I'm not interested nor concerned with anything having to do with religion. I do not follow any religion or belive in anything religious, and I don't care about it ether. As to whether I believe in God, I am not sure whether this being exists or is just a false idol (I say idol, since the church think of this being as their idol, and $$$ as a close second). I am truly unsure of the existance of God(s), not too worried about it though.
as for myself, everytime i lay my eyes on some of the most beautiful things in this world, i believe there is something beyond our conecption, a divinity
i despise Church. dont believe in the way they have destroyed the concept of divinity
some days ago i went to a church, after a long time
all i kept hearing the whole time was: baaaaaaaa
I despise all religion, but I do enjoy learning about them. It can be quite interesting at times, and it's also nice, if you're in a discussion about religion, to actually know something about what you're discussing.
This is a tough call for me. I waiver back and forth all the time. Hmmm....
On the one hand, I'm Armenian and almost feel as if I owe it to the people to keep my faith. Armenia was the first country in the world to declare Christianity as its official religion, 301 A.D. This was basically suicide considering we were surrounded by Muslim countries. It pissed of the Turkish Ottoman Empire most of all, and we lost between 1.5 to 2 million people because of it (and of coarse, since the U.S. had nothing to gain financially by helping us, they didn't). Noah's Ark is also supposedly buried in Mt. Ararat (which Turkey now claims is theirs in spite of the fact that our oldest church is at the base of this mountain). I saw a program not to long ago about this. There appears to be some foreign objects scattered about the mountain, not quite at the top, but pretty high up there. For some reason, satellites and helicopters can't seem to get a decent photo of it to try and determine what it is, and every one that has tried to climb up there has died during the attempt. Pretty weird stuff! I got a creepy, eerie feeling listening to it. And then I watched another program where they took the original Shroud of Turin that Christ was buried in and ran some weird computer software on it. As you know, the markings of a crucified man can be seen on the shroud along with a real vague outline of a human. The computer was merely trying to render a better idea of what Christ may have looked like, and they found something amazing. There was actually enough data present on the material to generate a 3-D image of his head! The guy running the software said something to the effect of even with today's technology, you couldn't have a painter embed this info into this material. It was unbelievable to him what he had just witnessed. And no, neither one of these programs was on a religious station. It was “The Learning Channel”. And then there's the point that euthanasia made. It's just as hard to believe that everything around us magically appeared through science as it is to believe in a higher being. That would be even more astonishing to me than the existence of God.
On the other hand, there is no concrete proof and that would cause some doubts in the mind of any half way intelligent human being. It's only natural, and I would hope that if there is a God up there, It would understand this. I wouldn't take either of the programs I saw as clear cut evidence because you never know if they were tainted for the benefit or gain of someone or some organization. The obvious comes to mind, why is there so much suffering, why do some prayers go unanswered, blah blah blah.... The doubt is ever present, but for legitimate reasons, not “I prayed for a car, where’s my Lexus?” What I will not do is be an a@*hole my entire life, and then dismiss the existence of God because things don’t go my way. Please tell me you have a better reason than that! But I am definitely anti-organized religion!
I guess if I had to decide right this minute, I would have to choose in favor of a higher being. You can call it blind faith if you want, but I got news for all you atheists that base your decision on science. You're running on blind faith too! You CAN NOT prove evolution. In fact, many scientists have dismissed this as a failed theory. Certainly the “big bang” is stretching the boundaries of “reality”. Just as theists have blind faith in God, atheists have to have blind faith about the scientific answer. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I DO NOT hate atheists for their point of view. I certainly can’t blame them for thinking this way and am prone to doing so myself from time to time. But what I have trouble with, and I’m not trying to offend anyone here because this doesn’t apply to all of you, is the hatred I see by atheists towards believers. I’ve been reading through this forum and I can’t believe some of the posts I see and how some people respond. Come on, people. This is a TOOL board, a once in a life time chance for a “smarter” group of people to get together and interact. Say something intelligent, or go to a Limp Biscuit board! (sorry, just had to get that out!)
my heart however is consumed by worldly pleasures...music, sex, friends, etc...
but i believe in some basic ideas in my head....i believe in a higher being, i believe in a greater life after this one, and i believe that the life after this one is dependent on how we live this one
this is only due to my ignorance on "my own religion"
the amount of learning i have to do on islam is huge, even those who have been scholars keep learning and discovering more...re-analyzing, reinterpreting...i have to relearn the Qur'anic Arabic language in order to be able to ascend on such a journey...and from there...i anticipate that some day in the future i will grow and reach a higher conciousness and believe it in my heart...because i want that reward after this life...
I 100% believe in God, but I don't believe in an afterlife. My main priority is to get as much out of life before I go to sleep, and ignore trying to 'be good' or not 'be bad' or 'believe' in something so that I can have my head in the clouds about what's going to happen to me when I die.
I believe in a God, though not in the form of a domineering father figure, or a being that presides over all of reality as an active ruler. I feel that God exists as form and order in the universe, and the antitheses of this God (or hell, Daath, whatever) is the chaos of the Abyss. God exists within all that is not chaos.
As for there being no proof that there is God: if you soley look at reality from an objective viewpoint and dismiss your own feelings and thoughts as being nothing but electic signals in your brain, then you are missing out on a large chunk of reality. Nothing can come from nothing, and we dismissed spontaneous generation lnog ago, so then why do we cling to this theory as the explanation for our "becoming"?
In my viewpoint, you can only dismiss a viewpoint of what has been presented to you as being God, not the actual existance.. Just because God may be an unconsious underlying law of reality, does that make it any less of a God? "God" does not represent any single idea of divinity. It represents the law that governs reality. Law can only exist in order, and thus my earlier observation that God is all that is not chaos. In chaos is absence from god, and thus the idea of "hell".
I think that religion and church can help a person to a point, as it can help them develop their own spirituality further than they could without a guide. However, when that education takes on the form of dogmatism, it can become destructive to the individual, and ultimatley the group.
Then again, this could all just be my crazed ramblings that are incoherant to any but myself.
I am not someone who was brought up in a church, but someone who found it on my own. When I listen to Tool I perceive it as they are not bashing religion, but bashing the people who follow blindly.
It is fine by me if you don't believe in a god or an afterlife. I do not hold that against anyone, nor do I have any reason to. I also enjoy learning about other religions. I have a respect for anyone who follows a religious doctorine because that is what they believe. I think that one should choose their religion by learning all that they can about all religions and then make your choice. Any choice is good, just come to it on your own terms.
Originally posted by N_I3 Me, I am a Christian.
I am not someone who was brought up in a church, but someone who found it on my own. When I listen to Tool I perceive it as they are not bashing religion, but bashing the people who follow blindly.
Welcome to the club.
I don't believe in the afterlife or paranormal or the supernatural. I don't think about religion or God too much, but do believe in God. I believe in reincarnation, and as for God, I think that we form our own image of him in our own minds. The same with 'Heaven' and 'Hell', neither of which I believe in.
Just my opinion...
__________________ short wave dictator launches the blitzkrieg upon your frontal lobe the unexpected siege of the fortress thought impenetrable "world peace" just a few elusive frequencies away for there is no enslavement more absolute than unconscious enslavement.
I am 100% christian. I found my faith on my own not because some preacher told me i need to repent. A lot of atheists out there think that christianity is just this terrible terrible thing and that all christians shove their religion down your throat. It is very true in some respects, but there are also a lot of very good people out there that believe in god and understand how people feel about religion so they don't shove it down your throat. And to say that Christiantiy has caused wars is using christianity as a scapegoat. Man created those wars. Man abused religion to control the masses and twisted it to fit their needs. God does not want us to kill eachother in the name of him, it is totally our will. I also don't believe that he is a vengful jealous god like a lot of the catholics will scare you into believing. again i think it was just another thing to try and get people to believe it so they could be controlled by the church. I don't necessarily believe in church but i do go every once in a while just to get some insight and new ideas. i of course always question what is being talked about as you should do with anything. and some of it i have found i don't necessarily agree with. It's the people that follow blindly and don't question anything about their religion that are sheep. God wants us to question. if he didn't want us to question he would have made us into robots. it's human nature to question. But what God does have for us is the answer. just read the bible. a lot of people despise the bible, but have you ever truely read it and soked in it's message? yes maybe there are a lot of mistakes in it but there are also a lot of good things in there that are taught . I think people tend to forget that. I hear so many people slamming the bible that probably haven't even opened it up. I would have to say that is following blindly and not looking into something before you go believing what other people are saying. a little hypcritical. I've also talked to a lot atheists that try to shove THEIR ideas down my throat when all i told them was that i was a christian and didn't persue to try and convert them in anyway. also a little hypcritical. But i think the best thing is to dig deep within yourself to find the answer and listen to what your heart and your mind says.
hmmm.... would be politically correct to say i am "Agnostic"?
i don't believe in God as the Christian religion portrays him as, and i do not believe that Satan is either.
i believe in being a higher power, but i am not going to say what that power is, or how he/she/it acts. if you follow a religion that's ok, but please, if you're going to be Satanic (i guess) and say there's no God, just shut up. you are denying the basis of your religion.
as for discussing religion, i don't know alot of about any particular religion. so i don't argue about a certain religion. i take what i'm given, and run with it. i might say what's bad about religions to me. like how i feel they distort what you feel and how things affect you. i don't see the point of living life to someone else's rules. i believe in doing what you want, because you want to.
i'm still young (15 years of age) and i don't know alot and i haven't had many experiences.
i do not deny the existance of anything, nor do i promote it. and i never will.
__________________ You never meant a word. Not a fucking word of it. I am so sick of goodbyes. So sick of committing suicide. I am so sick of the in between, now and then. So sick of swinging the hammer. So sick of my suicide, of burying every hero that I had.
Last edited by a_divine_martyr; 12-04-2002 at 06:54 PM..
I've posted already on this thread, and I want to add things to this due to what the topic has now shifted towards somewhat. Although I said I don't belive in any religion nor care about religion, and I am not sure there is a 'God' but I think there is most likely a higher being. As an afterlife, I don't think there is a heaven or hell, but rather reincarnation, and if you are reincarnated into something 'good' , than that is considered 'heaven', and being reincarnated into something 'bad' would be 'hell'. Perhaps a 'good' reincarnation would be, a bird; and a 'bad' reincarnation would be a blade of grass. Just examples there.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by N_I3
[B]Me, I am a Christian.
I am not someone who was brought up in a church, but someone who found it on my own. When I listen to Tool I perceive it as they are not bashing religion, but bashing the people who follow blindly.
In Opiate, Maynard doesnt seem to be "bashing" any follower of christ. From the looks of it he is "bashing" Christianity, as though he was mocking god. "If you want to get your soul to heaven, trust in me, don't you judge or question" Just thought I would bring that to your attention :)
ok, as a follow up to what i said before, i retract almost every statement i made. i was damn ignorant for some of the things i said and after reading them when fully awake.
i still choose to be away form religion, although mostly because i have not found one that has suited me. i will not renounce a higher power for any reason because that's simply ignorant to me.
*sigh*
i tend to be hypocritcal about this...
__________________ You never meant a word. Not a fucking word of it. I am so sick of goodbyes. So sick of committing suicide. I am so sick of the in between, now and then. So sick of swinging the hammer. So sick of my suicide, of burying every hero that I had.
Anways, I'm not a "Bible thumper" or anything like that. But I believe in God very much and my faith in Him has really helped me out during a very hard time in my life.
Sometimes I wonder if I have the kind of blind faith Maynard often refers to. And maybe sometimes I do. But I'm still learning, I guess.
i waiver back and forth between EVERYTHING
i have a deist sort of approach that a divine ( ) created us and the world and seperated us from animals, or assumed us to live as higher beings above animals by eventual evolution. i believe that "God" has turned from a more active roll of Creator to a model of how he wants us to be. I feel that since we have an internal sense of good inside of us, God represents anything Good. Anything that God does or has done is Good, and defines Good itself. If God were to flat-out lie, lying would be considered a Good act. Since there's a hell of a lot of temptation to do wrong, there must be a Satan, and everything that Satan does is bad, and defines bad itself. My take on life and the purpose of it all is that if you want to please any "God", as naive as this sounds, be good throughout your life, and anything that doesn't cause another person's hurt can be considered good. Then whatever is promised us after this current life, if there is anything at all promised, it will be granted to us by our good deeds. Otherwise, something something something Satan deals with us. This is all a brain fart of mine so if this contradicts what you believe, go easy on me.
I am not religious at all. I dont like rules or judgement and most religions seem to blindly be based upon these themes. I think it is totally possible that there may exist a higher being.
There is no logical way for there to be a God. It simply doesn't add up to me. The fact that it explains the universe doesn't work with me. We just don't knwo how the universe works. We shouldnt make up ways to try and explain it.
i dont believe in god. i was rised ass a mormon, but nah, i never really could get in my head that there was somebody "up in heaven".
i dont hate religion. i just dont care about it. i dont have to believe in a god to know whats right and wrong. if i believe in myself, i know i'll be somebody. im not dumb to know whats wrong and right.
i live in utah, so mormons are everywhere. and to be honest, im kinda bored of them. i dont really wanna talk trash about them, but somehow, they make people that dont believe look like they are "lost" and need help and stuff like that, like they are the best ones around and shit. (i bet is not just mormons) maybe its the people i know that are just jerks. i dont know.
ah crap. i dont even know what the fuck im talking about. :)
WITHOUT RELIGION THE WORLD WOULD BE A BETTER PLACE!
i am "jewish" and i am forced to go to hebru school
i h8 it so much that i am practically anti-semetic
the torah is just a bunch of storys to keep pple in line
i am gonna convert to being liek a flower of life follower shortly after my barmitzvah wich is soon i mite not believie in the stuff but to be able to meditate away all my pain etc.. will be awsum and if the merkaba thing wurx that will be awsum i stubled apon this thru reasearchin tool song titles and music etc.... http://www.floweroflife.org/
and by the way VOX POPULI VOS DEI(go find a web translator its latin) the torah was written by pple not given by god i think
i have nothing to do with religion of any sort. by asking the question "do you belive in god?" implys that you belive there is a god. so now i ask you, how do you know? the answer very simply that you dont. no one knows. actualy in all honesty i dont we should know. we all need sumthing to beliove in, although humans have a tendancy to make up stuff to explain what we do not know. we belive what we want and refuse to be pursuaided, thats how it, thats how it was, thats how it will always be.
I do not care what you are. If your happy, im happy for you. So dont take anything said in this forum personally. If I piss you off, dont hate me. Rather argue with me. Get your view out there. And with that said...
Christianity is the biggest contradiction of a religion out there. I dont know. If there was actually proof of a story that the bible was supposed to be about, then i might pass christianity off as a mediocre ideology. The reason i say this is that the book which religeon is based upon, the Bible, took 39 men nearly 1800 years to write. Not to mention all of the translations; it's in 2233 languages. Many versions of the bible exist. Each reflects the limited scientific knowledge, personal beliefs of its writers/translators, and the social beliefs of the time period in which it was writen/translated. Personal biases, and societies prejudices have unavoidably distorted the bible. Im not saying its Christianity's fault, but its that whole blindly following thing. They dont know that most of what they are following is really the longest game of telephone ever! And the fact that the majority of the lower divisions of christianity believe that the other sects are all doomed because of their beliefs illuistrates my point exactly.
But for all those peolpe out there that still have faith in the christian god, i would like you to read my favorite passage from the book (and yes i have read the whole thing [King James Version, which is the most commmon], and let me tell you...dont ever waste your time.) :
Psalms 118:8 "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man."
Some kind of god to tell us not to trust ourselves, did he fuck up that bad? Have confidence in something that there is no physical proof or evidence of, or have faith within your own kind, that some of us do have it figured out. Choose god? I think not
What i do think is that there is no higher being. Some beings may be higher than others. Some through spiritual enlightenment. Some through other forms of enlightenment (hence the term High.) Some through realization. And some just because they are.
I say fuck god. I'd rather go it alone, try everything for myself and find out what's right and wrong. Rather than idolize someone who has lost hope in me yet cares just enough to tell me what to do..
I say that we are our own creators and destroyers. (Yes i know our parents actually created us, and to some they can still destroy you.) But i mean we create our own life as thus we also destroy it. Its all a matter of choice.
Just read the quote on the Opinion Homepage.
Last edited by soberwithapenis; 06-04-2003 at 02:07 AM..
Originally posted by manifestcontent And to say that Christiantiy has caused wars is using christianity as a scapegoat. Man created those wars. Man abused religion to control the masses and twisted it to fit their needs.
Did man also not create Christianity itself?
[QUOTE]Originally posted by manifestcontent I also don't believe that he is a vengful jealous god like a lot of the catholics will scare you into believing [QUOTE]
Is this not what teh second commandment states?
"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me."
Quote:
Originally posted by manifestcontent But what God does have for us is the answer. just read the bible. a lot of people despise the bible, but have you ever truely read it and soked in it's message?
I have read the bible, and laughed at a majority of it. I in deed took it serious but it is difficult when you know that you dont know. There is no such thing as truth, only opinion. The bible was written by 39 men over 1800 years. Now you cant tell me there was no personal bias added in there or in any of the translations. Yes, the bible does have some good morals, espescially when you take them out of the biblical context. But it like any other book you read about anything is just someone's (in this case at least 40 people's) opinion.
Quote:
[i]But i think the best thing is to dig deep within yourself to find the answer and listen to what your heart and your mind says. [/B]
And here you will find what you are looking for. Not in some book, not in some religion, not in some diety. In yourself is where your spirit is, thus where your spirituality lives. If you need to personify this is the form of a god or many gods or what the hell ever. Then good. Just as long as you listen to yourself and do it because you want or it is what you feel is right.
Originally posted by manifestcontent And to say that Christiantiy has caused wars is using christianity as a scapegoat. Man created those wars. Man abused religion to control the masses and twisted it to fit their needs.
Did man also not create Christianity itself?
Quote:
Originally posted by manifestcontent I also don't believe that he is a vengful jealous god like a lot of the catholics will scare you into believing
Is this not what the second commandment states?
"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me."
Quote:
Originally posted by manifestcontent But what God does have for us is the answer. just read the bible. a lot of people despise the bible, but have you ever truely read it and soked in it's message?
I have read the bible, and laughed at a majority of it. I in deed took it serious but it is difficult when you know that you dont know. There is no such thing as truth, only opinion. The bible was written by 39 men over 1800 years. Now you cant tell me there was no personal bias added in there or in any of the translations. Yes, the bible does have some good morals, espescially when you take them out of the biblical context. But it like any other book you read about anything is just someone's (in this case at least 40 people's) opinion.
Quote:
[i]But i think the best thing is to dig deep within yourself to find the answer and listen to what your heart and your mind says. [/B]
And here you will find what you are looking for. Not in some book, not in some religion, not in some diety. In yourself is where your spirit is, thus where your spirituality lives. If you need to personify this is the form of a god or many gods or what the hell ever. Then good. Just as long as you listen to yourself and do it because you want or it is what you feel is right.
Just read the quote on the Opinion Homepage.
Last edited by soberwithapenis; 06-07-2003 at 10:38 PM..
I am not a very religious person. i am, however, a very spiritual person. i agree that the churches of today are very corrupt and money has become the center of their interest, rather than god, in many cases.
However, the core ideas behind these religions should not be set aside as fallacies.
Many people also completely disregard the bible. Before doing this, i think one should read the following
The Bible Code
The Bible Code II
These books discuss a "code" found in the first five books of the old testament. the code predicts many things that has occured in history, for expample, kennedy's assasination.
This may seem far fecthed, but it may give faith back to those who doubt the bible's divinity (not that i believe the bible is without flaw)
Although I was confirmed in a Catholic Church (against my wishes), I don't consider myself to be a apart of any religion. Especially the abomination that is the Catholic church.
I don't like religion. I don't feel there is a higher power. I think humans are truly powerful. Look at the music we create, the stories we tell, the violence we generate and the energy we produce. I don't look to the heavens for inspiration I look to my fellow man/woman.
__________________ who needs tv when you got trex-deadboy
God is only a father figure that we as humans created in our infant stage of human evolution. Evolution moves in the same way that a single human grows and dies throughout his life. And at that point in our development the only way for us to interpret the undeniable pulse between us all was through a father figure. But it's time that humanity grows up and realizes that the future is just a self-fulfilling prophesy, and that we created God for ourselves. Jesus even says that he is the "son of god," but we are all his sons, and his brothers. This means that we are all on the same wavelength as Jesus Christ ever was. The potential that Jesus tapped is in everyone, and we all interpret it our own way. Buddha, Mohammad, Moses, they all had the same consciousness as Jesus. Jesus just was more of a people person, so people caught on. Do I believe in religion? No. Do I believe there is some value to be received from religion?most definately.
__________________ Amidextrous amphibian & the amniotic waters
I dont follow an organized religion. I do have my own morals and values that I live up to though. I am not against faith but against the institutions that brainwash you into a system of thinking that doesnt allow you to make up your own mind. Thankfully I had parents that didnt push religion on me. I had to go to church with them when I was younger because obviously I couldnt stay home by myself at that age. But, once I was old enough to make my own decision they were ok with that.
As we can all agree we all have our own opinions. Therefore we will all have our own faith. There is positively nothing wrong with that. In fact its one of the most beautiful things in this world. Faith can do wonderful things, just make sure it is your faith that you made the decision from inside yourself. Listen to yourself, follow your heart, and everything will be alright.
That article is interesting, but the last line kills it for me. The truth is not up for debate, it's not something we should be proud to democratize, and its distortion is not something we should tolerate.
There are certain things we know now. We really are just complicated arrangements of matter, evolution is real, we're a vanishingly small part of the universe, there's no such thing as an afterlife, and we weren't molded out of clay by a white man with a long beard.
You might not know these things, but these things are truth - the real kind of truth, not the constructed half-assed truth in the human head that makes it possible to convince ourselves of anything. Not the "truth" of a human social situation, a political view or idea, the intangibles of details of a person or persons' thought process. These are things that simply are, with or without humans - if you choose to ignore or dismiss or if you fail to understand them, that does not make them any less true.
I know human understanding is just transitioning from childhood, but I'm really eager to see what a world without "magical thinking" will be like. Not in my lifetime, unfortunately.
Offically i am the Rimocatolican, but i do not believe in that. In my country it is more a tradition than tru belief. I always say that i am against religion in three ways : as a biologist, as a liberal socialist and as a proud descender of long history of sience. I think that every religion has some good ideas and ethic, but like all ideologies, it was used for strick political purposes; hence the high number of casualties in religius wars. It is also great that some religions use music as a path to god and divinity. The hypnotic music and dances of sufi muslims, as example, give me similiar feeling like tool music. And if you look god in that way, that he is talking to you through music, then i am a strong beliver!!. But i have one problem with religion: they take human away from animal kingdom ,like he is a life form on his own. That is not true; every aspect of human habits and acting has evolved many times in earth history. Some live bearing fish ,like famous gupy, know the concept of gangs and raping( like in case of human it comes from sexual frustrations). The only difference is the higher awerness of ourselves. Animals use tools ,hell they even use drugs. If there is such thing as god ,then he had to make big bang and left the system to evolve for hymself. Some scientist made a simple computer program that represented simple life forms with few rules. very soon the system evolved to a totally different system wich had parasitism,predation,symbiosis.
