This is something i posted on a myspace group forum a few months ago, back then i almost came back on here to post it, but i decided not to after remembering how people on here would respond to this sort of thing back when i quit posting here. posting this here is something of an experiment for me, i would like to see what kind of responces i get from people here. i would like to believe that tool fans are open-minded toward ideas that differ from their own. but past experience tells me that tool fans are worse than most people about accepting ideas that do not coincide with their own.. anyway, lets see..


posted months ago:


well, im listening to 10000 days all the way through. i have been thinking about the album. most of you will not like what i have to say about it..

let me say it right at first, i think maynard is a christian. i always have thought that. not a door to door type, but a person that really understand the philosophy of it.

i have thought this since i listened to Ænima when it came out. since then many songs have stood out to reflect the christian philosophy. now i know many people will quote things he said about religion and "agents" but that goes along with it. when he spoke about people using religions for their own ends, he was saying that there are people who will use anything to their own profit. they will twist a message in order to gain power. these people dont really believe in the message itself, they believe in controlling peoples beliefs. they want to take something from their followers. they will never give anything back.

anyway, i have thought tool and apc have had a lot of christian themes throughout their albums. listen to gravity and think of it as a prayer to a higher power to see what i mean. the new album is full of christain ideas.

i find that vicarious is more of a statement about the current mentality of americans. the song is mocking, or maybe just pointing out how people dont care enough about others anymore. this song has parts that i think are being spoken from a standpoint of a person with no spirituality, this person hates anythign pure, they want to see it all brought down. this person despises christianity. for some reason, i dont believe that maynard says this from his own standpoint. he is pointing out how evil people are when all they care for is themselves.

in jambi, a person starts out with a hedonistic veiwpoint. this is clear in the beginning verse:

"Feast like a sultan, I do
On treasures and flesh never few"

but after that the person begins to see things differently, he realizes that he may lose something dear to him. the next verse is very interesting:

"The devil and his had me down
In love with the dark side I've found
Dabblin' all the way down
Up to my neck soon to drown.
But you changed that all for me
Lifted me up, turned me round"

something turned him around, he found someone that made him realize that his hedonism was not right, he chose a different path. he chooses to follow something else, something giving, something that cares for others, something that brings things together instead of tearing down:

"Shine on forever
Shine on benevolent sun
Shine down upon the severed
Shine until the two become one
...
Shine down upon the many, light our way,
Benevolent sun."

the next song, wings for marie pt 1 and 2, is unquestionably about maynards mother. in the song he praises her devout christianity. he is thanking her for all she did to teach him her religious philosophy. he does criticise the people who dont understand or follow the religion that they claim, but overall the song is trying to put across a message that there are people that dont live a lie and still practice their christianity, he wants us to realize that christians are good people overall. i will not comment too much on this song because i think it is self explanitory. the last verse is something that stands out to me though:

"Please forgive this bold suggestion:
Should you see your Maker's face tonight,
Look Him in the eye, look Him in the eye, and tell Him:
I never lived a lie, never took a life, but surely saved one.
Hallelujah, it's time for you to bring me home."

i believe that maynard is making a statement that his mother saved him, that he has begun to understand and perhaps even convert to her religion and life philosophy. who else would he be saying that she "saved"?

i dont listen to the pot often, but i think it is about peter, jesus' desciple that always seemed to have his foot in his mouth. he was the one that denyed christ 3 times, when he realized it, he cried about it, he realized his hypocracy.

lost keys is an intro to rosetta stoned. perhaps it may say something about a mental breakdown. perhaps the patient has suffered from a mental trauma that has shaken all his beliefs to the core.

rosetta stoned is like a vision, some higher power came and gave this person a philosophy that he couldnt understand, he has no way to understand it even though it is a pure thing that he should understand. he wants to give the message to others, but they will never be able to understand because he doesnt even really understand. his message is lost, no one will ever see it. people will take it and use it for their own ends, he is helpless to stop that.

intension goes on from this, his message is beginning to get followers that attempt to understand, they want to help the world to become a better place. they have good intensions, but that wont stop the fire. there are people who want to take the message and use it for violence. the dont care about the message, they just want to use the raw energy of it for their own purposes. we see that in the history of christianity and other religions.

in right in two, a person is reflecting upon the pure ideas, and how the message was raped. the person looks back on it and sees how pure the original idea was, but also sees the war and sufferign that it was used for. they are watchign from teh sidelines, they cant stop the masses, no one can.

the entire album is about the rape of christianity. maynard wants people to understand the pure intensions of the religion, but understands that most will just follow the power hungry leaders. he wants christians to look at their religion from their own point of veiw, think about it for themselves, not just blindly follow what they are told. if people do this with christianity, they will find a very pure religious philosophy that may help them with their life. but if you blindly follow what you are told, you will succumb to the will of the agents..

anyway, these are my thoughts, flame me for them or whatever..

after listening more, i have changed a few of my ideas, mostly about the pot. after listening to it more, i think it has to do with a person that has recently converted to christianity, and the reactions of the people around that person.

Interesting. I like your thoughts on some things and not on others.

I consider myself a Christian. I still do not think Maynard is a Christian, but I do think that, because of his mother, he has always had an insightful way of looking into the theology, namely what makes sense from it and what is ridiculous.

It was an interesting read though, and it's good to see people still thinking around here and not constantly finding themselves in petty back-and-forths.

Thanks for posting.

EDIT:
I mean to comment with a few more specifics, and I forgot. I think it might be more about the rape of religion rather than Christianity specifically, more pointedly things that are supposed to be righteous paths but eventually and, perhaps inevitably, become perverted. Only the few (his mother) really get it and are truly good people, and those, who aren't hypocrites, should be unquestionably held to the highest regard by whoever our creator may be.

It just used that specific religion and its imagery in this case. I don't completely agree but I do like your idea about Rosetta Stoned and I think Right In Two is basically saying the damage is done, we're all fucked now. Mom's gonna fix it all soon...

If you're gonna post here claiming MJK's a Christian, then someone's gonna flame you. Those fans who dislike Christianity find inspiration in Maynard's lyrics, and some will oppose your view strongly. So, given that you have posted this here, you should be prepared to defend your views against such responses.

I think you're very wrong, but I'm not going to flame you.

The lyrics don't specifically reference Christianity, or even religion at all.

Something or someone. The song doesn't specify who or what. Many people are guessing it was his son.

I really don't see where he specifically thanks her for that. I see this song as a recognition of what he feels is worthy of respect in Christianity. Not her religious philosophy or dogma, but her unconditional faith and commitment to her Christian morality.

Saved him from suicide perhaps? Or, less dramatically, saved him from giving up on himself by believing in him? "Saved" here certainly doesn't have to imply religious conversion.

The Pot is definitely about hypocracy, but I don't see anything in the lyrics to suggest that it is specifically about Peter. Can you back this claim up by reference to the lyrics? I don't think this song is about any one person in particular, but is meant to be quite general in application (just like the similar songs from previous albums).

I think you mean intentions. "Intension" is an entirely different word. Look it up.

These are my responses. I don't think I've flamed you or said anything to cause offense. Respond or not. Whatever...

but in the context it surely implies religiously


in my second post i said that i have changed my opinion about this song. when i originally wrote this, the pot didnt seem to fit too well, i had only listened to the song maybe a couple times. it is a song that i have not been able to listen to at all. the beginning of the song causes me to skip it. i have felt that way about the song up until last night when i saw it performed live. i will be listening to this one a lot more.


i will do that. i hadnt noticed the difference in spelling until now. after looking it up, im still not seeing a problem with this interpretation.. mainly because i see this song as something of a bridge between rosetta stoned and right in two. i see the entire second have of the cd as one song something like disposition/reflection/triad

nope, you didnt flame me, and nothing offends me.

good post jp. i may not agree with all that you have laid out there, but i do agree with your thought that maynard is a christian. and i couldn't be happier.

^^^jokes^^^

I just want to add a little something to this post. I read a book by Joseph campbell, and it was a comparison of all or most of the worlds religions. Joseph came to find that All religions are basicly the same thing, explaning spirituality through Mythology. Each religions Mythology could be interpreted to teach a lesson that each other religion also tough. While i feel that the members of this band are spiritual in there own way, none of them subscribe to the dogma of any set religion. More like they take something different from several religions and cultures.

Yes, because telling his mother to "fuck your god, your christ" and telling the heavens to "fetch the spirit, the son and the father" is something a devout christian would say

You're right,.. a devout Christian may not say those things,.. although a frustrated, fed-up individual may say those things. Attributes, meaning identifying labels, of a human come second to everything else.

this is mostly a semantical argument at this point, with both sides using the term "christian" but having two (at least) seperate definitions of what the word means. i see one side using it to mean those who go to a certain the of church that teaches the xtian bible, and the other meaning following the true teachings of christ (whether or not thats even possible to know, who knows).

i think the op has it right saying dude may have been some sort of xtian from the beginning, because he has said, and i have heard him say live that the agents have co-opted the message of different messiah types throughout history and have bastardized their original meanings.

so that would mean he believes that jesus, mohammed et al had a truthful message to begin with.

does that make him a christian? again, whats your definition of the word.

i would say most modern american xtians would consider maynard a satanist. and i have many reasons to say thats how he would describe himself as well.

of course, he could be like gene simmons and simply cultivating an image to sell to the youth of our sad cultue. he did love kiss as a child.

Satanists don't realize what they are until escape from that is already impossible.

huh?

I think this is a pretty good point. Regardless of what it is context with here, it's a good point by itself.

Basically insaner, it's worded weirdly but it means Satanists dont realize what they are, until it's too late to get away from it.

I think something else that maynard might be trying to say is the simple fact that some "christians" do call him a satanist, yet some "christians" call him a christian... I got to a christian college and I do consider myself a christian, and one thing I always tell people here is think about one man: Marylin Manson. In an interview he told reporters that the reason he acts the way he does, and the reason he rips bibles on stage, is because the kids that made fun of him the most were the people who called themselves christians. Americas' "christian" nation is becoming just a label, and the orginal idea of christianity was right, but america has raped it....

I believe maynard only likes the ideas of christian morality. I've takened christian religion for over 12 years in grade school to high school. I'm actually anti-religion because of that. I believe that religion has too many restrictions and tells us how to do things. I believe in their morality though. Even though it makes me too much of a nice guy who gets fucked in the end, i always feel better because i know i've done what's right.

And i believe maynard thinks the same way.


edit:

Manson can rip bibles in half? whoa! lol that's a tough thing to do :P

Count me as another Christian Tool fan. Personally, I think some of the messages Maynard is putting across are just as positve as those coming from the pulpit of my church on Sunday mornings. I also think Maynard knows as much, if not more, about Christianity than I do. But that does not make him a Christian. Even Satan himself believes in God and knows that Jesus is Lord. He just doesn't give a fuck. I see Mayard in a similar light. No, I'm not saying he is Satan or is even a Satanist, but I think he knows the truth but hasn't chosen to apply it to his life in the way that I as a Christian have. For example, I don't think Maynard is constantly searching for God's will in his life. He is likely more concerned with his own will. However, he does seem like a moral person and wants the best from life for himself and others. I just don't think God factors into that equation for him. I could be wrong, but that is what I've gathered from having studied his lyrics. But keep in mind, human personalility is a very complex thing. One Christian may be nothing like another. As I'm sure you can tell, I'm a much more liberal Christian than most I know. However, when you get down to it, I believe in God, I believe he sent his son Jesus to this earth to die for our sins, I believe he rose from the dead and ascended to Heaven and will return again and until that time, I want to live my life in a way that will be pleasing to God. I'm not perfect, but I believe God has a perfect plan for me and I hope I can eventually come to know what that is and acheive it. Does Maynard feel that way? I sort of doubt it.

why do people get so bent out of shape about whether or not the lead singer of a rock band believes in god or not?

Well, we're not really getting bent outa shape about it. We're talking about it and are just curious. I mean, when we first heard of them- some of us probably thought Tool was some kind of devil worhsipping band lol

Whatever an artist believes doesn't affect the content of the music at all. Music isn't about the artist, its about the listener. Worrying about an artist's beliefs is like worrying about their image, which is of course bullshit.

Some of us look up to maynard's thinking. Or atleast what the lyrics say.

thats what i thought he meant, but what i am saying is that maynard is in a satanic society and actively practices a certain version of satanism.

um, they are.

i couldnt disagree more. every artist i can think of, if not 99.999999% of them, have all cultivated an image, even if the image was "no image."

an artists image is wholly tied to his art, and becomes a part of the artistic process in itself.

are you agreeing with them being a devil worshipping band? if so please just leave now lol

all artists who care about their work don't have an image. Saying no image is an image is like saying atheism is a type of religion. No its not. Its a complete lack of an image. And if you start worrying about your image while creating art, your entire credibility is compromised. I really couldn't disagree with you anymore.

again, one would have to define exactly what devil means, but yes, im saying they are a devil worshipping band, and why would i leave because of that? do you disagree, because i would love to debate it, if that isnt obvious by now.

all artists who care about their work dont have an image? thats simply rediculous. but ok i will bite- name one.

Yeah it's ridiculous. A band with integrity still has an image.

Are you an actual fan of Tool or some Anti-tool guy who comes here when you're bored in your mom's basement?

You're making it seem like Tool cuts goat's up and drink the blood in front of some kind of Satan worshipping statue... Is that what you think they do? They do not worship anything evil like a devil, it's excatly the oppisite.

no, thats not at all what i think they do, although i bet you would be surprised at some of the rituals that DO go on inside an O.T.O. lodge.

as for liking tool, they are far and away my favorite band, and i have loved them and dragged my ass aorund the country since 1993 to see them as many times as possible. why is it such a strecth for everyone to believe they (at least danny and maynard) are satanists? i mean, its completely obvious to anyone who knows anything about crowley or the oto. when i say worship the devil, its not the stereotypical first thought of someone who thinks its about human sacrifice and goats blood. study a little, and you can find out for your self.

and believe me, if my mom had a basement i could live in, i would be there.

all bands have an image. period. end of story.

I don't think Maynard is a christian, but I don't think he rejects it either. I think he was a firm believer at one time who became bitter because his priest father was abusive and his faithful mother was paralyzed. I think he still believes in the higher power, and it seems quite obvious in his lyrics. I do not think that wings for marie or 10,000 days have a christian theme.

"Fetch me the father, the son, and the spirit. Tell them the pillar of faith has ascended."

This line alone, if anything shows defiance towards god and christ. It reflects the ongoing battle between himself and god. He still isn't sure what to believe at this point.