Sorry if this is repeated anywhere, but there are too many posts to read.

There are definite references to the Bible in this song, specifically the book of John.

Here are some key verses:

John 8:7 "When they kept on questioning him [Jesus], he straightened up and said to them, 'If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her [a prostitute]." ....moments later, in verse 10: "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" "No one, sir." "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

John 8:23 Jesus says, "you are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in our sins." Throughout the book of John, Jesus refers to himself as the Son of Man.

John 11:43 ...Jesus called in a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!" The dead man came out...

John 14:6 Jesus answered,"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. from now on, you do know him and have seen him."
The still skeptical disciple Philip says, "Lord, show us the Father that will be enough for us." To which Jesus responds, "...Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father."

Jesus also encourages prayer in solitude, not in manners that are overly ostentatious, even though he preaches on mountaintops and in the Temple. He also says Judge not lest ye be judged, but a few chapters later condemns whole cities for not repenting (see book of Matthew).

Finally, in Matthew 12:25 Jesus says "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand."

Analysis:
Robbing the grave of Lazarus is fairly straightforward, and I suppose Jesus' resurrection could be argued as robbing another grave.
Snow the cradle, in the context of this song, might mean allowing death elsewhere. In other words, even though Jesus happily raises the dead, he also allows miscarriage, death in childbirth, etc. This is a bit of a stretch, admittedly, so if anyone knows the origin of the term 'snow the cradle' I'd be happy to hear about it.

Foot in mouth lends itself to Jesus' apparent flip-flopping. Is he the son of God? the son of man? Is he heavenly, or a prophet, or just a crazy man? Sometimes he says he is of the father, while other times he says he is a son of man. Sometimes he says that he is the only way to the Father, while other times he says that humans are capable of reaching the lord through penitence.

This gossamer claim by Jesus that he is the Son of God seems to be Maynard's "house of cards and glass". If Jesus' claim as the son of God is debatable, then perhaps he should heed his own advice and not cast stones. Maynard must be implying that Jesus is with guilt, and therefore a hypocrite.

Tears of cozened indigo seems to refer to the two specific instances in which Jesus weeps. He weeps for the people of Jerusalem for not believing in him, and he also weeps right before he resurrects Lazarus, but not because of the death of his friend, but because he was moved by Lazarus' sister's grief. These do not necessarily seem to be the most sincere tears ever wept. At the very least, Jesus seems to weep for the wrong reasons... Tears of cozened Indigo could also refer to the shroud of Turin, but I don't think there's much Indigo about it.

Someone else posted on Kangaroo courts as courts in which the outcome is predetermined. Jesus' trial at the Sanhedrin? A kangaroo court is also one which does not proceed along proper lines of procedure -- Jesus was condemned by the Sanhedrin on the Sabbath, entirely outside of normal procedure. Jesus' insistence that He is the way, truth and light would seem to preclude otherwise innocent people from Heaven, even if they do not believe in Him. The Sanhedrin (the jury) does not believe him, so they are probably condemned from ever reaching heaven; It would also seem to condemn all those who never condemned or judged others, but who simply did not choose Jesus as a savior. It would also seem to condemn those who try to find redemption/salvation/heaven through routes other than Jesus. Now what kind of a Son of God is that?

He's guilty as the government.....Jesus is responsible for his own downfall; he brought his crucifixion on himself.....or so Maynard seems to sing. Jesus claims to be the son of God and the son of Man. In his own words, he is divided against himself, and this hypocrisy leads not only to his own crucifixion, but also to the general skepticism against what he preached. If Christianity is a religion based on Jesus being the dual Son of God and Son of Man and the only way to the Father, then Christianity certainly is a house of cards and glass, and people who invoke it should be careful not to cast their own stones, lest the whole house come crashing down on top of them.

Still don't know about lemons, liar/lawyer, and plenty more. Criticisms and additions welcomed.

terribly interesting thoughts my friend. too long to read it all, but nonetheless. the references i know, but never applied them. I think I will. BE back shortly.

mtm

rob the grave- taking Jesus' body from the cave. A religion based on deception. I cant get passed that. i don't know. Burn the evidence down. what was the evidence and how did they destroy it. I'm not a biblical scholar. Solomons temple was torched. relevance? i don't know. HELP! or don't. sorry for the dp.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...STORMCROW2.jpg :)

while I think reading the INSANE Biblical imagery in the OP might be tedious and fruitless (especially because the song doesn't mention anything that has ever led me to pick up my Bible) I do think the GRAVE/CRADLE idea is interesting though not especially applicable.

Sidenote: Jesus wept many times out of compassion (especially at the garden of Gethsemane when he sweated blood?) and the times you mentioned seem to be, contextually, incredibly emotional and truthful times of tears.

I agree. I will say though, that I like the digging being done here. I think the meaning of this particular song can be hard to find. I've heard a lot of conjecture though.

One thing I will say, if this song is about Jesus and his flaws, it makes more sense following 10,000 Days than I had previously thought. I'd like to think of "the Savior" as being flawed, it makes me more convinced that he knew what it was like to be human. Don't take that anywhere, that's just a personal opinion.

I agree with the opinion insofar as humanity is linked essentially with flaw and failure, but I personally think the idea of a Savior who was tempted and knew what it was to be human (even sweated blood because of his temptation and desire for that which was not his purpose) yet had the faith to abstain to the point of death makes the sacrifice even richer. I think we all wish we had the ability and presence of mind to do as we would want to do, not as we usually do.


(sorry for taking that somewhere, but it stuck out as something to be discussed)

Wearethestories...Here as previously discussed is my perfect example of BIBLE THUMPERS. Not that I necessarily am anti-religion. But I can't stand when people like the ones in this thread and others prior will try to find anything the possibly can that has one tiny resemblance to something that has to do with the bible and suddenly it's a religious song. You've got to be fucking kidding me. You want religious music, go to church and listen to the choir and fall asleep. TOOL is/are not religious, face it people. Just because he references things related to religion doesn't mean he's singing the fucking gospel. Plain and simple...These religious nuts just get on my nerves with this. Maynard's converted or a born again, has he pulled a Reznor (whom by the way did NOT turn religious EITHER). You can make a reference to the bible or a god and that doesn't mean by ANY means that they are religious. If I said something about the ocean, does that make me a fucking pirate?

Not only have I supported you in other forums, Inner_Eulogy, when I think you might have a point, but are being a prick about it, but I have never made ANY sort of claims that TOOL, Maynard, or anyone else that has any relation to the band being in ANY way Christian or religious. I don't even think there are valid claims for such (seeing as Maynard himself two years ago pretended to "meet Jesus" for the April Fool's joke).

That said, there are DEFINITE themes that have Biblical bases within many of TOOL's songs. AGAIN, PLEASE ACTUALLY READ WHAT I AM WRITING AND NOT INTO ANYTHING THAT I AM SAYING. 'Jambi', 'Wings/10KDays', 'Rosetta Stoned', 'Right In Two', 'Eulogy', 'Opiate', 'Reflection', 'Prison Sex', 'Sober', 'Disgustipated', and ESPECIALLY '4 Degrees' all have different levels of themes that relate directly and indirectly to stories, parables, verses from the Bible. THIS IS FACT. We all acknowledge Maynard grew up with his mother, Judith Marie, and that she raised him some sort of Baptist. These images and stories are ones that he grew up with, so it is only natural for them to occur in his music and lyrics (check out most of the first APC album even).

The themes and allusions are there, but they are not necessarily positive, and often negative. Simply because I am a Christian does not mean that everything I see/hear that in some way reflects (or refracts) what I believe is in support of what I believe. How narrow-minded would I be?

And SPEAKING of narrow-minded, shall we return to your post?

Is there some sort of prejudice that you'd like to talk about with a psychiatrist maybe? Something against Christians that makes you lash out at someone who is merely suggesting (and not even in my previous posts) that in order to more fully understand the allusions and themes that Maynard has pulled from Scripture (which is what I'll call it) or made reference to in his lyrics, one MIGHT want to look at their origin? Is there something that makes you so hateful towards those of faith as opposed to you (though I imagine you would vehemently deny such accusations as you prefaced your "rant" with
But back to the point. You say:
I don't think anyone here has ever expressed a desire to listen to TOOL and a desire for "religious music" as one in the same. I know that I don't listen to TOOL for religious music - I happen to think that they have an incredibly unique worldview that is worth deeper study. They are incredibly talented musicians who put more into music that I ever thought possible. And I have yet to meet one of your "religious nuts" who claims that TOOL is 'singing the fucking gospel'. TOOL aren't - and I'd be surprised if any sane person would claim otherwise.

So please, for your sake and everyone else's who happen to stumble upon your bigoted horseshit condemnation of my responses to Cheesegrater, think before you speak and try to actually respond to what people post and not to your own pre- and misconceptions of certain groups of people (whom you probably shouldn't lump together anyway). They might surprise you, pirate.

and happy birthday, btw.

Ok, so maybe you got a point. I honestly don't know why I've grown so defensive about religion. Maybe it's just something to lash out some of my daily stress onto something. I guess I got some demons to exercise.


You're right, I should be ashamed of myself (I mean that half cynically and half seriously). I too can be a hypocrite as I do try to respect others and preach that as well but I also find myself to attack people for no good reason as well. Life's been a ticking time bomb of stress for me and I've grown somewhat bitter these last few years I guess. My apologies.

And thank you!

Accepted, man.
*PEACE OFFERING*

And I hope the stress dies down for you, sounds really rough.

I definately agree with you 'stories. I get so annoyed and frustrated with contemporary/mainstream Christain music because it is the same songs sung by the same artists. It just feels fake to me. So when I go and listen to Tool, I am almost refreshed because it feels more real and from the heart. I find this is true especially with 10,000 Days because of the content/context of what Maynard is singing about. It just feels like he is struggling still with his mother's faith and how she could have put up with a seemingly, to him, uncaring, heartless, distant God. It seems like he's trying to figure out what made her stick with Him, and he's showing immense respect and admiration to her for that, "tell them their pillar of faith has ascended."

And even with songs like Ænima where he seems to be pissed at the world and he's trying to figure out how to convey to the world that he is such, it makes me think about the issues he's singing about and what do I believe about that issue. And that is something I don't feel I get with mainstream Christian music, I don't get that challenge to my worldview. And for that I respect Tool a whole heck of a lot more than a lot of the Christian artists out there.

Anyway...

I also think it's awesome that you and Inner_Eulogy were able to end your differences like men and not like a couple of middle school girls!! Cheers to you both.

Peace

Well, I'm glad all that got resolved before I made it back. Not trying to step on a fresh wound, but people really come across with some really scathing remarks on people's opinions on these threads. And not to say I told you so, but that is exactly the reason I put a "please don't take this anywhere" disclaimer.
Let me use this as an example to elaborate my point. I happen to know that 'Stories really believes the lyric in the end of "Right in Two" to be "BENCHED along with patience and reason." He however knows I think its "Picture love with patience and reeason." Now remember I'm using this purely as an example, for the love of God, if someone mentions their opinion on this lyric, they've missed the whole point. I know that 'Stories really believes that to be the case, and I really see no point on arguing too much until we get official lyrics. Then he can tell me "In your FACE! Cheese. In your face! I knew it was "Benched along," and I'll be completely fine with that. : )
Until then, its healthy for us to realize it's just fucking words to a song. (that happens to be one of the best in history, but still...) What you should be asking yourself: Are words to songs and opinions on their subject matter the way in which we judge people these days? I think somethings terribly wrong when one hears someone's interpretation of art and they scoff at them and chastise them for supposedly not having the intellectual capacity comprehend the true meaning.
The guy talking about Lateralus and the running high theme, Inner totally trashed him. Inner... you seem to choose to not have any faith in anybody here. You should know that most everybody posting didn't think "Lateralus is about running" I looked at it more as entertaining an idea. At least it was original, and I think that is why people kept the thread going. But just to elaborate: Lateralus, Golden Ratio (graphed is a spiral, spiral can be equated as eternal), Fib. sequence.. I know man, believe me, I wrote an A+ paper on it Comp II last semester called "Riding the Spiral."

The point I'm trying to make is, everybody does their own research and has a different set of personal beliefs they apply to Tool's music. The inpretations and feelings people have about it are as unique as our DNA as a result.

As far as the whole religion thing goes: If anybody wants to try to find the "religious meanings" in their songs, let them. I really don't see why not. It's not taking away from my experience. Besides, contrary to popular belief, Christians get bashed enough as it is. It's like people automatically assume that if someone is Christian those people shut all the doors to their mind. And the people who bash Christians no nothing of that pain. It's tormenting to know that people constantly put a taint on something you say just because they know your personal beliefs, and they don't agree with them. I'm not even Christian, but the ones that are busy trying to be "cool, calm and collected ones" are being bashed the most these days via forums like these.

Bravo....here's a "You're #1" sticker

Praise the almighty Cheesegreater....no...seriously....I wish I could have come across that clearly in previous posts. The problem was Inner, he was clouding my mind with frustration...haha...trying to brainwash me into becoming spiteful and ignorant like himself...

Cheese, apparantly you have not noticed the point of this forum. The point is to get everyone to post their opinion and then attack them for it. Then, after you attack them, you move in slowly by trying to prove that you are far more intellectually gifted than anyone else here and have more capability of interpretation. Then, when they try to tell you their point, you snatch all dignity from them and tell them they need a therapist, are stupid, and need a "swift kick in the head", among other intelligent remarks i've seen on this forum.

LMFAO, Yeah, I think I get the point. I love how succintly you describe the frustration people go through here when trying to make a point. You've made me laugh on more than one occasion, and that's appreciated.

P.S. Thanks for the sticker Inner ;)

Well that's good, finally someone who has a sense of humor on here. Wonderful news.

Maynard likes lemons.

Thanks for havin my/our back!

Hey, no problem at all. I know it's hip and alternative to always run Christians in to the ground but fuck man, they're just people with different beliefs.

If only some of us Christians were like you, a lot of people, I think, wouldn't hate us so much.

People care and love and look out for each other better in bars than they do in churches sometimes!!

I'm really confused about this whole supposed reconciliation that Maynard has allegedly made with christianity. Is everyone somehow now saying that MJK's April fool's day gag had some truth to it? If you look at Maynard's Myspace page Myspace.com/censorshipisacancer or his puscifer site you see that he still has the same old firebreathing contempt for christianity as he always did. Also, i tend to sense a great deal of sarcasm in most of MJK's lyrics. To me, (wings pt. 2) is about someone finally moving beyond the jesus, christianity myth: "tell them their pillar of faith has ascended." I think Maynard probably laughs when he sees all this speculation by people who seem to think they can understand the dynamics of his relationship with his mother. Is it not just as plausible that he was somehow able to free his mother from christian indoctrination before her death and now is speaking sarcastically to a fake christ character whom she or he has moved beyond.

"Listen to the tales and romanticize,
How we follow the path of the hero.
Boast about the day when the rivers overrun.
How we rise to the height of our halo."

Specifically christianity, but as a staple of all organized religions is a centralized historical figure/savior/hero whom we romanticize and tell tales of such as noah and the flood (rivers overruning) and whom we "Listen to the tales (allegories) and rationalize our way into the arms of the savior" by inventing reasons to defy logic/reason and science for the sake of the Jesus myth.

Also, as an aside, I too think this is their best album as they get progressively better. I actually haven't been able to stop listening to or getting bored of this album since it came out! And I think that some people seem to think its trendy/intelligent/feux-intellectual to automatically reject the newest album. So many keep saying that they liked Lateralus and don't like this and then when the next album comes out they'll probably say the same about that in respect to 10,000 days. I realize I'm making an offpoint but I have really noticed this trend amongst Tool fans who seem to think that they are the truest fans if they pretend that Opiate is their favourite album and 10,000 "sucks".....

/\ I'm not sure I agree with you that Maynard has a sarcastic tone toward his mother's faith. I saw them live a few months ago, and the passion and intense feeling I felt in Wings was very moving and touching. I would agree that he has less than happy feelings toward organized religion in general But 10,000 Days, specifically Wings, seems to be about him recognizing his mother's faith and how that carried her through, and that no matter what Maynard did or how much he hated her religion, he respects her for stickin with it. Hear me, I think he's reconciling with the feelings he may have had toward his mother because of her faith, he's not reconciling with her faith! Just some thoughts.

What I was trying to say is that I shy away from any speculation about MJK's relationship with his mother because a)I have no idea, and b)I believe he is the type of person that would deliberately not convey such specifics of his relationship to the public through lyrics or otherwise. So I think that as far as the tone of the song, yes, it is touching and conciliatory as far as his mother is concerned in her life and death. I do, however, sense that this song is a sarcastic/tongue-in-cheek message to the mythical Jesus character saying "here you go, you had such a strong grip on her all of these years, now she's yours even though you aren't real." As with all of his lyrics, there are multiple meanings and messages; some for the listening public, some with inside references probably only intended for one or a few people. So, much to the frustration of the probing and curious posters on this site, some specific references are not meant to be understood by us and wont be. Any effort to dissect certain lyrical aspects come off as either completely wrong or a real stretch. Don't get me wrong, the search for answers and the discussion in itself of such items is invaluable so I'm not calling for people to cease from searching/probing/analyzing, I just think that the ide that somehow MJK has now come to appreciate christianity because he has a working knowledge of and references the bible and the importance of christianity in this world means just about jack shit in terms of his own spirtituality. The same way any person in this world should be just as knowledgable about important/influential/affecting groups that they don't agree with as the ones they do. Negativity or positivity has no bearing on how important they are in terms of followers and agenda etc.

Makes sense...I may just meld that with my own thoughts!

I think people are regarding the schools of logical thought (hierarcy of sciences) like scripture these days. People choosing the "Jesus Myth" just so they can "defy" logic. Why not just say people who believe in Jesus just so they don't have to/want to think. I have a friend who is a "devout" physicist. The reason I choose "devout" to describe him is because he preaches nothing but "truth" to you (at least he whole-heartedly believes it to be) and any other possibilities outside logic-reasoning-science are deemed "absurd" or "illogical" or just plain "that doesn't make ANY sense at all." and insert a piercingly loud cynical laugh.
Let's face it. The times we live in now, we have scientists that feel like they have all the answers. (If you were to ask them if they thought they indeed did have all the answers, of course they'd say "no", but a common feeling in the pursuit of much knowledge is being rather smug.) I could explain this further, but I really need to get some Zzzs...

I feel this song is simply Maynard coming to terms with his mothers beliefs. I think if you do some research you'll find Maynard most likely believes in a "god" "higher power" "transcendental intelligence" whatever strikes your fancy. Sarcasm maybe, but tongue and cheek is really a poor way to define it. Cynical fits it rather well. "If you see your makers face tonight" lines tell me that "This woman, this mother of mine believed in a Hell, and I think she might have even thought of herself as a bad person at one time or another." He's saying look that motherfucker in the eye and tell him that you never lived a lie and surely saved one. She is the pillar of this faith of Christianity, and if you EXIST (if only for her afterlife or what have you) let her have the life she I feel she deserves.

It doesn't necessarily mean he's accepting the ideas, more approving it in his mother's case. To elaborate, to say "I'm okay with this now, but I will never see it your way, and that okay with me to, I still love you.... yada yada..

So tired guys. Take everything I say with a grain of salt if my ideas don't jive to well with you.Just a lot of conjecture.

Peace

Lots of grammatical errors. Feel free to break out the ruler! Sorry guys.

This sort of reminds me of when my grandfather was dying. He was never a religious man until he was in the hospital with leukemia. Once he found out he didn't have much time left, he had a priest come and comfort him with the "promises of god". And, much to my surprise, it did comfort him quite a bit. I don't think the point of this song is of any opinion or belief, but reminiscing on the comfort that could have been provided by the beliefs of others in a situation of someone dying. I remember the way I felt when my grandfather was dying and every feeling of opposition I had towards certain beliefs was out the window. It was more of an appreciation that he had something to make him feel better under the current circumstances. So, to me, this song could be a song of comfort, as sarcastic as the lyrics may seem, it sounds as if "Maynard" is using these words as comfort to "his mother". Apart from the lyrics, the feeling I get from this song is definately not judgemental, or religious at all. It's beautiful, it's very neutral and surprising.

I agree. I never said that "science" is the only true religion. Obviously humans have a capacity for spiritualism and intuition. I think that you were right when you said that Christianity (paraphrasing) is a way for people to trick themselves into thinking that they have found all of the answers without asking the right questions or thinking etc. And I don't necessarily think that logic and reason and spirituality are mutually exclusive. Many of the most profound Shamans/Philosophers and thinkers are incredibly logical. What I was merely saying is that it is the search for answers and not the answers themselves that provide catharsis. And yes he's talking to his mother in the song but he's also addressing the iconic jesus that he probably feels has taken her from him for much of his life and now finally has his way.

Well no shit....and that's EXACTLY what I've been trying to tell everyone that keeps arguing with me. The point that I've BEEN arguing were the people saying Maynard was now a Christian or is now religious because he sang a song that had religious references and/or metaphors within it. He was paying his highest respects to his mother for her own strength in standing for her faith til the very end, even as deposed as he is the the thought that it got her nowhere. He loved his mother very much I'm sure and Wings 1&2 is his way of showing this. It's the people running around and blatantly stating he's a christian now because of it that pisses me off because it should be more then obvious that he's not.

THANK YOU

It's about time some people on here with some freaking common fucking sense showed up to post.

Inner, why does it piss you off? I'm not agreeing with what they are saying but I would honestly like a good reason from you of why it would piss you off. Yes, it is stupid that one would claim that someone is religious due to slight connotation, but it doesn't piss me off. Wouldn't that be taking it a bit too far? Who can honestly say they know that Maynard HATES religion? Unless you were taking Tool's music and applying it in Maynard terms. I don't know, seems a bit shallow to me...

/agrees

Seems like it's hard for people to understand that we use a lot of references when we express ourselves that we don't necessarily accept or believe in.