Originally Posted by deuceman

I have been listening to Opiate and Undertow, and also this bootleg Opium Den album, and it's incredible how the band has evolved from that time. Some of it good, some bad (Submachine will be blowing his load over this).

The songs back then, especially Opium Den and Opiate, are so raw, not clumsy, but not as tight. Maynard's vocals are so passionate, so full of belief in what he is saying. You know, like these guys give a shit and they are putting everything into what they're playing and singing.

On Undertow, again, MJK's vocals are SO different.

Then fast forward to 10,000 Days. The musicianship is so much more advanced, the recording studio so much more professional, MJK's voice is really different.

And yet.....I can't help but feel that it's taken some of the raw human emotion out of the whole thing. Back then they were trying to be discovered, trying to succeed, etc. Now, with 10,000 Days, it's more like they've made it and it seems more like hard work.

Bah, I don't know if anybody will agree / beat me / give me shit. Probably....you're all so cynical and quick to move in like a pack of rabid dogs!

Originally Posted by YURAKAPTIV

I think it's you who can't feel the "soul" in Lateralus.I'm completely opposite,I can't stand Undertow,it's so lifeless and generic sounding to me.sounds like many other rock records out there.

Originally Posted by mARtYr

tell me you're joking right?!?!

Originally Posted by Agent_202

Whats wrong with slayer?

Originally Posted by Exegesis

reading comprehension.

did i say there was something wrong?

read it again.

Originally Posted by Agent_202

my responce was ment to read as a joke, not actual puzzlement.

Originally Posted by paraflux

Good for you, knot of vipers, for having an opinion.

Now, to the OP, I have yet to see a band that doesnt change over time, doesnt appear to be less... hungry? Because they simply arent hungry. They are fed. They are secure. They can explore now to their heart's content, which was part of the problem earlier on in their lives. You cant stay angry forever, especially if you are feeding yourself.

Originally Posted by Agent_202

Exegesis- I think i like it better when you're ripping on others and i can read it and laugh. we should go back to that formula.

truce?

Originally Posted by Exegesis

i wasn't ripping on you, was I?

ok, direct me to somebody to destroy.

Originally Posted by researchtriangle

Yes. Maynard's vocals on Undertow are PASSIONATE. That quality of his voice is nowhere on 10,000 Days. Like the 'woaaaAHHHHH' in the middle of 4 Degrees. Love that shit.

Originally Posted by Exegesis

You just relate to Undertow more than 10,000 Days. That means you are still stuck in that particular mode of thought that Maynard was over a decade ago. Sounds like you haven't really made any progress.

Originally Posted by researchtriangle

God damn hippies.

Originally Posted by researchtriangle

You're an idiot. Your sig proves this.

God damn hippies.

Originally Posted by Visceral9

I'm always baffled by how much Maynard's vocals changed from Undertow to Aenima/Lateralus/10000 Days. It's like he found this whole new melodic territory that he had always repressed or something. And it's not like the music on Aenima got softer to accomodate this either, since even his belting sounded different and much more refined. On Opiate and Undertow he had this weird accent and emphasis.......kind of difficult to explain. I think of his voice during that soft mid-section of H, or the "I must persuade you another wayyyyy" in Pushit and am amazed at the transformation. You would never have thought such dynamics were possible after listening to older Tool.

I just can't see the fondness for that old vocal style. Perhaps in moderation (we briefly hear Undertow Maynard in The Pot and just before the breakdown in Jambi), but I much prefer the new Maynard. Every single song on 10000 Days is sung in a different style, just as every song on the album is different from one another. The same certainly cannot be said for Undertow.

Originally Posted by RidetheRedshift

Tools evolution is 'human'. I've done a fair amount of babbling around here regarding chakras, pendullums and heart/center. If you combine these ideas and then combine that to what it is to be human and grow over time. You see how in the beginning of our lives we are 'hungry' (base chakra spectrum) from there the pendullum swings (or the kundalini rises or whatever) as we eat from the tree of knowledge in an effort to understand (head chakra spectrum) and there we concentrate on understanding the complexities of life using the tool of our brains. Then once we get there we sometimes end up overthinking, overanalyzing because like a drug that can bring you some degree of enlightenment but cannot take you 'all the way' there...you can get addicted to it and find yourself outside of yourself (separate the body from the mind). And so in the end we find the only true solution is a return to center or heart. 10000 days is a perfect example.

I could go on and on...I usually do. But maybe because I haven't been high for the past week and a half (proud of a week and a half...pathetic) these mental musings aren't that entertaining anymore. I want to 'do' something. Not just talk about it. One of tools big influences was King Crimson and a perfect example of all this is idea is expressed in their song Elephant Talk.

____________

Elephant Talk
Talk, it's only talk
Arguments, agreements, advice, answers,
Articulate announcements
It's only talk

Talk, it's only talk
Babble, burble, banter, bicker bicker bicker
Brouhaha, balderdash, ballyhoo
It's only talk
Back talk

Talk talk talk, it's only talk
Comments, cliches, commentary, controversy
Chatter, chit-chat, chit-chat, chit-chat,
Conversation, contradiction, criticism
It's only talk
Cheap talk

Talk, talk, it's only talk
Debates, discussions
These are words with a D this time
Dialog, duologue, diatribe,
Dissention, declamation
Double talk, double talk

Talk, talk, it's all talk
Too much talk
Small talk
Talk that trash
Expressions, editorials, explanations, exclamations, exaggerations
It's all talk
Elephant talk, elephant talk, elephant talk

_____________

What else is there to say?

Originally Posted by deuceman

I have been listening to Opiate and Undertow, and also this bootleg Opium Den album, and it's incredible how the band has evolved from that time. Some of it good, some bad (Submachine will be blowing his load over this).

The songs back then, especially Opium Den and Opiate, are so raw, not clumsy, but not as tight. Maynard's vocals are so passionate, so full of belief in what he is saying. You know, like these guys give a shit and they are putting everything into what they're playing and singing.

On Undertow, again, MJK's vocals are SO different.

Then fast forward to 10,000 Days. The musicianship is so much more advanced, the recording studio so much more professional, MJK's voice is really different.

And yet.....I can't help but feel that it's taken some of the raw human emotion out of the whole thing. Back then they were trying to be discovered, trying to succeed, etc. Now, with 10,000 Days, it's more like they've made it and it seems more like hard work.

Bah, I don't know if anybody will agree / beat me / give me shit. Probably....you're all so cynical and quick to move in like a pack of rabid dogs!

Originally Posted by deuceman

with 10,000 Days, it's more like they've made it and it seems more like hard work.

Originally Posted by deuceman

I have been listening to Opiate and Undertow, and also this bootleg Opium Den album, and it's incredible how the band has evolved from that time. Some of it good, some bad (Submachine will be blowing his load over this).

The songs back then, especially Opium Den and Opiate, are so raw, not clumsy, but not as tight. Maynard's vocals are so passionate, so full of belief in what he is saying. You know, like these guys give a shit and they are putting everything into what they're playing and singing.

On Undertow, again, MJK's vocals are SO different.

Then fast forward to 10,000 Days. The musicianship is so much more advanced, the recording studio so much more professional, MJK's voice is really different.

And yet.....I can't help but feel that it's taken some of the raw human emotion out of the whole thing. Back then they were trying to be discovered, trying to succeed, etc. Now, with 10,000 Days, it's more like they've made it and it seems more like hard work.

Bah, I don't know if anybody will agree / beat me / give me shit. Probably....you're all so cynical and quick to move in like a pack of rabid dogs!

Originally Posted by submachine

Exactly as I've been saying, it SOUNDS like its hard work, like its "follow the TooL formula" like, as Adam admitted, it was an extremely lengthy process of simply plucking, editing, and arranging random riffs.

Only in Vicarious is the sum greater than the parts, which is why it has been suspected of being written years previous to the rest, near Lateralus.

Originally Posted by leefnaspleaf

I think it's funny that you just pick the worst song and keep talking and talking and talking about it..

Originally Posted by McRoggles

You are ;)

Undertow should be recorded with nowadays technology. The record sounds extremely dated but when Tool plays Sober live it is so much better and doesn't sound old at all.

I don't agree with your first post, Opiate/Undertow was angry emotion now it is more subtle emotion.

Originally Posted by knot0fvipers

no, they just arent that good and/or inspired.
sorry fan boys

Originally Posted by paraflux

Good for you, knot of vipers, for having an opinion.

Now, to the OP, I have yet to see a band that doesnt change over time, doesnt appear to be less... hungry? Because they simply arent hungry. They are fed. They are secure. They can explore now to their heart's content, which was part of the problem earlier on in their lives. You cant stay angry forever, especially if you are feeding yourself.