I know I might be semi-repeating something from before....but there are sooo many references to government and Bush in here.

Point your finger....
Muddy water=oil=the war
You musta been high=Bush' record of drug abuse

You could take just about every line in here and it's no stretch to make it about Bush....

I agree... I think it's about Bush and the current White House. "He who lives in a glass house shouldn't throw rocks" and all that business.

You're right dude. Thats all I have to say; I'm listening to the album for the first time now so I gotta go.

Especially what with all that kangaroo talk...

er... that is, "hung the jury" and all

Can't remember exact wording 100%, but I do recall Maynard talking about GBW in the Revolver interview and saying that his re-election was one of the themes for a song on the album or something...don't take my word for it though, hopefully someone else can confirm (definetly does talk about the election though).

I really don't think so. And I'll lose a little respect for Tool if it is.

I'd lose a little respect for Tool if it wasn't.

Why would you lose respect?

I take it that you are not an APC fan.

Because they're not usually so blunt, I'd like to think they're above the likes of APC and such (releasing something so easily dated), and if this song is about Bush, it's fucking ridiculous. Honestly, I wish the Bush-hating crowd would try getting their news from something other than CNN, learn a little about history (US, Middle East, Islam, and what the war is really about -- and this has been explained many times), and try to ditch the pedantic, sixth-grade, Michael Moore ideology that has such a vise grip on the balls of so many people under 35 or so (and yes, I'm in this demographic). Think for yourself.

No, I am not a Republican. No, I have never voted for Bush. And no, I don't care to debate politics here. I'm sure I would be vastly outnumbered . . . and I don't feel like explaining the same thing over and over. Stop listening to Michael Moore, Sean Penn, and anyone with half a minute in front of a camera. Stop regurgitating erroneous and meaningless soundbites about people lying and kids dying. Try learning something about the subject.

If anyone cares to put political differences aside and hear what I think the song is about, check out the thread "You're an Alcoholic."

I was until they started releasing crap music. I could handle Thirteenth Step, as it was nearly 10% as good as Mer de Noms, but eMotive was kind of shit. Not for the message. For the music. I actually love Boy Sets Fire (though their latest is a bit weak), even thought their politics are diametrically opposed to my own. So I don't disown a band for their politics (I understand I would probably disagree with most of my favorite artists, and not just musicians).

I agree eMotive was shit. Also agree thirteenth step was 10% as good as mer de noms....but we're getting away from the point.

This song is a wonderful double entendre (if my thoughts on the subject matter are correct). It's got the great "Pot calling the kettle black" thing...which relates closely to Bush (Operation Iraqi Freedom.....right) but also the second meaning of drugs (which relates closely to Bush as well)....and since he's so anti-drugs....comes back to the Pot calling the Kettle black!! It's brilliant.

I'm what some might call a "Republitarian," but I prefer "Conservatarian." Let's put it this way: Larry Elder is the fucking man.

http://toolnavy.com/showthread.php?t=45412

I think this song can be explained in many different ways. I like to think of it as having something to do with a person who stepped over the line by being hypocritical and you're the one telling them "Who are you to point your finger..." There really are no direct references to Bush in this song (or on the entire album for that matter), and I view this as a good thing. I'm tired of hearing about politics and the 2 sides bashing each other like idiots. To me, Tool is above picking political sides (or so I like to think). The song probably has some hidden political meaning, but it's all about how WE interpret it, and for me... I feel it has nothing to do with Bush.

I read your thread "You're an Alcoholic." after I asked why you'd lose respect... interesting points. I agree that people put too much weight in what celebrities say. I have done quite a bit of reading on the situations over in the middle east... I also fall into the "slightly under 35" bracket as well. I voted for Bush in the last two elections. I won't vote for a major party again. I voted Libertarian in the 2 prior to that. I wish people didn't think their vote was wasted if they didn't vote Dem or Rep....

However, if this song IS about the Bush administration (which I think it is... or maybe about the U.S. in general), I believe they have done it in a vague enough way as to not date the material.

There are plenty of people who dislike Bush and can think for themselves without any 'celebrity' speaking out, thanks. Besides, they have the same right as us to speak their minds. They are just fortunate enough to have a bigger audience to express that view to. i hate when people say this shit.

Bill Hick's said it best when describing politics in America.
"I think the puppet on the left is more to my liking, I think the puppet on the right suits my beliefs, oh shit its the same guy holding both puppets."

While I don't doubt what Maynards opinion is on the current state of things I do doubt he is going to be that specific with anything, and anyway, it wouldn't matter who was president, people will hate them all the same. I've yet to see the day when rock music praises a politician.

Tool has said it before, the music is their for you to interpret your own way and use it for whatever you like as long as its something positive. For instance, Ticks and Leeches to me is directed towards certain members of my extended family. But thats just me. It could be that Maynard had someone special in mind when he wrote that song or it could be that it was just a concept he felt strongly about.

They encourage people to "Think for themselves and Question Authority" Thus has been their message since long before Bush, and while I don't doubt Maynard's dislike for the man I don't see them turning around and telling people how to think.

I'm new here, but certainly not new to Tool. I just wanted to say that before this album came out I had fears that it would be a little too political for my liking (with eMotive and all). So I would have to say that the album is phenomenal. Concerning this song, I can certainly see how one could see the apparent dubya references here, but if this was truly the case I would be disappointed as well, Tool is, and should be above political wrangling, including singling out one political figure for an entire song, seems a little short sighted for Tool. This song isn't about dubya to me which is how I want to keep it, because to admit that it is about dubya would be to say that Tool has alienated an entire segment of their fanbase (not republicans! Rather everyone else who wants to believe that Tool is more about a certain timeless introspection than the current zeitgeist of a politically polarized country). (That's right, I used zeitgeist in a sentence!)

Don't kid yourselves people....Tool is not above commenting on Political sides/state of the nation stuff. They absorb what's happening in the US just like everyone else who lives there....not sure why everyone thinks they're above it....

I really wish that the world was as simple as Alex in Chains makes it out to be. America's history of involvement in the Middle East and the history of America's armed forces being used as the goon squad for corporate interests is a very dense read. Anyone reading these histories and coming to the conclusion that this war is good for America or the world obviously fails to understand the current situation and how it relates back to the past.

The people opposed to anyone speaking out against this war or Bush and his handlers are the ones who fear the truth. And I don't blame them, because it is a frightening, difficult truth to face.

I feel this song is more about hypcrites in general, not any particular one. Tool has never been specific if their songs, Such as in Eulogy, he had no particular Martyr in mind, and even AEnima was about LA in a sense, but very vaguely, more about modern society.

Tool's music something for people to use for their own purposes and insipiration, not a means of sending a particular message, bashing any particular person or attempting to shove opinions down our throats. Their message is "Think for Yourself." not "Think like we tell you too."

This debate could go on for years along with topics such as

What is the little guy in "Sober" looking for?

Who was the Grudge about?

How about Ticks and Leeches?

These songs are all abstract and applicable to a number of things. They are more about overall feelings and attitudes than specific events, thats what makes them so timeless.

the only reason i feel that this song has to be about Bush is because it was such a historical event in the history of our nation--the recall vote leading to Bush's re-election. Obviously, Tool tends to be more generalized so as to transcend the popular culture, but in this instance I believe the point is that we need to recognize the significance of this singular event.
A similar point has been raised and presented as a theme in Radiohead's album, Hail to the Thief.

Agreed. Why do people always fear Tool becoming/being 'political'? To my ears, it sounds like they always have been political to an extent, although not as overtly as, say Rage Against The Machine. Also, Alex in Chains, while I agree with you that there is a certain childishness and over-simplification that comes with the likes of Michael Moore, there are others who oppose the war in Iraq and the war on terrorism (war on a noun? interesting concept) in a more credible fashion.

I agree.

It's kind of sad that tool fans (who are actually interested in the lyrics and messeges) would be the same kind of people who naively act as if mendacity plays no role in politics, and that incumbent administrations' (current and past) claimed intentions are purely geniune.

It's also funny when people pontificate as independent thinkers while insinuating exteme generalizations ( like all liberals, or people against the war, believe that way because they watch cnn or listen to michael moore and other depraved elites)

Also, anyone who truly understands history, understands that all historical accounts are merely stories from different perspectives (think 'hi + story'). Ergo, any given historical genius could have a wide variety of political positions, beliefs, et cetera.

Assuming right away that "The Pot" is about Bush is a good way of wasting the potential value of the song. Maybe try lateral thinking.

I think you may be right. There was a show called "hoppy the BUSH Kangaroo" in the late 60's, maybe a reference? Or also talking about a kangaroo court. Hang the jury with the innocent.

Ha ha ha. Perfect.

You can look to the past to justify Bush's actions.
You can, as most people do, blame the "liberal media" in a childish fashion.
You can, as most people do, associate liberal thinking with Michael Moore, though this is similar to me associating you with say...Pat Robertson.
But, at the same time, I can also call you an ignorant baffoon for being so immature and ridiculous.

You say to research US history in the middle east. Ok, I've researched hundreds of pages on the miserable failures we've had time and time again in the middle east. Now what. Spit some more of your conservative banter at me.

Excuses excuses.

The fact is Bush is a horrible leader, in fact he is a lot like Hitler. Before you start calling me a stupid liberal, lets consider ways in which Bush acts in parallel to previous dictators. (such as Hitler)

1) Use of propaganda to push ideals and influence nation. Lets thing about the Nazi party for a minute, according to Hitler in Mein Kampf - "The function of propaganda does not lie in the scientific training of the individual, but in calling the masses' attention to certain facts, processes, necessities, etc., whose significance is thus for the first time placed within their field of vision." For instance, lets push our ideals on other countries, and call it a war on terror. Hmm, it may just be me, but declaring wars on abstract concepts is strikingly similar to declaring war on a pizza. (On a second note, congress has not declared war on anyone, so this really isn't a war. What are they going to do, declare war on terror, and fight a war against the Bush Administration as well? Yup, they're terrorists.)

2) Anyone remember the SS or the Gestapo? Hitler created his own department for "homeland security," perhaps very similar to the one created by George W. Bush (officially) in 2002. This new cabinet department engulfed the CIA, the FBI, and the Secret Service, taking former Independent Agencies, and putting them under direct control of the Bush Administration.

3) In 1933 in Germany, Hitler was elected Chancellor, and thus suspended the constitution to put the Nazi Party in power. PATRIOT Act anyone? If i may quote from http://www.cptexas.org/articles/vp040103.shtml, "The Constitution states that, "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." It's called the 4th amendment, which makes it part of the Bill of Rights. And as we all know, each of the ten amendments comprising the Bill of Rights describe individual rights, accorded to all citizens, which cannot be abrogated by the State because they were specifically enacted to protect us from the State, as a pre-condition for ratification of the Constitution." Seems like the PATRIOT act is a direct violation of many of these rights guarenteed to us by the Bill of Rights.

4) Well, think of Bush's quote from December, 2000: "If this were a dictatorship, it would be a heck of a lot easier - just so long I'm the dictator." December 18, 2000 (strange, thats my birthday).

That is why i hate Bush, and that is why i think what he is doing is (according to my beliefs) fundamentally wrong.

go u!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Amazing... The scariest thing about this is that it's all so true...also how these 4 points aren't even the only similarities....damn.

I took bits from an essay i wrote for my Government and Politics class for that, heh, i have a few others that are funny too about nihilism and other things.

Anyways, my main point being, if you lose respect for a band that is expressing their opinions in extremely intellectual ways, you shouldn't listen to them because you're just being a close-minded fool.

I haven't seen any good interpretation of what the hell the line "Rob the grave to snow the cradle" means. It makes perfect sense when applied to Bush, but you need to know a little known fact first (http://www.reopen911.org/webgrabs/de...publicans.htm). There were more than 181,000 dead republican people who had their votes counted in the 2004 election, specifically just to give Bush the key swing states and steal the election! Furthermore an alternate definition of snow is, " 1. To overwhelm: I was snowed under with work.
2. To defeat by a very large margin." Lastly, the cradle is the presidency, his birthright, he's the son of an ex-president, his cradle.

EDIT: Actually try this link http://www.reopen911.org/proofstolen.htm

Anyone who thinks that a Persident GOre would have been as bad President Bush is has never bothered to read anything Al Gore has written or said. It is very comforting to just say "Oh, they are all the same...." but you should tell the 100,000 dead in Iraq that they are all the same. I bet that they would disagree with you.

Wow that’s quite a mouthful of meaningless babble and ignorance! Once again my favorite method of justification is used, I love the 2-party system! Just because a member of the democrat party happened to do the same thing years ago doesn't make it alright, and Crucify might not even be a democrat so in that case what you said is null and void. Its so dumb looking to the past for justification instead of seeking a way to stop it, so it doesn't happen in the future.

Ah yes, my second note to you is that you are in fact a hypocrite. You refer to Bush Bashing as if no other president got criticized (you never heard of carter-bashing or Clinton-bashing), but then mention the fact that no matter what the leader, there will always be "bitching." So what makes Bush so special that we're not allowed to criticize him? The post I submitted was an analysis of Bush's leadership characteristics and how they relate to those of Hitler...with sources and quotes. If that's considered Bush-bashing, apparently you believe presidential criticism is wrong.

Whoa, then you go and assume that I want president Bush to get things done "the EXACT FUCKING WAY [I] WANT IT TO." Calm down there pal, I’d much rather he didn't exist, and I’d much rather we rewrite the very basis of human existence, but that'll have to wait until I can do so myself.

THEN! (wow, you're big on assuming things) You assume someone is saying that the world was perfect before Bush. On the contrary! The world was "good" when Bush came in to office, and now it’s "fair." Soon enough, because of certain environmental and economic legislation, that fair will be dropped to "bad," and when alllllll of you close-minded dipshits come crying back to those of us who told you this country/the world was going down the fucking drain, I’m going to spit in your face and proceed to make you KISS MY ASS.

Touché.

I'm not sure why you're so mad and it's kind of humorous the way you've judged me so completely for that one post that you knew me enough to have an argument with me even though I wasn't here. All you know about me's what I've posted, dipshit.
Actually till about 3 months ago I was a huge concervative, and mostly got my news from the Fox News Network. Then I saw a video called, "Painful Deceptions" by Eric Hufshmid that scientifically proved that explosives were involved in 9/11 (google the video and watch it for yourself, if you don't then you're a sheep and a coward.) Since then I've been neither republican or democrat but i've received a sense of patriotism and duty to find answers and spread the truth, whatever the truth may be. There is corruption all over our government and if we continue to turn a blind eye and allow them to lie to us than it will only get worse and worse. "To announce that there may be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public"-Theodore Roosevelt.
O and to curb the onslaught of people that will most likely object to my statement about the towers, save it, don't talk until you've watched the video and thought about it. If you still think that explosives weren't involved, I encourage you to go to www.reopen911.org and take part in their 1,000,000 dollar challenge. The first person to scientifically explain how a plane and subsequent (relatively) small fire caused the towers to suddenly collapse an hour later the way they did, gets awarded 1,000,000 dollars (not even the 9/11 commission successfully proved their case). I made a thread awhile back called "Painful Decptions" in the movie review section and I go into the evidence, like the laws of free-falling objects and thermodynamics if your interested. Or actually the better thing to do would be to google the video, watch it, then think for yourself.
But back to the matter at hand, maybe the 181,000 dead people thing didn't happen, and it's extremely likely that it has nothing to do with this song, but why do you demand that i have to provide all the names for you? Just one name of a dead registered voter should raise an eyebrow (and if you love your country a fist and a voice too). And I can provide you with one name right now "Michel Pillet", died in 2002 and he's a registered voter in New Mexico to this day.

I agree with Alex in Chains. I did not buy emotive for that reason. i dont like anyone telling me what or who I should vote for whether im a Demi or a Republican. Quite frankly im tired of the whole anti-war music crap like Reznor, and others. I like to think I can make up my own decision.

That being said, I had though the opposite could be a possibility of this song... Think about it... who is always pointing thier fingers at the TV screen... Bin Ladin and that other jagoff. And being that they live in caves because they are scared to peek their heads out for fear of a U.S. sniper bullet, I would say they are eyehole deep in muddy waters. =)

This is the kind of thing that makes me never want to visit a messageboard ever again or associate myself with them in the slightest.

Anyone who thinks that most musician's politics aren't totally fucking obvious from their work, needs to listen a little harder. If you can't hear the politics in something like .... I don't know...... all of Tool's albums ever? Then there is no helping you.

And it's not about the music being dated. It's about seeing the same shit happening over and over again throughout history. Thanks to the human race, it's impossible for the music to be dated unless we CHANGE.

I could go on....

Oh, and don't give me any shit about "Artists shouldn't get involved with politics." Guess what? That's their fucking job if they're doing it right. You don't like it? Go listen to Jewel, who was recently quoted as saying "There's so much bad stuff going on right now, I just wanted to have fun and not think about it."

Philosophers, Musicians, Artists, Poets, Filmmakers, Photographers, etc..etc.... All of them have always made it a point to observe the world around them ESPECIALLY their governments....FOR CENTURIES.

"If you can't hear the politics in something like .... I don't know...... all of Tool's albums ever?"

umm ok, i guess i cant be helped. sorry i don't think of tool as being a political band like say rage against the machine or SOAD. Tool to me has always been more about mysticism and emotion and in their own words was meant to be a "tool" to get to a place you cant normally go by yourself. Sorry for you if you interpret that as political.

"Philosophers, Musicians, Artists, Poets, Filmmakers, Photographers, etc..etc.... All of them have always made it a point to observe the world around them ESPECIALLY their governments"

Just because someone is a musician, philosopher or poet does not automatically mean they have an obligation to "force" their beliefs to their fans. The responsible ones do it a way that makes people think from both sides and not just an ideologically charged side.

that being said, I find it funny that Maynard is all of a sudden "anti-war" and ""peaceful" when just 5 years ago he was singing about California falling into the ocean. just goes to show you, you cant take tool that seriously.