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implandnoises's Avatar implandnoises
05-12-2006, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
A Christian who does not follow EVERY SINGLE utterance of The Most High, or at least try to and pray for that kind of resolve, is no Christian. The true Christian loves Christ and God and hates every sinfull act they commit.

I find tons of continuity in the Bible. From what Christ said to the serpent in Eden to the end of Revelation. The continuous character of God thoughout, the constant prophecies of Christ, the promise to Abraham from God which is something we can see today, the unadulterated line from David to Christ just as scripture fortold.

Now the Gospels, they all tell the same story. Maybe Mark got some choronology mixed up or John didn't quite hear that well but the discontinuity you speak of Dharma is something we Christians look past to get at the meat of the story.

Christ died as the only possible offering for sin in the world. To purchase mankind for God back from sin. Thats the heart of it and thats all I and aperfectnineinchtool need to know.
Well that is the heart of it and as such you don't need to know anything else. But why do you need to know at all? What is it that makes you feel the need to understand this? What is it that you are trying to understand?
Old 05-12-2006, 09:36 PM   #81
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Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
A Christian who does not follow EVERY SINGLE utterance of The Most High, or at least try to and pray for that kind of resolve, is no Christian. The true Christian loves Christ and God and hates every sinfull act they commit.

I find tons of continuity in the Bible. From what Christ said to the serpent in Eden to the end of Revelation. The continuous character of God thoughout, the constant prophecies of Christ, the promise to Abraham from God which is something we can see today, the unadulterated line from David to Christ just as scripture fortold.

Now the Gospels, they all tell the same story. Maybe Mark got some choronology mixed up or John didn't quite hear that well but the discontinuity you speak of Dharma is something we Christians look past to get at the meat of the story.

Christ died as the only possible offering for sin in the world. To purchase mankind for God back from sin. Thats the heart of it and thats all I and aperfectnineinchtool need to know.
Well that is the heart of it and as such you don't need to know anything else. But why do you need to know at all? What is it that makes you feel the need to understand this? What is it that you are trying to understand?
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HeavenLost's Avatar HeavenLost
05-12-2006, 09:43 PM
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I want to understand. To say why may require more time and degrees then I have. As far as knowing anything else, let me elaborate. Thats all we need to know about Christ.
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Old 05-12-2006, 09:43 PM   #82
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Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

I want to understand. To say why may require more time and degrees then I have. As far as knowing anything else, let me elaborate. Thats all we need to know about Christ.
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Last edited by HeavenLost; 05-13-2006 at 05:45 AM..
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evil agent's Avatar evil agent
05-12-2006, 09:52 PM
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Maynard is not Christian.

Most Tool fans are not Christian.

I see that you have 16 posts and just joined the forum. Are you a Tool fan, or just some Christian trying to convert people? If so, I think you probably chose the wrong forum.
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Old 05-12-2006, 09:52 PM   #83
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Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Maynard is not Christian.

Most Tool fans are not Christian.

I see that you have 16 posts and just joined the forum. Are you a Tool fan, or just some Christian trying to convert people? If so, I think you probably chose the wrong forum.
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implandnoises's Avatar implandnoises
05-12-2006, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
I want to understand. To say why my require more time and degrees then have. As far as knowing anything else, let me elaborate. Thats all we need to know about Christ.
Please, it is important. You agree it is important don't you? How we live is important right? And if we have a religion then that surely effects how we live? Of course it does right? Thats the whole point, you might say. So it is important to explore why we want to understand, why we feel the need to know the truth. You do not need a degree to make the exploration, just the will. Do you agree that it is important?
Old 05-12-2006, 09:59 PM   #84
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Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
I want to understand. To say why my require more time and degrees then have. As far as knowing anything else, let me elaborate. Thats all we need to know about Christ.
Please, it is important. You agree it is important don't you? How we live is important right? And if we have a religion then that surely effects how we live? Of course it does right? Thats the whole point, you might say. So it is important to explore why we want to understand, why we feel the need to know the truth. You do not need a degree to make the exploration, just the will. Do you agree that it is important?
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HeavenLost's Avatar HeavenLost
05-12-2006, 10:05 PM
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OH YES. Truth is a burning need for us. Ofcourse. Thats because we were created to love the truth, which is God.
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Old 05-12-2006, 10:05 PM   #85
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Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

OH YES. Truth is a burning need for us. Ofcourse. Thats because we were created to love the truth, which is God.
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implandnoises's Avatar implandnoises
05-12-2006, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
OH YES. Truth is a burning need for us. Ofcourse. Thats because we were created to love the truth, which is God.
Please understand. One must discover, explore. Truth does appear to be a burning need for us, but to say "it is so because God made it so" is to bypass a huge amount of relevent information. Can you look into yourself and question what it is that makes you feel the need to have this "knowledge"? Look into yourself and find answers there, and there alone. Do you understand what I mean?
Old 05-12-2006, 10:20 PM   #86
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Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
OH YES. Truth is a burning need for us. Ofcourse. Thats because we were created to love the truth, which is God.
Please understand. One must discover, explore. Truth does appear to be a burning need for us, but to say "it is so because God made it so" is to bypass a huge amount of relevent information. Can you look into yourself and question what it is that makes you feel the need to have this "knowledge"? Look into yourself and find answers there, and there alone. Do you understand what I mean?
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tDoXoMl
05-12-2006, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
Neuromancer, if you think im joking then you've missed quite alot.

Organized religion is one of the most insidious inventions mankind has ever made. To accept a regime where a few people dictate what your Creator has said is robing yourself of truth. No man can ever be truly selfless. God tells us to question, not just wander through life ignorant of the forces that try to control us. Oddly enough, thats the same thing Tool has been saying for more then twenty years.
That sounded smart. Define selflessness then?
Old 05-12-2006, 10:36 PM   #87
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Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
Neuromancer, if you think im joking then you've missed quite alot.

Organized religion is one of the most insidious inventions mankind has ever made. To accept a regime where a few people dictate what your Creator has said is robing yourself of truth. No man can ever be truly selfless. God tells us to question, not just wander through life ignorant of the forces that try to control us. Oddly enough, thats the same thing Tool has been saying for more then twenty years.
That sounded smart. Define selflessness then?
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Randall's Avatar Randall
05-12-2006, 10:41 PM
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Some Tool fans are just Idiots......
Old 05-12-2006, 10:41 PM   #88
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Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Some Tool fans are just Idiots......
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hereandthere's Avatar hereandthere
05-12-2006, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
Through all the years I've been listening to Tool I never thought I would hear what I'm hearing on 10,000 Days. Completely out of the question, but here is it from Maynards own mouth.

Ladies and gentlemen and undefinable, Maynard James Keenan is preaching the word of God. There's a truck load of proof I can give for this, but in true Tool fashion I want you to use your brain and find it for yourself. Now, let me wet your appetite and set you on your way.

We all know that Judith Marie was a devout Christian, and if here life wasn't a lie ('she never lived a lie') then her life must haven been true.

There are many more of there little gems. Listen, study and think, Tool has always tried to encourage you to do that.
Are you a joke person? Surely you don't exist in reality?
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Old 05-12-2006, 10:45 PM   #89
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Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
Through all the years I've been listening to Tool I never thought I would hear what I'm hearing on 10,000 Days. Completely out of the question, but here is it from Maynards own mouth.

Ladies and gentlemen and undefinable, Maynard James Keenan is preaching the word of God. There's a truck load of proof I can give for this, but in true Tool fashion I want you to use your brain and find it for yourself. Now, let me wet your appetite and set you on your way.

We all know that Judith Marie was a devout Christian, and if here life wasn't a lie ('she never lived a lie') then her life must haven been true.

There are many more of there little gems. Listen, study and think, Tool has always tried to encourage you to do that.
Are you a joke person? Surely you don't exist in reality?
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Happyfunball's Avatar Happyfunball
05-12-2006, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
I have to tell you though, to think Chirst's teachings are valid without believing in the Holy Trinity is a futile venture.
followed by...

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
Organized religion is one of the most insidious inventions mankind has ever made. To accept a regime where a few people dictate what your Creator has said is robing yourself of truth. No man can ever be truly selfless. God tells us to question, not just wander through life ignorant of the forces that try to control us.
equals somebody who's not actually thinking for themselves at all, but is still married to concepts and ideas which were told to them by somebody else.

The Trinity in all it's incarnations stems from the multi-God religions that pre-date Christianity, Judaism and the Bible as a whole. The Trinity was forced into Catholisism and subsiquently Christianity long after Jesus himself died, and was done so as a means to adapt and incorporate the beliefs of outside cultures who still believed in triune or multiple Gods. It's the same reason why December 25th is now celebrated as Jesus' date of birth when the reality is that date was chosen to merge with the pagan concept of Sol Invictus, the Invincible Sun.

Were it not for organized religion, the Trinity would have been a long forgotten pagan notion who's time had passed, which is probably as it should have been. Were it not for the pagan Trinity, Jesus would have never been linked to God in the manner he has been in the first place, and the belief of the Holy Spirit would have never came to fruition.

Incidentally, the Bible is a handpicked collection of writings brought together to form a story that, prior to Emporer Constantine, did not exist. A more true representation of religious understandings of the time would have to include the Gnostic texts and others which, obviously, were discarded by the Council of Nicea because they did not fit the story trying to be pieced together. It would be akin to removing some of the more fantastical concepts of Greek Mythology so that the people and stories appear to be more realistic and plausible. That's the Bible, a cleaned up version of the many fantastical writings circulating among believers of the time.
Old 05-12-2006, 11:26 PM   #90
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Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
I have to tell you though, to think Chirst's teachings are valid without believing in the Holy Trinity is a futile venture.
followed by...

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
Organized religion is one of the most insidious inventions mankind has ever made. To accept a regime where a few people dictate what your Creator has said is robing yourself of truth. No man can ever be truly selfless. God tells us to question, not just wander through life ignorant of the forces that try to control us.
equals somebody who's not actually thinking for themselves at all, but is still married to concepts and ideas which were told to them by somebody else.

The Trinity in all it's incarnations stems from the multi-God religions that pre-date Christianity, Judaism and the Bible as a whole. The Trinity was forced into Catholisism and subsiquently Christianity long after Jesus himself died, and was done so as a means to adapt and incorporate the beliefs of outside cultures who still believed in triune or multiple Gods. It's the same reason why December 25th is now celebrated as Jesus' date of birth when the reality is that date was chosen to merge with the pagan concept of Sol Invictus, the Invincible Sun.

Were it not for organized religion, the Trinity would have been a long forgotten pagan notion who's time had passed, which is probably as it should have been. Were it not for the pagan Trinity, Jesus would have never been linked to God in the manner he has been in the first place, and the belief of the Holy Spirit would have never came to fruition.

Incidentally, the Bible is a handpicked collection of writings brought together to form a story that, prior to Emporer Constantine, did not exist. A more true representation of religious understandings of the time would have to include the Gnostic texts and others which, obviously, were discarded by the Council of Nicea because they did not fit the story trying to be pieced together. It would be akin to removing some of the more fantastical concepts of Greek Mythology so that the people and stories appear to be more realistic and plausible. That's the Bible, a cleaned up version of the many fantastical writings circulating among believers of the time.
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tDoXoMl
05-13-2006, 12:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
I'm sorry i can't resist.
Your heart is a good place to look for God. He did say, after all, that He has written His law on every man's heart. The meaning of the word inspiration is etymologicaly traced to 'immediate influence of God'. To say that the Bible was writen by God using men as His quill would be quite accurate. Privy to some divine message? No, just inspired.

I hope very much, Dharma, that the god you find loves you beyond any human comprehension.
Aside from sounding WAY too Christian for me, I liked that. I agree. Like, God is nothing more then a feeling. Success.
Old 05-13-2006, 12:36 AM   #91
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Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
I'm sorry i can't resist.
Your heart is a good place to look for God. He did say, after all, that He has written His law on every man's heart. The meaning of the word inspiration is etymologicaly traced to 'immediate influence of God'. To say that the Bible was writen by God using men as His quill would be quite accurate. Privy to some divine message? No, just inspired.

I hope very much, Dharma, that the god you find loves you beyond any human comprehension.
Aside from sounding WAY too Christian for me, I liked that. I agree. Like, God is nothing more then a feeling. Success.
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05-13-2006, 05:26 AM
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Oh no, do not misunderstand me tDoXoMl, God is not just a feeling. He is real, alive, present, within us and without us. He was, is, and is to come; The Alpha and The Omega. He is your Creator, and YOUR Creator, and my Creator.

There is a feeling that goes along with knowledge of and a personal relationship with God, though. Imagine your happiest moment in life, for me that was the birth of my sons, now add a sense of total wellbeing; no anxiety, no pressure. Why, odly enough I think Maynard said it quite well, 'let the waters kiss and transmutate these leaden grudges into to gold.'
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Old 05-13-2006, 05:26 AM   #92
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Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Oh no, do not misunderstand me tDoXoMl, God is not just a feeling. He is real, alive, present, within us and without us. He was, is, and is to come; The Alpha and The Omega. He is your Creator, and YOUR Creator, and my Creator.

There is a feeling that goes along with knowledge of and a personal relationship with God, though. Imagine your happiest moment in life, for me that was the birth of my sons, now add a sense of total wellbeing; no anxiety, no pressure. Why, odly enough I think Maynard said it quite well, 'let the waters kiss and transmutate these leaden grudges into to gold.'
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guerilla ice tea's Avatar guerilla ice tea
05-13-2006, 05:29 AM
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?
Old 05-13-2006, 05:29 AM   #93
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Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

?
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foma's Avatar foma
05-13-2006, 05:33 AM
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I heard they were making a film on christ, in witch jesus is a madman who thinks he's the son of god and gets crucified for it lol
but the important thing is, he wasn't much liked be the religuois authorities of his time.
if someone else came claiming himself to be son-of-god (i mean really, not some preachin' tv star) he would be crucified again and again by the authorities.
my truth is that the church is one of the worst crimes against humanity for many MANY reasons.
at the cost of repeating the same old song: one of the messages he sent was to think for thyself.
i find it castrating when a priest or my mother or anyone tells me what to do.
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Old 05-13-2006, 05:33 AM   #94
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Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

I heard they were making a film on christ, in witch jesus is a madman who thinks he's the son of god and gets crucified for it lol
but the important thing is, he wasn't much liked be the religuois authorities of his time.
if someone else came claiming himself to be son-of-god (i mean really, not some preachin' tv star) he would be crucified again and again by the authorities.
my truth is that the church is one of the worst crimes against humanity for many MANY reasons.
at the cost of repeating the same old song: one of the messages he sent was to think for thyself.
i find it castrating when a priest or my mother or anyone tells me what to do.
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mike09's Avatar mike09
05-13-2006, 05:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happyfunball
followed by...



equals somebody who's not actually thinking for themselves at all, but is still married to concepts and ideas which were told to them by somebody else.

The Trinity in all it's incarnations stems from the multi-God religions that pre-date Christianity, Judaism and the Bible as a whole. The Trinity was forced into Catholisism and subsiquently Christianity long after Jesus himself died, and was done so as a means to adapt and incorporate the beliefs of outside cultures who still believed in triune or multiple Gods. It's the same reason why December 25th is now celebrated as Jesus' date of birth when the reality is that date was chosen to merge with the pagan concept of Sol Invictus, the Invincible Sun.

Were it not for organized religion, the Trinity would have been a long forgotten pagan notion who's time had passed, which is probably as it should have been. Were it not for the pagan Trinity, Jesus would have never been linked to God in the manner he has been in the first place, and the belief of the Holy Spirit would have never came to fruition.

Incidentally, the Bible is a handpicked collection of writings brought together to form a story that, prior to Emporer Constantine, did not exist. A more true representation of religious understandings of the time would have to include the Gnostic texts and others which, obviously, were discarded by the Council of Nicea because they did not fit the story trying to be pieced together. It would be akin to removing some of the more fantastical concepts of Greek Mythology so that the people and stories appear to be more realistic and plausible. That's the Bible, a cleaned up version of the many fantastical writings circulating among believers of the time.
Got any links to read more about this stuff?
Old 05-13-2006, 05:34 AM   #95
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Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Happyfunball
followed by...



equals somebody who's not actually thinking for themselves at all, but is still married to concepts and ideas which were told to them by somebody else.

The Trinity in all it's incarnations stems from the multi-God religions that pre-date Christianity, Judaism and the Bible as a whole. The Trinity was forced into Catholisism and subsiquently Christianity long after Jesus himself died, and was done so as a means to adapt and incorporate the beliefs of outside cultures who still believed in triune or multiple Gods. It's the same reason why December 25th is now celebrated as Jesus' date of birth when the reality is that date was chosen to merge with the pagan concept of Sol Invictus, the Invincible Sun.

Were it not for organized religion, the Trinity would have been a long forgotten pagan notion who's time had passed, which is probably as it should have been. Were it not for the pagan Trinity, Jesus would have never been linked to God in the manner he has been in the first place, and the belief of the Holy Spirit would have never came to fruition.

Incidentally, the Bible is a handpicked collection of writings brought together to form a story that, prior to Emporer Constantine, did not exist. A more true representation of religious understandings of the time would have to include the Gnostic texts and others which, obviously, were discarded by the Council of Nicea because they did not fit the story trying to be pieced together. It would be akin to removing some of the more fantastical concepts of Greek Mythology so that the people and stories appear to be more realistic and plausible. That's the Bible, a cleaned up version of the many fantastical writings circulating among believers of the time.
Got any links to read more about this stuff?
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05-13-2006, 05:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by implandnoises
What does it matter what a man called Maynard believes or doesn't believe? I'm not saying you're right or you're wrong. I could, if I wanted to, find "evidence" in his lyrics that shows he is not a Christian. I could even explain passages to show that he believes he is an alien. That does not mean I am right does it? And even if I am right, what does it matter? If it turns out that Maynard is a Christian, does that mean that I should become one too? If it turns out that he is not, does that mean that you should drop your beliefs in favour of his?
Christians always try to pound a square peg into a round hole. Yes...Maynard has made LOTS of christian/biblical references in his lyrics throughout TOOL's career. THIS DOESN'T MAKE HIM A DEVOUT BELIEVER IN CHRIST!! Anyone ever listen to Lateralus? It's thick with spiritual references, but expressing spiritual beliefs does not make one christian.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Maynard has turned his life over to Jesus. It didn't seem to affect the music as far as I can tell. Maynard also speaks about how man has destroyed the environment. Does this make him an environmental wacko? You can't dissect everything he states down to the letter. Again...he lives in Sedona!! Anyone ever been there? I have (my honeymoon just after Lateralus came out). It's a mecca for new-age, alternative spiritual beliefs. Christ freaks would be uncomfortable there.
Old 05-13-2006, 05:41 AM   #96
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Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by implandnoises
What does it matter what a man called Maynard believes or doesn't believe? I'm not saying you're right or you're wrong. I could, if I wanted to, find "evidence" in his lyrics that shows he is not a Christian. I could even explain passages to show that he believes he is an alien. That does not mean I am right does it? And even if I am right, what does it matter? If it turns out that Maynard is a Christian, does that mean that I should become one too? If it turns out that he is not, does that mean that you should drop your beliefs in favour of his?
Christians always try to pound a square peg into a round hole. Yes...Maynard has made LOTS of christian/biblical references in his lyrics throughout TOOL's career. THIS DOESN'T MAKE HIM A DEVOUT BELIEVER IN CHRIST!! Anyone ever listen to Lateralus? It's thick with spiritual references, but expressing spiritual beliefs does not make one christian.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Maynard has turned his life over to Jesus. It didn't seem to affect the music as far as I can tell. Maynard also speaks about how man has destroyed the environment. Does this make him an environmental wacko? You can't dissect everything he states down to the letter. Again...he lives in Sedona!! Anyone ever been there? I have (my honeymoon just after Lateralus came out). It's a mecca for new-age, alternative spiritual beliefs. Christ freaks would be uncomfortable there.
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implandnoises's Avatar implandnoises
05-13-2006, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
Oh no, do not misunderstand me tDoXoMl, God is not just a feeling. He is real, alive, present, within us and without us. He was, is, and is to come; The Alpha and The Omega. He is your Creator, and YOUR Creator, and my Creator.

There is a feeling that goes along with knowledge of and a personal relationship with God, though. Imagine your happiest moment in life, for me that was the birth of my sons, now add a sense of total wellbeing; no anxiety, no pressure. Why, odly enough I think Maynard said it quite well, 'let the waters kiss and transmutate these leaden grudges into to gold.'
Ok, so you would like us to share Maynard's gems of scripture inspired words? Here's some from a beautiful song of yesteryear:

" And the angel of the lord came unto me, snatching me up from my place of slumber. And took me on high, and higher still until we moved to the spaces betwixt the air itself..."

and later

"...Hear me now, I have seen the light!..."

and

"...Save our brothers! Can I get an amen? Can I get a hallelujah? Thank you Jesus...."
Old 05-13-2006, 05:47 AM   #97
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Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
Oh no, do not misunderstand me tDoXoMl, God is not just a feeling. He is real, alive, present, within us and without us. He was, is, and is to come; The Alpha and The Omega. He is your Creator, and YOUR Creator, and my Creator.

There is a feeling that goes along with knowledge of and a personal relationship with God, though. Imagine your happiest moment in life, for me that was the birth of my sons, now add a sense of total wellbeing; no anxiety, no pressure. Why, odly enough I think Maynard said it quite well, 'let the waters kiss and transmutate these leaden grudges into to gold.'
Ok, so you would like us to share Maynard's gems of scripture inspired words? Here's some from a beautiful song of yesteryear:

" And the angel of the lord came unto me, snatching me up from my place of slumber. And took me on high, and higher still until we moved to the spaces betwixt the air itself..."

and later

"...Hear me now, I have seen the light!..."

and

"...Save our brothers! Can I get an amen? Can I get a hallelujah? Thank you Jesus...."
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05-13-2006, 05:56 AM
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Well it becomes a rant again. I'll try to drag it back on track.
The WHOLE point of this is to see the connections from Tool to Christianity. Someone doesn't tell you they were saved from 'the devil and his own' by a 'benevolent son' who 'changed that all for me. lifted me up, turned me round' and not mean Christ. Lifting you up and turning you around, bringing out of darkness; all that is what Christ does. Maynard leaves no room for debate in that.
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Old 05-13-2006, 05:56 AM   #98
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Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Well it becomes a rant again. I'll try to drag it back on track.
The WHOLE point of this is to see the connections from Tool to Christianity. Someone doesn't tell you they were saved from 'the devil and his own' by a 'benevolent son' who 'changed that all for me. lifted me up, turned me round' and not mean Christ. Lifting you up and turning you around, bringing out of darkness; all that is what Christ does. Maynard leaves no room for debate in that.
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05-13-2006, 05:56 AM
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Originally Posted by 2and46
Christians always try to pound a square peg into a round hole. Yes...Maynard has made LOTS of christian/biblical references in his lyrics throughout TOOL's career. THIS DOESN'T MAKE HIM A DEVOUT BELIEVER IN CHRIST!! Anyone ever listen to Lateralus? It's thick with spiritual references, but expressing spiritual beliefs does not make one christian.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Maynard has turned his life over to Jesus. It didn't seem to affect the music as far as I can tell. Maynard also speaks about how man has destroyed the environment. Does this make him an environmental wacko? You can't dissect everything he states down to the letter. Again...he lives in Sedona!! Anyone ever been there? I have (my honeymoon just after Lateralus came out). It's a mecca for new-age, alternative spiritual beliefs. Christ freaks would be uncomfortable there.
I am sorry, I think I am arguing a moot point and that may have lead you to misunderstand me. If I was to use all logic in an attempt to judge someone's belief system from their presented lyrics then I would say "Of course the man is not a Christian, he might believe in something that involves Christ somewhere along the line along with many other religious figures, especially ones from the east, new age, numerology etc etc." But I do not wish to contend the subject of Maynard's beliefs, I wish to point out that it doesn't matter.
Old 05-13-2006, 05:56 AM   #99
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Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2and46
Christians always try to pound a square peg into a round hole. Yes...Maynard has made LOTS of christian/biblical references in his lyrics throughout TOOL's career. THIS DOESN'T MAKE HIM A DEVOUT BELIEVER IN CHRIST!! Anyone ever listen to Lateralus? It's thick with spiritual references, but expressing spiritual beliefs does not make one christian.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Maynard has turned his life over to Jesus. It didn't seem to affect the music as far as I can tell. Maynard also speaks about how man has destroyed the environment. Does this make him an environmental wacko? You can't dissect everything he states down to the letter. Again...he lives in Sedona!! Anyone ever been there? I have (my honeymoon just after Lateralus came out). It's a mecca for new-age, alternative spiritual beliefs. Christ freaks would be uncomfortable there.
I am sorry, I think I am arguing a moot point and that may have lead you to misunderstand me. If I was to use all logic in an attempt to judge someone's belief system from their presented lyrics then I would say "Of course the man is not a Christian, he might believe in something that involves Christ somewhere along the line along with many other religious figures, especially ones from the east, new age, numerology etc etc." But I do not wish to contend the subject of Maynard's beliefs, I wish to point out that it doesn't matter.
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05-13-2006, 06:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
Well it becomes a rant again. I'll try to drag it back on track.
The WHOLE point of this is to see the connections from Tool to Christianity. Someone doesn't tell you they were saved from 'the devil and his own' by a 'benevolent son' who 'changed that all for me. lifted me up, turned me round' and not mean Christ. Lifting you up and turning you around, bringing out of darkness; all that is what Christ does. Maynard leaves no room for debate in that.
I am sorry but, come on. "lifted me up, turned me round" could refer to anyone. Just because you believe that is what Christ does, it does not mean that is what someone else is talking about when they have that experience. And it really could be "benevolent sun", surely the sun shines too? Maynard leaves plenty of room for debate.
Old 05-13-2006, 06:01 AM   #100
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Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
Well it becomes a rant again. I'll try to drag it back on track.
The WHOLE point of this is to see the connections from Tool to Christianity. Someone doesn't tell you they were saved from 'the devil and his own' by a 'benevolent son' who 'changed that all for me. lifted me up, turned me round' and not mean Christ. Lifting you up and turning you around, bringing out of darkness; all that is what Christ does. Maynard leaves no room for debate in that.
I am sorry but, come on. "lifted me up, turned me round" could refer to anyone. Just because you believe that is what Christ does, it does not mean that is what someone else is talking about when they have that experience. And it really could be "benevolent sun", surely the sun shines too? Maynard leaves plenty of room for debate.
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05-13-2006, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike09
Got any links to read more about this stuff?
Read "Jesus and The Lost Goddess" and "The Jesus Mysteries" both by Thomas Freke and Peter Gandy. Amazing exhilerating books.
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Old 05-13-2006, 06:02 AM   #101
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Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

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Originally Posted by mike09
Got any links to read more about this stuff?
Read "Jesus and The Lost Goddess" and "The Jesus Mysteries" both by Thomas Freke and Peter Gandy. Amazing exhilerating books.
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05-13-2006, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by HeavenLost
Through all the years I've been listening to Tool I never thought I would hear what I'm hearing on 10,000 Days. Completely out of the question, but here is it from Maynards own mouth.

Ladies and gentlemen and undefinable, Maynard James Keenan is preaching the word of God. There's a truck load of proof I can give for this, but in true Tool fashion I want you to use your brain and find it for yourself. Now, let me wet your appetite and set you on your way.

We all know that Judith Marie was a devout Christian, and if here life wasn't a lie ('she never lived a lie') then her life must haven been true.

There are many more of there little gems. Listen, study and think, Tool has always tried to encourage you to do that.
First of all if this is a tribute to his mom and I believe most people believe that's what it is, Then how else is Maynard gonna really honor her memory. If she was a devout christian then saying that she should get her wings is perfect. It's neither here nor there what the hell Maynard Believes. Another little tid bit is that it wold be resonable to assume that Maynard believes that Jesus did exist because he has said Jesus's or alluded to him on almost every album he's ever done so why should it be a surprise or disappointment that he mentions some christian thoughts in this a song about his mother. Lastly, above I said IF because I myself have never meet Maynard nor any of the band, so all I know about them is what they sold me. So there ya go. Dumb Fucks.
Old 05-13-2006, 06:04 AM   #102
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Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
Through all the years I've been listening to Tool I never thought I would hear what I'm hearing on 10,000 Days. Completely out of the question, but here is it from Maynards own mouth.

Ladies and gentlemen and undefinable, Maynard James Keenan is preaching the word of God. There's a truck load of proof I can give for this, but in true Tool fashion I want you to use your brain and find it for yourself. Now, let me wet your appetite and set you on your way.

We all know that Judith Marie was a devout Christian, and if here life wasn't a lie ('she never lived a lie') then her life must haven been true.

There are many more of there little gems. Listen, study and think, Tool has always tried to encourage you to do that.
First of all if this is a tribute to his mom and I believe most people believe that's what it is, Then how else is Maynard gonna really honor her memory. If she was a devout christian then saying that she should get her wings is perfect. It's neither here nor there what the hell Maynard Believes. Another little tid bit is that it wold be resonable to assume that Maynard believes that Jesus did exist because he has said Jesus's or alluded to him on almost every album he's ever done so why should it be a surprise or disappointment that he mentions some christian thoughts in this a song about his mother. Lastly, above I said IF because I myself have never meet Maynard nor any of the band, so all I know about them is what they sold me. So there ya go. Dumb Fucks.
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05-13-2006, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEulogyOfMe
Read "Jesus and The Lost Goddess" and "The Jesus Mysteries" both by Thomas Freke and Peter Gandy. Amazing exhilerating books.
thanks
Old 05-13-2006, 06:12 AM   #103
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Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEulogyOfMe
Read "Jesus and The Lost Goddess" and "The Jesus Mysteries" both by Thomas Freke and Peter Gandy. Amazing exhilerating books.
thanks
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The Dharma Bum
05-13-2006, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
A Christian who does not follow EVERY SINGLE utterance of The Most High, or at least try to and pray for that kind of resolve, is no Christian. The true Christian loves Christ and God and hates every sinfull act they commit.

I find tons of continuity in the Bible. From what Christ said to the serpent in Eden to the end of Revelation. The continuous character of God thoughout, the constant prophecies of Christ, the promise to Abraham from God which is something we can see today, the unadulterated line from David to Christ just as scripture fortold.

Now the Gospels, they all tell the same story. Maybe Mark got some choronology mixed up or John didn't quite hear that well but the discontinuity you speak of Dharma is something we Christians look past to get at the meat of the story.

Christ died as the only possible offering for sin in the world. To purchase mankind for God back from sin. Thats the heart of it and thats all I and aperfectnineinchtool need to know.
Are you going to tell me you follow the book of Leviticus? That shit is crazy.
What exactly did Christ say to the Serpent in Eden? I must have missed that part, cause it seems to me there was only Adam, Eve and God in Eden.
If Jesus died for our sins, then why were we not immediately allowed "Back into Eden"?
If the Gospels was written by God, and not man, then how could "Mark get some chronology mixed up" or John not "quite hear well"?
I'm not attacking your beliefs, but if your going to start trying to get others to believe what you believe, then you should expect those who disagree to speak up, as well. Believe what you will, but don't start using the Bible as justification unless you have your shit together, because for every truth you claim the bible holds I'll show you the lie. I can bring up quote after quoute from the Teachings of Jesus that will illustrate that Jesus taught that each and every one of us is the Sun of God. "The Kingdom of God lies within" If you really want to understand what Jesus was about, then check the Teachings of Sidhartha Guatauma.
All religions teach the same thing wrapped up in cultural Bullshit. Do you know why the God of Abraham is a vengeful God? Because the Desert is a vengeful place.
Old 05-13-2006, 06:21 AM   #104
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Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
A Christian who does not follow EVERY SINGLE utterance of The Most High, or at least try to and pray for that kind of resolve, is no Christian. The true Christian loves Christ and God and hates every sinfull act they commit.

I find tons of continuity in the Bible. From what Christ said to the serpent in Eden to the end of Revelation. The continuous character of God thoughout, the constant prophecies of Christ, the promise to Abraham from God which is something we can see today, the unadulterated line from David to Christ just as scripture fortold.

Now the Gospels, they all tell the same story. Maybe Mark got some choronology mixed up or John didn't quite hear that well but the discontinuity you speak of Dharma is something we Christians look past to get at the meat of the story.

Christ died as the only possible offering for sin in the world. To purchase mankind for God back from sin. Thats the heart of it and thats all I and aperfectnineinchtool need to know.
Are you going to tell me you follow the book of Leviticus? That shit is crazy.
What exactly did Christ say to the Serpent in Eden? I must have missed that part, cause it seems to me there was only Adam, Eve and God in Eden.
If Jesus died for our sins, then why were we not immediately allowed "Back into Eden"?
If the Gospels was written by God, and not man, then how could "Mark get some chronology mixed up" or John not "quite hear well"?
I'm not attacking your beliefs, but if your going to start trying to get others to believe what you believe, then you should expect those who disagree to speak up, as well. Believe what you will, but don't start using the Bible as justification unless you have your shit together, because for every truth you claim the bible holds I'll show you the lie. I can bring up quote after quoute from the Teachings of Jesus that will illustrate that Jesus taught that each and every one of us is the Sun of God. "The Kingdom of God lies within" If you really want to understand what Jesus was about, then check the Teachings of Sidhartha Guatauma.
All religions teach the same thing wrapped up in cultural Bullshit. Do you know why the God of Abraham is a vengeful God? Because the Desert is a vengeful place.
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05-13-2006, 06:22 AM
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It is very relevent what Maynard belives. Everything you put into you brain influences you, so understanding those influences alows us to make educated choices. As for me, i was not born Christian and i spent two decades denying God to the great detriment of my life. I have studied, weighed the facts. I have riden the spiral and found along every point the presence, omniscience, and sovrereignty of God.

Implandnoises, the Sun will not shine forever. There is only One who can defeat the influences of 'the devil and his own' in our lives and that is Christ. If you don't believe me try for yourself. Release yourself from your own greed, pride, depravement. You cant, kernel infected, security compromised, detection protcols corrupted, please purge and reboot. You have a heart of stone, so make for yourself a heart of flesh that can love, be utterly mercyfull, fully just, completely selfless and finally willing to be sacrificed to save a world that does not love you, in fact hates you.
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Old 05-13-2006, 06:22 AM   #105
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Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

It is very relevent what Maynard belives. Everything you put into you brain influences you, so understanding those influences alows us to make educated choices. As for me, i was not born Christian and i spent two decades denying God to the great detriment of my life. I have studied, weighed the facts. I have riden the spiral and found along every point the presence, omniscience, and sovrereignty of God.

Implandnoises, the Sun will not shine forever. There is only One who can defeat the influences of 'the devil and his own' in our lives and that is Christ. If you don't believe me try for yourself. Release yourself from your own greed, pride, depravement. You cant, kernel infected, security compromised, detection protcols corrupted, please purge and reboot. You have a heart of stone, so make for yourself a heart of flesh that can love, be utterly mercyfull, fully just, completely selfless and finally willing to be sacrificed to save a world that does not love you, in fact hates you.
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05-13-2006, 06:24 AM
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Now, think on this, is the god of Abraham really satan? The Jews have suffered more than any other race. They have been slaves, forced to wander the desert in the hope of some promised land that they have never received. Do I even need to mention the Halocaust? Then there is the Christians, not only were they persecuted in the beginning, but it is as though "God" is taunting the Jews by making Christians the new "Chosen" people. Has there ever been a more successful religion? Has any religion caused as much destruction as christianity? Raped the rights of Humanity more?
Religion, in general, has done more to seperate us than it has to bring us together, yet nearly every religion teaches brotherhood? I s religion the tower of Babal? Trying to build a stairway to heaven? I wonder...
Another reason I think that Satan may be the god of Abraham is that in the new testament it warns against a unified world religion. Why would something that allows us to put down our differences be wrong? Perhaps god always wanted us to live on a paradise earth, there never was a heaven or a hell. What if we are still wandering the "Desert" trying to reach our promised land, when it is right under our feet?
Distinction is the only sin. Isn't knowledge of the difference between good and evil the reason that we were "Banished" from the Garden of Eden? This is Eden people! Stop believing the Lies. I know that I was using Judeo/Christian terms, but that is my upbringing. I think that all religions are truth, the problem is that the best lies are mostly truths.
To limit the universe with petty perceptions that we fight over is ridiculous. In order for something to exist, it has to have an opposite. When one looks at a painting, it is the shadows and the light that adds depth. If you want to rid the world of evil, then stop believing in good. A canvas covered with light is blank, unpolluted by the subtle illusion of paint.
If you must think of God, try to imagine it like that, a blank canvas. Go ahead and paint the canvas, that is God's gift to you, but leave the canvas of others alone. Don't waste your life trying to do good in the hope of some future reward, heaven, nirvana, an end to the cycle of karma... whatever. Do good for the sake of doing something good. All these concepts, these paints, are useful, but they can be achieved here and now.
This may, or may not, be our only lives, but if we apply any of these concepts it wont matter either way. How can you be sent to hell if your karma is good?


Just a little rant of mine.
Old 05-13-2006, 06:24 AM   #106
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Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Now, think on this, is the god of Abraham really satan? The Jews have suffered more than any other race. They have been slaves, forced to wander the desert in the hope of some promised land that they have never received. Do I even need to mention the Halocaust? Then there is the Christians, not only were they persecuted in the beginning, but it is as though "God" is taunting the Jews by making Christians the new "Chosen" people. Has there ever been a more successful religion? Has any religion caused as much destruction as christianity? Raped the rights of Humanity more?
Religion, in general, has done more to seperate us than it has to bring us together, yet nearly every religion teaches brotherhood? I s religion the tower of Babal? Trying to build a stairway to heaven? I wonder...
Another reason I think that Satan may be the god of Abraham is that in the new testament it warns against a unified world religion. Why would something that allows us to put down our differences be wrong? Perhaps god always wanted us to live on a paradise earth, there never was a heaven or a hell. What if we are still wandering the "Desert" trying to reach our promised land, when it is right under our feet?
Distinction is the only sin. Isn't knowledge of the difference between good and evil the reason that we were "Banished" from the Garden of Eden? This is Eden people! Stop believing the Lies. I know that I was using Judeo/Christian terms, but that is my upbringing. I think that all religions are truth, the problem is that the best lies are mostly truths.
To limit the universe with petty perceptions that we fight over is ridiculous. In order for something to exist, it has to have an opposite. When one looks at a painting, it is the shadows and the light that adds depth. If you want to rid the world of evil, then stop believing in good. A canvas covered with light is blank, unpolluted by the subtle illusion of paint.
If you must think of God, try to imagine it like that, a blank canvas. Go ahead and paint the canvas, that is God's gift to you, but leave the canvas of others alone. Don't waste your life trying to do good in the hope of some future reward, heaven, nirvana, an end to the cycle of karma... whatever. Do good for the sake of doing something good. All these concepts, these paints, are useful, but they can be achieved here and now.
This may, or may not, be our only lives, but if we apply any of these concepts it wont matter either way. How can you be sent to hell if your karma is good?


Just a little rant of mine.
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05-13-2006, 06:24 AM
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Just for the record, denying God is not the same as denying christianity.
Old 05-13-2006, 06:24 AM   #107
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Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Just for the record, denying God is not the same as denying christianity.
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05-13-2006, 06:26 AM
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uh...huh.
Old 05-13-2006, 06:26 AM   #108
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uh...huh.
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05-13-2006, 06:28 AM
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I think he is honoring her by showing that she lived what Jesus preached while most Christians are hypocrites. He kinda compares her internment in a wheelchair to Christ on the cross. But I do not think he is "preaching" Christianity. Remember, you can think the teachings of Jesus are valid without believing in the holy trinity.
quoted for truth
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Old 05-13-2006, 06:28 AM   #109
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Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

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I think he is honoring her by showing that she lived what Jesus preached while most Christians are hypocrites. He kinda compares her internment in a wheelchair to Christ on the cross. But I do not think he is "preaching" Christianity. Remember, you can think the teachings of Jesus are valid without believing in the holy trinity.
quoted for truth
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The Dharma Bum
05-13-2006, 06:32 AM
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I don't deny god, nor do I neccesarily deny christianity. It's Christians that I oppose.
Old 05-13-2006, 06:32 AM   #110
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Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

I don't deny god, nor do I neccesarily deny christianity. It's Christians that I oppose.
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05-13-2006, 06:34 AM
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Christians=extension of the institution of christianity imo
Old 05-13-2006, 06:34 AM   #111
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Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Christians=extension of the institution of christianity imo
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05-13-2006, 06:40 AM
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Ok, Flux, what does IMO mean? Sorry if that's a dumb question.
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Old 05-13-2006, 06:40 AM   #112
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Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Ok, Flux, what does IMO mean? Sorry if that's a dumb question.
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05-13-2006, 06:41 AM
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Christians=extension of the institution of christianity imo
See, I think that what Maynard is saying in this song (to get myself back on topic) Is that his Mother was a true Christian, and thus she wasn't living a lie, where as most christians only give lip service to thier God, so that others may see how pious they are.
I have never gotten the impression that Maynard has anything against the concept of God, just Organized Religion and Hypocricy.
Old 05-13-2006, 06:41 AM   #113
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Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

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Christians=extension of the institution of christianity imo
See, I think that what Maynard is saying in this song (to get myself back on topic) Is that his Mother was a true Christian, and thus she wasn't living a lie, where as most christians only give lip service to thier God, so that others may see how pious they are.
I have never gotten the impression that Maynard has anything against the concept of God, just Organized Religion and Hypocricy.
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05-13-2006, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by HeavenLost
It is very relevent what Maynard belives. Everything you put into you brain influences you, so understanding those influences alows us to make educated choices. As for me, i was not born Christian and i spent two decades denying God to the great detriment of my life. I have studied, weighed the facts. I have riden the spiral and found along every point the presence, omniscience, and sovrereignty of God.

Implandnoises, the Sun will not shine forever. There is only One who can defeat the influences of 'the devil and his own' in our lives and that is Christ. If you don't believe me try for yourself. Release yourself from your own greed, pride, depravement. You cant, kernel infected, security compromised, detection protcols corrupted, please purge and reboot. You have a heart of stone, so make for yourself a heart of flesh that can love, be utterly mercyfull, fully just, completely selfless and finally willing to be sacrificed to save a world that does not love you, in fact hates you.
Is it relevant what Maynard believes? Yes, you say and with good reason. If I was to continue to let others influence me then I would be wise to pay attention to what it was they were transmitting to me. I am not saying ignore what you hear from a singer's words. I am saying that you probably shouldn't bother taking advice through song lyrics if you can help it. So it is irrelevent what he believes, one should not let themselves be influenced by it. And of course I am not just talking about Maynard or singers. More importantly, I am talking about anyone and any book written by anyone. If someone talks from a belief to encourage that belief in another, one must be careful.

It is sad that you believe I have a heart of stone. I imagine this statement is presented because I clearly do not share your beliefs. If so, this shows that your beliefs are conflictive, dividing. If you think I have a heart of stone because I have said something that has deeply hurt you, then I apologise as it was never my intention.
Old 05-13-2006, 06:43 AM   #114
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Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
It is very relevent what Maynard belives. Everything you put into you brain influences you, so understanding those influences alows us to make educated choices. As for me, i was not born Christian and i spent two decades denying God to the great detriment of my life. I have studied, weighed the facts. I have riden the spiral and found along every point the presence, omniscience, and sovrereignty of God.

Implandnoises, the Sun will not shine forever. There is only One who can defeat the influences of 'the devil and his own' in our lives and that is Christ. If you don't believe me try for yourself. Release yourself from your own greed, pride, depravement. You cant, kernel infected, security compromised, detection protcols corrupted, please purge and reboot. You have a heart of stone, so make for yourself a heart of flesh that can love, be utterly mercyfull, fully just, completely selfless and finally willing to be sacrificed to save a world that does not love you, in fact hates you.
Is it relevant what Maynard believes? Yes, you say and with good reason. If I was to continue to let others influence me then I would be wise to pay attention to what it was they were transmitting to me. I am not saying ignore what you hear from a singer's words. I am saying that you probably shouldn't bother taking advice through song lyrics if you can help it. So it is irrelevent what he believes, one should not let themselves be influenced by it. And of course I am not just talking about Maynard or singers. More importantly, I am talking about anyone and any book written by anyone. If someone talks from a belief to encourage that belief in another, one must be careful.

It is sad that you believe I have a heart of stone. I imagine this statement is presented because I clearly do not share your beliefs. If so, this shows that your beliefs are conflictive, dividing. If you think I have a heart of stone because I have said something that has deeply hurt you, then I apologise as it was never my intention.
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05-13-2006, 07:24 AM
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Christ in the garden of Eden to the serpent, 'And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed, He shall bruise you on the head, and you shall bruise him on the heel' Now to unpack this we have to know that you, me, my sons, my wife, almost everyone are all born of their father's seed. But Christ didn't have a human father, thus he is the woman's seed. At Calvary Christ struck the killing blow against Satan's plans against us (the bruise to the head), by becoming the perfect Lamb of God. The bruise to the heel was the death of Christ, something he overcame three days later.

As for the Jewish suffering throughout history. If you had wisdom that your enitire family, closest friends, most cared for people in your life would all die in, say, a plane crash; how far would you go to show them that that plane is a one way ticket to death.
The Jewish people were not chosen as His favorite, He chose them because they were most fickle. He knew that through them He could show his glory time and time again.
He delivers them from slavery or annihlation, they stay true to Him for a while then stray again and get themselves into trouble. He bailes them out is some wonderfull miraculous way and hundreds of thousands of people say, 'Holy crap, there is a God'

Now, God is Almighty, Sovereign, All Knowing. He wants all to be saved, but in his wisdom he knows who will choose their own way apart from him. But those people's lives and influences could impact hundreds of others and lead them to salvation, only God knows who, how and when. Why he allows the things he does I don't know the exact details, but i know by faith that his will 'is that none should perish' and his plan includes every human on the planet to bring as many as possible out of oblivion.

Now none of you know me, I don't think. If you do, good. So let me tell you something.
I step into nothing without great thought. I exercised every mental facility I am equiped with to defeat the truth in the Bible, and found all of my explanations and counter proofs lacking in the face of that extra-human wisdom that authored the Bible.

All these various religions, they seem to related don't they? Shared tenents, common stories, similar beliefs. Think of it like language. English, Spanish, French, to a lesser degree German are all similiar. Why? They have a common denominator, the same root languages. All these different religions are related in the same way, they are all based on the first religion, God. Over the centuries their members have picked and chosen the tenents they like and thrown out the ones they don't. Distinction is the only sin? Then stop, take it back to the root and find the God that is love but so much more, law but so much more, mercy but so much more. Remove the separation and find the common denominator. God.
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Old 05-13-2006, 07:24 AM   #115
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Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Christ in the garden of Eden to the serpent, 'And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed, He shall bruise you on the head, and you shall bruise him on the heel' Now to unpack this we have to know that you, me, my sons, my wife, almost everyone are all born of their father's seed. But Christ didn't have a human father, thus he is the woman's seed. At Calvary Christ struck the killing blow against Satan's plans against us (the bruise to the head), by becoming the perfect Lamb of God. The bruise to the heel was the death of Christ, something he overcame three days later.

As for the Jewish suffering throughout history. If you had wisdom that your enitire family, closest friends, most cared for people in your life would all die in, say, a plane crash; how far would you go to show them that that plane is a one way ticket to death.
The Jewish people were not chosen as His favorite, He chose them because they were most fickle. He knew that through them He could show his glory time and time again.
He delivers them from slavery or annihlation, they stay true to Him for a while then stray again and get themselves into trouble. He bailes them out is some wonderfull miraculous way and hundreds of thousands of people say, 'Holy crap, there is a God'

Now, God is Almighty, Sovereign, All Knowing. He wants all to be saved, but in his wisdom he knows who will choose their own way apart from him. But those people's lives and influences could impact hundreds of others and lead them to salvation, only God knows who, how and when. Why he allows the things he does I don't know the exact details, but i know by faith that his will 'is that none should perish' and his plan includes every human on the planet to bring as many as possible out of oblivion.

Now none of you know me, I don't think. If you do, good. So let me tell you something.
I step into nothing without great thought. I exercised every mental facility I am equiped with to defeat the truth in the Bible, and found all of my explanations and counter proofs lacking in the face of that extra-human wisdom that authored the Bible.

All these various religions, they seem to related don't they? Shared tenents, common stories, similar beliefs. Think of it like language. English, Spanish, French, to a lesser degree German are all similiar. Why? They have a common denominator, the same root languages. All these different religions are related in the same way, they are all based on the first religion, God. Over the centuries their members have picked and chosen the tenents they like and thrown out the ones they don't. Distinction is the only sin? Then stop, take it back to the root and find the God that is love but so much more, law but so much more, mercy but so much more. Remove the separation and find the common denominator. God.
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2and46's Avatar 2and46
05-13-2006, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dharma Bum
See, I think that what Maynard is saying in this song (to get myself back on topic) Is that his Mother was a true Christian, and thus she wasn't living a lie, where as most christians only give lip service to thier God, so that others may see how pious they are.
I have never gotten the impression that Maynard has anything against the concept of God, just Organized Religion and Hypocricy.
Excellent take...renders any opposing opinion useless in regards to Maynard. He gets an A+.
Old 05-13-2006, 07:35 AM   #116
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Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dharma Bum
See, I think that what Maynard is saying in this song (to get myself back on topic) Is that his Mother was a true Christian, and thus she wasn't living a lie, where as most christians only give lip service to thier God, so that others may see how pious they are.
I have never gotten the impression that Maynard has anything against the concept of God, just Organized Religion and Hypocricy.
Excellent take...renders any opposing opinion useless in regards to Maynard. He gets an A+.
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05-13-2006, 07:36 AM
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Shit I thought I might see some dicks in this thread.
Old 05-13-2006, 07:36 AM   #117
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Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Shit I thought I might see some dicks in this thread.
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05-13-2006, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by implandnoises
It is sad that you believe I have a heart of stone. I imagine this statement is presented because I clearly do not share your beliefs. If so, this shows that your beliefs are conflictive, dividing. If you think I have a heart of stone because I have said something that has deeply hurt you, then I apologise as it was never my intention.
Nothing you've said has hurt me, just concerns me. Its not just you who have a heart of stone. I did once. Its not because you don't share my beliefs, its because you were born that way; naturaly attracted to what will best benefit you.
Selfishness is the stone, the leaden grudge and pride is the chain that binds us to it.

Do not think that I am here for my own cause, there are much more enjoyable things i could be doing, even necessary things. But, for some reason, i feel moved, even inspired, to write all this here. Consider this. I do not know you, i don't think that you will have any impact on my life beyond this message board. So then, what reason is there for me to attempt to persuade you? I will gain nothing from it in any material or scociopolitical way. This is true, then i must accept that this is the 'immediate influence of God'.
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Last edited by HeavenLost; 05-13-2006 at 07:48 AM..
Old 05-13-2006, 07:36 AM   #118
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Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by implandnoises
It is sad that you believe I have a heart of stone. I imagine this statement is presented because I clearly do not share your beliefs. If so, this shows that your beliefs are conflictive, dividing. If you think I have a heart of stone because I have said something that has deeply hurt you, then I apologise as it was never my intention.
Nothing you've said has hurt me, just concerns me. Its not just you who have a heart of stone. I did once. Its not because you don't share my beliefs, its because you were born that way; naturaly attracted to what will best benefit you.
Selfishness is the stone, the leaden grudge and pride is the chain that binds us to it.

Do not think that I am here for my own cause, there are much more enjoyable things i could be doing, even necessary things. But, for some reason, i feel moved, even inspired, to write all this here. Consider this. I do not know you, i don't think that you will have any impact on my life beyond this message board. So then, what reason is there for me to attempt to persuade you? I will gain nothing from it in any material or scociopolitical way. This is true, then i must accept that this is the 'immediate influence of God'.
__________________
So good to see you once again, I thought that you were hiding.
You thought that I had run away chasing the tail of dogma.

Last edited by HeavenLost; 05-13-2006 at 07:48 AM..
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05-13-2006, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
Through all the years I've been listening to Tool I never thought I would hear what I'm hearing on 10,000 Days. Completely out of the question, but here is it from Maynards own mouth.

Ladies and gentlemen and undefinable, Maynard James Keenan is preaching the word of God. There's a truck load of proof I can give for this, but in true Tool fashion I want you to use your brain and find it for yourself. Now, let me wet your appetite and set you on your way.

We all know that Judith Marie was a devout Christian, and if here life wasn't a lie ('she never lived a lie') then her life must haven been true.

There are many more of there little gems. Listen, study and think, Tool has always tried to encourage you to do that.
Go away.
Old 05-13-2006, 07:48 AM   #119
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Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenLost
Through all the years I've been listening to Tool I never thought I would hear what I'm hearing on 10,000 Days. Completely out of the question, but here is it from Maynards own mouth.

Ladies and gentlemen and undefinable, Maynard James Keenan is preaching the word of God. There's a truck load of proof I can give for this, but in true Tool fashion I want you to use your brain and find it for yourself. Now, let me wet your appetite and set you on your way.

We all know that Judith Marie was a devout Christian, and if here life wasn't a lie ('she never lived a lie') then her life must haven been true.

There are many more of there little gems. Listen, study and think, Tool has always tried to encourage you to do that.
Go away.
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guitarpete987
05-13-2006, 07:49 AM
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Well, I am a christian, and maybe in order to see how much Tool is not a christian band have have to be one.

There are references, but they are always narrative devices. He comes from a strongly christian household, so it's no surprise that even though he's not one the references make their way into his lyrics.

I've said this before, but why does everything sung have to be from a first-person perspective? Using christian symbolism in music is just the same as using any other symbolism, to me. And he's been doing it since way before 10K Days. They're on every album. Really, you don't have to look very hard.
Old 05-13-2006, 07:49 AM   #120
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Re: From Maynards Own Mouth

Well, I am a christian, and maybe in order to see how much Tool is not a christian band have have to be one.

There are references, but they are always narrative devices. He comes from a strongly christian household, so it's no surprise that even though he's not one the references make their way into his lyrics.

I've said this before, but why does everything sung have to be from a first-person perspective? Using christian symbolism in music is just the same as using any other symbolism, to me. And he's been doing it since way before 10K Days. They're on every album. Really, you don't have to look very hard.
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