but love the music to this song?

The lyrics are so tainted with liberal tolerence crap. The whole we are all one/why can't we just get along. I mean I love this album. Musically it's probaly my favorite of their's. But is it just me or is maynard going soft with his thinking?

Opiate, undertow, and Aenema were so very intolerant if you will. Maynard had a message and he was gonna get it said even if he had to shove it down someone's throat. He had an opinion and was intolerant of the rest. Well not completely but it wasn't this pussy "why oh why can't we just all agree and get along" crap.

People disagree because they have different ideas about life, and to ever hope that this "tug of war" will end is basically saying the world needs to be unified under one mode of thought. It's guilty of the same thing christianity and islam are.

The war should never end. People should always disagree and probally always will. Let people believe what they want and let them fight about it. Life is more interesting that way.

Ionno. I had to vent that. It seems to me at least like maynard has lost his warlike attitude and has bought in to the whole idea of tolerence as a moral code.

Started on lateralus really. Loved the album, then reflection came along and ruined it for me. We are not all one mind nor should we want to be >_>

I'd rather live in a world that shifts back and forth between peace and war than a world where everone agrees and there's no conflict. Conflict is interesting. Makes life worth living.

Anyway needed to vent that. Anyone else feel this way or am nuts? >_>

sorry you feel that way man
i hope to live in a world where we CAN all get along and where we don't need to hurt one another

I've never really thought that's what Maynard's saying in the song (and I don't think it's about Iraq either). To me, Maynard's just linking our bellicose nature to that of animals, and the angels are merely a device to show what we must look like to an outsider. I don't think he's saying "Why can't we just get along?" because I don't think he's quite that naive. I think he's just calling us animals.

First of all, I don't think he's getting necessarily soft "repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, concious of his fleeting time here" definition of repugnant-contradictory,distasteful, offensive. Plus he's basically calling humans monkeys (an animal who will throw it's own shit at things when it's angry) and war is ONLY interesting when your watching it from afar, it's very different when your in the middle of it (just watch scenes on the news of people screaming and crying cause they just lost members of their family who they grew up with and their parents who gave them life and their friends who've they've made the best memories of their life with, and worst of all a spouse who was their other half that completed then) WAR is NOT a good thing, not when it takes the life of someone else and their freedom to exist. you're only living vicariously when you think it's interesting cause you haven't truely experienced it."makes life worth living"? not when it takes away your only reason for living. I don't think tool is a pro war band, they probably despise warmongering people who are belligerent who carelessly take away peoples gifts, their gifts of life, of existence and those who squander it. I'm only saying "you" as in general. I'm not meaning to sound like I'm attacking your or your point of view.

The lyrics to this song are actually my favorite MJK lyrics... so simple, yet so effective.

First off, hit me honestly about it. You can call me a beligerent mother fucker. That's what I'm getting at don't be afraid to offend :D

I wasn't trying to talk about Iraq and although I did mean war as in actual war I meant metaphorically as well. Conflict between people. Difference of opinion. I war between values if you will.

The part about war taking away someone's life was interesting, and in the case of Iraq, something that happened to many people for a still unclear reason. War has changed. There was a day when you armies would face each other on a battlefield holding swords or their barefists and kill each other personally. They had to look the man they were killing in the eye and kill him with their bare hands. They found meaning in their life through the glory of the battle. Honor is something that doesn't exist in war today. But that's an entirely different discussion in itself. What I'm trying to say is that war should be fought by warriors who are fighting for the sake of fighting. A civilian location should not be a battlefield and it's a tradegy that so many civilians have to suffer through a modern day war.

That being said, war in the broad sense of the word is something that exists, should exist, and will always exist.

Conflict exists because people have different expiriences in life. Hence they have different views about it. People are and should be proud of how they view the world and what they hold true about it.

During times of struggle and conflict what do people long for? Peace and love. During the time of conflict a value was put on peace and love and they were deemed gooded. Peace and love became valued as something "good" and we all rejoiced in our new knowledge and hope. But to what do we owe this revelation? To the war. To the conflict that gave birth to our longing for peace.

And after years of strife and conflict we developed a taste for blood, a joy in battle. A longing to expirience that feeling of victory.

So finally at long last the war is over and peace has been obtained and we live for a long time in peace. But then what happens? The warrior inside us longs for war once again. And we find a new hope and a new vision. Then a new war arises and we cast peace aside and fight our wars for the sake of fighting. And to what do we owe this newfound revelation? Peace. Peace gave birth to a love a war and war gave birth to a love of peace.

What I'm getting at is this. War/peace, love/hate, happiness/sorrow. They are all dependent on each other. We can only have peace because of war. We can only love because we know what hate is. We can only find happiness in something because we know what sorrow is.

War and peace are both 2 necessary factors in the big circle that is life. Both are contigent on each other and to ever wish for either one to come to an end permantly is just naive.

There is a balance that exists between the two that an eternity of life has made.

Let me use an example here. Most of you arent christians. I know I'm not, but I will use an example from the bible.

Did you ever stop to wonder why eve ate the apple? Why she would throw away a life of ease and joy for the life we all live now? Well I'll tell you. She ate the apple because she didn't know what ease and joy were, because she had never expirienced their opposites. She had to live a life full of uneasiness and full of sorrow to know and appreciate what ease and joy were.

War and peace are two necessary factors in our lives. We are what we are because of BOTH of them not ONE of them. And to be able to look back at your life as a whole and say, "if I could do it all again, everything, all the bad, all the good, I would." THAT is real strength and that is real happiness.

That is why we all post and argue on these boards. Because we like argueing and its good that we do. We like the conflict of opinion and we like the victory of our opinion winning. And hopefully should we be proven wrong, our honesty would cry triumph even in that.

So after that wall of text this is what I'm getting at. The answer to the question posed by the song, "when will this tug of war end?" is never. That tug of war is a necessary thing. happiness/sadness, war/peace are inerevicably intertwined together and to ever wish for one to disapear forever is just plain foolish. We couldnt apreciate peace for ever if war was gone forever.

Now go ahead and prove me right by hitting me with the best responses you got. The warrior in all of you wants to argue about it and you know it :D

Enjoy.

lol, I wouldn't call what I did as warring against you, just conversing, my words weren't meant as an attack or as arsenal. Difference in opinion doesn't mean a struggle or the act of war. to truelly war against you I would have to hunt you and kill you, but I would NEVER wish that. To war is to hate something enough to kill it, and to hate and kill something is evil. I don't believe there will always be evil. Not to get into a religious debate because you used the bible as an example, eve only ate the fruit cause she was decieved by satan(the devil), an angel who desired something that wasn't his. He wanted to be worrishiped and to have god's power because of greed. He lied to her telling her she would not die , and would become like god, knowing good and bad. She gave the fruit to adam who wasn't decieved and by adam eating it sinned because god told them not to eat from that one specific tree. The sentence from god for sinning was death (thus through adam we all inherit sin, which is why we die)God then cast them out of eden where they multiplied, fulfilling one of god's purposes for the earth to be filled with humans. God also purposed for humans to live forever in paradise. So does it feel like your meant to just grow old and to eventually die? I doubt it, cause we weren't purposed to. Just because god hasn't stepped in doesn't mean he won't eventually, because a day to god is like a thousand years to us. A question was raised in the garden of eden by satan, that of god's right to rule and guide mankind. So god is being patient and allowing mankind to try every sort of government to prove that we can't guide and rule over ourself's properly, and I think we have proved that. Just look at the world and how ruined we have made it and how every government has unfortunatly failed and could never fix things. I only wrote that long explination cause of the mis-used example. If your going to use an example I hope you do more research before writing it. I'm sorry for adding all that but it was kinda hard to explain one thing without the rest, it's my reason to believe there will be no war, hate, and death and no more evil. This is just my belief and in no way am I trying to conflict with others and their beliefs. If you have difference in opinion that is your right since we all have the gift of free will. and I wasn't talking about just iraq (haven't been following it anyway) I was meaning any war in general

O lord Christian liberalism..... I dont even know where to start. Well unlike you I am willing to point fingers and name names.

First off, if you couldnt, tell, I was putting my own twist on the creation story. I don't believe in the Bible. I was trying to show you a psychological example of what Im talking about that no one has considered. But that obviously didnt work.

So Ill just slash into the nitty gritty of what you said. You say war is in ever case "evil". Woo that's dynamite. SO how do you know war is evil? "Because god said killing is wrong." MMMMk thats fine. SO tell me what happened in the battle of Jericho? "Ummm at God's command every man, woman, and child was killed because they were heathens." Seems like there's some exceptions to this rule then. So what really makes killing wrong. "I guess whatever God tells me to do I do it"

You can say you hope for a "perfect world" where we all get along without war (that's my fundemental hate of christianity right there. At it's core Christianity is nothing more than disgust at the world). But believe it or not there's some of us that actually love this world and would die over it.

I'm just hoping you realize that the day you try to unify the world under your God people will be up in arms about it. If you really believe something to be the truth you have to be willing to not only die for it, but to kill for it to.

Are you going to stand by idley as a terrorist straps and bomb on his back and runs at a group of children? You have to realize that people actually have convictions and they are willing to die for them. And there will always be people of conviction and moreover they will always be people with different convictions and because of that. There will always be war.

This pseudo hippie, liberal, tolerence, bullshit dream of a peaceful world is injust,weak, and naive.

For you say you want eternal peace would be to deny people of their beliefs, because as long as there is different belief there will be war. And denying someone the right to believe what they want is the real evil.

Not peace and love forever. peace and war forver.

I don't think Maynard wants everyone to have the same opinions on everything so to speak but merely to realize that the differences between people are merely illusory and that we ARE all ONE and the same. Our interests and favorites and ideals all stem from living in an illusion. There is one constant which is that all living things are connected by the Unified Field and are completely unseparated in true reality so we shouldn't be divided in the illusory life. Perhaps, to a buddhist extent, we should be trying to overcome this worlds limitations and separations by pulling out of it not through suicide but through enlightenment.

as a reply to the first post

love the lyrics: i'd have sex with them...
and love the music

just because of the word "monkey," people get flipped out.
what should he have said, anthropoid?

I think not.

I dont really buy into that because I dont believe in an after life but I think I can go along with the sentiments of that statement.

Maynard has mentioned before that he writes from other people's perspectives... Seeing the phrases "liberal tolerance crap," and "pseudo hippie," tossed around, well, first of all, the thought that this is a conservative, but my point is this: did anyone else think that this was the exact theme/attitude/philosophy that was being sung about in Vicarious?

^could you clarify what you meant. What theme do you think vicarious is about?

If he is, in fact, writing from perspective here, he would then be the "hippie" in question, while whomever he's talking to would be chastising him for said views. Those being that, in a sense, the world has a possibility of actually living in peace, and appreciating it as such. Think "Imagine."

Like I said in the "this dualistic reality" topic, I think the only real peace that can be established is if the world can come together as a whole unitied in the purpose of survival. But for that to happen we have to give up that we are right about everything. I for one am not willing to give up my own personal truths. I am however willing to try and understand why people think differently, and try to not hate them for it.

If I myself and the world as whole can accomplish this, a state in which our individuality is maintained yet there is still unity (albeit one full of constant argueing over moral codes, which I would hope for anyway because debating is fun :D) could be reached. Which really in my mind, would be heaven.

That may be the first time in this thread that I agree with everything you said. Ironic, seeing as it seems to go along with the whole "liberal tolerance" idea, but still agreed.

I think what it is, is that to me "liberal tolerence" people seem to not have an opinion on anything. "Everyone is right I dont have an opinion". That angers me because I place value in conviction. I think it's good to have an opinion on something and stand up for what you believe in. Be a creator. Create values for yourself. The hard part is to not hate other people for their different convictions.

For example. I hate Christianity and the reason is because they won't even open up to the idea that things could be different and anyone who disagrees is gonna burn. That's just plain immature. If your a Christian dont come at me saying "this is the way to live because God is God and that's what he says and if you dont do it you will pay". I dont care if God is God and if I'll pay. I will live how I want regardless of consequence. If you want to come at me as a Christian, tell me why the christian way of life is the best way to live. Why the christian moral codes are the best moral codes. Thats what Im interested in. Why what you believe in means so much to you,

The difference between what Im saying and "liberal tolerence" is I still want people to have convictions and different convictions at that. But I want people to let go of the hate for each other and others peoples convictions.

I'm not saying I'm not guilty of this. I am definately guilty of this but Im working on it. And hopefully this is something the world can someday accomplish.

And it light of this discussion, this is what the song means to me and I dont hate it as much anymore. Hate is what is "cutting our love right in two".

...what the hell are you talking about man? You are really confused. Why should you hate anyone for thinking a different way? I mean, who the hell are you? I hate people like that! (ha). No but seriously, its people like you (and GB) holding the rest of civilization back. I know you're a martyr and all, so how about dying so the rest of us with a conscience can progress and move the rest of the world forward?

Not even going to respond to that one. Thankfully for you though, the cigarettes will kill me eventually.

Liberal tolerance has never..I repeat, NEVER...been about everyone having the same opinion on everything. If it was, why would the word tolerance be there in the first place? It's a state of mind that recognizes differences in people, accepts them, maybe tries to change their mind a little with some good debate, and if all else fails, TOLERATE them. Not going to war with them because they're different. What you're describing yourself as doing IS liberal tolerance. The true Christians are ones who accept the liberal tolerance mindset. Jesus was a liberal. I was a Christian for ten years, and was never conservative. The part of Christianity you're referring to is the part that are either blindly following or completely intolerant and closed-minded to anything else.

P.S. You really should stop smoking.

Way back when I went to a reformed Christian Highschool, and let me tell you. There's nothing tolerent about their thinking. Hell and damnation to anyone that questions.

But I guess I'm a liberal after all.

And I apologize for insulting it so. I believe it was just a case of misunderstood terminology on my part.

And I enjoy smoking too much =/ It's like breathing in of the earth. You can have the "Golden years" anyway :P

You don't believe in an afterlife in what sense? There could merely be the idea that the "afterlife" is your individual spirit energy becoming one with the whole and not necessarily a "Heaven" full of bliss and a humanoid "life" in the sky...know what I mean?

I'm not sure I really think that spirit/soul is something that has it's own entity outside of your body. I think we are our bodies. This body is the physical image of my soul. My consciousness is a product or a part of this body and the expiriences it has been through. I think when my body dies, I will die along with it. But someday the events that gave birth to who I was will happen again and bear me again. I want to return to mother earth who bore me until one day she creates me again.

I think eternity repeats itself. And that god knows how many jillions of years from now, the events that led me and the life that I lived, will happen again.

I mean I understand you probaly wont agree with that. Most people like to think they will live in a non bodily form at some point. But im in love with the flesh and the earth. Have come to love the body if you will. If it's a choice between a fleshly existence or a existence void of the flesh, Id go with the flesh. But again I dont think less of you for wanting to live in something beyond the "bodily". Im just happy with what I got here.

Hell and damnation? It's christian SCHOOL. TRUE christians are tolerant, not the ones shoving their beliefs down people's throats by preaching until it's the only thing they know.

And, on a bit of a subtopic, if one is settled for the life they're living, not looking to any God/ess/s whatsoever, nor looking to any afterlife, would not one want to keep the life as long as possible?

I'll live how I want to live until my body gives way. Life is eternal. I'll find myself back here one day. Live as hard as you can until your body gives way.


But after thinking about this all day at work I feel I need to address something.

All you are saying here (I say you cause I'm still not sure how I feel about this) is that you have found a truth, a goal for the world that you all agree on. And you are positing this goal you have made as "the truth". "We are all one" is the truth you have made.

Im not saying your goal is wrong, but I want you all to understand that your doing the same thing as Islam or any belief that has ever been attempted on a global scale.

You have giving a meaning to the earth. To unite mankind in a common goal. That is all any belief has ever tried to do. That is all terrorists in the middle east are trying to do to.

What is getting me a little angry at this though, is that you are accusing the people that do not agree with this common goal of "dividing us right in two" when you are doing the exact same thing to them. Everyone wants the world made in the image they want. And the image you want is unity and everyone that doesnt want that is (as that one eloquent poster said about me) "holding the the rest of us conscous beings back".

What you have to realize is to people that want something else other than your unity, you are the ones holding back and as in turns out you are guilty of fighting in this "war of ideals" you accuse the world of.

Just understand that this isnt some revelutionary breakthrough. You have made a goal, a highest hope for life, and I can respect that. But understand that you are waging a war against other peoples ideals. You are just as guilty as everyone else for "cutting it all right in two". But what I would teach you is that is fine and good. Wage your war for your highest hope.

Liberal tolerence is not an idea composed of mulitple "faiths" agreeing on something. Liberal tolerence is a worldview. A belief. Something you hold true above all else: Tolerating peoples views.

I just want you all to realize that tolerence is not the final layer of truth. Tolerence is an opinion like everyone else. A faith, nothing more.

Bring on the flaming.

Tolerance is opinion? I see it as a perspective; take that as a belief, if you must... I'm not sure how you are viewing this as an opinion or fact, I suppose. Tolerance is most certainly not truth, as you revealed with the christian school comment. I do, however, see tolerance as a good view on life, in general. I do, actually, believe that we are all one physically, if not spiritually, but that's a different/irrelevant point. I'm not, however, trying to push that mindset onto the world. Simply, is it too much to ask that everyone not try to kill each other simply for having different points of view?

It's refreshing.

Thats all great and all. It just tells me you havent had any REAL problems in life.
Try pain. then you'll change your mind.
a little head ache aint what I'm talking about either.

Its really easy to have that Vicarious attitude, when your far from the action.
And it isnt you that get your mom blown up, or tinitus from grenade explosions etc.

I would just like to quote the Book of the Law... "As brothers fight ye!"

...and I think that the song is not about total cessation of conflict, but about people resorting to primitive destruction for the sake of non-problems like greed and egoism. You can have conflict in bunches of ways that don't involve physical elimination of your opponent for the sake of fulfilling the needs that you -- the higher "You" -- don't have. If people didn't spend so many resources on wars and didn't overpopulate the planet (once again, the lowly egoistic DNA-consciousness that prevents people from thinking on higher levels), they would have more than enough resources for coexistence. And that doesn't mean the end of conflict, just the use of more deep and fulfilling forms for the sake of more deep and fulfilling needs. Compare playing chess with someone and starting a war for the sake of stealing oil from another country!

I'm not going to write out my story to defend myself on this point, but it's always nice when people assume that anyone who has been through tragedy couldnt have made light of it.

The OP's believability factor is at an all time 0. He seems more concerned with getting a rise out of people than discussing points. I shall indulge.....
When asked about the "old, angry Maynard" that people miss, he replied that the point of making such things was to get it out of his system and move on. Tool's music is very theraputic. The old albums will still be there forever. They (the band) are in different places now. Think about what clothes you wore in 1993, and how your hair was styled, and the music you listened to. Probably very different than you now. And more different than you 20 yrs. in the future. This album's here at the right time for a lot of people.

well said

Are people really that stupid. THIS is why they don't release the lyrics. You're the one giving them the meaning you choose to.

Both excellent posts.

As mentioned before, these lyrics are much more blatant than some of Maynard's lyrics in the past. Zarathustra isn't necessarily being stupid, he's simply reacting to a certain mindset (that he apparently thinks is "weak," for lack of better term). His way of interpreting it seems to be something I radically disagree with (that is, until I explained my view of it, and he slightly acquiesced to it, hehe). That doesn't make him stupid, but it possibly makes him more "pro-war," figuratively speaking, than I am.

You arent looking deep enough into the song. Dont judge a book by its cover; dont judge this song by what you think of as the obvious interpretation of its' lyrics.

AMEN to that. If Tool songs have taught us anything, it's that there's probably another meaning besides the obvious one.

well for some1 who named himself after zarathustra aka zoroaster, someone who preached tolerance, and the struggle of man to sustain, and to do this through good thoughts and practices. you seem do do neither. you may be one of the most self-centered ignorant people ive ever seen. you think man should continue to war against, and kill each other, because u think its entertaining. you must not have any freaking clue about zoroaster's philosophy, and thus im sure he is "rolling over in his grave" at your use of his name. zoroaster also preached that man had free will....this negates ur idea, "I think eternity repeats itself. And that god knows how many jillions of years from now, the events that led me and the life that I lived, will happen again." because if man has free will, god cannot possibly know the outcome, thus god is neither omnipitent or infalable, thus there is no god. in an earlier post, someone said its people like you holding back humanity. and they were right. people like you, and our ignoramus of a president that see war as a tool, instead of what it should be seen as, a disgrace.

To the OP/thread topic, the lyrics are incredibly cheesy, the music is phenomenal, and the VOCALS are very appropriate/fitting. Just listen to the notes Maynard is singing rather than the words he's using.

Also, if you take the song at face value, it's presenting a simple concept with even simpler lyrics. Not trying to be pretentious when I call it "simple", it's just that the general "we are one" philosophy seems so obvious and makes so much sense to me (and it's been brought up over and over and over again, not just by Tool).