"What is "The Grudge"? can anybody tell me what this song is about? I would really appreciate it!!!!....... I am just not getting was maynard is refeering to in this song... please elaborate if you can.. Thanks!~
"TRANSMUTATE THESE LEADEN GRUDGES INTO GOLD".....EVER NOTICE HOW HEAVY IN WIEGHT LEAD IS IN COMPARISON TO GOLD? IT MUST MEAN THAT ITS HARDER TO TRAVEL THROUGH LIFE UNDER THE HUGE BURDEN. IT'S JUST LIKE GIVING AWAY THE STONE WHO WOULD WANT TO CARRY A BOULDER THAT THEY DID'NT HAVE TO
__________________ a child's rhyme stuck in my head...it said that life is but a dream.
i like that the grudge can refer to anything in your life that has dragged you down and to let it go.this song make me think alot about my life and the things that i held on to that were so stupid.little things that made no difference and that how when you decide to let these things go how much better you feel.its like a weight being lifted off of you.
I think that the "grudge" is a reference to the animosity that institutions of organized religion hold for science, scientific method, scientific process/progress etc. In the early 17th century, the Catholic Church officially endorsed Ptolemy's model of the universe, which held that the earth was at the center of the universe and that all of creation revolved around the earth. The references to saturn could relate to galileo's observation that the planets had their own satellites, disproving Ptolemy's model, to the great shagrin of the church, which branded Galileo as a heretic. The church was forced to "choose one or ten" in that there could be one center of the universe (i.e. earth in Ptolemy's model) or 10 celestial bodies making up our solar system (the sun and the nine planets). Of course Galileo couldn't see all of the planets at the time, but the point is the same (additionally it was actually the discovery of Jupiter's moons that disproved the Ptolemic model--but minute historical details don't tarnish the song's meaning). Ptolemy's model had been acceptable because it left plenty of room outside of his proposed "shell" of darkness and stars for a heaven and hell. Also, moving the earth out of the center of the universe would lessen the apparent importance of earth in the universe and would not agree well with the Book of Genesis. Ultimately, of course, the church could no longer argue with the obvious truth, and the official model was changed. This is why the church was "humbled." Organized religions tend to stick to dogma, even when common sense is in conflict with that dogma, because being "humbled again" by scientific observation erodes the facade of divinity and perfection that protects the institution's power over its followers. The grudge held by the church is what prevents the true reconciliation of science and religion. This reconcilliation is referred to as "transmut[ing] this leaden grudge into gold." I think that the "scarlet lettermen" that the church is "unable to forgive" are probably the people like galileo who made observations that the church frowned on, but I'm not sure why and would be interested in hearing if anyone has an explanation for that.
Don't ask us what it means. The song (any song) means something different to everyone. Listen to it and figure out what it means to you.
Of course every work of art is open to interpretation. That's part of the fun.
Anyway, I realized shortly after writing the post that "scarlet lettermen" simply refers to anyone who has been branded by the church as a sinner. Remember Hawthorne's "The Scarlet Letter?"
"On the breast of her gown, in fine red cloth, surrounded with an elaborate embroidery and fantastic flourishes of gold thread, appeared the letter A."
Uhm, probably i shouldn't even post it here, but can someone explain to me that 'scarlet letterman' thing? English is not my first language, and im really having problems with understanding this part. (Probalby thats partly because i havent red Hawthorne's Scarlet Letter?)
I already have some ideas, cause i have spent some time with it, since The Grudge is one of my favourite songs, but anyway, i would be grateful if someone explained it to me.
So what does it refer to?
(Private message if you wish.)
__________________ -- One day this chalk outline will circle this city --
Uhm, probably i shouldn't even post it here, but can someone explain to me that 'scarlet letterman' thing?
(Private message if you wish.)
Fugitive dude, Scarlet Letterman refers to both Hawthorne's novel and the David Letterman show, the first is set in the 17th century and tells the story of a Hester Prynne, who gives birth after committing adultery. She refuses to name the father and struggles to create a new life of repentance and dignity. Throughout, Hawthorne explores the meaning of grace, legalism, and guilt. Join the above with David Letterman and guilt / sleaze; out comes Scarlet Letterman = accuser. Compare forgiving SL with 'justifying denials.'
__________________ More will always be revealed, my friend.
Last edited by orangedarkblue; 06-07-2006 at 08:27 AM..
"What is "The Grudge"? can anybody tell me what this song is about? I would really appreciate it!!!!....... I am just not getting was maynard is refeering to in this song... please elaborate if you can.. Thanks!~
The Grudge = any Grudge you are holding, i.e. a resentment strong enough to justify retaliation; "holding a grudge"; "wanting to settle a score"
Anyway, maybe you already know this, but I'm taking the liberty of adding some extra info on Saturn here:
Saturn astologically, and I think at least partly in MJK's universe as well, is seen as the grim reaper/ gate keeper. The planet rules the lessons we must learn in life. Saturn demands that all things come down, be given structure and meaning. He will stop you dead in your tracks if you are bedazzled by Neptune and have lost your grip on reality. Saturn is the planet at the end of the Roman universe, also their God of fertility. His symbol is the Scythe. Saturn is mythologically known to swallow his children, but it's not a real end of everything if Saturn swallows you. He reaps to plant new seeds. Ironically, in 'Saturn comes back around/ lifts you up like a child/ or drags you down like a stone' child and stone mean the same thing. Saturn will swallow you. Further reading - http://xrl.us/saturnscythe
Saturn Return - Each twenty-nine years present us with the challenge to rise to new levels of awareness, or face the consequences of having failed to gain the wisdom required so to do. (See Grudge lyrics) Saturn returns to the zodiacal degree where he was in your birth chart, once every 29 years, at around age 28-30, 57-59 (and if you live long enough) 86-88. You then have what astrologers call a Saturn Return, or -by proxy- a full ten thousand days cycle.
__________________ More will always be revealed, my friend.
Last edited by orangedarkblue; 06-07-2006 at 08:37 AM..
i believe that the last 2 words of the song says everything to be said.
let go...(of everything that hold you/us back)
I just love the part where it says, "clutch it like a cornerstone". The imagery of that is just striking. Holding on to a grudge is hard, it takes a toll on us. Not only is it hard, but useless and pejorative. As you hold on to the cornerstone and it slowly slips away (because of its weight...), it gets harder to hold on to. It'll eventually fall down, unless you choose to let it go first. I just fuckin' love that phrase, in its context of course.
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Re: Meaning of "The Grudge"..
The end is the best part of the song imo. The music seems repressed or held back until Maynard screams "let go". Then it's all unleashed in a massive fury of musical genius.
__________________
THE PARTICIPATION OF THE KGB IN THIS INCIDENT
IS A FIGMENT OF YOUR IMAGINATION
lead to gold...gaining spiritual strength and rebirth through adversity. Existentialism is mentioned throughout this album, esp. the human condition of life's ups and downs, being vs. nothingness (the body which holds the soul, vs. crucifixion of the ego, to quote parabola and reflection). Sometimes, in order to reach your full potential you need to hit bottom first.
Last edited by viciouscycle; 07-20-2006 at 10:50 PM..
I think that the "grudge" is a reference to the animosity that institutions of organized religion hold for science, scientific method, scientific process/progress etc. In the early 17th century, the Catholic Church officially endorsed Ptolemy's model of the universe, which held that the earth was at the center of the universe and that all of creation revolved around the earth. The references to saturn could relate to galileo's observation that the planets had their own satellites, disproving Ptolemy's model, to the great shagrin of the church, which branded Galileo as a heretic. The church was forced to "choose one or ten" in that there could be one center of the universe (i.e. earth in Ptolemy's model) or 10 celestial bodies making up our solar system (the sun and the nine planets). Of course Galileo couldn't see all of the planets at the time, but the point is the same (additionally it was actually the discovery of Jupiter's moons that disproved the Ptolemic model--but minute historical details don't tarnish the song's meaning). Ptolemy's model had been acceptable because it left plenty of room outside of his proposed "shell" of darkness and stars for a heaven and hell. Also, moving the earth out of the center of the universe would lessen the apparent importance of earth in the universe and would not agree well with the Book of Genesis. Ultimately, of course, the church could no longer argue with the obvious truth, and the official model was changed. This is why the church was "humbled." Organized religions tend to stick to dogma, even when common sense is in conflict with that dogma, because being "humbled again" by scientific observation erodes the facade of divinity and perfection that protects the institution's power over its followers. The grudge held by the church is what prevents the true reconciliation of science and religion. This reconcilliation is referred to as "transmut[ing] this leaden grudge into gold." I think that the "scarlet lettermen" that the church is "unable to forgive" are probably the people like galileo who made observations that the church frowned on, but I'm not sure why and would be interested in hearing if anyone has an explanation for that.
Wow, awesome. I won't go so far as to say that this is what Maynard had in mind, because I don't really know, but I think that's a really interesting interpretation, and based on the evidence you presented, I wouldn't say it's out of the question at all.
if you do a quick search online for somehting like 'astrological meanings of saturn' you read a few interreting things about what saturn means that has shed some light onto what that part of this song refers to. orangedarkblue already covered some of that, but there is more out there that i have found. search, research, and explore, within and without.
the grudge for me is about change. 'saturn ascends' (cycle of saturn=change in life), 'transmuate the leaden grudges into gold' (change the hat the cold ugliness of hate into something good and posistive, shining.
'let go'- change simply let the grudge go- it reli doesnt matter in the long run.
Saturn was mythologically known as the god of agriculture, he was also said to have moved to Rome and begin the Golden Age, so "transmutate these leaden grudges into gold" I believe means not letting your mind impair you from artistic expression, "lead to gold" is simply the opening of your mind and letting your grudges go, ie "let go"
"What is "The Grudge"? can anybody tell me what this song is about? I would really appreciate it!!!!....... I am just not getting was maynard is refeering to in this song... please elaborate if you can.. Thanks!~
In my opinion, the grudge is about learning to forgive or choosing not to forgive. A really cool line in the song is Clutch it like a corner Stone. Being, if you don't hold on to it, it will all fall down. You have a choice, you can hold on the the grudge, let it stand and stay forever and just grow over time. Or let it go and the walls of anger/hate tumble down.
Saturn is the realising of the grudge that you have.
One or Ten goes along with teachings of Quaballah. 1 would be forgiving. (Going the way of God.) 10 would be unforgiving. Going the way of the world.
That's a small part of my thoughts. If you want, I would be happy to share more.
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One or Ten goes along with teachings of Quaballah. 1 would be forgiving. (Going the way of God.) 10 would be unforgiving. Going the way of the world.
That's a small part of my thoughts. If you want, I would be happy to share more.
I think you are right on that matter. I was just thinking the same as I listened to the song and read people's interpretation and thought of the Tree of Life. How I get it is something like, you know, these ten sephiroth where 1 is, as you said it yourself, union with God and that must indeed mean forgiveness. In the lowest end of the Tree we have Malkuth, which represent the earthly kingdom. Saturn represents a change in ones life, and that change could for that matter very well be the choice of forgiveness or letting go of something. I don't know why but lead makes me think of the earth and gravity. Maybe because of its weight but I am not sure. And by the way, isn't gold associated with Kether (1)?
But Opiate_Of_The_Mind, I would like to read more of your suggestions...
The interpretation of the churchs believing the earth to be the center of the universe and being proven wrong, is very interesting but I don't quite get it that way. But I like that thinking :)
I think you are right on that matter. I was just thinking the same as I listened to the song and read people's interpretation and thought of the Tree of Life. How I get it is something like, you know, these ten sephiroth where 1 is, as you said it yourself, union with God and that must indeed mean forgiveness. In the lowest end of the Tree we have Malkuth, which represent the earthly kingdom. Saturn represents a change in ones life, and that change could for that matter very well be the choice of forgiveness or letting go of something. I don't know why but lead makes me think of the earth and gravity. Maybe because of its weight but I am not sure. And by the way, isn't gold associated with Kether (1)?
But Opiate_Of_The_Mind, I would like to read more of your suggestions...
The interpretation of the churchs believing the earth to be the center of the universe and being proven wrong, is very interesting but I don't quite get it that way. But I like that thinking :)
Lead also got me thinking, I thought that was the grudge (Something of little value) turning into something great. (Gold.) As in Schism the poetry in squaring off.
__________________ Don't message me at the AOL address given. This was a friend's E-mail address I had to use because it would not accept my Hotmail account.
Contact me at [email protected] for any questions or just to talk about Tool or anything.
Don't ask us what it means. The song (any song) means something different to everyone. Listen to it and figure out what it means to you.
I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I flat out disagree with this common "hippy-hazed" opinion. A song only ever has a finite RANGE of meanings, which means a song CANNOT "mean something different to everyone". (unless of course if everyone does not even pay the song any mind when forming a thought about it, and therefore the thought which comes in response from the mindless contemplation is likely completely unrelated to the song and potentially infinite in possibilities. THEN in that case it could mean something different to everyone.)
Our interpretations of any song must be rooted VERY closely to the actual words used in the song. This is a healthy practice, and I wish more people would pay attention to it, because sometimes it seems people make comments about songs who couldn't even explain why it is they think that way. They here a word or a phrase in a song, it reminds them of a girlfriend 5 years ago who used that word or phrase under a different context, and this person thinks the song is about his girlfriend from 5 years ago. Sure, we all are responsible for our own inward experience of the world, so we should be allowed to think what we want about the music we like. We're also responsible for what we contaminate others' minds with. I just resent the mindframe that preaches open season for everybodies' own "personal" meaning to a song... there are limitations.
I've read some good posts as to what this song is about in this thread... I would just like to emphasize the lyrics
Quote:
Saturn ascends...comes round again...to show you everything.
A Saturn return: When you were born, where was Saturn astrologically positioned in the night sky? 29 1/2 years later after your birth, once Saturn has come back around to this very spot again, this will signify an important moment in your life... supposedly. It will be your first Saturn return. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_return
This song is about many of the things that have been written about in this thread by others... but it is also about those things in the SPECIFIC context of someone who is approaching the 29th year of their life, and of whom has been holding some sort of grudge basically since their childhood.
__________________ the Justifications:
Do we move only 'cause we need to move, and hense should state all the rest -the justifications- as mere pretense?
"What is "The Grudge"? can anybody tell me what this song is about? I would really appreciate it!!!!....... I am just not getting was maynard is refeering to in this song... please elaborate if you can.. Thanks!~
Perhaps just to let go of all your grudges. It takes a lot of negative energy to hold a grudge. Energy that could be used for better things.
To me it means a song to release your negative thoughts after another booooring school day... I can go home and scream with the song and finally feel released. i think it's about how your negative emotions show you in a bad way to other people, who don't even really know you. 'wear the grudge like a crown'
