Not to sound silly about it... but take Puff the Magic Dragon, for example... does it really matter if the song was written to imply marijuana use? Millions of children sing the song, read the lyrics, and they think/know it's about a magical dragon and his little friend Jackie Paper. So who's got the right interpretation? Did you ever stop and think that perhaps someone on the lyrical level of Maynard could write multiple meanings into songs and purposely choose passages that have multiple meanings because maybe it's about a lot of different things to the writer himself?

Just because the artist thinks of their art as having a specific message/meaning doesn't mean that that is the ultimate meaning. We are all one. Everything is one. The fact is that a piece of art, be it a painting, a song, or a sculpture mean only what it means to the observer. There are an infinite number of interpretations to anything, which is why we are all one. Everything is just an interpretation of everything else. Thinking that there is only one meaning and everyone else's ideas are simply subjective mistakes and illusions - well... that's what starts things like holy wars, too.

When you give up the right to be the observer you give up the right to think for yourself.

And that, I believe, is exactly what Maynard would emphatically not want any of his listeners to do.

so basically... nothing or something means anything and everything to everyone and nobody.

deep stuff

Puff the magic dragon song... which meaning is right? The drug meaning if that's what it was originally written about.

Just because people personalize a song to fit their own interests.. doesn't make it "right."

get all philosophical if you want... tell me there are no absolute truths... tell me I am not even really alive.. I mean, who can argue against ... nothing or something means anything and everything to everyone and nobody.

Maynard had 1 meaning in mind.

Like I said, if people want to misinterpret the song and be a pig in mud. Squeal away. It's fine with me.

Just don't come on an opinion page and rant around how I shouldn't express my opinion.

I bet I'm not really even on this opinion page...

>poof<

From a quantum mechanics standpoint? Theoretical physics has nothing to do with this.

Existentialism, perhaps ...

There may be no objective meaning of the song to the INDIVIDUAL ... and yes, you could say that the meaning, interpretation and experience are all subjective to the individual.

But, I am interested in Maynard's meaning ... how could you not be? The song can hold your own personal meaning as well ... but how could you not be interested in the actual OBJECTIVE meaning of the song? Because, I promise there is one.

Dude I don't want to sounds like a dick but your not really embracing other's opinions either and you act like your word is fact and that you know what you say is absolutely truth and everyone else is an idiot. Ultimately yeah when Maynard wrote the song he had one thing in mind, will we ever know what it is? No thats just plain and simple the band has never explained any of their music. So think about it if they aren't going to tell us the one true meaning of their music then its open to multiple interpretations all of which may be right.

go re-read PhiRatio's post again slowly....

This thread is fantastic.

ThreeDeviations is a smart guy. But you see, the reason he is a smart guy, is because he's taken the smart approach to being smart. The problem is with most listeners that they think the meaning is so buried within the depth of layers because of the heavy use of metaphor, when a lot of times his lyrics are blatant and painfully obvious.

I am a lyricist and vocalist. I like to think I write from a similar viewpoint. Write within ONE intended personal meaning, but leave it vague enough through metaphor and subject matter than can be easily related to, so that your own intended ONE true meaning can stay secret. Therefore you have given yourself as a lyricist and writer that emotional release, while still maintaining some discretion.

There is ONE true intended meaning, but he wants you to interpret it as you see fit. It's Maynard's way of weeding out the dumbshits from the evolved and observant. Also, he wants you to listen to the MUSIC. Think about that.

I say Bravo ThreeDeviations, you're getting the point.

Ok see though I am saying that there is a meaning and only Maynard knows it, you act like you know the meaning and everyone else is wrong. Then again not everything has a meaning all of those years of people saying things about The Beatles' music it turns out alot of it was more simple than we thought.
So is there one meaning or any meaning at all? Nobody can say except Maynard and I personally believe the song means something to Maynard but we will never know and maybe aside from the crazy consipracy Tool fans he might appreciate that his fans get their own message out of his words and it enhances their lives in a way that what it meant to Maynard probably couldn't.

So ... if the song is about the use of psychedelics, what exactly is the message? That it's a waste of time to use psychedelics? I think not. There are obvious drug references, but just because the title has the word "stoned" in it shouldn't imply that the song is about a bad trip.

Rosetta Stone, the key to hieroglyphics ... so, why change it to stoned? Because the the song is about the burden that goes along with bearing such a message ... something as difficult and cryptic as hieroglyphics to most people.

"Overwhelmed as one would be, placed in my position.
Such a heavy burden now to be the One
Born to bear and read to all the details of our ending,
To write it down for all the world to see."

He's overwhelmed that he holds this key and he's burdened with trying to deliver the message while we all sit around as if we are too stoned to understand it ... He has they key, but we refuse to use it ...

I agree with ThreeDeviations, I think he has offered a good interpretation of the song ... To the rest of you ... you talk like he is basically 'stoned' when it comes to his own little 'subjective' meaning. How hypocritical.

Ok, i was expecting you to give me some shit actaully, but you're kinda agreeing with me. Anyway, i never said you were right or wrong, i just don't like your attitude. This is after all an OPINION forum and nobody can be totally right or wrong.
The Reason maynard doesnt put lyrics up until about a month after the release of an album is so that people FEEL the music rather than read the lyrics and THINK about the music and meanings. we're supposed to feel things and get an experience from it.




SO, in MY OPINION, the song is not about maynard at all, but he is indeed trying to convey a message (and i think i am with you on this one), the same kind of message that we can get from "vicarious".
This guy took acid and saw some amazing things that opened up his eyes, and he was given an importatn message to deliever, but he forgot it, he didnt pay attention to the important things, instead he remembers all the inconsequential stuff (eating a box of krispy kremes, pissing his pants, orange slice and fetal spooning). Basically I THINK maynard is saying that people arent getting the whole message fromhis sings or from society and especially not from the TV, because we're not looking at the big picture, we're not seeing whats actaully going on. Maynard is not "the ONE" refered to in this song, you, I and everyone is "the ONE".

Yes, I as well am interested into what Maynard thinks about the song. Just as much as I'm interested in what everyone else thinks about it. My point was simply that just because Maynard writes a song to mean something... if no one else ever 'gets it' then sorry... other than to Maynard, it doesn't mean that. You talk about personalizing a song's meaning. Well what do you think Maynard does? Do you think because he wrote it its meaning is less 'personalized' than mine or yours?

'Actual OBJECTIVE meaning'? - So Maynard is above the subjective experience? You think that because he writes something that makes him objective? Perhaps you don't know what subjective/objective means... Uncertainty Principle at it's finest.

Tool's music is a tool. Just like had I designed the wheel ages ago to actually be a table and someone came along and looked at that tool and decided it would work better as a wheel. Well, it's still my creation... there was still a 'meaning' behind what I created but if someone comes up and creates a new meaning for it then that person's assigned meaning is just as valid as mine. Me being the creator doesn't give me some divine right to determine meaning.

Even if Maynard has one meaning in mind it doesn't matter. He reaches out into the cosmos of the mind and pulls together words and phrases out of the infinite and shapes them into something. That particular something means something to him. Maybe something specific, maybe a couple things - either way, he may have sculpted the creation, but his subjective interpretation of what it means is no more valid than yours or mine.

Don't deify Maynard by saying whatever message he had in mind is what the message of the song is. It's just the message as Maynard sees it. If you want to have a like-mind with Maynard, well, I s'pose there are far worse people you could seek to think like.

And the 'quantum mechanics' line was totally relevant. Maybe you should look more into quantum mechanics and what it actually is before you just catagorize it as 'theoretical physics' - which is like saying 'a nuclear reaction is hot' - no shit... it's also a bit more than that.

Finally - let's play the monkeys on the typewriter game. Let's say a pack of monkeys sit around for a few million years and eventually randomly key out an epic poem. Now that poem is read by many and it has an interpretation from each. Whose is right? Now that there is no 'creator' of the art does that mean it lacks 'true meaning'? And if it does, that means that Maynard's created meaning is as irrelavant as the monkeys'. All that matters is what every individual gets out of it. OR, let's say that without a creator art DOES have 'true meaning' - who determines that?

Maynard is just a tool of the universe like you and I. And we're all the same tool. We're nothing but an expression of reality. Existentialism has nothing to do with it. We *are* the universe. So when one of us comes up with an idea... In simplist terms it's just the universe manifesting an idea through one of the infinite tools at its disposal. The universe creates/hosts life - life is made of the same fundemental building blocks as all other matter in the universe. We're just matter with free will. None of our subjective experiences are 'THE REAL MEANING" to anything because you *are* Maynard. We are one.

after careful consideration i think EdwardJamesKeenan has hit the ball on the head

Ok. Just a start here..............The "ego" being referred to in Reflection...I BELIEVE IS THIS:

Main Entry: ego
Pronunciation: 'E-(")gO also 'eg-(")O
Function: noun
2 : the one of the three divisions of the psyche in psychoanalytic theory that serves as the organized conscious mediator between the person and reality especially by functioning both in the perception of and adaptation to reality

AND NOT THIS:

n : an inflated feeling of pride in your superiority to others [syn: egotism, self-importance]

In regards to the second entry, yes, MJK has come off as a bit narcissistic. BUT, the first entry makes much more sense. Im not going to go overboard explaining this because this is Reflection and we are in the Rosetta Stoned section. Just think about "crucify the ego"....

Now, about Rosetta Stoned. I take this song (so far in my experience with the disc) for face value....for the most part. Its a story of a man's struggle with an experience (overwhelmed). And this man is left unsure of anything described throughout the song. Apply that while listening and you have my method of thought as this song is playing.

BUT, to sit here and demand that this song is about ONE thing in particular and that you will figure out what this one thing is....that is just assinine. There are 50 other songs (approx) written by this band that none of us KNOW exactly "what he was thinking about" while writing the lyrics. Sure, I have some pretty decent ideas about what the general theme could be through each song, but who am I to say what is right or wrong, and then put any one of you down for making a "wrong" interpretation.

In reference to the "ego" thing, the ego is what causes you to make these judgements on each song. The way that every day before today has shaped your mind will have an effect on how you decide to decipher anything, not just 4 guys' music.

There is a lot of general ignorance going on in this thread. SOrry to be the one to point it out.

i was just remembering when so they played this song in NYC. When he was singing " ET revealed to me his singular purpose.
He said, "You are the Chosen One,
the One who will deliver the message." he pointed to the crowd. anyone else remember this?

MJK COULD be the ET and we are the Chosen Ones?

Plausible.

I give that interpretation a nod. Tool... Maynard... have a message in general with all their music. I think they're trying to help steer humanity in the right direction by causing thought and ponderance.

That they are the one's with the 'wisdom' (or ET in this case) and we are the ones standing in awe of them and we know this is some momentous wisdom being laid out before us... but then talk about it as we may, we're still here bickering over who's right and who's wrong. We listen to the message all the time... but we continuously seem to forget our pens.

Ya know, there's nothing like a person with altered ego diahrea to turn a thread into some good fun.

And, furthermore, so is Rosetta Stoned. I think it's by far the funniest songs on the album. The Pot makes me smile too but, I sincerely crack up at Rosetta Stoned. That's just me though. If you like to take this song seriously, great. Go for it. Knock yourself out.

[satire mode=on]

The ultimate truth is: this song is really about me. Yep, truth. I nailed it. Sorry.

I had this crazy Towel experience. And, I was given the meaning to it all. The aliens picked me because, after all, I'm a genetically produced Smart Towel with the extra processor and RAM chip embedded in my fibers. Yep, sorry to inform you but I was told I am The One.

I'm the Neo Towel.

Unfortunately, I forgot to write whatever they wanted to convey down on paper. And, oops, I've got shit all over me. Sorry about that. My bad. Next question?

[satire mode=off]

:)

You didn't point anything out... you repeated the same garbage a few others have already said. You have added to the "ignorance" if anything.

and your "ego" definitions... maybe you don't recall what he says directly after "I must crucify the ego.." he says, "BEFORE IT'S FAR TOO LATE." Now YOU ask yourself which definition makes more sense.

By the way, is this an Opinion page?
Do I need to qualify every fucking post I make by saying, "I am not Maynard.. but"

No, and I won't.

It's my opinion. Do I feel my interpretations are what he intended (the REAL message) when he wrote it? You're god damn right. Will I write and support my opinions with conviction and passion. Yes.

You don't agree with my perspective. Fine. Be wrong.

Yes, it's my opinion YOU WOULD BE WRONG for not seeing it my way.

Yes, it's my opinion YOU WOULD BE WRONG for not seeing it my way.

Like I said before, if you're wrong about the intended message, but you're happy and you love the song. Fine. Good. Be wrong. Be happy. Go on down the sidewalk whistling, hands in pocket, kicking the stones along the way. I'm happy for you. Just stay on that side of the road.

When stereotypes become reality, they're no longer stereotypes.

When an opinion...

It can't be explained more clearly and accurately than how he explained.

No wonder he goes by LUCID Design.

seriously, i think 3deviations thinks he is "the One" with his elistist opinion.

You're not allowed to say something like that, remember?

It's taboo... you think this is an opinion page or something?

So it's okay for you to speculate about who I am, what I'm about, or what I'm thinking...

but

I'm not allowed to make any assumptions or give any opinions about Maynard, what he's about or what he's thinking...

okay, thanks for clearing that up for me.

I can't say what I want to, even if I'm not serious.

Things like....
"Fuck yourself,
kill yourself,
you piece of shit."

People tell me what to say,
what to think ,
and what to play.

I say...

"Go fuck yourself, you piece of shit.
Why don't you go kill yourself?"

Just kidding.

This tread has really gone down the shitter. 3deviations you really need to get off maynard's dick like he's the second coming of Jesus.
Do you think his message and beliefs, are something new? no, they're not. A whole lot of people feel the same way and hold the same beliefs. Lots of listeners, or atleast those that really listen, know what his message is. Whether we decide to act upon these beliefs is a different story. But thats not what you're saying. You're saying that maynard saying some shit that's going over our heads which it's not. You saying that we "dont get it" is total crap.Most of us are aware

oh i just thort. "Shit the Bed" is another way of saying "jumped the gun" in UK, possibly elsewhere too

[QUOTE=ThreeDeviations]
You don't agree with my perspective. Fine. Be wrong.

Yes, it's my opinion YOU WOULD BE WRONG for not seeing it my way.

Yes, it's my opinion YOU WOULD BE WRONG for not seeing it my way.
QUOTE]


see its stuff like that that annoys people, right or wrong you're just being an ass. I actaully think that you've got some of your stuff mixed up and my opinion is subtley different to yours, but I THINK that I am right and I THINK that YOU are wrong (but only subtley).

It has gone down the shitter because morons like you keep coming back and posting.. and I keep having to tell you that you're still a moron.

"Get off Maynard's dick like he's the 2nd coming?" I'm not even sure there was an original cuming, you fuckin retard.

"You saying that we "dont get it." That is correct.
"Most of us are aware." That is incorrect.

.

well 3Dev sence u said it yourself that this is an opinion page.. then my opinion is that no one is wrong.. the fact that u are so extreme about u being right is YOUR ego... the fact that you bash everyone elses opinion leads me 2 believe that you are not solid about your ideas and believes... if goin with our thoughts then i could say that i know your wrong that the bible is right... saying it like it is a fact.. u are acting as if u have talked 2 maynard himself about this song and that it is a fact that this song is about one thing... but its not.. noone knows what this song is about other than maynard and the rest of the band if they even know... and if u have hung out and talked 2 maynard himself about this song than please tell me where when and how u did this...

i'll finish this like alot of the others at this site have by saying that i personaly dont know what this song is about but im sure it is deep and has some meanings wether it is about one thing or multi things... but im an artist myself and in alot of my creations they have multi meanings like my tattoo has like 4 diff meanings in it.. some ppl wouldn't understand and some ppl would. so i vote that you take this song the way you want it and you believe it if you believe the way 3Dev feels than thats your thing...

this song is about the 'whole chosen people thing'. period.

its funny how you said alot there but absolutely nothing with substance.

Well, according to 3Dev, the creator determines the ultimate meaning. According to the Church of Virus (which you may or may not be familiar with) "things mean what they cause" - so if Maynard writes something and it causes him to feel a certain way, that's what it means. If I in turn feel something totally different... if it causes me to feel a certain way, then it also means that just as much as what it meant to Maynard.

I think you'd be better off just saying "I think this is what it meant to Maynard," and that you're trying to think the way Maynard does and not, "I know what the song is about," because the song is about many things. If Maynard came out and said "all of you are wrong, it's about windsurfing off the coast of Spain," what would you think then? Maybe you had some deep super-meaning that you were sure was what Maynard was saying and now he went and dashed your ideas against the rocks. Is it suddenly no longer about what you thought it was about? Is it now only about windsurfing in Spain because the creator said so? You're a puppet.

That's what I've done the whole damn time...


pay attention, and worry less about your stupid philosophical theories.

your theories were originally thought up by some human 200 years ago.. and since been passed down and skewed even more along the way.

so don't presume your philosophical nonsese has merit.. especially not on this thread.

my opinion is my own...

I'm not plagiarizing some dead man's thought from 200 years ago...

My opinion is more credible by default than your regurgitated rhetoric about absolutely nothing.

If you're referring to Nietzsche that's not what I'm talking about at all. And if that's what you think then you either don't know anything about Nietzsche or you know nothing about Buddhism (or both).

"I'm not plagiarizing some dead man's thought from 200 years ago... " - No, you aren't. You're just obsessed with some living man's interpretation of a song. In essence, you seek to find Maynard's thoughts so you can make them your own interpretation. But you're never going to succeed with that. What happens if Maynard changes his mind about what he gets out of the song and now he thinks it's about something else. Which one will you idolize as the 'true' meaning then?

The whole point was that everything is subjective, even to the creator. So if all your trying to do is figure out what Maynard meant, then say so. But don't tout Maynard's meaing as though it's somehow more 'the meaning' than what anyone else gets out of it.

"You're just obsessed with some living man's interpretation of a song."

He wrote the song. It's not his "interpretation" of it.


You:
"That 70 mph speed limit sign, sir.. it's actually subjective. It really reads 80 MPH because that's how my mind perceives those numbers. Let me tell you what my professor at the community college told me in my philosophy class.... " I -

Cop:
"Son, shut your mouth and slow the fuck down. Here's your ticket. You say another word and I'm going to be forced to give you a sobriety test and get the dogs out here."

Yeah... okay... it's still subjective. The cop's subjective reaction is to drag your ass to jail for DUI.

And you didn't answer me. If Maynard changed his mind about what the song was about, would the meaning of the song change to you? Or is the song still really about what it was about when he wrote it? What if when he wrote it it meant one thing, and then after he recorded it he got a different meaning out of it... Which one is right?

And ultimately, if you want to deify the creator and assume you've figured out the only *real* meaning... eh... sure, why not... worked for the church. Agree to disagree with you.

\nice one blank effect, i agree with you, and this thread has got a little off point, i dont think anyone has really offered their thorts about what teh song is about for a good few posts.

Fine, we'll agree to disagree.

and fyi, Maynard wouldn't "change his mind what it's about"... so your hypotheticals need to stay in la la land.

I appreciate certain aspects of philosophy and even some of the things you've said... but your "principles" (or whatever you refer to them as) really don't translate or belong on this thread.

Tool is philosophical, but not even close to the extreme scenarios you're talking about...

so frankly and respectfully, your time would be better spent on a different thread or different area entirely.

To me, the song is from two viewpoints. One is the viewpoint of the tripper. The verses and setup sections before the instrumental are about the LSD trip and the actual observations/experiences therein.

The second meaning/part comes at the climax where now Maynard takes on the role of the teacher and not the tripper and is telling us how much he's been trying to teach us and despite all his efforts we still just sit around without our pens. As in, we like the idea of the song Third Eye so we justifiably seek spirituality through drugs but then we don't realize that they're just a catalyst, not the way.

And he's telling us in the climax that if we rely solely on drugs to bring us enlightenment that we're not really going to be enlightened. Sorry, enlightenment can't be found in a pill. We'll only be there until the drug wears off and then oops, I forgot my pen, can't remember what it was all about... guess I have to do it again.

Hi there.

I sort of see Lost Keys/ Rosetta Stoned as a universal tale, a lot of MJK's lyrics on this album seem to be just that. It sort of communicates on a pop level what happens to all of us when we meet god/E.T./etc.

Visions of the divine, in my experience, are much like soap bubbles. The closer to bursting you come, i.e. the closer to death, the more colourful the graphics get, and the less of it you can comunicate back to your peers.

The highest revelation of spiritual truth revealed in the human body may actually be sexual fluids, urine and feces. shit the bed. think about it.

Thought about it... doesn't work for me. Kudos on a truly original (if somewhat disturbing) idea, though.