Go Back  The Tool Page: Opinion » Tool » Albums » 10,000 Days
User Name
Password
Reply
HeavenLost's Avatar HeavenLost
05-13-2006, 07:51 AM
Reply With Quote

Thank you, guitarpete987. I never considered it might not be first person.
__________________
So good to see you once again, I thought that you were hiding.
You thought that I had run away chasing the tail of dogma.
Old 05-13-2006, 07:51 AM   #121
Level 5 - Deep Thinker
 
HeavenLost's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: FL
Posts: 63
Bincount™: 0
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Thank you, guitarpete987. I never considered it might not be first person.
__________________
So good to see you once again, I thought that you were hiding.
You thought that I had run away chasing the tail of dogma.
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote
pickle's Avatar pickle
05-13-2006, 07:52 AM
Reply With Quote

Maybe Maynard is Christ returning..........yeah right!!!!! Accept your opinion mate but the music and lyrics point me in a whole different direction. Chin up though good try.
__________________
Be a good player........ If not catch a train to fuck off central........ Cause your in the eye of a Shit Typhoon and your a low shit system.
Old 05-13-2006, 07:52 AM   #122
Level 4 - Thinker
 
pickle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Gap / Bris
Posts: 27
Bincount™: 1
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Maybe Maynard is Christ returning..........yeah right!!!!! Accept your opinion mate but the music and lyrics point me in a whole different direction. Chin up though good try.
__________________
Be a good player........ If not catch a train to fuck off central........ Cause your in the eye of a Shit Typhoon and your a low shit system.
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote
MypugsAreSmarterThanYou's Avatar MypugsAreSmarterThanYou
05-13-2006, 07:54 AM
Reply With Quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
Through all the years I've been listening to Tool I never thought I would hear what I'm hearing on 10,000 Days. Completely out of the question, but here is it from Maynards own mouth.

Ladies and gentlemen and undefinable, Maynard James Keenan is preaching the word of God. There's a truck load of proof I can give for this, but in true Tool fashion I want you to use your brain and find it for yourself. Now, let me wet your appetite and set you on your way.

We all know that Judith Marie was a devout Christian, and if here life wasn't a lie ('she never lived a lie') then her life must haven been true.

There are many more of there little gems. Listen, study and think, Tool has always tried to encourage you to do that.
LMAO
__________________
"here i am,expecting just a little bit...mmm..too much from...the wounded..."
Old 05-13-2006, 07:54 AM   #123
Level 9 - Obstreperous
 
MypugsAreSmarterThanYou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: canada
Posts: 1,317
Bincount™: 116
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
Through all the years I've been listening to Tool I never thought I would hear what I'm hearing on 10,000 Days. Completely out of the question, but here is it from Maynards own mouth.

Ladies and gentlemen and undefinable, Maynard James Keenan is preaching the word of God. There's a truck load of proof I can give for this, but in true Tool fashion I want you to use your brain and find it for yourself. Now, let me wet your appetite and set you on your way.

We all know that Judith Marie was a devout Christian, and if here life wasn't a lie ('she never lived a lie') then her life must haven been true.

There are many more of there little gems. Listen, study and think, Tool has always tried to encourage you to do that.
LMAO
__________________
"here i am,expecting just a little bit...mmm..too much from...the wounded..."
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote
CallofCthulhu's Avatar CallofCthulhu
05-13-2006, 08:18 AM
Reply With Quote

[QUOTE=Now, let me wet your appetite and set you on your way.
[/QUOTE]
Its "whet" your appetite. And you're a dumbass. Maynard doesn't follow his mother's beliefs but he respects them. Since she is a devout Christian, according to her beliefs she wound up at the gates of Heaven. Thats it.
Old 05-13-2006, 08:18 AM   #124
Level 7 - Loquacious
 
CallofCthulhu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 248
Bincount™: 11
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

[QUOTE=Now, let me wet your appetite and set you on your way.
[/QUOTE]
Its "whet" your appetite. And you're a dumbass. Maynard doesn't follow his mother's beliefs but he respects them. Since she is a devout Christian, according to her beliefs she wound up at the gates of Heaven. Thats it.
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote
Exegesis's Avatar Exegesis
05-13-2006, 08:25 AM
Reply With Quote

Ladies and gentlemen and undefinable, Maynard James Keenan is preaching the word of God.

*NO. YOU ARE WRONG. NEXT.
Old 05-13-2006, 08:25 AM   #125
Level 9 - Obstreperous
 
Exegesis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Consciousness
Posts: 1,324
Bincount™: 52
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Ladies and gentlemen and undefinable, Maynard James Keenan is preaching the word of God.

*NO. YOU ARE WRONG. NEXT.
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote
HeavenLost's Avatar HeavenLost
05-13-2006, 08:28 AM
Reply With Quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by CallofCthulhu
Its "whet" your appetite. And you're a dumbass. Maynard doesn't follow his mother's beliefs but he respects them. Since she is a devout Christian, according to her beliefs she wound up at the gates of Heaven. Thats it.

I appologize for the misspelling, I'll fix that right away. Thanks.
__________________
So good to see you once again, I thought that you were hiding.
You thought that I had run away chasing the tail of dogma.
Old 05-13-2006, 08:28 AM   #126
Level 5 - Deep Thinker
 
HeavenLost's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: FL
Posts: 63
Bincount™: 0
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by CallofCthulhu
Its "whet" your appetite. And you're a dumbass. Maynard doesn't follow his mother's beliefs but he respects them. Since she is a devout Christian, according to her beliefs she wound up at the gates of Heaven. Thats it.

I appologize for the misspelling, I'll fix that right away. Thanks.
__________________
So good to see you once again, I thought that you were hiding.
You thought that I had run away chasing the tail of dogma.
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote
HeavenLost's Avatar HeavenLost
05-13-2006, 08:35 AM
Reply With Quote

Well since some seem inclined to merely attack what i've said instead of stepping up to the challenge of listening, studying and thinking let move on with some more reason.

Speaking of reason, let me ask you all. Would you rather come to a rational conclusion about a major decision in you life or jump to an irrational, emotion based reaction. No, im not asking anyone to 'chose now while you still have time or suffer the fate of the sinner. Repent, repent repent'

Please, no cynics.
__________________
So good to see you once again, I thought that you were hiding.
You thought that I had run away chasing the tail of dogma.
Old 05-13-2006, 08:35 AM   #127
Level 5 - Deep Thinker
 
HeavenLost's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: FL
Posts: 63
Bincount™: 0
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Well since some seem inclined to merely attack what i've said instead of stepping up to the challenge of listening, studying and thinking let move on with some more reason.

Speaking of reason, let me ask you all. Would you rather come to a rational conclusion about a major decision in you life or jump to an irrational, emotion based reaction. No, im not asking anyone to 'chose now while you still have time or suffer the fate of the sinner. Repent, repent repent'

Please, no cynics.
__________________
So good to see you once again, I thought that you were hiding.
You thought that I had run away chasing the tail of dogma.
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote
NurseJanet's Avatar NurseJanet
05-13-2006, 09:38 AM
Reply With Quote

This is all oh so heavy, man.

As long as we apes have tried to figure out why we're here and if as individuals our 70-odd years on this planet mean anything - religions rise and fall, blood is shed in the name of said religions; songs are written about life and death, and threads such as this and its many surrounding enter the loop of asking why...

As someone who had a childhood full of Sunday School, I didn't get the answers then nor do I now. The Bible offers much metaphorically about how to live one's life and how to treat others, but frankly and sadly, it functioned better as a life handbook for those NOT in modern times.

I can only live by what I do know: the power of Love, that we have a life force within us
that occupies these ape bodies of ours for roughly 7-8 decades if we're lucky; that when we die that life force MOVES, to where I do not know. (My belief comes from having been present during death, in both personal and professional situations.)

Of any modern Great Mind's point of view, this quote by Albert Einstein just about sums it up for me: "My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind."

Toss all the dogma aside - The Truth is really quite bigger than what we farting, ass-scratching lot can comprehend. I commend MJK for putting a very personal part of his life out for us to decipher, and for inspiring us to put our long-winded thoughts on threads such as these.

(edited for spelling)

Last edited by NurseJanet; 05-13-2006 at 09:43 AM..
Old 05-13-2006, 09:38 AM   #128
Level 1 - Lurker
 
NurseJanet's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 3
Bincount™: 0
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

This is all oh so heavy, man.

As long as we apes have tried to figure out why we're here and if as individuals our 70-odd years on this planet mean anything - religions rise and fall, blood is shed in the name of said religions; songs are written about life and death, and threads such as this and its many surrounding enter the loop of asking why...

As someone who had a childhood full of Sunday School, I didn't get the answers then nor do I now. The Bible offers much metaphorically about how to live one's life and how to treat others, but frankly and sadly, it functioned better as a life handbook for those NOT in modern times.

I can only live by what I do know: the power of Love, that we have a life force within us
that occupies these ape bodies of ours for roughly 7-8 decades if we're lucky; that when we die that life force MOVES, to where I do not know. (My belief comes from having been present during death, in both personal and professional situations.)

Of any modern Great Mind's point of view, this quote by Albert Einstein just about sums it up for me: "My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind."

Toss all the dogma aside - The Truth is really quite bigger than what we farting, ass-scratching lot can comprehend. I commend MJK for putting a very personal part of his life out for us to decipher, and for inspiring us to put our long-winded thoughts on threads such as these.

(edited for spelling)

Last edited by NurseJanet; 05-13-2006 at 09:43 AM..
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote
caliphornia
05-13-2006, 11:10 AM
Reply With Quote

i don't think maynard is a christian, ha. he is just writing through the eyes of his mother, or how she saw things.
Old 05-13-2006, 11:10 AM   #129
Level 5 - Deep Thinker
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: dallas
Posts: 82
Bincount™: 0
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

i don't think maynard is a christian, ha. he is just writing through the eyes of his mother, or how she saw things.
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote
omnitronic's Avatar omnitronic
05-13-2006, 11:19 AM
Reply With Quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
Look closer then just words. Find the meaning. Don't hide behind sarcasm, again, that is weakness.

Shine on forever
Shine on benevolent son (not sun)
Shine down on the broken
Shine on until the two become one
Thats about Chirst, he's the only benevolent son that shines forever and ever, Amen.

Damn my eyes if they should compromise a fulcrom. In other words 'If thine eye offends thee, pluck it out', right from the Bible.

Keep looking you'll find many many more.
He is singing about his son. The whole song is about his son.
__________________
"So, throughout life, our worst weaknesses and meannesses are usually committed for the sake of the people whom we most despise." -Charles Dickens
Old 05-13-2006, 11:19 AM   #130
Level 11 - Clamorous
 
omnitronic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Inside the ant hill
Posts: 3,153
Bincount™: 362
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
Look closer then just words. Find the meaning. Don't hide behind sarcasm, again, that is weakness.

Shine on forever
Shine on benevolent son (not sun)
Shine down on the broken
Shine on until the two become one
Thats about Chirst, he's the only benevolent son that shines forever and ever, Amen.

Damn my eyes if they should compromise a fulcrom. In other words 'If thine eye offends thee, pluck it out', right from the Bible.

Keep looking you'll find many many more.
He is singing about his son. The whole song is about his son.
__________________
"So, throughout life, our worst weaknesses and meannesses are usually committed for the sake of the people whom we most despise." -Charles Dickens
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote
omnitronic's Avatar omnitronic
05-13-2006, 11:21 AM
Reply With Quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by paraflux
This is gonna be weird if we get a bunch of christians in here now thinking that Tool is a christian band. I can see it now.
We will systematically remove them...like you would any kind of termite or roach.
__________________
"So, throughout life, our worst weaknesses and meannesses are usually committed for the sake of the people whom we most despise." -Charles Dickens
Old 05-13-2006, 11:21 AM   #131
Level 11 - Clamorous
 
omnitronic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Inside the ant hill
Posts: 3,153
Bincount™: 362
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by paraflux
This is gonna be weird if we get a bunch of christians in here now thinking that Tool is a christian band. I can see it now.
We will systematically remove them...like you would any kind of termite or roach.
__________________
"So, throughout life, our worst weaknesses and meannesses are usually committed for the sake of the people whom we most despise." -Charles Dickens
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote
omnitronic's Avatar omnitronic
05-13-2006, 11:25 AM
Reply With Quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
Well it becomes a rant again. I'll try to drag it back on track.
The WHOLE point of this is to see the connections from Tool to Christianity. Someone doesn't tell you they were saved from 'the devil and his own' by a 'benevolent son' who 'changed that all for me. lifted me up, turned me round' and not mean Christ. Lifting you up and turning you around, bringing out of darkness; all that is what Christ does. Maynard leaves no room for debate in that.
Again, this song is obviously about Maynard's son. Literally.
__________________
"So, throughout life, our worst weaknesses and meannesses are usually committed for the sake of the people whom we most despise." -Charles Dickens
Old 05-13-2006, 11:25 AM   #132
Level 11 - Clamorous
 
omnitronic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Inside the ant hill
Posts: 3,153
Bincount™: 362
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
Well it becomes a rant again. I'll try to drag it back on track.
The WHOLE point of this is to see the connections from Tool to Christianity. Someone doesn't tell you they were saved from 'the devil and his own' by a 'benevolent son' who 'changed that all for me. lifted me up, turned me round' and not mean Christ. Lifting you up and turning you around, bringing out of darkness; all that is what Christ does. Maynard leaves no room for debate in that.
Again, this song is obviously about Maynard's son. Literally.
__________________
"So, throughout life, our worst weaknesses and meannesses are usually committed for the sake of the people whom we most despise." -Charles Dickens
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote
MypugsAreSmarterThanYou's Avatar MypugsAreSmarterThanYou
05-13-2006, 11:29 AM
Reply With Quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
Well since some seem inclined to merely attack what i've said instead of stepping up to the challenge of listening, studying and thinking let move on with some more reason.

Speaking of reason, let me ask you all. Would you rather come to a rational conclusion about a major decision in you life or jump to an irrational, emotion based reaction. No, im not asking anyone to 'chose now while you still have time or suffer the fate of the sinner. Repent, repent repent'

Please, no cynics.
i'd very much rather come to a rational conclusion about a major decision in my life.
Something that Ted bundy missed out on.:)
__________________
"here i am,expecting just a little bit...mmm..too much from...the wounded..."
Old 05-13-2006, 11:29 AM   #133
Level 9 - Obstreperous
 
MypugsAreSmarterThanYou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: canada
Posts: 1,317
Bincount™: 116
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
Well since some seem inclined to merely attack what i've said instead of stepping up to the challenge of listening, studying and thinking let move on with some more reason.

Speaking of reason, let me ask you all. Would you rather come to a rational conclusion about a major decision in you life or jump to an irrational, emotion based reaction. No, im not asking anyone to 'chose now while you still have time or suffer the fate of the sinner. Repent, repent repent'

Please, no cynics.
i'd very much rather come to a rational conclusion about a major decision in my life.
Something that Ted bundy missed out on.:)
__________________
"here i am,expecting just a little bit...mmm..too much from...the wounded..."
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote
MypugsAreSmarterThanYou's Avatar MypugsAreSmarterThanYou
05-13-2006, 11:38 AM
Reply With Quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeLIEve
Christianlty never occured to me as rational thought. You cannot scientifically conclude the things you do. You use "faith" for that yes?

This being said, if listening to Tool makes you feel closer to God or spiritually sets you on fire (which it does me) than it actually doesn't matter how you interperet it. Just be inspired. And think it through. And keep your hands off the altar boys. J/K
For sure!
i think you could totally not get what tool is about and still be inspired!!!!
__________________
"here i am,expecting just a little bit...mmm..too much from...the wounded..."
Old 05-13-2006, 11:38 AM   #134
Level 9 - Obstreperous
 
MypugsAreSmarterThanYou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: canada
Posts: 1,317
Bincount™: 116
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeLIEve
Christianlty never occured to me as rational thought. You cannot scientifically conclude the things you do. You use "faith" for that yes?

This being said, if listening to Tool makes you feel closer to God or spiritually sets you on fire (which it does me) than it actually doesn't matter how you interperet it. Just be inspired. And think it through. And keep your hands off the altar boys. J/K
For sure!
i think you could totally not get what tool is about and still be inspired!!!!
__________________
"here i am,expecting just a little bit...mmm..too much from...the wounded..."
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote
the usual's Avatar the usual
05-13-2006, 12:20 PM
Reply With Quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHolyGift
Nailed it.

Yep.
Old 05-13-2006, 12:20 PM   #135
Level 7 - Loquacious
 
the usual's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Under a dead Ohio sky
Posts: 391
Bincount™: 6
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHolyGift
Nailed it.

Yep.
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote
aperfectnineinchtool's Avatar aperfectnineinchtool
05-13-2006, 12:26 PM
Reply With Quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dharma Bum
Now, think on this, is the god of Abraham really satan? The Jews have suffered more than any other race. They have been slaves, forced to wander the desert in the hope of some promised land that they have never received. Do I even need to mention the Halocaust? Then there is the Christians, not only were they persecuted in the beginning, but it is as though "God" is taunting the Jews by making Christians the new "Chosen" people. Has there ever been a more successful religion? Has any religion caused as much destruction as christianity? Raped the rights of Humanity more?
Religion, in general, has done more to seperate us than it has to bring us together, yet nearly every religion teaches brotherhood? I s religion the tower of Babal? Trying to build a stairway to heaven? I wonder...
Another reason I think that Satan may be the god of Abraham is that in the new testament it warns against a unified world religion. Why would something that allows us to put down our differences be wrong? Perhaps god always wanted us to live on a paradise earth, there never was a heaven or a hell. What if we are still wandering the "Desert" trying to reach our promised land, when it is right under our feet?
Distinction is the only sin. Isn't knowledge of the difference between good and evil the reason that we were "Banished" from the Garden of Eden? This is Eden people! Stop believing the Lies. I know that I was using Judeo/Christian terms, but that is my upbringing. I think that all religions are truth, the problem is that the best lies are mostly truths.
To limit the universe with petty perceptions that we fight over is ridiculous. In order for something to exist, it has to have an opposite. When one looks at a painting, it is the shadows and the light that adds depth. If you want to rid the world of evil, then stop believing in good. A canvas covered with light is blank, unpolluted by the subtle illusion of paint.
If you must think of God, try to imagine it like that, a blank canvas. Go ahead and paint the canvas, that is God's gift to you, but leave the canvas of others alone. Don't waste your life trying to do good in the hope of some future reward, heaven, nirvana, an end to the cycle of karma... whatever. Do good for the sake of doing something good. All these concepts, these paints, are useful, but they can be achieved here and now.
This may, or may not, be our only lives, but if we apply any of these concepts it wont matter either way. How can you be sent to hell if your karma is good?


Just a little rant of mine.
You obviously haven't read much of the Bible... I didn't even finish reading your reply because really there is no logic... not to say you're a complete idiot and that I am smarter, but seriously you have no clue. God isn't taunting the jews, they just could never commit to him... come on.
Old 05-13-2006, 12:26 PM   #136
Level 5 - Deep Thinker
 
aperfectnineinchtool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Hickville, Amberwavesofgrain
Posts: 53
Bincount™: 1
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dharma Bum
Now, think on this, is the god of Abraham really satan? The Jews have suffered more than any other race. They have been slaves, forced to wander the desert in the hope of some promised land that they have never received. Do I even need to mention the Halocaust? Then there is the Christians, not only were they persecuted in the beginning, but it is as though "God" is taunting the Jews by making Christians the new "Chosen" people. Has there ever been a more successful religion? Has any religion caused as much destruction as christianity? Raped the rights of Humanity more?
Religion, in general, has done more to seperate us than it has to bring us together, yet nearly every religion teaches brotherhood? I s religion the tower of Babal? Trying to build a stairway to heaven? I wonder...
Another reason I think that Satan may be the god of Abraham is that in the new testament it warns against a unified world religion. Why would something that allows us to put down our differences be wrong? Perhaps god always wanted us to live on a paradise earth, there never was a heaven or a hell. What if we are still wandering the "Desert" trying to reach our promised land, when it is right under our feet?
Distinction is the only sin. Isn't knowledge of the difference between good and evil the reason that we were "Banished" from the Garden of Eden? This is Eden people! Stop believing the Lies. I know that I was using Judeo/Christian terms, but that is my upbringing. I think that all religions are truth, the problem is that the best lies are mostly truths.
To limit the universe with petty perceptions that we fight over is ridiculous. In order for something to exist, it has to have an opposite. When one looks at a painting, it is the shadows and the light that adds depth. If you want to rid the world of evil, then stop believing in good. A canvas covered with light is blank, unpolluted by the subtle illusion of paint.
If you must think of God, try to imagine it like that, a blank canvas. Go ahead and paint the canvas, that is God's gift to you, but leave the canvas of others alone. Don't waste your life trying to do good in the hope of some future reward, heaven, nirvana, an end to the cycle of karma... whatever. Do good for the sake of doing something good. All these concepts, these paints, are useful, but they can be achieved here and now.
This may, or may not, be our only lives, but if we apply any of these concepts it wont matter either way. How can you be sent to hell if your karma is good?


Just a little rant of mine.
You obviously haven't read much of the Bible... I didn't even finish reading your reply because really there is no logic... not to say you're a complete idiot and that I am smarter, but seriously you have no clue. God isn't taunting the jews, they just could never commit to him... come on.
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote
Crisispoint
05-13-2006, 12:39 PM
Reply With Quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEulogyOfMe
The word Christ means "Annointed One." How is that Derogatory?

I recalled that it was explained in Church (when I used to go) that it was really strangers who began to refer to the disciples as Christians and it was not meant in a good way.

I am not sure if CHrist means the "Annointed One" though.
Old 05-13-2006, 12:39 PM   #137
Level 4 - Thinker
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 38
Bincount™: 0
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEulogyOfMe
The word Christ means "Annointed One." How is that Derogatory?

I recalled that it was explained in Church (when I used to go) that it was really strangers who began to refer to the disciples as Christians and it was not meant in a good way.

I am not sure if CHrist means the "Annointed One" though.
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote
aperfectnineinchtool's Avatar aperfectnineinchtool
05-13-2006, 12:42 PM
Reply With Quote

HeavenLost, are you suprised @ all that we would get these reactions? One reply said that the majority of Tool fans aren't Christians... need I say more, not really but I must. The problem with non-christians and christians alike is they want to take one story or passage and base a whole ideolgy on it and completely miss the point. Some of the things being said, while you all have the right to say whatever, is completely unresearched and incoherant nonsense. Most of you probably haven't even read more than a page out of the Bible, and that's okay if that is "how you roll". I think its awesome what HeavenLost saying, not much of that anywhere around... a breath of fresh air... very uplifting and encouraging. I suggest to most of you who care to know what the hell you're talking about next time to go out and read the whole Bible and then you can talk to me, anytime. I just want to say for the record that I love Tool more than any band on earth, no band rocks like Tool, the greatest... having said that I am a Christian, or try to be one, and am studying to become a Jehovah's Witness... and I am not ashamed and could give a crap what anybody thinks about that. I have never in my life found such knowledge or peace than with these people... and you never know such love for God than this. So say what you must. I'm out!
Old 05-13-2006, 12:42 PM   #138
Level 5 - Deep Thinker
 
aperfectnineinchtool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Hickville, Amberwavesofgrain
Posts: 53
Bincount™: 1
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

HeavenLost, are you suprised @ all that we would get these reactions? One reply said that the majority of Tool fans aren't Christians... need I say more, not really but I must. The problem with non-christians and christians alike is they want to take one story or passage and base a whole ideolgy on it and completely miss the point. Some of the things being said, while you all have the right to say whatever, is completely unresearched and incoherant nonsense. Most of you probably haven't even read more than a page out of the Bible, and that's okay if that is "how you roll". I think its awesome what HeavenLost saying, not much of that anywhere around... a breath of fresh air... very uplifting and encouraging. I suggest to most of you who care to know what the hell you're talking about next time to go out and read the whole Bible and then you can talk to me, anytime. I just want to say for the record that I love Tool more than any band on earth, no band rocks like Tool, the greatest... having said that I am a Christian, or try to be one, and am studying to become a Jehovah's Witness... and I am not ashamed and could give a crap what anybody thinks about that. I have never in my life found such knowledge or peace than with these people... and you never know such love for God than this. So say what you must. I'm out!
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote
ProdigyDub's Avatar ProdigyDub
05-13-2006, 12:43 PM
Reply With Quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by omnitronic
Remember, you can think the teachings of Jesus are valid without believing in the holy trinity.
Finally something thoughtful.
Old 05-13-2006, 12:43 PM   #139
Level 7 - Loquacious
 
ProdigyDub's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 413
Bincount™: 29
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by omnitronic
Remember, you can think the teachings of Jesus are valid without believing in the holy trinity.
Finally something thoughtful.
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote
TC1437's Avatar TC1437
05-13-2006, 12:49 PM
Reply With Quote

I can't relate to the song(s) about his mother but feel them none the less. I'm sort of a voyeur looking at a chapter in his life.
Old 05-13-2006, 12:49 PM   #140
Level 3 - Talker
 
TC1437's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Huntsville,Alabama
Posts: 10
Bincount™: 0
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

I can't relate to the song(s) about his mother but feel them none the less. I'm sort of a voyeur looking at a chapter in his life.
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote
submachine's Avatar submachine
05-13-2006, 01:00 PM
Reply With Quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cid
he's looking through his mother's eyes and hoping she gets what she deserves based on her beliefs.
Isn't that contradictory, how can she get something that he doesn't believe exists?
Old 05-13-2006, 01:00 PM   #141
On Probation
 
submachine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,020
Bincount™: 163
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cid
he's looking through his mother's eyes and hoping she gets what she deserves based on her beliefs.
Isn't that contradictory, how can she get something that he doesn't believe exists?
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote
omnitronic's Avatar omnitronic
05-13-2006, 01:04 PM
Reply With Quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
I have several friends who absolutely refuse to listen to Tool. How pitiful. That is close mindedness. There is knowledge in their music and to deny knowledge isn't just ignorant, its stupidity. Dig in and find it, if you can. Don't sidestep my argument with bashing or sarcasm, that is weakness. If you think im wrong challenge me directly.

Omnitronic, thank you for your post. I hope you find time to respond again. I have to tell you though, to think Chirst's teachings are valid without believing in the Holy Trinity is a futile venture.
Thanks for the response. Sorry for the delay in replying. Explain.
__________________
"So, throughout life, our worst weaknesses and meannesses are usually committed for the sake of the people whom we most despise." -Charles Dickens
Old 05-13-2006, 01:04 PM   #142
Level 11 - Clamorous
 
omnitronic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Inside the ant hill
Posts: 3,153
Bincount™: 362
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
I have several friends who absolutely refuse to listen to Tool. How pitiful. That is close mindedness. There is knowledge in their music and to deny knowledge isn't just ignorant, its stupidity. Dig in and find it, if you can. Don't sidestep my argument with bashing or sarcasm, that is weakness. If you think im wrong challenge me directly.

Omnitronic, thank you for your post. I hope you find time to respond again. I have to tell you though, to think Chirst's teachings are valid without believing in the Holy Trinity is a futile venture.
Thanks for the response. Sorry for the delay in replying. Explain.
__________________
"So, throughout life, our worst weaknesses and meannesses are usually committed for the sake of the people whom we most despise." -Charles Dickens
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote
omnitronic's Avatar omnitronic
05-13-2006, 01:19 PM
Reply With Quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by aperfectnineinchtool
I totally agree with the new born Christianity being Pagan V.2 but that wasn't until the 3rd and/or 4th centery. Fricking christmas and easter... and other things; *vomits*, oh I'm sorry did I get that on you?
Christianity borrows heavily from paganism, but it is not just Pagan V.2. Many of its themes and philosophies come straight from Plato. Remember, many of the books in the bible were written during his time. In my opinion, the Old Testament cannot be read without a Platonic lens if one wishes to understand what many of the metaphors mean.
__________________
"So, throughout life, our worst weaknesses and meannesses are usually committed for the sake of the people whom we most despise." -Charles Dickens
Old 05-13-2006, 01:19 PM   #143
Level 11 - Clamorous
 
omnitronic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Inside the ant hill
Posts: 3,153
Bincount™: 362
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by aperfectnineinchtool
I totally agree with the new born Christianity being Pagan V.2 but that wasn't until the 3rd and/or 4th centery. Fricking christmas and easter... and other things; *vomits*, oh I'm sorry did I get that on you?
Christianity borrows heavily from paganism, but it is not just Pagan V.2. Many of its themes and philosophies come straight from Plato. Remember, many of the books in the bible were written during his time. In my opinion, the Old Testament cannot be read without a Platonic lens if one wishes to understand what many of the metaphors mean.
__________________
"So, throughout life, our worst weaknesses and meannesses are usually committed for the sake of the people whom we most despise." -Charles Dickens
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote
omnitronic's Avatar omnitronic
05-13-2006, 01:29 PM
Reply With Quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
A Christian who does not follow EVERY SINGLE utterance of The Most High, or at least try to and pray for that kind of resolve, is no Christian. The true Christian loves Christ and God and hates every sinfull act they commit.

I find tons of continuity in the Bible. From what Christ said to the serpent in Eden to the end of Revelation. The continuous character of God thoughout, the constant prophecies of Christ, the promise to Abraham from God which is something we can see today, the unadulterated line from David to Christ just as scripture fortold.

Now the Gospels, they all tell the same story. Maybe Mark got some choronology mixed up or John didn't quite hear that well but the discontinuity you speak of Dharma is something we Christians look past to get at the meat of the story.

Christ died as the only possible offering for sin in the world. To purchase mankind for God back from sin. Thats the heart of it and thats all I and aperfectnineinchtool need to know.
What do you think about the gospels that have not been canonized? The gospel of Thomas for example. They tend to put the idea of an omniscient god in a very different light.
__________________
"So, throughout life, our worst weaknesses and meannesses are usually committed for the sake of the people whom we most despise." -Charles Dickens
Old 05-13-2006, 01:29 PM   #144
Level 11 - Clamorous
 
omnitronic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Inside the ant hill
Posts: 3,153
Bincount™: 362
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
A Christian who does not follow EVERY SINGLE utterance of The Most High, or at least try to and pray for that kind of resolve, is no Christian. The true Christian loves Christ and God and hates every sinfull act they commit.

I find tons of continuity in the Bible. From what Christ said to the serpent in Eden to the end of Revelation. The continuous character of God thoughout, the constant prophecies of Christ, the promise to Abraham from God which is something we can see today, the unadulterated line from David to Christ just as scripture fortold.

Now the Gospels, they all tell the same story. Maybe Mark got some choronology mixed up or John didn't quite hear that well but the discontinuity you speak of Dharma is something we Christians look past to get at the meat of the story.

Christ died as the only possible offering for sin in the world. To purchase mankind for God back from sin. Thats the heart of it and thats all I and aperfectnineinchtool need to know.
What do you think about the gospels that have not been canonized? The gospel of Thomas for example. They tend to put the idea of an omniscient god in a very different light.
__________________
"So, throughout life, our worst weaknesses and meannesses are usually committed for the sake of the people whom we most despise." -Charles Dickens
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote
xXAtaraxiaXx
05-13-2006, 02:06 PM
Reply With Quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
Release yourself from your own greed, pride, depravement. You cant, kernel infected, security compromised, detection protcols corrupted, please purge and reboot.
He can't because he's a monkey. We're all monkeys.
Old 05-13-2006, 02:06 PM   #145
Level 3 - Talker
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 17
Bincount™: 0
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
Release yourself from your own greed, pride, depravement. You cant, kernel infected, security compromised, detection protcols corrupted, please purge and reboot.
He can't because he's a monkey. We're all monkeys.
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote
aperfectnineinchtool's Avatar aperfectnineinchtool
05-13-2006, 02:17 PM
Reply With Quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by omnitronic
Christianity borrows heavily from paganism, but it is not just Pagan V.2. Many of its themes and philosophies come straight from Plato. Remember, many of the books in the bible were written during his time. In my opinion, the Old Testament cannot be read without a Platonic lens if one wishes to understand what many of the metaphors mean.
By my research Plato lived about 80 years, and began teaching around the age of 40, and he was born around 428-427 BCE. So then we look @ the scriptures and when they were written... only 1st & 2nd Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Psalms, and Malachi (that's 7 books out of 51, hardly many) were written anywhere from 443 to 475 BCE, and all but one book were written in Jerusalem. Plato stayed pretty close to home in his travels. So there is no proof that Plato had any impact on the scriptures... give me a break. Also, just like Tool's music there are far less metaphors in the scriptures than people want to believe. The House of Judah with their beautiful Hewbrew language had an amazing and insightful way with words... and I suggest if one desires to better understand the Hebrew scriptures one only need to look into a "literal translation" rather than a "version", as they have contributed massively to the current confussion of Bible ideas and principles.

Also, tell me Omnitronic specifically which themes and philosophies in the Bible came straight from Plato... I am more than just a little curious? And where do you get your info? Anytime is sufficent.
Old 05-13-2006, 02:17 PM   #146
Level 5 - Deep Thinker
 
aperfectnineinchtool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Hickville, Amberwavesofgrain
Posts: 53
Bincount™: 1
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by omnitronic
Christianity borrows heavily from paganism, but it is not just Pagan V.2. Many of its themes and philosophies come straight from Plato. Remember, many of the books in the bible were written during his time. In my opinion, the Old Testament cannot be read without a Platonic lens if one wishes to understand what many of the metaphors mean.
By my research Plato lived about 80 years, and began teaching around the age of 40, and he was born around 428-427 BCE. So then we look @ the scriptures and when they were written... only 1st & 2nd Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Psalms, and Malachi (that's 7 books out of 51, hardly many) were written anywhere from 443 to 475 BCE, and all but one book were written in Jerusalem. Plato stayed pretty close to home in his travels. So there is no proof that Plato had any impact on the scriptures... give me a break. Also, just like Tool's music there are far less metaphors in the scriptures than people want to believe. The House of Judah with their beautiful Hewbrew language had an amazing and insightful way with words... and I suggest if one desires to better understand the Hebrew scriptures one only need to look into a "literal translation" rather than a "version", as they have contributed massively to the current confussion of Bible ideas and principles.

Also, tell me Omnitronic specifically which themes and philosophies in the Bible came straight from Plato... I am more than just a little curious? And where do you get your info? Anytime is sufficent.
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote
xXAtaraxiaXx
05-13-2006, 02:23 PM
Reply With Quote

Who cares... Doesn't everybody remember high school? The Bible is nothing more than a handful of rumors passed down many generations. How much of it could really be fact, or even close to what was trying to be taught in the first place. These rumors were then hand picked by a bunch of old guys to make a book worth reading to make better out of humanity.

I respect people who are deeply religious, it seems to make good out of a lot of people.

I, however, will not believe in a false messiah.
Old 05-13-2006, 02:23 PM   #147
Level 3 - Talker
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 17
Bincount™: 0
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Who cares... Doesn't everybody remember high school? The Bible is nothing more than a handful of rumors passed down many generations. How much of it could really be fact, or even close to what was trying to be taught in the first place. These rumors were then hand picked by a bunch of old guys to make a book worth reading to make better out of humanity.

I respect people who are deeply religious, it seems to make good out of a lot of people.

I, however, will not believe in a false messiah.
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote
aperfectnineinchtool's Avatar aperfectnineinchtool
05-13-2006, 02:36 PM
Reply With Quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by xXAtaraxiaXx
Who cares... Doesn't everybody remember high school? The Bible is nothing more than a handful of rumors passed down many generations. How much of it could really be fact, or even close to what was trying to be taught in the first place. These rumors were then hand picked by a bunch of old guys to make a book worth reading to make better out of humanity.

I respect people who are deeply religious, it seems to make good out of a lot of people.

I, however, will not believe in a false messiah.

I remember one thing about high school... all the Mentally Disabled were FAR LESS retarded than all the rest of the kids in those 4 years of stupidity, which really only prepared us to live and exist in this world, the endless continuation of that obtuse institution.
Old 05-13-2006, 02:36 PM   #148
Level 5 - Deep Thinker
 
aperfectnineinchtool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Hickville, Amberwavesofgrain
Posts: 53
Bincount™: 1
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by xXAtaraxiaXx
Who cares... Doesn't everybody remember high school? The Bible is nothing more than a handful of rumors passed down many generations. How much of it could really be fact, or even close to what was trying to be taught in the first place. These rumors were then hand picked by a bunch of old guys to make a book worth reading to make better out of humanity.

I respect people who are deeply religious, it seems to make good out of a lot of people.

I, however, will not believe in a false messiah.

I remember one thing about high school... all the Mentally Disabled were FAR LESS retarded than all the rest of the kids in those 4 years of stupidity, which really only prepared us to live and exist in this world, the endless continuation of that obtuse institution.
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote
jstar0492
05-13-2006, 02:49 PM
Reply With Quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by omnitronic
I think he is honoring her by showing that she lived what Jesus preached while most Christians are hypocrites. He kinda compares her internment in a wheelchair to Christ on the cross. But I do not think he is "preaching" Christianity. Remember, you can think the teachings of Jesus are valid without believing in the holy trinity.
Yes - Join us!

http://www.atheists-for-jesus.com/

You can believe the message, without believing the ridiculous story behind it. Do unto others as you would have done to you is the golden rule for a reason. It is a social contact - be nice to me for the sake of society and the benefit of all. If you are only good because god tells you to, you are morally bankrupt.

Tell me who is morally superior, the Atheist who is good in order benifit the world, only expecting to be treated the same in return, or the Christian who is good only to be rewarded, and avoid being punished by a magic, invisible sky-daddy?
Old 05-13-2006, 02:49 PM   #149
Level 3 - Talker
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 19
Bincount™: 0
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by omnitronic
I think he is honoring her by showing that she lived what Jesus preached while most Christians are hypocrites. He kinda compares her internment in a wheelchair to Christ on the cross. But I do not think he is "preaching" Christianity. Remember, you can think the teachings of Jesus are valid without believing in the holy trinity.
Yes - Join us!

http://www.atheists-for-jesus.com/

You can believe the message, without believing the ridiculous story behind it. Do unto others as you would have done to you is the golden rule for a reason. It is a social contact - be nice to me for the sake of society and the benefit of all. If you are only good because god tells you to, you are morally bankrupt.

Tell me who is morally superior, the Atheist who is good in order benifit the world, only expecting to be treated the same in return, or the Christian who is good only to be rewarded, and avoid being punished by a magic, invisible sky-daddy?
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote
aperfectnineinchtool's Avatar aperfectnineinchtool
05-13-2006, 03:32 PM
Reply With Quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by jstar0492
Yes - Join us!

http://www.atheists-for-jesus.com/

You can believe the message, without believing the ridiculous story behind it. Do unto others as you would have done to you is the golden rule for a reason. It is a social contact - be nice to me for the sake of society and the benefit of all. If you are only good because god tells you to, you are morally bankrupt.

Tell me who is morally superior, the Atheist who is good in order benifit the world, only expecting to be treated the same in return, or the Christian who is good only to be rewarded, and avoid being punished by a magic, invisible sky-daddy?

I am a Christian who realizes his own imperfection, but do not be mislead by the majority of supposed Christians who only go to church to pay their empty lipservice... I am a Christian because I love YHWH... Yahweh... Jehovah and no other reason. If I am rewarded for my faith that is the bonus, the real reward is having a relationship with my creator NOW in this dying system. The message and "ridiculous story" about the life of said messanger are one and the same. Don't bite the hand that feeds you, monkey.
Old 05-13-2006, 03:32 PM   #150
Level 5 - Deep Thinker
 
aperfectnineinchtool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Hickville, Amberwavesofgrain
Posts: 53
Bincount™: 1
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by jstar0492
Yes - Join us!

http://www.atheists-for-jesus.com/

You can believe the message, without believing the ridiculous story behind it. Do unto others as you would have done to you is the golden rule for a reason. It is a social contact - be nice to me for the sake of society and the benefit of all. If you are only good because god tells you to, you are morally bankrupt.

Tell me who is morally superior, the Atheist who is good in order benifit the world, only expecting to be treated the same in return, or the Christian who is good only to be rewarded, and avoid being punished by a magic, invisible sky-daddy?

I am a Christian who realizes his own imperfection, but do not be mislead by the majority of supposed Christians who only go to church to pay their empty lipservice... I am a Christian because I love YHWH... Yahweh... Jehovah and no other reason. If I am rewarded for my faith that is the bonus, the real reward is having a relationship with my creator NOW in this dying system. The message and "ridiculous story" about the life of said messanger are one and the same. Don't bite the hand that feeds you, monkey.
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote
MypugsAreSmarterThanYou's Avatar MypugsAreSmarterThanYou
05-13-2006, 03:42 PM
Reply With Quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by jstar0492
Yes - Join us!

http://www.atheists-for-jesus.com/

You can believe the message, without believing the ridiculous story behind it. Do unto others as you would have done to you is the golden rule for a reason. It is a social contact - be nice to me for the sake of society and the benefit of all. If you are only good because god tells you to, you are morally bankrupt.

Tell me who is morally superior, the Atheist who is good in order benifit the world, only expecting to be treated the same in return, or the Christian who is good only to be rewarded, and avoid being punished by a magic, invisible sky-daddy?
What is the message. Tell me. right now.
__________________
"here i am,expecting just a little bit...mmm..too much from...the wounded..."
Old 05-13-2006, 03:42 PM   #151
Level 9 - Obstreperous
 
MypugsAreSmarterThanYou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: canada
Posts: 1,317
Bincount™: 116
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by jstar0492
Yes - Join us!

http://www.atheists-for-jesus.com/

You can believe the message, without believing the ridiculous story behind it. Do unto others as you would have done to you is the golden rule for a reason. It is a social contact - be nice to me for the sake of society and the benefit of all. If you are only good because god tells you to, you are morally bankrupt.

Tell me who is morally superior, the Atheist who is good in order benifit the world, only expecting to be treated the same in return, or the Christian who is good only to be rewarded, and avoid being punished by a magic, invisible sky-daddy?
What is the message. Tell me. right now.
__________________
"here i am,expecting just a little bit...mmm..too much from...the wounded..."
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote
jasonchristopher's Avatar jasonchristopher
05-13-2006, 04:25 PM
Reply With Quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
I have several friends who absolutely refuse to listen to Tool. How pitiful. That is close mindedness. There is knowledge in their music and to deny knowledge isn't just ignorant, its stupidity. Dig in and find it, if you can. Don't sidestep my argument with bashing or sarcasm, that is weakness. If you think im wrong challenge me directly.

Omnitronic, thank you for your post. I hope you find time to respond again. I have to tell you though, to think Chirst's teachings are valid without believing in the Holy Trinity is a futile venture.
Thanks Yoda
__________________
irony is a dead scene.
Old 05-13-2006, 04:25 PM   #152
Level 5 - Deep Thinker
 
jasonchristopher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 79
Bincount™: 4
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
I have several friends who absolutely refuse to listen to Tool. How pitiful. That is close mindedness. There is knowledge in their music and to deny knowledge isn't just ignorant, its stupidity. Dig in and find it, if you can. Don't sidestep my argument with bashing or sarcasm, that is weakness. If you think im wrong challenge me directly.

Omnitronic, thank you for your post. I hope you find time to respond again. I have to tell you though, to think Chirst's teachings are valid without believing in the Holy Trinity is a futile venture.
Thanks Yoda
__________________
irony is a dead scene.
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote
omnitronic's Avatar omnitronic
05-13-2006, 06:04 PM
Reply With Quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by aperfectnineinchtool
By my research Plato lived about 80 years, and began teaching around the age of 40, and he was born around 428-427 BCE. So then we look @ the scriptures and when they were written... only 1st & 2nd Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Psalms, and Malachi (that's 7 books out of 51, hardly many) were written anywhere from 443 to 475 BCE, and all but one book were written in Jerusalem. Plato stayed pretty close to home in his travels. So there is no proof that Plato had any impact on the scriptures... give me a break. Also, just like Tool's music there are far less metaphors in the scriptures than people want to believe. The House of Judah with their beautiful Hewbrew language had an amazing and insightful way with words... and I suggest if one desires to better understand the Hebrew scriptures one only need to look into a "literal translation" rather than a "version", as they have contributed massively to the current confussion of Bible ideas and principles.

Also, tell me Omnitronic specifically which themes and philosophies in the Bible came straight from Plato... I am more than just a little curious? And where do you get your info? Anytime is sufficent.

To preface this: I am not a Christian or a theologian. I am just a person that has a passing interest in philosophy and theology. I also have respect for the teachings of Jesus as well as those that have found faith in the teachings. But I do not "believe" in anything. I do however enjoy the search for meaning.

Good point on the dates. But I misspoke (or mistyped I guess). I meant to say the New Testament. I could be wrong about that too. It was just a thought. I do see parallels though. But that is because I read the scriptures as metaphor and not literally. Even Plato had to write his ideas in the forms of stories and dialogues because, let's face it, not too many people had the education to absorb such vast concepts back then. If you want me to be specific, one thing that comes to mind is the gospel of Thomas. I don't know if you are into it or not. I know it has been rejected as heretic, but I think it has some pretty amazing ideas in it. The gospel of Thomas claims to be the “secret teachings” of Jesus and reads like a set of ordered proverbs rather than a complete scripture. But the aspect that sets them apart the most from the canonized gospels of the bible are their directness towards the reader. As a whole, they allude to the idea that the kingdom of god is actually all around us and yet invisible. They also speak of man’s ability to attain divinity without the agents of the church and hold in high esteem man’s ability to create. In one passage of the gospel of Thomas, Jesus appears to be telling his disciples that through the act of creation, man can achieve heaven. Jesus accomplishes this by using Platonic philosophy and even conjures Plato’s double divided line to illustrate his point. By declaring that, “…when you make the inner like the outer…an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]”, Jesus is speaking directly to the idea of the visible and the intelligible world. But unlike Plato, who viewed the “idea” as superior to the “image”, Jesus seems to be expressing that to create and to imitate is of an order so high, it is in fact holy.
In the aforementioned passage of the Gospel of Thomas, when Jesus exclaims that, “…when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female…”, he begins to sound vague and contradictory; yet when taken in the context of Plato’s double divided line theory, we begin to see the representation of the man and woman as an imitation and therefore not wholly the same. In addition to man’s power as an imitator, Jesus goes on later in the scripture to attribute this authority to man’s spoken word by exclaiming that, “…when you say, ‘Mountain, move from here!’ it will move”. Unlike the Christian belief that man is depraved and guilty of original sin, the gospel of Thomas casts man as a keeper of light capable of illuminating the world. This could almost be viewed through an Aristotelian lens and perceived as the man’s ability to use poetry as an instrument to measure how things could be rather than just how they are. The thing that interests me about this is that celebrating man’s capacity to create is much more in keeping with the later ideas of the Humanists than with the standard biblical philosophies.

A rough illustration of Plato's double divided line theory: First there is the idea of a table. Then there is a drawing of the blue prints of the table. Then there is the table manifested in form. The drawing and the actual table are not the "real" table. They are merely copies. The actually table is even a copy of a copy. The "real" table is the idea.

Last edited by omnitronic; 05-13-2006 at 06:07 PM..
Old 05-13-2006, 06:04 PM   #153
Level 11 - Clamorous
 
omnitronic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Inside the ant hill
Posts: 3,153
Bincount™: 362
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by aperfectnineinchtool
By my research Plato lived about 80 years, and began teaching around the age of 40, and he was born around 428-427 BCE. So then we look @ the scriptures and when they were written... only 1st & 2nd Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Psalms, and Malachi (that's 7 books out of 51, hardly many) were written anywhere from 443 to 475 BCE, and all but one book were written in Jerusalem. Plato stayed pretty close to home in his travels. So there is no proof that Plato had any impact on the scriptures... give me a break. Also, just like Tool's music there are far less metaphors in the scriptures than people want to believe. The House of Judah with their beautiful Hewbrew language had an amazing and insightful way with words... and I suggest if one desires to better understand the Hebrew scriptures one only need to look into a "literal translation" rather than a "version", as they have contributed massively to the current confussion of Bible ideas and principles.

Also, tell me Omnitronic specifically which themes and philosophies in the Bible came straight from Plato... I am more than just a little curious? And where do you get your info? Anytime is sufficent.

To preface this: I am not a Christian or a theologian. I am just a person that has a passing interest in philosophy and theology. I also have respect for the teachings of Jesus as well as those that have found faith in the teachings. But I do not "believe" in anything. I do however enjoy the search for meaning.

Good point on the dates. But I misspoke (or mistyped I guess). I meant to say the New Testament. I could be wrong about that too. It was just a thought. I do see parallels though. But that is because I read the scriptures as metaphor and not literally. Even Plato had to write his ideas in the forms of stories and dialogues because, let's face it, not too many people had the education to absorb such vast concepts back then. If you want me to be specific, one thing that comes to mind is the gospel of Thomas. I don't know if you are into it or not. I know it has been rejected as heretic, but I think it has some pretty amazing ideas in it. The gospel of Thomas claims to be the “secret teachings” of Jesus and reads like a set of ordered proverbs rather than a complete scripture. But the aspect that sets them apart the most from the canonized gospels of the bible are their directness towards the reader. As a whole, they allude to the idea that the kingdom of god is actually all around us and yet invisible. They also speak of man’s ability to attain divinity without the agents of the church and hold in high esteem man’s ability to create. In one passage of the gospel of Thomas, Jesus appears to be telling his disciples that through the act of creation, man can achieve heaven. Jesus accomplishes this by using Platonic philosophy and even conjures Plato’s double divided line to illustrate his point. By declaring that, “…when you make the inner like the outer…an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]”, Jesus is speaking directly to the idea of the visible and the intelligible world. But unlike Plato, who viewed the “idea” as superior to the “image”, Jesus seems to be expressing that to create and to imitate is of an order so high, it is in fact holy.
In the aforementioned passage of the Gospel of Thomas, when Jesus exclaims that, “…when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female…”, he begins to sound vague and contradictory; yet when taken in the context of Plato’s double divided line theory, we begin to see the representation of the man and woman as an imitation and therefore not wholly the same. In addition to man’s power as an imitator, Jesus goes on later in the scripture to attribute this authority to man’s spoken word by exclaiming that, “…when you say, ‘Mountain, move from here!’ it will move”. Unlike the Christian belief that man is depraved and guilty of original sin, the gospel of Thomas casts man as a keeper of light capable of illuminating the world. This could almost be viewed through an Aristotelian lens and perceived as the man’s ability to use poetry as an instrument to measure how things could be rather than just how they are. The thing that interests me about this is that celebrating man’s capacity to create is much more in keeping with the later ideas of the Humanists than with the standard biblical philosophies.

A rough illustration of Plato's double divided line theory: First there is the idea of a table. Then there is a drawing of the blue prints of the table. Then there is the table manifested in form. The drawing and the actual table are not the "real" table. They are merely copies. The actually table is even a copy of a copy. The "real" table is the idea.

Last edited by omnitronic; 05-13-2006 at 06:07 PM..
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote
HeavenLost's Avatar HeavenLost
05-13-2006, 06:34 PM
Reply With Quote

Gnostic Gospels (ie. Thomas, Magdalene, Judas) all claim to be writen by people who were quite dead when the text was penned. Proof being radio-carbon dating, antropolgical studies of the circa's linguistic trends and legalist proofreaders. Those gospels aren't canonized because they're a HOAX.

You ask why following the teachings of Christ are indeed futile without trust in God the Father and The Holy Spirit. As aperfectnineinchtool said, its obvious you have not read the Bible to any length. Throughout His ministry Christ taught the Trinity. Sure he never, to my knowledge, said that word, but he did teach that his Father is the God of Abraham and shortly after his ascension back into heaven the disiples would recieve power from the Holy Spirit. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Thats the Holy Trinity. Picking and choosing, thats what I find abhorable in any religion and that's what you've done. Follow the good and wize and kind teachings of Christ but leave out all the stuff about a Sovereign God to whom you are accountable.

jstar0492, no ONE, atheist or christian, can lead a fully selfless life. You will always seek your own causes, wether for personal gain or gratification. Look at this world and tell if man is capable of love and mercy and justice. Whatever facade you try to lay over it you'll always come back to sin. You may even make the super mistake of saying all this suffering is God's fault. The tittle deeds to Earth was given to Adam, this world is our responsibility. God gave us free will and an instruction manual for using it but each and every human being born to a mortal father chose his own will over God's as soon as they had that capacity. We have squandered our birth rights, we have turned our back on the source of all love in the world and it is us who blame HIM. Are you kidding me. We stabbed him, remember. 'Father forgive them, for they know now what they do.'
__________________
So good to see you once again, I thought that you were hiding.
You thought that I had run away chasing the tail of dogma.
Old 05-13-2006, 06:34 PM   #154
Level 5 - Deep Thinker
 
HeavenLost's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: FL
Posts: 63
Bincount™: 0
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Gnostic Gospels (ie. Thomas, Magdalene, Judas) all claim to be writen by people who were quite dead when the text was penned. Proof being radio-carbon dating, antropolgical studies of the circa's linguistic trends and legalist proofreaders. Those gospels aren't canonized because they're a HOAX.

You ask why following the teachings of Christ are indeed futile without trust in God the Father and The Holy Spirit. As aperfectnineinchtool said, its obvious you have not read the Bible to any length. Throughout His ministry Christ taught the Trinity. Sure he never, to my knowledge, said that word, but he did teach that his Father is the God of Abraham and shortly after his ascension back into heaven the disiples would recieve power from the Holy Spirit. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Thats the Holy Trinity. Picking and choosing, thats what I find abhorable in any religion and that's what you've done. Follow the good and wize and kind teachings of Christ but leave out all the stuff about a Sovereign God to whom you are accountable.

jstar0492, no ONE, atheist or christian, can lead a fully selfless life. You will always seek your own causes, wether for personal gain or gratification. Look at this world and tell if man is capable of love and mercy and justice. Whatever facade you try to lay over it you'll always come back to sin. You may even make the super mistake of saying all this suffering is God's fault. The tittle deeds to Earth was given to Adam, this world is our responsibility. God gave us free will and an instruction manual for using it but each and every human being born to a mortal father chose his own will over God's as soon as they had that capacity. We have squandered our birth rights, we have turned our back on the source of all love in the world and it is us who blame HIM. Are you kidding me. We stabbed him, remember. 'Father forgive them, for they know now what they do.'
__________________
So good to see you once again, I thought that you were hiding.
You thought that I had run away chasing the tail of dogma.
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote
myministry's Avatar myministry
05-13-2006, 06:40 PM
Reply With Quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agenda
How many god danm threads need there be about this? Could it be he loves his mother wants her to be happy? That maybe he respects her and HER faith, and not the religion itself? Dumbass

no more needs to be said
__________________
Rest your trigger on my finger
Old 05-13-2006, 06:40 PM   #155
Level 4 - Thinker
 
myministry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The physical realm
Posts: 28
Bincount™: 0
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agenda
How many god danm threads need there be about this? Could it be he loves his mother wants her to be happy? That maybe he respects her and HER faith, and not the religion itself? Dumbass

no more needs to be said
__________________
Rest your trigger on my finger
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote
HeavenLost's Avatar HeavenLost
05-13-2006, 06:45 PM
Reply With Quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by omnitronic
In addition to man’s power as an imitator, Jesus goes on later in the scripture to attribute this authority to man’s spoken word by exclaiming that, “…when you say, ‘Mountain, move from here!’ it will move”. Unlike the Christian belief that man is depraved and guilty of original sin,....
You have to read more then just what you want to believe. Christ never taught you can cut this up and fit it to you liking. 'If you have but the faith of a mustard seed you can say to the mountain, 'be moved' and it will move.' That quite incredible isn't it, that faith could accomplish such a feet. Now I can't move mountains because i don't have the faith of even a tiny mustard seed, but I still believe, on faith, in the power of God. Well since it takes less then a mustard seed to trust God then his power must pritty obvious, his fingerprint everywhere.
__________________
So good to see you once again, I thought that you were hiding.
You thought that I had run away chasing the tail of dogma.
Old 05-13-2006, 06:45 PM   #156
Level 5 - Deep Thinker
 
HeavenLost's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: FL
Posts: 63
Bincount™: 0
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by omnitronic
In addition to man’s power as an imitator, Jesus goes on later in the scripture to attribute this authority to man’s spoken word by exclaiming that, “…when you say, ‘Mountain, move from here!’ it will move”. Unlike the Christian belief that man is depraved and guilty of original sin,....
You have to read more then just what you want to believe. Christ never taught you can cut this up and fit it to you liking. 'If you have but the faith of a mustard seed you can say to the mountain, 'be moved' and it will move.' That quite incredible isn't it, that faith could accomplish such a feet. Now I can't move mountains because i don't have the faith of even a tiny mustard seed, but I still believe, on faith, in the power of God. Well since it takes less then a mustard seed to trust God then his power must pritty obvious, his fingerprint everywhere.
__________________
So good to see you once again, I thought that you were hiding.
You thought that I had run away chasing the tail of dogma.
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote
omnitronic's Avatar omnitronic
05-13-2006, 07:00 PM
Reply With Quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
You have to read more then just what you want to believe. Christ never taught you can cut this up and fit it to you liking. 'If you have but the faith of a mustard seed you can say to the mountain, 'be moved' and it will move.' That quite incredible isn't it, that faith could accomplish such a feet. Now I can't move mountains because i don't have the faith of even a tiny mustard seed, but I still believe, on faith, in the power of God. Well since it takes less then a mustard seed to trust God then his power must pritty obvious, his fingerprint everywhere.
I am not cutting this up to fit to any particular liking. I don't see Platonic philosophy as the end all be all in critical thinking. I just find these words interesting given the context of other teachings and philosophies during that time. I am merely drawing parallels that I think are relevant. But it is all in how you approach the texts. I do not approach them from a place of faith or belief. You do. I see a lot of negativity posted on this thread because people have an adverse reaction to Christianity, due in part to some of its more unfortunately outspoken proponents (the list is long), and I think that putting it is some kind of context is helpful when attempting to take a stab at its meaning. For a pedestrian reader, much of the bible can be quite taxing to get through.
__________________
"So, throughout life, our worst weaknesses and meannesses are usually committed for the sake of the people whom we most despise." -Charles Dickens
Old 05-13-2006, 07:00 PM   #157
Level 11 - Clamorous
 
omnitronic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Inside the ant hill
Posts: 3,153
Bincount™: 362
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
You have to read more then just what you want to believe. Christ never taught you can cut this up and fit it to you liking. 'If you have but the faith of a mustard seed you can say to the mountain, 'be moved' and it will move.' That quite incredible isn't it, that faith could accomplish such a feet. Now I can't move mountains because i don't have the faith of even a tiny mustard seed, but I still believe, on faith, in the power of God. Well since it takes less then a mustard seed to trust God then his power must pritty obvious, his fingerprint everywhere.
I am not cutting this up to fit to any particular liking. I don't see Platonic philosophy as the end all be all in critical thinking. I just find these words interesting given the context of other teachings and philosophies during that time. I am merely drawing parallels that I think are relevant. But it is all in how you approach the texts. I do not approach them from a place of faith or belief. You do. I see a lot of negativity posted on this thread because people have an adverse reaction to Christianity, due in part to some of its more unfortunately outspoken proponents (the list is long), and I think that putting it is some kind of context is helpful when attempting to take a stab at its meaning. For a pedestrian reader, much of the bible can be quite taxing to get through.
__________________
"So, throughout life, our worst weaknesses and meannesses are usually committed for the sake of the people whom we most despise." -Charles Dickens
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote
psims23
05-13-2006, 07:20 PM
Reply With Quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crisispoint
What is interesting about CHristian, is that Jesus never mentioned in the Bible that he is a Christian, nor did he consider himself a Christ. In fact the word CHrist was a derogatory terms and came about after his death.

I think personally that Jesus was a priest in the town of Nazareth and belonged to the sect Nazarene.

That's just my opinion.



Sorry for babbling on.

You're actually right about the Nazarenes. Christians called themselves Nazarene for quite sometime throughout Jesus' teachings.. and then after he died they changed their name to Christians. Didnt think too many ppl knew that, good show :)
Old 05-13-2006, 07:20 PM   #158
Level 7 - Loquacious
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 236
Bincount™: 13
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crisispoint
What is interesting about CHristian, is that Jesus never mentioned in the Bible that he is a Christian, nor did he consider himself a Christ. In fact the word CHrist was a derogatory terms and came about after his death.

I think personally that Jesus was a priest in the town of Nazareth and belonged to the sect Nazarene.

That's just my opinion.



Sorry for babbling on.

You're actually right about the Nazarenes. Christians called themselves Nazarene for quite sometime throughout Jesus' teachings.. and then after he died they changed their name to Christians. Didnt think too many ppl knew that, good show :)
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote
gitarreliebhaber
05-13-2006, 07:40 PM
Reply With Quote

Religion has been the cause of a lot of bad... wars, deaths, you name it, it's there. But so has money. So has power. So has love. So has hate. Wait, I'm seeing a pattern.

Humans will skew anything to get their way. That's what we do best. We are selfish, sinful, arrogant and greedy pricks.

Imagine the world without religion. Would the problems go away? No. We would just use another reason to extort the same people, to start the same wars, to murder the same people.

I might even dare to say that I can conceive of a world far worse than the present world if religion never saw the light of day. I know that without the Father, Christ, the Holy Spirit--whatever manifestation through which to describe--that my own life would be in shambles. Does that make me weak? Yeah, actually it does. But I wouldn't put it past any of you.

Sure you don't need religion to show you God, but are you honestly going to rely on your own limited perspective to conceive of a being so infinite? That seems short-sighted to me. What is religion but an expression of God that has been time-tested--sure, not without blunders, but with a better track-record than your own personal interpretation would have after thousands of years.

Make your own assumptions. Find God in yourself. Fine. But that's a God of your own invention. And believe me, I wouldn't want to put my trust in anything I create. Last I checked, I'm pretty imperfect. In fact, I'm a liar, a cheater, a womanizer... a jerk, a stealer, an asshole... I'm envious, greedy, and lustful. Yet God doesn't see that when he sees me--he sees Christ's worthiness. And when I see myself through God's eyes, so do I.

You will find many hypocritical Christians. They all will be to a certain extent, because no one's perfect. But you will also find many with the heart to be perfect, and the life-long search for that perfection through Christ.

But any fakeness of Christians has absolutely NO bearing on the truth of God--only on the unrealiability of man. And I don't know about you, but that makes me long for God even more.
Old 05-13-2006, 07:40 PM   #159
Level 1 - Lurker
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: the states
Posts: 3
Bincount™: 0
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Religion has been the cause of a lot of bad... wars, deaths, you name it, it's there. But so has money. So has power. So has love. So has hate. Wait, I'm seeing a pattern.

Humans will skew anything to get their way. That's what we do best. We are selfish, sinful, arrogant and greedy pricks.

Imagine the world without religion. Would the problems go away? No. We would just use another reason to extort the same people, to start the same wars, to murder the same people.

I might even dare to say that I can conceive of a world far worse than the present world if religion never saw the light of day. I know that without the Father, Christ, the Holy Spirit--whatever manifestation through which to describe--that my own life would be in shambles. Does that make me weak? Yeah, actually it does. But I wouldn't put it past any of you.

Sure you don't need religion to show you God, but are you honestly going to rely on your own limited perspective to conceive of a being so infinite? That seems short-sighted to me. What is religion but an expression of God that has been time-tested--sure, not without blunders, but with a better track-record than your own personal interpretation would have after thousands of years.

Make your own assumptions. Find God in yourself. Fine. But that's a God of your own invention. And believe me, I wouldn't want to put my trust in anything I create. Last I checked, I'm pretty imperfect. In fact, I'm a liar, a cheater, a womanizer... a jerk, a stealer, an asshole... I'm envious, greedy, and lustful. Yet God doesn't see that when he sees me--he sees Christ's worthiness. And when I see myself through God's eyes, so do I.

You will find many hypocritical Christians. They all will be to a certain extent, because no one's perfect. But you will also find many with the heart to be perfect, and the life-long search for that perfection through Christ.

But any fakeness of Christians has absolutely NO bearing on the truth of God--only on the unrealiability of man. And I don't know about you, but that makes me long for God even more.
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote
omnitronic's Avatar omnitronic
05-13-2006, 07:58 PM
Reply With Quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
Gnostic Gospels (ie. Thomas, Magdalene, Judas) all claim to be writen by people who were quite dead when the text was penned. Proof being radio-carbon dating, antropolgical studies of the circa's linguistic trends and legalist proofreaders. Those gospels aren't canonized because they're a HOAX.
I was under the impression that all of the Gospels in the New Testament were penned by many people over a period of a hundred years or so. This is still being debated by scholars as far as I understand. I have heard some of the authored dates being set as late as the third century. Remember, the canonization of text is an entirely subjective process, presided over by men. Calling the Gnostic Gospels a hoax based on their supposed authorship (which is still being debated) and the dates written (which is also still being debated) is an accusation few of the canonized Gospels would stand up to very well either.
__________________
"So, throughout life, our worst weaknesses and meannesses are usually committed for the sake of the people whom we most despise." -Charles Dickens
Old 05-13-2006, 07:58 PM   #160
Level 11 - Clamorous
 
omnitronic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Inside the ant hill
Posts: 3,153
Bincount™: 362
Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
Gnostic Gospels (ie. Thomas, Magdalene, Judas) all claim to be writen by people who were quite dead when the text was penned. Proof being radio-carbon dating, antropolgical studies of the circa's linguistic trends and legalist proofreaders. Those gospels aren't canonized because they're a HOAX.
I was under the impression that all of the Gospels in the New Testament were penned by many people over a period of a hundred years or so. This is still being debated by scholars as far as I understand. I have heard some of the authored dates being set as late as the third century. Remember, the canonization of text is an entirely subjective process, presided over by men. Calling the Gnostic Gospels a hoax based on their supposed authorship (which is still being debated) and the dates written (which is also still being debated) is an accusation few of the canonized Gospels would stand up to very well either.
__________________
"So, throughout life, our worst weaknesses and meannesses are usually committed for the sake of the people whom we most despise." -Charles Dickens
OFFLINE |   Reply With Quote


Reply

Rate This Thread
You have already rated this thread
« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

Quick Reply

Forum Jump

all posts © their respective authors. the tool page is not responsible for any of their thoughts, brilliant or otherwise.