Listening to the song over and over, it makes me really wonder, are we really like Maynard describes?
Are we bloodthirsty beings waiting for a glimpse of death seeing through the eye of the media?

I think not actually. Not more now than ever anyway. It's just more accessible than let's say 100 years ago.
True we do see more blood and violence. But does that make us crave it?
I do admit I am (and we people) are blessed with the gift of curiosity and that's why the media is such a powerful tool because it feeds on our need to be satisfied in that area. But that doesn't make us zombies or junkies.

My opinion about this song is that Maynard is stating the obvious but is depicting us way worse than humankind actually is.

Any thoughts?

To answer the question of the thread title, I'd say that enough of us are, to enough of a degree, for someone to feel that way and write a song. Even someone who is intelligent creative and has a variety of perspectives to draw from. I might question it as a single, but it's not my band's single, so I won't.

You might already have your answer.

"Not more now than ever anyway." - fabienne78

"So it is, so it's always been" - Maynard

Yet, you kept typing and I understand if you're looking for more. My response to your final paragraph/conclusion is that the lyric could be seen to demonstrate an example of what it seems to be merely describing. Namely a fixation on the negative side of things, which fits the bent of thoughts some of the band members have recently aknowledged.

Both overtly and somewhat ironically I think the song suggests a form of ownership for both our urges and our judgements. As well dismissing our confusion and self-pity, suggesting that there is essentially an emotional war going on between all people, perpetuating the economic and artillery warfares going on.

Why are people getting bombed? Basically because people in other countries (ours?) like it that way on whatever mix of levels, for whatever 'reason'.

Even though there is an element of that at play I have to say - yeah right - and I feel that those ideas are actually challenged in other parts of the album, if at primarily oblique angles.

One word, gladiators.

Since there is no gladiator battles any more we turn to film, or video games. Any thing to get our fix of violence.

As humanity, yes. Personally, no. That might sound arrogant or whatever, but seriously, not me. I don't watch the new, or play video games, or slow down when there's an accident on the side of the road to look what happened, I don't follow what's happening in te wars, I don't get off on violence period. Dunno why, I just don't, not like its a conscious decision not to but I realize that it just doesn't appeal to me.

when writing social criticism, or human criticism, I think Maynard runs a democratic system where majority rules. Take a look at the people next time you go to walmart, or the grocery store or whatever place you see a large group of people....look at how fat and loathesome the majorities are becoming...even the children....why is that>?
Maybe their eye has been 'oen the TV' far too often....
my answer, yes, we are all like that....we've all seen "Most Extreme Videos" or something similar...and sometimes you just can't help but stop and watch for a bit....kind of like, lets say 'a zombie' ....yes, we are, it just depends on how forward or assertive your opinions are.....

In order to see what we need to see, or hear what we need to hear as a society, a community, or as an individual, we must be able to look at ourselves in every imaginable light... to weigh our prejudices and our vices against our compassion and our sacrifices. To not only seek these answers, but to be able to project them to a larger sense of fellowship is the appeal of tool... as it is the appeal of philosophy that teases our curiosity. It is not that the negative aspect of our being is mentioned without any regard to the positive aspects... only that our positive aspects draw far less attention than do the ugliest ones. So also is the case of Maynard's lyrics... the subtlety of his craft leads our attention where he wishes, but there is hope in understanding that also resonates through the songs.

public executions as well

"A person is smart, but people are stupid."

This quote represents that only a small few actually understand what is happening, and do something, even if it's remotely small, to still try and hinder the patterns of reasoning that is being brought into this world. Yet, mass wise, more than 2/3 of the population actually thrive off of small, time wasting things, that point out the negatives.

"I need to watch things die" Doesn't nessecarily hav eto mean, dieing literally. I also means, inside, emotionally, physically, spiritually, any number of that.

"A person" would understand there is something wrong going on, "but people", in general, don't comprehend the actual damage done to the person being targeted, and they thrive off of their opinions towards that target person. hence: celebrities and media.

-Andrew

It's a strange idea that people are getting bombed because a bunch of people like it.
Nah, I think wars and bombings are merely an expression of power. The only people who like watching innocent getting killed are power craving governments and religious groups being lead by dictators and such.

(PS forgive me if I'm not being sophisticated, I wish i could write it down the way it's in my head, but i have the tiresome obstacle of translating it too, I'm dutch see)

Anyway my point is, violence is not driven by public demand but by wanting power.

...not to mention fear....

Part of my last post somewhat out of context:

[I should have said that this part was essentially in paraphrase of "mother ...crying, 'why oh why?' because I need to watch things die"]

Why are people getting bombed? Basically because people in other countries (ours?) like it that way on whatever mix of levels, for whatever 'reason'.

Even though there is an element of that at play I have to say - yeah right -[...]

If I had been more clear I would have been explicit that I was paraphrasing one of the ideas from the song. From the lyric that goes: mother holding her child, up to the sky, asking why-o-why? -- because I need to watch things die. This is a natural, yet comedic extension of the idea that the media is making money off of war publicity, which might be our favorite choice to watch, for the wrong reasons.

To take ownership for my expression of that idea though, I do think the callous game-like competition between the urges and emotions of all people is active to a high degree. Not so much causing wars or begging for wars for sustenance, but I think our collective anger, at least in my country, is left waiting too long for justification. When our anger finally finds justification, it bursts, and we don't wait to justify (truly reflect on the experience of) whatever actions are first suggested and offered to give us a path that we hope will bring us release.


fabienne, all respect for challenging that idea, especially as it was put forward last time.

Your english seems very natural.

I agree here.
I also think the public is in want, in lack, of power.
I've known people who imagine there is arbitrary greediness for power in others, I think we are all power hungry. A very certain influence is deserved by everyone who can wield such (rather than merely by those who can 'earn' a share).

Those who seem greedy are either; over-eating while still lacking the power that could sustain them in balance with the people around them; answering a malnutrition in their ability to influence those close to them by getting carried away with their capacity to influence their own gang or mob. Or, they are consuming an addictive form of power that has become available but was not meant for them to consume, as when (a) people allow deference of their own power to others without any expectation that they would have the ability - that they should be permitted the amount of time and bodily energy - to truly participate in their own power.

Valid question. Great thread, everyone.

To me, the title of the song is the key to understanding it, and I feel ALL songs, Tool or otherwise, should follow that rule of thumb, even if the title doesn't appear in the lyrics.

I'll add these previously posted lines together to illustrate.

***"Not more now than ever anyway" - fabienne78
"So it is, so it's always been" - Maynard

***Since there is no gladiator battles any more we turn to film, or video games. Any thing to get our fix of violence.

***I think our collective anger, at least in my country, is left waiting too long for justification.

Throughout history humans have greedily craved power achieved through conquest. Not only as individuals, but by communities wanting to "be on the winning team". To have access to the best of what the world has to offer, or be at the forefront of the next "age". All animals do it; just not on the advanced level we do, but territorially speaking, for the same reasons. Our societies have advanced, but there is an inherent defense mechanism in each of us that we have not 'evolved' from and it needs to be satisfied. So, while not every one on the planet engages in combat, an interest remains. The video game mention by DJR is a great individual example of that. Likewise, as I watch the (one-sided) news on TV, it is not because I like to see and hear about misery, but rather I want to know what is being done about it to end the suffering. However, I can't help but think, why is there so much suffering on our planet? Perhaps the people I see as victims were once the predators who now reap what they'd sown.

There is a line from 'The Matrix' by Agent Smith about humans defining themselves by their misery. A close perception, IMO. I think one way we define ourselves is by our triumphs over greater and greater trials, and so we compare trials with each other to judge what would be more difficult to overcome. To no end, save to relate to each other...a vicarious situation, yes?

Ultimately, I think Maynard is portraying the dominant minority of government, world/country leaders and those I would consider 'sick' as they 'get off' on their ability to destroy and the lifelessness their destruction leaves. They are not most people, IMO, but they may be the focus of most people.

i dont pick that up from the song.

then what do you gather from it>?

well.... this may be longer than you want, but....

I think that he’s not necessarily Maynard having any less faith in humanity than said in any of his other songs. I think Vicarious is more about the dead life that so many of us (to me, specifically Americans) live: just moving through, living a lifeless life. We have become so used to the ridiculous hatred and ridiculous acts of hate that they are nothing to us. For example, you hear about some disturbing incident like a gang rape or some sick murder and you say to yourself, “what the fuck? Thats messed up.” But 10 minutes later, you are on your way again continuing on with your life. We are like “zombies” with our eye on the media (eye on the TV) listening to the stories of blood. Stare like a junkie into the TV while the mother (passion, love, creator of life) holds her child (you and me and every other junkie), watches him die (fall into this routine life where people vicariously live by doing jobs they don’t want, living in a shit house hold, adultery). it’s not our life we are living, but the American lifestyle: go to school, get a job, get married, have kids. Everything means nothing. The only “flavor” or story to life is that fucked up murder on tv where someone’s getting killed by their husband or son… someone’s family. It’s nothing new. You know you’ve heard it. Vicariously we live on while we hear and listen to the TV that the whole world dies, and we keep going and moving on. It would be pleasantly abnormal if there were not crimes.
“We won't give pause until the blood is flowin'
Neither the brave nor bold
Will write us the story so
We won't give pause until the blood is flowin'.”
So, yes. In a way, yes is talking about the blood in the media and the fact that we take it in. But, I think it’s more focused towards the dehumanization that has been going on in all our lives. I don’t think that it is narrowly focused on the media or us being bloodthirsty. He’s telling us (or I feel that he is telling me) that we are all living a lie (lalala…).
In this life, it’s every human for their own.
“The universe is hostile
So impersonal
Devour to survive
So it is, so it's always been ...”
So if I vicariously I live while the whole world dies as I have been taught to do by the people before me (not necessarily on purpose)… then maybe I’ll live ? I think not. The real question is are you really alive? We are zombies...... that live..... vicariously.

i feel obligated out of self respect to deny it all, and then maynard shoves that in my face and says "why don't we just admit it?" You know that you don't want to.

You should realize, that ALL generalizations have exceptions. Yes, we are ALL guilty of this to some extent, which justifies the generalization by the song. I don't really watch much TV anyway, but I do try to avoid these kinds of shows that are geared around other people's tragedies. I always have had these kinds of feelings about TV and what its become. I feel obligated out of self respect to myself to NOT watch this crap. But I do get the song's point and believe that the generalization is true...

You all have very very good points there, thank you guys. Cool. I'm glad I've posted my question, it all makes a whole lot more of sense to me.
- a788 "He’s telling us (or I feel that he is telling me) that we are all living a lie (lalala…)."
I think you have great point there too. Food for thought.

Its sad with all that war, terror, hunger, sickness, weather catastrophes and what elses on this planet we live. nobody have et exact answer of why we are doing evil things to each other. I'll just wish that it would stop. Im defently not like maynards talking about. I dont need to watch thing die, neither on close hand or from distance.

Psh, you all need it too, don't lie!

WHATever! Keep! Digging! 'Til I!! Feel! Something!

thank you a788 for drawing out something i hadn't put together: a very important concept behind this song.

for me, this song brings thoughts of the countries of africa and the middle east (also the focus of my studies, so that happens...). those nations and underdeveloped areas around the world provide our VICARIOUS thrills in watching true life struggle: humans dying by the hundreds, thousands, and millions in famine, war, and genocide. Some, like the child mentioned in the song, are innocents dying from AIDS epidemics, severe malnutrition, or child soldiering. These are deaths that the Western powers (so if not directly us, then the people we elect and empower) can choose -or not- to end (and have chosen to cause in many ways). A decision is made one way or the other with action or inaction.

And so are we unfeeling 'zombies'? Or is Maynard the "monster" for pointing out that we don't actually care about the death that we see on tv?

"neither the brave nor the bold will write us the story so we won't give pause until the blood is flowing." i think this is directed at the news media. newsjunkies could tell you easily about the latest controversial case at the supreme court or the exact number of republicans who voted for the bullshit flag burning amendment but couldn't tell you the meaning of any of it. Most Americans can't pick out Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Lebanon, the Sudan, Uganda, Rwanda...or their asshole on a world map, let alone tell you how Hamas, Hezbollah, or the Ayatollah came to power. But does the news media bother to provide the facts? Of course not, the majority of "the bold" yellow journalists who brave Hurricane Katrina or bombings in Beirut want the sensational story that (supposedly) brings in the ratings.

It is interesting as well to note that the stories he mentions at the beginning of the song are all possible headlines from our hometowns: "Like 'killed by the husband, 'drowned by the ocean,' shot by his own son,' she used a poison in his tea, kissed him goodbye'". We are surrounded by this violence but "why can't we just admit it?"

sidenote: love this lyric "pull your head on out your head please and give a listen." maybe—stop being so selfish, and pay attention...

so, "are we really like that?" great question.

Maybe in the Netherlands you aren't, but in the USA sure. What they show on TV is worse than in Europe. :)

I disagree.

Here in America, at least, we are bombarded by images in film, yet the images on the television RARELY show actual death or corpses or fresh blood or anything of the sort. It's "exploitation" or "against the family's wishes" or something else. I mean, come on, let's step back a few centuries and remember what people saw daily (and what many third-world citizens see even today):
- the Plague
- public executions
- life expectancy down near 50 or less (think about how many dead people the living saw day in and day out because people would just DIE and it's not like they had morticians or anything.

SO... no, I DON'T think we see more blood and violence today.

Maybe not on your tv, but here we get a warning first an than uncensored images of gruesome shit happening all over the world.
And I'm not just talking about news images, I'm talking about all the shit you can find on the Internet (and you don't have to look very hard to find it). I agree that many years ago people were confronted with plague and public executions, but nowadays you have a click of a button or turn of a newspaper page, and you see more sick images people then could even imagine.

It's the same stupid hypocrisy you have there in the USA about sex.
Naked butts and even tits all over the place, but the word fuck gets bleeped out.

Hey guys people are starving, bleeding to death, suffering but we won't show you how because it might upset you.

[/QUOTE]It's the same stupid hypocrisy you have there in the USA about sex.
Naked butts and even tits all over the place, but the word fuck gets bleeped out.

Hey guys people are starving, bleeding to death, suffering but we won't show you how because it might upset you.[/QUOTE]


You are so right, and I think this is part of the meaning of the song. Part of what I get from this song is that we need to stop and actually look at the faces of the victims so we may see the real tragedy and give a shit. Fake violence has no censorship, but when it comes to real violence they dont show you what happens, so all we have in our minds is a movie image. People think that showing these images on tv will desensitise us to violence, that is a joke, we're desensitised to reality, and if we actually saw what we were doing to other people we might wake up to ourselves and stop thinking of it as a video game.

trageddy fills me

FEEL all you want about it. Will we do anything>? I doubt it

Well then let's go further back to ancient Greece. Clytemnestra stabbing her husband in his own bath and getting titilated playing with the blood?

The Furies descending on a person and ripping him, literally, limb from limb?

Soldiers talking through a hole in their throat with their nose hacked off?


The Greeks lived it. Hundreds would turn up to watch these plays being performed, gore and bloodlust is apparent in all their mythologies and most famous works.

Oedipus who mistakenly had sex with his mother and killed his father? and when he found out he took out...his own eyes?

It's always been accessible. And whereas these classic tales survive now, I doubt in a thousand years anyone will remember Saving Private Ryan. Why?

Ah, now maybe THERE'S a decent link to the song...

you mean our bloodlust>? Yea, its a cheap trick used to sell seats even back then....same thing our local news does, the nationwide news, newspapers, talkshows, etc etc etc.....thats part of the song...social commentary or criticism....

The media only uses violence because that is what we want to see. Some people are too quick to blame TV or video games. It's been said a lot but it's true; violence was around before television. Media reflects society. Not vice versa.

Yes, you are right. Violence has been around since the begining. True....true. However, the media WAS NOT. So BEFORE TV and millions of different forms of "the media" no one had a chance to sit and watch it. I mean sure, some of that shit sells papers, but if that's ALL you show, then the sheep just go numb and think that's all there is...so yea, let's all watch and see! Eat it up! I mean really in the early days, I seriously doubt any of the normal everyday Joe's woke up thinking...man! I'd sure like to see that wagon train get massacred by a bunch of savages..
My point is, sure, blood sells....but is that really the purpose? Is that what their purpose should be>? Should they not at least try and offer something educational? Or is everything about the mighty $>?
As for your idealistic "Media reflects society...." Blah! Media reflects entrepreneurship...that's all.

Yes. The first news stories I read are about tragedy. Maybe he's using death as an extreme, but yeah. Stories about good things happening don't make the news cause they are boring. My favorite site for bad news is dailyrotten.com, which I visit daily to quench my thirst for horrible news. It's amusing to me.

I CAN ADMIT IT (anonymously though)

We most definetly are, news stations for example reporting every death/suicide bomb/ war death count/anything war related/ check out www.Ogrish.com Small warnings though that site does contain "Explicit Content" just to let the easily offended know. Even the ppl who do get easily offended by death still are curious as to what happened in the incident/event.

This is true, to see something of this nature was not uncommon. But these people lived this tragedy, and it defined their lives... these days, for those of us that do not have to experience these things first-hand, and with the access that the media gives us, we have not only become accustomed to these gruesome images, but are less likely to be affected, because we are witnessing it..... everyone say this with me now...... vicariously; I remember many fellow associates at work sending around emails of Iraqis being blown apart when the war began, with complete disregard for a fairly strict email policy.

The manner in which it is presented to us, in small digestible clips, is the difference... its an acquired taste that becomes a familiar taste... which becomes a craving, and if unchecked, an addiction.

One thing you need to recognize is the point the last verse is getting across.

The UNIVERSE IS HOSTILE SO IMPERSONAL. DEVOUR TO SURVIVE SO IT IS.
Whats he getting at? There is no line where we're "worse" or better than anything out there. Thats the nature of life. IT feeds on life. Things devour each other, we need to see theses things happen, cause after all, its what we are. Cmon, he can admit it, hes waiting for you to . Its not like we're some how evil for needing to watch violence and destruction. thats just the way things work.
thats all i have to say.

good point.

the media's(television's) violence show has nothing to do with FEEDING anything; save their bank accounts. If there were headlines reading "100's of CATTLE DIE TODAY in SLAUGHTERHOUSE" then you may have a point. That is NOT what is on the news or CSI or any of the other shows based on bad-taste and gore.
I agree with the statements "Life feeds on life" and "Devour to survive, so it is, so its always been." But the shit on TV is nothing more than a ploy to "sell" papers or airtime. Somehow, somewhere, someone told the media that blood sells. Yes, we have been devouring to survive since we got here, but does it really need to be a show>? Do you really NEED to see it>? Maybe to get an idea about whats really going on, however, thats really not ALL that goes on and its not really the truth or knowlege or anything of use. Its a waste of your mind....yours and mine and anyone else!

I think we have that feral instinct to want to see the savageness of nature... a glimpse at mortality. Kids pick up bugs and throw them into the spider's web. It's not the media's fault. It's in our nature to want to witness mortality and death, without experiencing it first hand. I think it ties in with our fascination and fear of death.