If this was mentioned, I am truely sorry. I was reading this in a book and I thought I'd put it out there.
Straight from the book I have entitled "The Occult: A History" by Colin Wilson
"As long ago as 1887, Max Muller, the editor of "The Sacred Books of the East" pointed out that for all practical purposes our ancestors of two thousand years ago were almost colour-blind as most animals are today."
It also goes on to say,
"Democtritus knew of no more than four colors: black, white, red and yellow"
It also discusses:
"Aristotole's pupil Alexander of Macedon spent his life conquering the world. Alexander was energetic and imaginitive; what else was there for him to do but conquer the world, and then cry when there was nothing left to conquer"
To me, this connects to the line
"Push the envelope. Watch it bend.
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind."
Thus my theory on this song is probably one that has already been mentioned, evolution of human beings and the idea that we must push the limits to find more than what we currently see.
Maybe this will fit in with some of the other theories, I just found it interesting.
__________________ Great spirits have always encountered opposition from mediocre minds. The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly. ~Albert Einstein
I believe they could be described as "practically" color blind, only cause they had little need to "name" or identify in an way, any colors at all. First light and dark, then reds and yellows were distinguished. But, it is only a product of a culture that can creat more and more things, that also needs to distinguish more further a spectrum of colors.
It's not that they couldn't have seen a purple or orange ...just that they never did, enough to need to talk about it anyway.
But I digress. Your point about the lyric is a good one. I believe, the seperation of blues from greens was said to be the major "turning' point in most languages/cultures.
__________________ stop trying to pull me out of my self indulgant pitifull hole
i remember reading an interview someone had with maynard, and he mentioned something about black, white, red, and yellow being very prominent colors associated with creation and consciousness, found in many indigenous beliefs.
__________________ "'We shall overleap time, space, and dimensions, and without bodily motion peer to the bottom of creation." - lovecraft
The plot thickens. Maybe the Aries theory can be connected, funny how all this stuff sometimes connects by pure accident.
Interesting.
__________________ Great spirits have always encountered opposition from mediocre minds. The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly. ~Albert Einstein
i found something interesting, i dont know if your book said it or not but here it is:
"I have always thought that his discussion of color perception is extraordinarily interesting. He points out, citing various classic sources, that "not more than 15 or 20,000 years ago, man was only conscious of, only perceived, one color."
Evidence for this prevails in studies of the Indo-European language history. Studies found "no names of colors in primitive Indo-European speech" and "no Sanskrit root... has any reference to color."
Bucke concludes that gradually, color perception evolved. Early literature, such as the Rig Veda only refers to red, yellow, and black. Later, white and green joined the list. Even in Homer's Iliad and Odyssey, and the Bible, the sky is not identified as "blue" and for Homer, the sea is "wine-dark."
Physics students or esoteric students who have studied the vibrational measurements of color may note that the colors apparently came to be perceived by humans in the order of the spectrum beginning with red, which has the slowest vibration.
As a physician, Dr. Bucke notes that the existence of color-blindness in persons of all countries what he calls an "atavism," or a "relapse to a condition which was normal in the ancestry of the individual" "shows that the color sense is a modern faculty." Bucke also discusses the sense of fragrance and the evolution of the human moral nature."
edit: this is from an essay on cosmic consciousness by Gayl Woityra
i also heard that we are colour blind to other colours.
interesting ideas. I always just interpreted these lines fairly literally, ie in his youth before his spiritual growth he saw things in black and white, ie extremes, all or nothing kind of thing, but the other colours reaching out to him symbolised his spiritual growth and understanding that things are not just black and white, that there is more to life than just extremes.
I believe that its possible it could mean all of these things. Maybe the songs are made so one can percieve it at face value and be content and then other people can dig deeper.
lllvllledusa, thanks for the quote, it elaborated on what my book was saying.
I really think that this is part of the evolution of man, and with everything else we've found, it would make sense because we are supposed to evolve by way of moving to the next level of conciousness.
__________________ Great spirits have always encountered opposition from mediocre minds. The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly. ~Albert Einstein
In the song "Lateralus" you refer to the origins of perceptual observation i.e. "Black then white are all I see in my infancy", "red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me, lets me see". Again, is this more of a metaphor or are you being literal? The reason I ask is because human developmental reasoning is one of my areas of research. That is, to what degree are we born with human propensities for perception, speech, responses, etc., and to what extent are these learned behaviours?
MK: "I use the archetype stories of North American aboriginals and the themes or colours which appear over and over again in the oral stories handed down through generations. Black, white, red, and yellow play very heavily in aboriginal stories of creation."
i also heard that we are colour blind to other colours.
...the color out of space - h.p. lovecraft
it brings up a similar subject. i love his descriptions on things like this. i'll try to find some good ones and post them up.
__________________ "'We shall overleap time, space, and dimensions, and without bodily motion peer to the bottom of creation." - lovecraft
Do you have any Lovecraft books to recommend? I've always heard they were really good, but never knew of any specific titles.
Thanks a lot for the quote and link.
__________________ Great spirits have always encountered opposition from mediocre minds. The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly. ~Albert Einstein
Do you have any Lovecraft books to recommend? I've always heard they were really good, but never knew of any specific titles.
Thanks a lot for the quote and link.
most of lovecraft's stories are too short for their own books, so most of them can only be found in collections. i would highly recommend the compilation by del rey publishers, 'the dream cycle of h.p. lovecraft - dreams of terror and death'. it's a collection of a lot of his dream-related stories, but don't let the title suggest too much (not much terror). 'azathoth' is one of my favorites. unfortunately that compilation does not include 'the colour out of space', which i recall having very good descriptions. there are numerous books that should contain the story though.
i find some of his stories can drag a little in the beginning, but can really pick up middle to end.
It is also discussed on wikipedia's summation of the album and the song specifically, that it is widely believed that every human begins to see colors in this order. As an infant, seeing only black and white, then being able to recognize red and yellow, and developing further to be able to see others as well.
Another point brought up there is that these colors also represent the materials combining to make the Philosopher's Stone, being a continuation of the band's references to alchemy in other songs...Black = Mercury, White = Salt, Red = Stone, Yellow = Sulphur
what do these colors symbolize to the psyche? your psyche? our psyche? In Psychology and Alchemy Jung found these colors in the prima materia of alchemy. Nigredo(black) massa confusia, Albedo( white) is the next transition. Rubedo(red) the mariage of sol and luna, and yellow is sometomes left out or yellowing(xanthosis), and the rubedo is the final product, which is actually unfinal because the individuation process doesn't end. what is the PINK reaching out to me letting me see? a vagina?
Last edited by thezeusanator; 02-17-2007 at 11:23 AM..
Extending what the zuesanator and aic4ever said, black, white, red, and yellow symbolized the different alchemical stages lead must go through to become gold (nigredo, albedo, citrinitas, rubedo). A lateralus is also the name of the spiral that is formed when the fibbonaci sequence is graphed. The Greek letter Phi (a.k.a the golden ratio) is related to the fibbonaci sequence. Golden ratio . . colors to create gold.
I've heard of another interpretation where Black and white is how you viewed the world before taking drugs. Then red and yellow is how it looks after experiencing drugs. I can give this validation having used drugs for a while but I've never tried acid (yet) so if any of you have tried it and can build upon the "drug" interpretation please do.
Get over it, here directly from the man's mouth in an interview:
In the song "Lateralus" you refer to the origins of perceptual observation i.e. "Black then white are all I see in my infancy", "red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me, lets me see". Again, is this more of a metaphor or are you being literal? The reason I ask is because human developmental reasoning is one of my areas of research. That is, to what degree are we born with human propensities for perception, speech, responses, etc., and to what extent are these learned behaviours?
MK: "I use the archetype stories of North American aboriginals and the themes or colours which appear over and over again in the oral stories handed down through generations. Black, white, red, and yellow play very heavily in aboriginal stories of creation."
Now be done with your bickering
__________________ "WITHOUT A LITTLE EVIL, GOOD WOULD NEVER EXIST"
Inner, you didn't really clear anything up there, so now you listen, boy.
What we learn, we learn first by accident, then by practice. eg. something falls down a hill, we recognize gravity, build a waterpark with slides.
Happy accident = innovation.
So, as our brain begins to develop, ideas form into teachings, we become more adept (still eons from where we have been), thus, we differentiate. Our senses grow with us. Think about fire way back, just fire. As we learn to control it, we notice red and yellow and orange are cooler flames (Kelvin), and that blue bears a temperature around 6800 degrees Kelvin. What was just fire is now more specific, our eyes get better, our senses grow.
Let's fast foreward. How much of the actual light spectrum can we see? Fuck all. As we become more in tune with our senses, they will develop.
Thje next problem, perhaps one we should be discussing, is where we're headed. The world of spirits must soon be recognized, which would signify a jump from colour (either in a sense of duality or what we've been discussing) into something new.
So i guess the real question is, are we in black and whgite right now, or colour.
It might help to note Buddhist interpretations of these colours: Red = connection to Earth, sexual reproduction. So, a reconnection? Recognition?
One reality, and just like everything else, we have to lie to ourselves about it.
Inner, you didn't really clear anything up there, so now you listen, boy.
What we learn, we learn first by accident, then by practice. eg. something falls down a hill, we recognize gravity, build a waterpark with slides.
Happy accident = innovation.
So, as our brain begins to develop, ideas form into teachings, we become more adept (still eons from where we have been), thus, we differentiate. Our senses grow with us. Think about fire way back, just fire. As we learn to control it, we notice red and yellow and orange are cooler flames (Kelvin), and that blue bears a temperature around 6800 degrees Kelvin. What was just fire is now more specific, our eyes get better, our senses grow.
Let's fast foreward. How much of the actual light spectrum can we see? Fuck all. As we become more in tune with our senses, they will develop.
Thje next problem, perhaps one we should be discussing, is where we're headed. The world of spirits must soon be recognized, which would signify a jump from colour (either in a sense of duality or what we've been discussing) into something new.
So i guess the real question is, are we in black and whgite right now, or colour.
It might help to note Buddhist interpretations of these colours: Red = connection to Earth, sexual reproduction. So, a reconnection? Recognition?
One reality, and just like everything else, we have to lie to ourselves about it.
Actually my intentions of "clearing up" hit right on mark. The only goal was the bickering of what Maynards standpoint was on why he used these color references. Many people have stated many different ideas (i.e. alchemy and misc other stuff). What I posted came from his mouth therefore disputing these other erroneous ideas conjured up by some. So, in seeing that you are as about as quick as I in pointing out someone's fault, the difference lies within the fact that again you have mis-quoted me and are again, sadly mistaken. Whereas to I, am in no way shape or form off target in my comments when I speaketh upon thy mortals.
i can't remember the titles of the books, but i've read from several sources the following (look at it as a microcosm of the macrocosm you all are discussing with birth and perception...i got that bassackwards.)
many native beliefs around the world (back to maynard's reasoning) have creation myths involving the first four races being born as the four colors mentioned...now, and here's the direct relevancy to the song!, they also believed it represented the four directions or the four winds
north was black, the land of cold darkness, the pole and focal point of the stars when viewed from earth
south was white, the land of great warmth (we'll get into this more when the ice-caps melt and we find what they left...changing seasons and all)
east was red representing the light and the dawn
west was yellow, the setting sun
...
now you have the four directions of earth...but there are seven (remember that movie stargate)
north, south, east, and west...
black, white, red, and yellow...
then there is below, above and the heavens
"as below, so above and beyond i imagine!"
forward, backward, right, left, down, up...and then the destination
the heavens...if you look at this drawn on a piece of paper you get a representation of the inner space of a cube...straight before curved right..."push the envelope watch it bend" hell, some of the geometric mandalas in the artwork of parabola and 10,000 days have the cube lines in the dead center of them...i could keep going but i'll save that for later.
not that it's relevant here...but soon i'll be moving from my beloved appalachia to arizona...i'll let you all know how the wine is...and yes, i can swim
The colours symbolised personal growth and maturity to me... Like when you are a child, everything is black and white, there is no room for compromise or nuances, something either is true or not, or bad or good. As one grows and hopefully evolves, spiritually, one learns to see other "colours", learns that everything is a balance of things, there is no absolute good or evil, and so on. Obviously not what Maynard meant, but this is what it brought to my mind.
oh, and I just discovered that this is about the same thing as ktdude already had written, sorry... :)
Last edited by orange_knickers; 04-13-2007 at 04:10 AM..
I always though black, white, red yellow were the order of which an infant starts seeing colours.. I like what I'm reading tho
I agree. The lyric clearly states *black and white are all I see in my infancy red and yellow came to be reaching out to me" but that is just what I figured while listening to it.
__________________ Holy Jesus! What are these god damned animals?!?!
The colours symbolised personal growth and maturity to me... Like when you are a child, everything is black and white, there is no room for compromise or nuances, something either is true or not, or bad or good. As one grows and hopefully evolves, spiritually, one learns to see other "colours", learns that everything is a balance of things, there is no absolute good or evil, and so on. Obviously not what Maynard meant, but this is what it brought to my mind.
oh, and I just discovered that this is about the same thing as ktdude already had written, sorry... :)
that is an interesting theory.
__________________ Holy Jesus! What are these god damned animals?!?!
"Overthinking, overanalyzing separates the body from the mind."
Not to say that's a bad thing, necessarily.
Hmm.
Black absorbs the light. White reflects it.
Red is the color of blood.
And piss is yellow.
Black and white the colors that make up gray or should I say Grey as in Alex?
Also this could be a reference to the times of the Civil War when slavery was still rampant and it was an obvious black and white thing taking place. If the narrator of the song was himeself a slave owner, this would make total sense, coming out of the mouth of a perhaps former biggot who in his infancy was conditioned to view things in this way.
Then when he grew and matured into an intelligent young man, he began to realize that his family were just a bunch of REDnecks who thought that they could take the Chinese and enslave them too--who have been erroneously branded as the YELLOW-skinned ones.
Being faced with this racial dillema, he then came to SEE for the first time that as his own kind---the rednecks, and the Chinese immigrants CAME TO him that it was they who LET him SEE that the world doesn't revolve around black and white, but more accurately, it revolves around black, white, red, and yellow. Since the blacks and whites pretty much hated each other, they would never think to REACH OUT TO him since he was known as a redneck and considered untouchable in Medieval times.
No, it took the Chinese to reach out and hold their lavishly ornamented oriental mirrors in front of the white man (and rednecks at the same time) to open their eyes for the first time.
"Why do my eyes hurt?"
"Because you've never used them before."
Last edited by tryptosaur; 05-07-2007 at 01:41 PM..
this may sound really stupid, but i was pondering on this yesterday.. when your born your color blind right? and then as a little kid you allways wanted a happy meal from mcdonalds.. well i see it as your born (black and white) and then grow up on mcdonalds (red and yellow) you tend to miss those days.. idk just a thought
This too, makes sense.
Red and yellow then came to be. Reaching out to me. Lets me see.
If red and yellow do in fact represent McDonalds, then as a youngling one might suppose that it was Ronald Mcdonald who was responsible for the abolishment of slavery and not Abraham Lincoln, which for Mr. Kroc or whatever the franchise-owner's name is would be a desirable advantage in the competitive field of fast food. Just think if someone grew up seeing the Burger King (Martin Luther King, Jr----Junior Whopper!) what they would think regarding their highly segregated ad campaign, which up until a few years ago was comprised of a whopping 90% or more of African American commercial actors. They would have had in their infantile brains Martin Luther King, Jr. and Malcom X confused.
To a child with a simple mind (black and white) this would make Burger King seem like they were promoting racism.
One day the child sees a McDonalds commercial, with a happy clown, a hamburgler (both black and white together=racial harmony among fast food theives), and a big fat grimmace who is purple---indicating you'll only become big, fat, and pearshaped if you are purple--and no ethnicity is naturally purple, so eat all you want, AND the french fry guys are alive, breathing, sentient creatures--potatoes are mammals?
So the vegetarian option becomes a null issue.
Mass confusion is what the promulgators of this fantasy have intended from the beginning. The red and yellow only complicates the matter further.
Even though these colors are reaching out to young minds, supposedly letting them see---it is all a sickening load of crap! Lets you see mankinds evil greedy nature, disguised as fun and games filmed to annoyingly happy jingles.
I never realized how many diverse meanings one song could have.
Does anyone else feel in their gut that Maynard intended it this way?
I remember years ago, back when the Holy Gift thang was spreading like wildfire, and i just hid in the shadows, this song was (perhaps the mother of the whole gift thing) someone's crux for the argument; since the whole thing was based on how Columbus found North America (sailing in spirals).
I bought it for a while.
tryptosaur is insane, or perhaps a poet.
Black, white, red and yellow are NOT in any way similar to the points on out compass, take a look at the visible light spectrum again. Wouldn't violet play a part?
I remember years ago, back when the Holy Gift thang was spreading like wildfire, and i just hid in the shadows, this song was (perhaps the mother of the whole gift thing) someone's crux for the argument; since the whole thing was based on how Columbus found North America (sailing in spirals).
I bought it for a while.
tryptosaur is insane, or perhaps a poet.
Black, white, red and yellow are NOT in any way similar to the points on out compass, take a look at the visible light spectrum again. Wouldn't violet play a part?
I don't think this thread can be saved.
I think Tryptosaur has just gobbled up way too many drugs. Creative yes, but so so far from reasonable logic.
__________________ "WITHOUT A LITTLE EVIL, GOOD WOULD NEVER EXIST"
His post was VERY creative, and humorous and entertaining... lol Yeah, either he is crazy, on drugs or just having a lot of fun.... For his sake I hope for the latter.
