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Old 09-18-2009, 03:05 PM   #1
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Black and White

Black then white are all I see in my infancy
Red and yellow then came to be
Reaching out to me
Lets me see

I have some thoughts on this first stanza. If we look at the world through eyes that only see black and white, good and bad, left and right, right and wrong, we don't accept that things just aren't that simple. By adding in red and yellow we can see that things can be both good and bad, left and right, right and wrong on many different levels. The acknowledgement that life is more complicated than black and white we see the reality for what it is unstifled by our own preconceptions.

Also, I want to take this chance to talk about the Fibinocci sequence in the song. I was watching Drunvalo's new video on the Maya the other day and he talked about how without knowing where we have been ad who we are we can't know where we are going. So just like 1 adds to 1 to make 2., then the 2 looks back at the one and adds it to itself to make 3, we too should always look back and recognize where we began.

Then I noticed:

"Feed my will to feel that moment drawing way outside the lines."

The first verse speaks of the past. Then:

"Feed my will to feel this moment urging me to cross the line."

The second talks about the present. So after adding these two together, he goes on to talk about the future:

"With my feet upon the ground I lose myself
between the sounds and open wide to suck it in,
I feel it move across my skin.
I'm reaching up and reaching out,
I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.

Spiral out. Keep going, going..."

I just thought that was kind of cool. Hope you enjoyed the post, if not get over it.
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Old 09-25-2009, 01:24 AM   #2
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Re: Black and White

I agree with your post 100%. This whole album, this song in particular, is about taking a step back and looking at life from another perspective, from a "lateral" view. I've interpreted this song to be about looking at life and seeing what makes you think what you think, if that makes sense. Why do you like/dislike something? What's good or bad about it? What even makes something good or bad?

That's just my 2 cents.
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Old 09-28-2009, 11:47 AM   #3
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Re: Black and White

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Originally Posted by McRoggles View Post
Hmm, personally I think Lateralus as a whole is about communication.
In my opinion, the album as a whole is about reaching a more peaceful state of mind, and strengthening communication is part of that, but there are also many more aspects. The song Lateralus to me is about many things, opening your mind to more possibilities and opportunities being the main theme.

I get how Schism is about communication, but can you explain how you came to the conclusion that the whole album is? Or are you talking about the song? In either case I'd like to know.
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Old 09-30-2009, 08:33 AM   #4
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Re: Black and White

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Originally Posted by Roopey View Post
In my opinion, the album as a whole is about reaching a more peaceful state of mind, and strengthening communication is part of that, but there are also many more aspects. The song Lateralus to me is about many things, opening your mind to more possibilities and opportunities being the main theme.

I get how Schism is about communication, but can you explain how you came to the conclusion that the whole album is? Or are you talking about the song? In either case I'd like to know.
I agree, commication is a part of this but it is not the entire concept of the album. The main theme is inter-reflection and learning mastery of oneself to acheive a higher state of being and/or self awareness.
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Old 10-15-2009, 02:02 AM   #5
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Re: Black and White

I would say the main theme is personal discovery, between that which is you and your relationships. Lateralus is basically about pushing the envelope, pushing boundaries, and seeing past the blacks and whites. The fibinocci parts are just poetic expressions relating to those concepts.
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Old 10-17-2009, 11:22 PM   #6
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Re: Black and White

Way too long of a listener, first time caller.

Anyway, whenever I first heard the song, I didn't understand the fibinocci number sequence or anything else about the song (seven years later, I get it) but there is something I do notice about the song that I haven't seen anyone else post about this one.

It relates to the first verse, in particular:

[Black and white are all I see in my infancy
Red and yellow then came to me
Reaching out to me
Lets me see]

When I first heard this, I was immediately relating this to the book "The Giver." The book is about a society where everything is controlled and no one sees in any colors but black white. There is only one person, The Giver, who has any sort of ability to see in color. Roles in the future (laborers, birthmothers, scientists) are determined at about the age of 12? and this particular year in the book, the main character receives the role of becoming the new Giver. The Giver has the knowledge of all past life through memories and is able to pass them on to others (strangely enough, memories about World War II and other past events.)

Now, why the book backstory? The main character in the book first starts to see colors, only as blips or flashes at first. First, he notices the color of red in an apple from a schoolmate as he/she tosses it to him. Next, he notices the blonde hair of his hopefull significant other.

Black and white > Red > Yellow

Maybe this is the color recognition pattern humans develop as children. Who knows?

BTW, Maynard is probably an Anasasi.
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Old 10-18-2009, 08:37 PM   #7
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Re: Black and White

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Originally Posted by Irisu View Post
All you did was restate the lyrics, that's in no way an interpretation.
Exactly.... there's really not much beyond it. Unless one tries to morph it into their own lives. It's vague enough for people to do that.
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Old 10-19-2009, 09:51 AM   #8
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Re: Black and White

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Originally Posted by ithinktherefore View Post
I would say the main theme is personal discovery, between that which is you and your relationships. Lateralus is basically about pushing the envelope, pushing boundaries, and seeing past the blacks and whites. The fibinocci parts are just poetic expressions relating to those concepts.
That's basically exactly what I just said but in different words.
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Old 10-19-2009, 09:53 AM   #9
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Re: Black and White

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Originally Posted by Razim View Post
Maybe this is the color recognition pattern humans develop as children. Who knows?
That is correct, children only see in black and white at first then later the colors come in. These colors are also very relevant to an indigenous tribe according to Maynard, which is what he said that verse is referring to.
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Old 10-19-2009, 01:30 PM   #10
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Re: Black and White

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Originally Posted by Inner_Eulogy View Post
That's basically exactly what I just said but in different words.
Then we are in agreement.
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Old 10-19-2009, 09:35 PM   #11
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Re: Black and White

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irisu View Post
Neither of you said anything I wanted to hear
is that what you are really trying to say?
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Old 10-20-2009, 09:34 AM   #12
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Re: Black and White

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Originally Posted by Irisu View Post
I just said absolutely nothing too.
/fixed
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Old 10-21-2009, 10:37 PM   #13
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Re: Black and White

It all depends on what you mean by "interpret". I interpret these lyrics simply as they are. They make sense to me exactly as they are written. I don't see any need to use radically different terminology or concepts in order to "interpret" these lyrics.

For instance, to use an extreme example, if I saw in an Algebra Book written, "2+2=4"... I wouldn't interpret that as anything but an equation. The expression is self sufficient.
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Old 12-29-2009, 09:33 PM   #14
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Re: Black and White

One might add insight, or rather another perspective I.E. their interpretation and or opinion on the matter, to a situation, such as that of music, lyrics, art, etc. and that is all it is; something for you. More information, more perspectives. No one is right or wrong, because they can't be. Maynard isn't even right in his interpretation of his own lyrics, for they are now art, and it is merely his interpretation.

So, in response, there is a use for all information if not merely to get a better grasp on the whole of the situation or problem, as it may be. Knowledge is power, not only for the external, but for the internal as well.

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Old 12-30-2009, 10:13 PM   #15
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Re: Black and White

Mock the concept as you may, but it gets you nowhere and only fuels your ignorance. If you were to honestly think the Mona Lisa is about cats, which I highly doubt, then indeed that would be interesting thing to say. Why would you think that, I wonder? Maybe through reflection and study I might understand better your logic and reason for such a statement, furthering my own understanding of the human condition and how different people see the same thing differently and in what ways.
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Old 01-01-2010, 09:20 PM   #16
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Re: Black and White

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roopey View Post
One might add insight, or rather another perspective I.E. their interpretation and or opinion on the matter, to a situation, such as that of music, lyrics, art, etc. and that is all it is; something for you. More information, more perspectives. No one is right or wrong, because they can't be. Maynard isn't even right in his interpretation of his own lyrics, for they are now art, and it is merely his interpretation.

So, in response, there is a use for all information if not merely to get a better grasp on the whole of the situation or problem, as it may be. Knowledge is power, not only for the external, but for the internal as well.

Roop
I know what you're trying to say but you're just wrong. Maynard's interpretation of his own music cannot be wrong considering he wrote the music and no matter what context or perspective outsiders see it in, he had specific origins and meanings behind his lyrics. It's not to say that some aren't multi-faceted but he still intending something intentional and has at times even shared what that is/was with his audience. Therefore no matter what you may say, they are interpretations that are simply flat out wrong are idiotic, others that are right or even some that are wrong yet still at least logically intriguing.
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Old 01-03-2010, 11:41 PM   #17
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Re: Black and White

His intentions were to make a work of art. Why do you think they don't print the lyrics with the albums, why everything is left up to you to figure out for yourself. His interpretation of the lyrics are still only one man's interpretation of something much deeper than anyone can fully understand.

Art is subjective. Your interpretation is yours to cherish and mine mine. The artists interpretation is irrelevant and I wish you guys actually understood that. To think that Maynard's interpretation of his lyrics is the end all of interpretations narrows your mind and limits the possibilities.

It's funny how you are all just a bunch of tools, and don't even know how to think for yourselves, which is an underlying theme of all of Tool's music.
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Old 01-04-2010, 02:59 AM   #18
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Re: Black and White

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roopey View Post
His intentions were to make a work of art. Why do you think they don't print the lyrics with the albums, why everything is left up to you to figure out for yourself. His interpretation of the lyrics are still only one man's interpretation of something much deeper than anyone can fully understand.

Art is subjective. Your interpretation is yours to cherish and mine mine. The artists interpretation is irrelevant and I wish you guys actually understood that. To think that Maynard's interpretation of his lyrics is the end all of interpretations narrows your mind and limits the possibilities.

It's funny how you are all just a bunch of tools, and don't even know how to think for yourselves, which is an underlying theme of all of Tool's music.
Blah blah blah .... "You say potatoes..."

Welcome to the forum, name-calling guy!
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Old 01-04-2010, 02:16 PM   #19
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Re: Black and White

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Originally Posted by Roopey View Post
His intentions were to make a work of art. Why do you think they don't print the lyrics with the albums, why everything is left up to you to figure out for yourself. His interpretation of the lyrics are still only one man's interpretation of something much deeper than anyone can fully understand.

Art is subjective. Your interpretation is yours to cherish and mine mine. The artists interpretation is irrelevant and I wish you guys actually understood that. To think that Maynard's interpretation of his lyrics is the end all of interpretations narrows your mind and limits the possibilities.

It's funny how you are all just a bunch of tools, and don't even know how to think for yourselves, which is an underlying theme of all of Tool's music.
Actually, you're wrong again. They don't "initially" release the official lyrics at first so that you can fully appreciate the music as is. They do, however, eventually release them "officially".

Yes, his interpretation IS only one man's, however, it's from the man who wrote them himself, so who are you to say there wasn't an intended meaning for them? I never once said that his take is the only one that could ever be formulated but you're just going the entirely wrong way about making your argument....as a matter of fact, had you said something along the lines of agreeing with both by stating that there ARE actual specific meanings behind these songs given the fact that ALL lyrics in general were written by someone with a particular intent and purpose...HOWEVER, being that they ARE a form of art, people are free to formulate their own interpretations of what it means to THEM. Now see, if you weren't too ignorant to just blindly argue one side of this matter, we wouldn't be having this discussion/disagreement. I see it from both angles, which is why I said I understood what you were "trying" to say in the beginning.

It's funny that you think we're the tool when in fact you're staring at your own reflection. Being a hypocrite is also a source of much of their material.
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Old 01-04-2010, 04:20 PM   #20
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Re: Black and White

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irisu View Post
I thought it was purely subjective? How can they have a theme if Maynard's "interpretation" is no more valid than yours?

But you're right of course, you're the only one here who can think for them self..
*cough*bullshit*cough*
There is only really one way to interpret the words,

"Think for yourself, question authority."

These words may be applied to many different scenarios, but all in all there is really only one interpretation, it's pretty straight-forward.

All I have been trying to say thus far is that there is no right or wrong answer to how you or any of us look at lyrics. This is true for you, Maynard, and me. I know it's kind of tacky to quote myself from earlier in the post but:

"If we look at the world through eyes that only see black and white, good and bad, left and right, right and wrong, we don't accept that things just aren't that simple. By adding in red and yellow we can see that things can be both good and bad, left and right, right and wrong on many different levels. The acknowledgment that life is more complicated than black and white we see the reality for what it is unstifled by our own preconceptions."

But by saying that Maynard's interpretation is the right interpretation is saying there is a right interpretation and a wrong one. Whether he intended a meaning or not, the meaning is ours to make for ourselves. The rejection of anyone's interpretation as wrong only hinders your own understanding of human beings at different stages in life. Like Hershel's Garden we have the opportunity here to see different specimens at different stages in there journey all at once. Through this we are able to deduce how and why certain people think certain things and logically deduce where they might go.

I never once said that Maynard's interpretation is any less valuable than any of ours, just that it is irrelevant in the sense of right and wrong, because there is no right and wrong. Someone might have an opinion that is far from your own, and because of that you view it as wrong, but this is simply not true. So you see, I'm not arguing one side of this matter, I'm arguing that all sides are relevant and all have value, despite how it differs from your side.
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Old 01-04-2010, 06:02 PM   #21
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Re: Black and White

I have not once said that any of you were wrong or that I was right, just that you should not say other people are wrong because they have a different opinion to yours, BECAUSE THEY CAN'T BE FUCKING WRONG! It might sound contradictory, but then again, you should read some of Jung's work on Alchemy and then talk to me about things that sound contradictory.

Think for yourself. question authority.

I didn't even give you my interpretation of this so how can you say that I said mine is right, and that the one that you put forth is wrong? All I said is that there is really only one interpretation. However you choose to interpret what I'm trying to explain to you is of course your choice. Please, stop accusing me of saying things I have not said.

We can dance like this forever, so I will concede to you that humans are disgusting animals, because I whole-heartedly agree with that statement. We really, really are. In terms of mental evolution though, we are the furthest down the track of breaking into consciousness than any other animal in this world (that we know of, at least) thanks to drugs. :) So the study of ourselves, is the only way to break further into consciousness and free ourselves from mental derangement. This includes everyone, not just you. To recognize the patterns in others is to recognize the pattern in ourselves, for we are one.

I do understand where you guys are coming from, I really do, but please understand that my stance has always been that we should not take lightly even the most ridiculous of statements, for they all have value in the study of ourselves.

To quote Jung, "Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves."
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Old 01-04-2010, 07:44 PM   #22
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Re: Black and White

I could say Prison Sex is about getting married while in prison and ya' know what....that's absolutely wrong. There may be several theories that may hold some water even though not particularily true, however, a statement as I made above is clearly WRONG, no matter how you look at it.

Case closed.
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Old 01-05-2010, 12:24 PM   #23
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Re: Black and White

You see, if you said that you would not be wrong. You would not have really dug into any deeper meanings than just what the words have given you, made some odd conclusion about marriage, but still not wrong.

I go through these forums and constantly find opinions I do not agree with, and to some of them I speak my mind, others not so much. Just because I disagree with these people doesn't make them wrong, it just means I disagree with them. Either I have dug deeper into the words, or they have, but either way, no one is wrong.

I see the albums Opiate, Undertow, and AEnima all as a story of digging through the shadow, finding the anima and building a relationship with her, letting the ego die, and then moving forward. The story of individuation and every single song on each of those albums can be related to the story. Am I wrong? No. That's merely how I look at it.

Opinions cannot be wrong. They can't. They are just another way of looking at the same thing.
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Old 01-06-2010, 01:08 PM   #24
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Re: Black and White

lol *shakes head*

Some reality your parents must've created for you. Little Jimmy can do no wrong...now take that ice pick out of the cats head and say you're sorry and we'll try again next time.
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Old 01-06-2010, 01:17 PM   #25
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Re: Black and White

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roopey View Post
I see the albums Opiate, Undertow, and AEnima all as a story of digging through the shadow, finding the anima and building a relationship with her, letting the ego die, and then moving forward. The story of individuation and every single song on each of those albums can be related to the story. Am I wrong? No. That's merely how I look at it.
Interesting. But how does 10,000 days fit in this story?

Just curious.
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Old 01-06-2010, 01:18 PM   #26
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Re: Black and White

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Originally Posted by Roopey View Post
Opinions cannot be wrong. They can't. They are just another way of looking at the same thing.
If you mean in lyrics, then yes.
Not in real life.
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Old 01-06-2010, 06:42 PM   #27
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Re: Black and White

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If you mean in lyrics, then yes.
Not in real life.
46n2 was written about Rolo's ascension to Jedi Master....and that's an opinion so it can't be wrong, right?
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Old 01-07-2010, 02:14 AM   #28
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Re: Black and White

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Originally Posted by Rolo View Post
Interesting. But how does 10,000 days fit in this story?

Just curious.
Well, 10,000 Days is still a puzzle to me, being so far down the path of individuation and me being no where near middle age, but I think it's about balance and acceptance. Individuation is about finding your place in the world, not about being an individual as it's name might imply, but how can one find there place in such chaos? 10,000 Days is a step towards accepting the world for what it is. Like I said before, I really don't know because I'm so young.

Irisu, that is a compromise I can live with. :) I like this place, people don't give up easily and are outspoken on many levels. It's nice to be a part of a forum not full of fucking morons that just lay there as you fuck them in the ass.

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Old 01-07-2010, 03:07 AM   #29
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Re: Black and White

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Originally Posted by Inner_Eulogy View Post
46n2 was written about Rolo's ascension to Jedi Master....
DAMN, i thought nobody would figure that out!
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Old 01-16-2010, 03:05 AM   #30
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Re: Black and White

In my opinion, after reading this whole thread and thinking about it, is that you are all correct. Interpretation and opinion are not the same. However, your individual interpretation is your opinion. I am new to this site and must say that it is quite amazing how very different all of our views on Tools music are. Tool has been an inspiration to many, including myself, to find whatever it is that we are looking for. Bottom line is that Tool has inspired thought in all of us and I must say that I am very happy that I found a place were those thoughts can be shared and discussed.
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Old 01-16-2010, 03:27 AM   #31
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Re: Black and White

The puzzle is life itself.
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Old 01-16-2010, 06:18 AM   #32
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Re: Black and White

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roopey View Post
It might sound contradictory, but then again, you should read some of Jung's work on Alchemy and then talk to me about things that sound contradictory.
And this means?

Quote:
Think for yourself. question authority.
Wheres the trust??

Quote:
To quote Jung, "Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves."
True
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Old 01-16-2010, 06:41 AM   #33
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Re: Black and White

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Originally Posted by Irisu View Post
I guess the middle ground here would be that any interpretation that fits cannot be wrong. But there are some that are so far off from any possible meaning of the words that they can be just flat out wrong. Maybe that we can agree on?
If you state that some are flat out wrong, then what the others are? Well, I go on and assume that you would call them "right", but that is not the real issue that I think is interesting (you could say that some are just "wrong" without labeling the other group).

Now where you set the border of what are wrong and what are not? What preliminary information you have to have, to make the decision of calling some flat out "wrong"?


The following is kinda related, maybe not.

What about inspiration? Many people talk about music being very inspiring and so on, but what does it really mean?

I link inspiration with the creation of new, and isnt the wildest interprations of a song a great result of being inspired?

While you go on with your process of interpreting the music, your thoughts evolve and you constantly invoke new ideas on your mind. It would be unthoughtful if someone would call these ideas "wrong".

In addition, the most interesting posts I have read on the albums section are those that involve new and fresh ideas. There are room for ideas that do not involve Hicks, Jung or his mother.

I have quoted this before, and Ill do it again. "The moment you think you understand a great work of art, it's dead for you."-OW
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Old 01-17-2010, 05:28 AM   #34
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Re: Black and White

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Originally Posted by 0.618 View Post
And this means?
Things may seem contradictory, but in reality they are just opposing one another. If life is about balance and wholeness, which is in my opinion is a great achievement, then you must take both sides of a coin as part of that coin. Ideas can contradict themselves as a means to a complete understanding. Just because two forces oppose each other does does mean one is right and the other wrong, just that they are in opposition.


Quote:
If you state that some are flat out wrong, then what the others are? Well, I go on and assume that you would call them "right", but that is not the real issue that I think is interesting (you could say that some are just "wrong" without labeling the other group).

Now where you set the border of what are wrong and what are not? What preliminary information you have to have, to make the decision of calling some flat out "wrong"?


The following is kinda related, maybe not.

What about inspiration? Many people talk about music being very inspiring and so on, but what does it really mean?

I link inspiration with the creation of new, and isnt the wildest interprations of a song a great result of being inspired?

While you go on with your process of interpreting the music, your thoughts evolve and you constantly invoke new ideas on your mind. It would be unthoughtful if someone would call these ideas "wrong".

In addition, the most interesting posts I have read on the albums section are those that involve new and fresh ideas. There are room for ideas that do not involve Hicks, Jung or his mother.

I have quoted this before, and Ill do it again. "The moment you think you understand a great work of art, it's dead for you."-OW
Well said.
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Old 01-29-2010, 01:08 PM   #35
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Re: Black and White

I listened to this song (Lateralus) the first time in march 2009 (well actually I started listening to tool in march) and since then i listen to Lateralus everyday.
and sometimes i listen to it on repeat for hours.
Something really freaky happened to me one night was that i listened to it for two hours straight then listened to Rosetta Stoned once then played lateralus again on my mp3 player and i closed my eyes and started rubbing my eyes with my hands and slowly I could see the outlines of my hands and when i concentrated more on it i could even see the inner lines of my hands And my eyes were closed the whole time.
I was doing all this but wasn't fully aware of it because i was lost in the lyrics and music of lateralus. The moment i was fully aware of what i was doing I freaked out and couldn't see the illusion again. So i got scared, turned off the song and went to sleep then woke up with a dream at six in the morning. I forgot every detail in the dream the moment i opened my eyes (like the DMT experiance in rosetta stoned) LOL....

But I do remember what I was doing in the Dream. I was searching for Jesus.
Thats all that i remember.
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Old 01-29-2010, 02:06 PM   #36
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Re: Black and White

When one searches for something/someone, it doesn't mean that the object/person one is looking for exists.

Even if it refers to Jesus, Atlantis or the Loch Ness Monster.
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Old 01-30-2010, 12:43 AM   #37
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Re: Black and White

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Originally Posted by Rolo View Post
When one searches for something/someone, it doesn't mean that the object/person one is looking for exists.

Even if it refers to Jesus, Atlantis or the Loch Ness Monster.
But dreams have messages for the dreamer, searching for jesus does not literary mean that you will wake up and start your search for jesus(who according to you does not exist, but according to me he does not exist in this world, but in another) the message must be something else only good dream interpreters can interpret these kinds of dreams.

I just wrote my strange experience, I didn't say that I was gonna start searching for Jesus.
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Old 01-30-2010, 01:25 PM   #38
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Re: Black and White

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Originally Posted by boongus View Post
But dreams have messages for the dreamer, searching for jesus does not literary mean that you will wake up and start your search for jesus(who according to you does not exist, but according to me he does not exist in this world, but in another) the message must be something else only good dream interpreters can interpret these kinds of dreams.

I just wrote my strange experience, I didn't say that I was gonna start searching for Jesus.
If you thought i was mentioning you wanting to search for Jesus as a physical person, you were wrong.
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Old 01-30-2010, 01:32 PM   #39
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Re: Black and White

in my dreams i'm just searching for myself in the universal mind
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Old 02-02-2010, 12:19 PM   #40
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Re: Black and White

The truth of our prejudice could be the lie of another prejudice. Opinion is based on prejudice therefore two opposing viewpoints will never converge at the same point within the same idea. An opinion is shaped based from the way someone perceives certain information. However, the lens in which we look through to see the world is the way that we interpret information.

Think of it like this. If you have a coke can on the table and you have a group of people sitting around it everyone can see a different part of the coke can, this is their interpretation of what the coke can is. However, since no one can see the entire coke can they have an incomplete understanding of the can as a whole. It's important to try to understand someone elses frame of reference because you can use their interpretation to build a model of their context. You can also begin to see more of the can. We all lock ourselves into our perception and defend it to the death... that seems to be ego driven to me. Everyone throws around the idea of "think for yourself" but no one is internalizing the idea. Quit thinking for yourself with only a small piece of the big picture, find the obvious logic or the obvious flaw in someone elses perception and then attack the flaw NOT THE INDIVIDUAL. Give them an alternative context, don't force your opinion on them as superior! That's forcing your context, and its the same thing that so many spend every waking moment of their lives bitching about. No one wants someone telling them how they're wrong or how they should see things. Opposition can be used as a constructive tool, but few are using it correctly.

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