinking, Over-analyzing separates the body from the mind.
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Old 01-11-2003, 07:25 AM   #33
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this is my fav fight club quote:
"on a long enough time line the survival rate for everybody drops to zero."

i tried to find an ćnima quote to go along with this, but i couldn't really find a good one. maybe someone else can help me out with a quote from ćnima that will go with that quote.
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Old 01-14-2003, 05:44 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cronos

Overthinking, Over-analyzing separates the body from the mind.

Cronos, that was a great post and I really enjoyed reading it. I think you hit the nail right on the head. I didn't write the original post because I want people to think like I do. THINK FOR YOURSELF, QUESTION AUTHORITY. I just wanted to share the epitomy of an epithany (excuse my spelling) I had when all the planets seemed to line up and I was listening to aenima a lot and watching 'Fight Club' a bunch of times. I honeslty do not think there is any conscious connection at all between MJK & Chuck, excpet for the feelings of how and why the world was wrong and a jungian ideology of how to express it as art. I do belive in a collective unconscious though, that explains how different people from different parts of the world share the same thoughts. But I have one question and I don't know if it's to you or MJK himself: what's exactly so wrong with separating the body from the mind? MJK also said: "this body holding me reminds me of my own mortality, embrace this moment and remember that we are eternal, all this pain is an illusion" which tells me that there is a true separation of the body and the true reality. Hicks said (and yes I know it was part of a joke, but all humor has a ring of truth to it) "There is no such thing as death, life is only a dream and we're the imaginartion of ourselves" St. Paul wrote in the Bible: 'we are not of this earth'. how true. Dr. Wayne Dyer had a similiar quote.. I don't remember it word for word, but he said something to the effect that if oyu weigh a body the moment before and the moment after death it weighs the same. That means that whatever part of us is us is weightless, or more accurately, cannot be measured in earthly bounds. This I feel is absolute proof of another reality, where death is not a wall, but a doorway to another dimension. This theory has helped me out recently with the death of my grandfather. That and something he said on his deathbed in a moment when the pain of the cancer eating away at him was irrelevant and his alzheimer's was either in full effect or non-existant. He looked at everyone wide eyed and beaming a smile greater than any I have ever seen and said "We're all children there!!!" Wouldn't that be wonderful?

in terms of the 'on a long enough timeline the survival rate...' quote from 'Fight Club', I haven't given it much thought but I will say that Aenima seems to have a negative outlook on society as a whole: a 'this world sucks and it's all going down (so let's escape into the world of our third eye) before it all gets flushed down' message to it. lateralus seems to take the next step of the revelation of someone who has opened his third eye and seen the other side. it has the postive message of 'living your life to the fullest while you are here and accepting the pain of this earth as a gift'.. there was a quote I read somewhere where MJK was asked about drugs and he said, you shouldn't use them all the time, you should use them once and then spend the next ten years trying to get to that same place without them. that I feel is the lesson of lateralus. live life while you are here instead of trying to escape. maybe I'm answering my own quesiton...

ah well, spiral out, keep on going
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Old 01-14-2003, 06:07 AM   #35
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AWESOME THREAD!!!!!!!!

soul_excursion, I wanted to thank you for posting this. I never even thought of putting my favorite movie, and one of my favorite albums together like that. Every connection you make is dead on, and tonight when I go home I will be putting in the DVD. I have a few of my own connections that I just tossed around in my head, but I want to watch the movie again just to see how they fit.

Coincidentally, a few days ago I had posted in the favorite movies thread that I noticed a connect between Fight Club and Tool fans, and wondered what it was. It seems just about every Tool fan I know loves this movie. I think you may have stubled on a partial answer. Thanks again!! :)
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Old 01-15-2003, 06:58 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by soul_excursion



But I have one question and I don't know if it's to you or MJK himself: what's exactly so wrong with separating the body from the mind? MJK also said: "this body holding me reminds me of my own mortality, embrace this moment and remember that we are eternal, all this pain is an illusion" which tells me that there is a true separation of the body and the true reality.

it has the postive message of 'living your life to the fullest while you are here and accepting the pain of this earth as a gift'.. there was a quote I read somewhere where MJK was asked about drugs and he said, you shouldn't use them all the time, you should use them once and then spend the next ten years trying to get to that same place without them. that I feel is the lesson of lateralus. live life while you are here instead of trying to escape. maybe I'm answering my own quesiton...
I think you did answer your own question. Over-thinking, Over-analyzing, separates the body from the mind would be like saying looking at the world around you, and the people around you, and life itself, death, science theory, looking back on history, all of this. Just taking it all into perspective for yourself. It's ok to just get deep, and over-think and over-analyze these things. Saying that this is a path to enlightenment. A major theme of Lateralus is lateral thinking. When you seperate the body from the mind, you have become enlightened, and maybe have freed yourself? Opened yourself to a new way of being.

Also, the reason I think that every Tool fan seems to love Fight Club is like I said before, but in different words, the fact that the artists have a similar strain of thought of the world around them. You have subconsciously subjected yourself to both the material of each, and each has similiar understandings and beliefs on the society as a whole. You like one, so you will obviously like the other. Since you as an individual are stimiluted by that kind of thought provoking material such as Ćnima and Fight Club you have apparently come to accepting them both.
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Old 01-18-2003, 07:43 PM   #37
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Re: upon soul_excursion's request

Quote:
Originally posted by okkoto
if you liked the movie fight club i highly recommend the book, as well as chuck's other novels (survivor(nothing to do with the shitty tv show!!), invisible monsters, choke, and lullaby). the book is different, sorta more in depth, different ending too. my favorite part of the book is that tyler's vision is alot longer. i pitted soome of my own words against the word's from the book in the following poem. all words in italics are chuck's words. i met chuck once and gave him the poem and he called me plagurist. i think he was joking but he never got back to me to let me know what he thoght. i suppose he's a busy man.
Chuck Palahniuk is my favorite author. I love FC, Choke, and Invisible Monsters.

The original post:
Damn-nice observation. I never would have even thought of all that stuff being connected, since FC is one of my favorite movies and AEnema is one of my favorite CDs...makes me wanna watch the movie and listen to the CD...
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Old 01-19-2003, 05:13 AM   #38
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A Sign of the Times?

Ok, I'd first like to thank soul_excursion for noticing some of those links. It is an incredible coincidence that Jack in the film pretty much does follow exactly the concept of Lachrymology and the idea of Marla and Tyler being manifestations of part of Jack's mind is immense. It seems to fit so neatly.

People, don't get angry about this thread. No-one's suggesting that Tool conspired with the makers of Fight Club to present strong links between quotes and lyrics or whatever. Some of the links which soul_excursion presented in the original post were pretty damn loose, Just based on the fact that they aren't actually that strong, its pretty evident that the similarities are just that - coincidental similarities. They are not planned parallel's or whatever, and I'm sure that no-one thinks that the film and album can be sync'd or some shit. That would be farcical.

All that's happening is that the two camps are expressing similar ideas, and that in itself is pretty fascinating.

I haven't studied Jung or McKenna or anything like that yet so you'll have to forgive my relatively shallow reference points, but I personally believe that we are in quite an astounding art movement right now. Talented artists are becoming self-aware, and encouraging self-awareness.

I'm sorry if anyone thinks that this is pretty irrelevant, but they are just ideas which I have been thinking about a lot recently.

What triggered me thinking about this was that I heard that Brad Pitt listened to Radiohead's 'Ok Computer' constantly while Fight Club was being shot. If you think about it, that album is also expressing similar ideals to the film, and some similar ideals to Tool's work. 'Ok Computer' seems to be expressing fear and disgust about the hedonism and confinements of modern life, possibly to the point of considering the shedding of possessions, just as Jack ends up doing when he blows up his own apartment and all his possessions. You can observe the same cynicism in Computer's linear notes for example: "Jump out of bed as soon as you hear the alarm clock!! You may also find it useful spending five minutes each morning saying to yourself: 'Every day in every way I am getting better and better.' Perhaps it is a good idea to start a new day with the right frame of mind."
'Ćnema' seems to denounce materialism in a similar way: 'fret for your late etc.', and so does 'Hooker...'.

I don't see these as conspiratory similarities because they clearly aren't, but I don't see them as complete coincidences either. This is the movement I speak of. It is possible to observe similar concepts of severing yourself from the restrictions of modern society in much of today's art. I think the general attitude can be summed up as something along the lines of: "Become an individual. Whatever you personally find beautiful, don't stop yourself from indulging it." Most of this art does ammend that statement, however, to create the right balance. There are obviously certain things which you can't do just because you like it - eg. murdering, stealing etc.

Here are examples of pieces of art which I believe are products of this movement:

'The Matrix': people are confined to the world presented to them by the Matrix itself, and the protagonists are trying to awaken everyone and take control of their own lives. Morpheus even makes reference to how those who are unaware of their situation are too attached to their lives to let go: "Most of these people are not ready to be unplugged."

'American Beauty': Kevin Spacey's character takes control of his own life and quits his job and does whatever he wants to do. Individuality is a key theme in the film, as the boy next door illustrates when he talks of how he finds the drifting bag the most beautiful thing he has ever filmed.

'American Psycho': In the novel, modern life reaches its logical conclusion. All of today's preconceived ideals are satired, warning the reader of what you could become if you only care about what 'The Times' rates as the best or whatever. The passages dedicated to Patrick Bateman's favourite bands illustrate this quite well.

Bill Hicks says similar things, particularly when he's talking about sending L.A. into the ocean. At the Drive-in's 'Relationships of Command' is another one - the song 'Pattern Against User' in particular.
I hope that this one will emphasise my point rather than detract from it, but Tori Amos could also be expressing similar ideals in her song 'Precious Things': "These precious things/let them bleed/let them wash away."
Heck, even god damn Papa Roach are sending out a similar message: "There's no money/there's no possessions/only obsessins." etc.
You could probably find the same sort of ideals somewhere in the music of Soundgarden, Kyuss, Portishead, Tricky etc. as well as in other films or novels like 'eXistenZ', 'Twelve Monkeys', 'Brazil', and so on.

Essentially, the fact that aspects of Fight Club are similar to Ćnima is not surprising, I think it's just a sign of the times. Some sort of immense period of self-awakening is underway in the serious art-world and I think that when Generation X grows up it could be quite a different world.

I'm not sure how well I've articulated everything... but I hope y'all have enjoyed reading this anyway :)

As always, its just my own ramblings and its cool if you think it's total shit or whatever.

Later folks.
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Old 01-19-2003, 07:01 AM   #39
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Nice thread.

I read it from the beginning and I have to say that, regardless of what the subject matter is, everyone seemed to build off of each other and it became constructive and multi-dimentional. That's what is so appealing.
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Old 01-28-2003, 07:00 PM   #40
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This is a very intersesting theory. I have justb recently discovered Fight Club. It was recomended by a friend; who coinsedently introduced me to Tool. The movie blew me away. I had never really thought at all aout the connection, but once it was said I noticed a few things that i thought I would share. One thing I notcied right aay was the relation with Jimmy. The song obviously is about being abandonment. I have heard that it refers to Maynard's mother leaving him, but I'm not sure. That song reminded me greatly of the movie. Jack was not only abndoned by his father but also by Tyler. Also, there is a lot of talk about leting go of God, which could relate to Eulogy. In Push-It the "remember I'll always lo you, as i claw your f*ck*ng throat away" line just reminds me f the "fight club" itself. All of the men have no grudge against each other or anything; they fight not to hurt each other but rather to help. With Forty Six an Two could relate as well. When tey are fighting they are kind of "shedding their skin" and letting "the chains come down" and gaining this ...greater sense. Well, I don't think that there is any direct connection either. Both just share similar ideas. Whether you admit it or not, though, everyone wants it to be true. But i quess we can always dream, huh.
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