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Old 09-08-2006, 03:46 PM   #41
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Re: Tool and the Occult

Okay. Last post on this thread. I kinda regret starting it.

I guess the purpose of the original post was to kinda feel out whether or not the whole Occult/Mystic thing was just another thing Tool was doing to screw with people, like studying "Lachrymology". I'd ask them if I could. I doubt they'd give a straight answer. But in poking around this and other Tool websites, it sure seems a lot of people who DO take these things very seriously seem to congregate around this band.

So whether they are doing it as a joke or not, Tool's websites are a haven for a lot of atheist/agnostic/Occultist kinda people. Proof of that all over this thread alone.

It's a silly thing to debate. I was simply curious. To be completely honest, I was trying to decide (for myself) if listening to music with that kind of influence was something a person with my beliefs should or should not do. It's hard to really commit to what you believe in, especially when it means giving up something else you really like. Regardless of what your personal beliefs may be, it can hard to stick to them. I mean, a hardcore atheist may not care a thing about "Christian rock" (and neither do I for that matter), but he may dig the sound of a particular christian band. He can decide if he wants to listen or not.

That's all I'm trying to do.

On another note, if anyone is offended by my silly nickname, let me explain. It's the only one I've used since the mid-90s when I played Warcraft2 online a lot. I was part of a team called the death angels and we chose sinister sounding names. In one of life's little ironies, it actually refers to Satan. Go figure. It is from Isaiah 40 something. I never thought twice how it may sound pious in the context of this kind of discussion. I think it fits rather well with the rest of the names in this thread. Again, all apologies.

peace out.
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Old 09-09-2006, 03:52 AM   #42
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Re: Tool and the Occult

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShiningOne View Post

So throw Christianity out the door for a moment. Can anyone say that the Occult (and I don't mean Devil worship) really offers realistic solutions to man's problems? Aleister Crowley was, and I didn't know the guy--do your own research--seemingly a dirtbag of a man. He was racist, chauvinist, a drug addict and sexual deviant. I've read that his last words were something along the lines of "I'm an unhappy man."

So this opens a can of worms as to the responsibilty of an artist. I just can't see how exposing younger or more vulnerable, impressionable fans to this kind of influence can make the world a better place. And I'm not talking about blaming Ozzy for Suicide Solution. Tool seems to genuinely want to make the world a different place. I want to say *better* place, but if this is the direction they want to point their fans, I'm not so sure.

Again--everyone can make their own decision. That's a wonderful thing. But a child cannot always make a mature decision. Bottom line. I mean seriously, if Danny Carey wants to find the entrance to "Hell," whatever that may be, what does he think he's gonna do? Send a postcard? Take a motorized tour? If he channels energies and draws upon mystic forces and summons a "daemon," whatever that is, are there no consequences? Isn't he tapping into a darker, malevolent force? I don't see qualities like peace and tolerance resulting from such an act. So if they incorporate this stuff into their music, what good can come from listening to it?

I don't know the answers to these questions. I don't think there are solutions, at least not easy ones. But I do think Tool itself is one of the authorities that should be "questioned". They'd probably agree. And if anyone thinks that no one puts any real value into this music, you need look no farther than some of topics and posts on this website to see just how much real religious value people infuse into this band's music. Maybe you and I don't, but click around.


where do you get your info from? Are you serious with this shit? First off suicide solution was an anti suicide song. Who fucking cares if crowley said he was unhappy (lots of people are unhappy). How was crowley a dirtbag? Because he did drugs, studied magick, or because of his sexual encounters? Mysticism is a great thing. Its what christianity is missing. And if you are so worried about childrens vulnerable minds then shouldn't you be preaching (no pun in ten did) the same shit to the churchs and any other forms of authority?

Also about making the world a better place. Fundamentalist Christians are huge part of fucking it up. Nuclear armament and trying to stop technological advances in science (that would help people) being the big two.

Lastly the musicians you mentioned are a big part in my life. Black Sabbath, Led Zepellin, Tool (and others not mentioned) were all at one time viewed as being satan worshipping music. But the truth is they have helped me and millions of others through rough times and displayed their wisdom(heart).


Zep
"And if you feel that you can't go on. And your will's sinkin' low
Just believe and you can't go wrong.
In the light you will find the road. You will find the road "

Sabbath
"So believe what I tell you;
It's the only way you'll find in the end
Just believe in yourself you know you really shouldn't have to pretend
Don't let those empty people try and interfere with your mind
Just live your life and leave them all behind"

Tool
"So crucify the ego before it's far too late to leave behind this place, so negative and blind and cynical
And you will come to find that we are all one mind, capable of all that's imagined and all conceivable "
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Old 09-09-2006, 09:52 AM   #43
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Re: Tool and the Occult

[QUOTE=paluka;1384877]where do you get your info from? Are you serious with this shit? First off suicide solution was an anti suicide song. Who fucking cares if crowley said he was unhappy (lots of people are unhappy). How was crowley a dirtbag? Because he did drugs, studied magick, or because of his sexual encounters? Mysticism is a great thing. Its what christianity is missing. And if you are so worried about childrens vulnerable minds then shouldn't you be preaching (no pun in ten did) the same shit to the churchs and any other forms of authority?

Also about making the world a better place. Fundamentalist Christians are huge part of fucking it up. Nuclear armament and trying to stop technological advances in science (that would help people) being the big two.

Lastly the musicians you mentioned are a big part in my life. Black Sabbath, Led Zepellin, Tool (and others not mentioned) were all at one time viewed as being satan worshipping music. But the truth is they have helped me and millions of others through rough times and displayed their wisdom(heart).[/QUOTE

Well, that's a nice little post you got there. Um, to start, let me repeat everything I said in the post you quoted, but evidently didn't read.

First: I didn't know Crowley. *Do your own research* Evidently, he was a *racist*, *chauvinist*, druggie and perv. (pick your poison)

Second: I said this situation was NOT like Ozzy's. Ozzy was criticized for that song. Old news. No one is criticizng Tool, 'cept maybe me. And I'm only suggesting that they are not above being questioned, too.(personally, I don't think Ozzy was to blame. Like saying Pat Benatar's "hell is for children" was evil. Ha!)

I can't believe I have to repeat this one, but, I VERY SPECIFICALLY said that the Occult was not Devil worship. No need to bring that up.

I also never said anything to advocate Fundamentalist anythingism. Not once. Didn't advocate anything. Just stated at the outset where I stood so no one could say I was trying to be subversive.

Lastly, I never said anything BAD about Sabbath or Zeppelin, or even Tool. Everything and everyone are open to criticism. I really like these bands too. Just stated facts as I found them. Dig for yourself. I'm not making things up.

Touche about not letting vulnerable minds be exposed to Churches and other authorities. Lots of danger in this world. In this post, I was solely referring to one thing.

And I didn't have to cuss you out to make a point. Wow.
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Old 09-09-2006, 01:09 PM   #44
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Re: Tool and the Occult

Shining One, ignorant fool:
Isaiah 14 uses figurative language referring to Babylon and the immanent fall of the nation. Lucifer is latin for light bearer which was a corruption of the greek, lux ferre, which in turn was a translation of the hebrew HELEL. The Lucifer myth was concocted by your religion. Go do some proper exegesis if you wish to know what you believe and why.
Second. What would jesus do? Can you see jesus in the tool crowd head banging to aenima or Rosetta stoned? I'm sorry friend, judgement has been cast upon ye and Adonai shall smite thee for thy ignorant wanderings! But that is because doG loves you and wants you to stay safe, sound and stupid. If you try to disobey Satan/your God, he will throw you in fire and burn for eternity, but this is ONLY because he LOVES you so much that he will hold a FUCKING GUN to your HEAD until you suck his dick in obediance...

On the topic of To Mega Therion aka Aleister Crowley...don't judge a man till you've walked a mile in his shoes; reading a wikipedia entry just won't cut it...I mean unless you've reached the point where you've studied crowley and realized "wow, there is sooo much i DONT KNOW!" you have no legitimate right to open your mouth.

and remember-
"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26
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Old 09-09-2006, 03:07 PM   #45
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Re: Tool and the Occult

[QUOTE=ShiningOne;1385289]
Quote:
Originally Posted by paluka View Post
where do you get your info from? Are you serious with this shit? First off suicide solution was an anti suicide song. Who fucking cares if crowley said he was unhappy (lots of people are unhappy). How was crowley a dirtbag? Because he did drugs, studied magick, or because of his sexual encounters? Mysticism is a great thing. Its what christianity is missing. And if you are so worried about childrens vulnerable minds then shouldn't you be preaching (no pun in ten did) the same shit to the churchs and any other forms of authority?

Also about making the world a better place. Fundamentalist Christians are huge part of fucking it up. Nuclear armament and trying to stop technological advances in science (that would help people) being the big two.

Lastly the musicians you mentioned are a big part in my life. Black Sabbath, Led Zepellin, Tool (and others not mentioned) were all at one time viewed as being satan worshipping music. But the truth is they have helped me and millions of others through rough times and displayed their wisdom(heart).[/QUOTE

Well, that's a nice little post you got there. Um, to start, let me repeat everything I said in the post you quoted, but evidently didn't read.

First: I didn't know Crowley. *Do your own research* Evidently, he was a *racist*, *chauvinist*, druggie and perv. (pick your poison)

Second: I said this situation was NOT like Ozzy's. Ozzy was criticized for that song. Old news. No one is criticizng Tool, 'cept maybe me. And I'm only suggesting that they are not above being questioned, too.(personally, I don't think Ozzy was to blame. Like saying Pat Benatar's "hell is for children" was evil. Ha!)

I can't believe I have to repeat this one, but, I VERY SPECIFICALLY said that the Occult was not Devil worship. No need to bring that up.

I also never said anything to advocate Fundamentalist anythingism. Not once. Didn't advocate anything. Just stated at the outset where I stood so no one could say I was trying to be subversive.

Lastly, I never said anything BAD about Sabbath or Zeppelin, or even Tool. Everything and everyone are open to criticism. I really like these bands too. Just stated facts as I found them. Dig for yourself. I'm not making things up.

Touche about not letting vulnerable minds be exposed to Churches and other authorities. Lots of danger in this world. In this post, I was solely referring to one thing.

And I didn't have to cuss you out to make a point. Wow.
so basically you are making assumptions. If you don't know something (Crowley) why even use it? Whats the fucking point? I know you didn't mention fundamentalists but why not? If you are out attacking why not start at the top (work your way down to the less significant)? I also don't understand your problem with Occult or better yet what you were getting at with it. You said that it doesn't offer realistic solutions? Why would you say that? Have you studied any occult science? Maybe you should read into some of this to have a better understanding, because although you said you dont relate the occult with devil worship you still tend to look at it as a vice.
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Old 09-10-2006, 09:36 PM   #46
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Re: Tool and the Occult

Basically you are asking if we find Tool ethically irresponsible or artistically hypocritical?

I think Pete pretty much got the gist of it, I don't think Tool even intended to be taken so seriously, even I have been guilty of trying to read too much into their 'mysticism', whatever you'd like to call it.

I think Tool rails against the dogma of organized religion and anything outside of that umbrella is more or less embraced, either with some guidance or with a wink and a nod, in some fashion. So if they are being serious or completely joking, I think the intention is to question the type of dogma that you have bought into. I don't think it's any surprise that you'd have a disconnect on what their artistic/spiritual vision is.

Whatever that is, sacred geometry. Crowley etc. It's all about breaking the chains of the corporation of religion itself, it's about nearly anything else. They aren't saying "this is the right religion" they are saying "ditch religion".

So in that respect, I'd say I don't see hypocrisy in their spirituality, whatever that is.

As far as some kind of moralistic ethic to be responsible for how people choose to 'take' your art, I'd have to say if you believe in the priniciple of freedom of speech, you have to dismiss this notion. If you think there is a moral dilemma here, it's probably brought about by your dogma, which is what Tool rebels against anyway. If it's not your dogma, and it's some universal compass of 'good' that we are all born with, then I'd say simply that what each person decides to do with the message will bring about back to them good or bad, depending on how they take the art and use is as a Tool (bad pun?).

I believe in absolute freedom of speech but also I think it's wise to be responsible enough not to advocate 'certain' things. That's my choice. If I am a Christian forst and foremost, how can I move beyond anything that defies my own dogma, blatantly??

I'd answer the second half of your question, as I see them, by saying I don't think there should be a universal code of ethics in art and I doubt you would either. So if it's all personal and all subjective, then we'd all have to make up our own minds. If I were a Christian I wouldn't be reading things too literally with Tool or else I might find myself with quite a conflict of interest. On the other hand, if you don't take it that seriously, then there should be no dilemma at all. That is unless it's actually the 'listening' aspect that is the problem. As long as you aren't buying into Tool's version of the truth, whatever it is, you do have your own, right? Then what would be the problem?
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Old 09-11-2006, 07:02 PM   #47
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Re: Tool and the Occult

Christianity itself is just as blasphemous as any occult teaching or believe.

It's comparing 100% unprovable theory (aka FICTION) to 100% unprovable theories.



Other than that, I agree with everything you said.
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Old 09-12-2006, 04:40 PM   #48
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Re: Tool and the Occult

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laugh View Post
Shining One, ignorant fool:
Isaiah 14 uses figurative language referring to Babylon and the immanent fall of the nation. Lucifer is latin for light bearer which was a corruption of the greek, lux ferre, which in turn was a translation of the hebrew HELEL. The Lucifer myth was concocted by your religion. Go do some proper exegesis if you wish to know what you believe and why.
Laugh, this part is somewhat true. Actually, the scripture (Isaiah 14:12) refers to King Nebuchadnezzar (not Satan or Lucifer--see verses 16-19), before he fell from power, only to be reinstated to the throne of Babylon seven years later. Most people read the figurative language and conclude that it's Satan being discussed. I didn't think anyone would care enough to correct me. Also, it's "imminent." Immanent, being an actual word, has a totally irrelevant meaning. You don't really know what religion I am, so to state that "it" concocted something is quite foolhardy.

So exactly why do you feel the need to be so nasty? When someone is all criticism and no substance, his words carry no weight. No one yet has really taken a stand on what they believe in this thread. Only on what they hate/disagree with/don't quite understand.

You'll probably want to say something like, "It doesn't matter what religion you are, all christians are the same, blah blah blah." And/or "I'm not some kind of robot whose beliefs have to be structured for me, I believe lots of things, I don't need to commit to any one thing."

So now that I've taken that away from you, can you add anything meaningful to the thread?
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Old 09-12-2006, 11:49 PM   #49
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Re: Tool and the Occult

ShiningOne, you should send an e-mail to Danny. Check out dannycarey.org. He could help you out with your question. Occult means hidden, secret. There was a time when Christianity was occult, because others didn't approve. Think about the implications of that. I am too tired to spell it out. Oh and the other thing is Danny doesn't take it all too seriously. He and Blair joke about these things all the time. You don't need to take it so seriously either. If some kid thinks they need to swear at God, so be it - they will grow up. But I would rather see someone being given the openness of thoughtless rejection over the closed act of blind acceptance. That is to say: a kid is in a lot more trouble at a church singing in tongues than they are at rock concert chanting "Fuck God!"

You might disagree, but in the long run, things will often be better for the kid at the rock gig. This kid has the chance to grow up and decide for themselves. Whereas the kid at church becomes indoctrinated into a condition they will have great difficulty making sane decisions from.

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Old 09-13-2006, 04:08 AM   #50
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Re: Tool and the Occult

I love the fact that Christianity is the MALE form of Paganism. More or less. Its almost as if xtianity was a response to Paganism. What a horrible fucking mentality that xtians have.

Fact of the matter is this:

The common modern interpretation of the bible is that anyone other than a xtian should be confronted with the intention to convert, and if they choose not to, they are doomed. Contradiction?

TOOL blatantly mocks xtianity. BUT, it has been stated that they have respect for JC. Great man, but his followers went WAY too far.

Based on what the bible teaches, I dont understand how someone that is xtian would listen to TOOL.

Sabbath was way more xtian than people realise. Do your research before quoting random bullshit.
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Old 09-13-2006, 02:09 PM   #51
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Re: Tool and the Occult

Quote:
Originally Posted by LetGoLetgoLetGo View Post
Based on what the bible teaches, I dont understand how someone that is xtian would listen to TOOL.

Sabbath was way more xtian than people realise. Do your research before quoting random bullshit.

Hey! That is exactly what this is all about! I already said that I was trying to decide whether or not I had any business listening anymore. Kind of asking around to see if anyone had any ideas as to whether or not Tool took all this occult stuff seriously or not, and even if not, whether it was still a wise thing to joke about.
Not sure what I *quoted* about Sabbath, but this IS part of my research. (What I mentioned about Sabbath came right from the band, though. An interview on TV the other week about Sabbath and Zeppelin and their influence on heavy metal).

Also, you mentioned the common modern interpretation of the Bible. What is it that you claim to know? What exactly is the uncommon or archaic interpretation of the Bible? I am VERY eager to hear this answer, since I've been chastised about quoting random things...

Last edited by ShiningOne; 09-13-2006 at 02:15 PM.. Reason: added thought...
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Old 09-13-2006, 02:55 PM   #52
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Re: Tool and the Occult

Regardless of whether or not Tool embraces the occult or if they were just using it as an example of a lesser dogmatic evil isnít even whatís important at this point. The fact is that they were able to push the boundaries of what the common audience member conceived as irrational and managed to rouse a sense of curiosity , in all respects of the word. The curiosity to question authority , to question supposed "foundations" , to be open and accepting rather then being ignorant and narrow minded . That , I believe is the true purpose of their usage of the occult , and if perhaps for no other purpose it may simply be to weed out the easily bamboozled who will bite at anything anyone with any form of authority may toss unto them.
The point is people in general should be confident and open enough to decide by their own convictions what their belief is to be .
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Old 09-14-2006, 06:11 AM   #53
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Re: Tool and the Occult

Do us all a favor and stop listening to tool. (You donít get it.) Then get a hold of various books that are about spiritual theories and history and read, read, and read. When you can perceive the parallels and common goals of the many spiritual concepts, I do believe youíll begin to understand toolís music.

One of toolís messages is to question authority; and they have found that to question authority without doing some real research is just as terrible as completely believing in a dogma. This is why presently tool has progressed away from the erratic hostility (flood style, drown it all and of course with good intention) of their earlier days (first three albums), being that this type of hostility tends to lead to misunderstanding, premature judgment of the innocent (Marie) and irrational actions. Tool came to the realization that they were as full of shit and naÔve about the situation as the rest of us. Therefore, because of this they have progressed towards stressing to the listeners the importance of patients, listening, research, (Lateralus) and the refinement and focusing of hostility (sniper style, I got you in my crosshairs and you had better have a good explanation for your actions) (10,000 Days).
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Old 02-23-2014, 05:04 PM   #54
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Re: Tool and the Occult

It's clear through listening to TOOL discography of the profound spiritual transformation undergone. And it is absolutely beautiful to share in that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShiningOne View Post
Okay. Last post on this thread. I kinda regret starting it.

I guess the purpose of the original post was to kinda feel out whether or not the whole Occult/Mystic thing was just another thing Tool was doing to screw with people, like studying "Lachrymology". I'd ask them if I could. I doubt they'd give a straight answer. But in poking around this and other Tool websites, it sure seems a lot of people who DO take these things very seriously seem to congregate around this band.

So whether they are doing it as a joke or not, Tool's websites are a haven for a lot of atheist/agnostic/Occultist kinda people. Proof of that all over this thread alone.

It's a silly thing to debate. I was simply curious. To be completely honest, I was trying to decide (for myself) if listening to music with that kind of influence was something a person with my beliefs should or should not do. It's hard to really commit to what you believe in, especially when it means giving up something else you really like. Regardless of what your personal beliefs may be, it can hard to stick to them. I mean, a hardcore atheist may not care a thing about "Christian rock" (and neither do I for that matter), but he may dig the sound of a particular christian band. He can decide if he wants to listen or not.

That's all I'm trying to do.

On another note, if anyone is offended by my silly nickname, let me explain. It's the only one I've used since the mid-90s when I played Warcraft2 online a lot. I was part of a team called the death angels and we chose sinister sounding names. In one of life's little ironies, it actually refers to Satan. Go figure. It is from Isaiah 40 something. I never thought twice how it may sound pious in the context of this kind of discussion. I think it fits rather well with the rest of the names in this thread. Again, all apologies.

peace out.
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Old 05-09-2014, 10:25 AM   #55
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Re: Tool and the Occult

holy shit, this thread.. i only got halfway through the first page before i couldnt read anymore.. though i have to say i agree with OP for the most part. when i read about the goth girl saying "Fuck God, Fuck god!!" i couldnt help but think 'someone hates themself'.. im not christian, but i respect it for its moral guidance.. i dont respect the leaders, but the message. the bible, to me, is just another book with a great amount of moral fiber..

that being said, i got here by searching "Kansas" (where im from). and the gateway to hell you were talking about is GREATLY overrated.. i live literally 15 minutes from it (Stull, Kansas - the graveyard) and have visited it like 3 times in the past 6 months out of boredom.. the building that used to stand there (where legend says the real "gateway" is) has been knocked down. its still neat to visit though. i gotta take pictures next time i go

Quote:
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what a typical Christian just bash on everything you disagree with fuckin' homophobic racist asshole. Go vent in some stupid ass christian blog with the rest of your sheep. I think for the most part tool fans understand that they're artist not the new fuckin' jesus. so go worship a book.
i saw this and thought it was hilarious. what a hypocritical post. intolerance towards his opinion simply because hes christian.

Last edited by RussianRoot; 05-09-2014 at 10:31 AM..
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Old 05-10-2014, 07:15 AM   #56
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Re: Tool and the Occult

http://www.angelfire.com/psy/psycho_trip/
OP- please read this especially the last line " Beliefs allow the mind to stop functioning. A non-functioning mind is clinically dead. " ;)
love and peace!

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Macaca fascicularis^ :D

Last edited by dancingflame; 05-10-2014 at 07:19 AM..
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Old 05-10-2014, 07:26 AM   #57
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Re: Tool and the Occult

Quote:
Originally Posted by dancingflame View Post
http://www.angelfire.com/psy/psycho_trip/
OP- please read this especially the last line " Beliefs allow the mind to stop functioning. A non-functioning mind is clinically dead. " ;)
love and peace!
thats the sleeve from aenima. and aenima is about some dark shit maynard went through. in lateralus hes more spiritual. he even has a line that says "But I'm still right here. Giving blood, keeping faith. And I'm still right here." - faith and belief are the same thing, arent they? my point is, people change. even the greats change. hes not religious in any way, but ive heard him say in some recordings of live concerts that "jesus was a great guy"

heres a link to that video i described: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoaU2xK8e4o
heres a link to a similar video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHSo9fpK5sg

Last edited by RussianRoot; 05-10-2014 at 07:29 AM..
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Old 06-12-2014, 08:10 AM   #58
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Re: Tool and the Occult

the book i am reading at the moment is called "harmonies of heaven and earth" by joscely godwin...some contents (chapters): "the great work", "the music of the spheres" etc.

i dunno why i write it in this thread...it has something to do with blairs latest newsletter and the "process" :)
imo this album takes so "long" because it has something to do with the "great work", with musical alchemy...imo the spritual and the musical realms are pretty much interchangeable and having listened to aenima and lateralus while being "under the influence" i am almost certain that this music, the work of four individuals composing music under the name "tool", draws inspiration from the "other world"...to be more precise (but still not having any clue) it has to do with planetary constellations, with stars, cycles, rhythms etc...and if you make a mistake you have to start anew (remember the newsletter with the burnt down loft?)...it takes time...somewhere i read that the "big" song they are writing is much like a trilogy (in the book in another chapter they write about a characerization of the universe by the triple fatality of change, competition and impermanence) i guess "competition" is kind of what we had in the last few months and years (the whole wrestling thing)...of course i am a noob in terms of occultism and music and probably it is an merciless overinterpretation but i just wanted to share some thoughts...it could take another 8 years...they don`t really care (at least i hope so ;)) peace!

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Old 06-12-2014, 04:29 PM   #59
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Re: Tool and the Occult

my last post is probably the stupidest of all posts :D
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Old 08-21-2019, 08:18 PM   #60
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Re: Tool and the Occult

Anyone know which lineage of the occult Blair subscribes to?
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Old 08-21-2019, 08:36 PM   #61
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Re: Tool and the Occult

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Originally Posted by ShiningOne View Post
I mean seriously, if Danny Carey wants to find the entrance to "Hell," whatever that may be, what does he think he's gonna do? Send a postcard? Take a motorized tour? If he channels energies and draws upon mystic forces and summons a "daemon," whatever that is, are there no consequences? Isn't he tapping into a darker, malevolent force? I don't see qualities like peace and tolerance resulting from such an act. So if they incorporate this stuff into their music, what good can come from listening to it?

I don't know the answers to these questions. I don't think there are solutions, at least not easy ones. But I do think Tool itself is one of the authorities that should be "questioned". They'd probably agree. And if anyone thinks that no one puts any real value into this music, you need look no farther than some of topics and posts on this website to see just how much real religious value people infuse into this band's music. Maybe you and I don't, but click around.

Well i don't claim to speak for anyone at tool, but lets take "part of me" for an example.
The 72826 version has a prominent "demonic" voice in the background (its in the opiate version as well just not as noticeable) Some of the lyrics:

"You don't speak, You don't judge, You can't leave, you Can't hurt me, Just here for, Me to use"

This puts me in the mind of something known as the "Abramelin operation" part of which involves:

"the magician must evoke the 12 Kings and Dukes of Hell (Lucifer, Satan, Leviathan, Belial, etc.) and bind them. Thereby, the magician gains command of them in his own mental universe and removes their negative influence from his life."

"Because the work involves evocation of demons, the Abramelin operation has been compared to Goetic magic, especially by European scholars. However, the text's primary focus is upon the invocation of the guardian angel, and modern works on the subject tend to focus upon this aspect as well."

I think its a lot less about summoning hellfire & a lot more about acknowledging and doing something about the negativity in the world and accepting & controlling negative impulses, similar to how Christians struggle with temptation and sin.
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Old 08-21-2019, 10:44 PM   #62
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Re: Tool and the Occult

I only have the faintest idea but I always got like a Crowley/Thelema vibe from his strange rantings
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Old 08-21-2019, 11:16 PM   #63
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Re: Tool and the Occult

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I only have the faintest idea but I always got like a Crowley/Thelema vibe from his strange rantings
That's interesting you should say that, since the guy I was stalking when he was looking at this thread also looked at a thread about Crowley. It was about how everyone thinks Crowley wrote about killing babies, when really it was a metaphor about not climaxing when you self-pleasure. I wonder if Blair climaxes when he self-pleasures.
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Old 08-22-2019, 04:57 PM   #64
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Re: Tool and the Occult

I wonder if Blair knows I climax when I pleasure myself while reading cryptic updates from 2003
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Old 08-23-2019, 10:20 PM   #65
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Re: Tool and the Occult

IMO the occult themes of the band are serious and not just a gimmick, but I'd have no way of ever knowing for sure. I'd think the different members of the band might have different specific beliefs. I'm just about to finish A Perfect Union of Contrary Things (MJK Bio audiobook) and he attended one of Drunvalo Melchezidek's workshops on sacred geometry and meditation and stuff in the past, although he says he didn't believe in everything Drunvalo did but took some fundamentals. At the same time Maynard may not even believe in spirits or angels or ANYTHING but maybe just something more grand and mysterious, source (but conscious) maybe... who knows.

I love Danny Carey's aesthetic with his gnarly occult themed shirts and stuff, I feel super drawn to a lot of the same works he seems to flash around like Osman Spare, Kenneth Grant, and Andrew Chumbley.
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Old 08-24-2019, 04:03 PM   #66
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Re: Tool and the Occult

I always get the sense that Maynard believes that intention is the important part. "You don't have to necessarily believe in any of the tools to use them" sort of thing
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Old 09-09-2019, 07:21 PM   #67
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Re: Tool and the Occult

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Originally Posted by leefnaspleaf View Post
Anyone know which lineage of the occult Blair subscribes to?
from his book,IJYNX (recommended. occult-curious TOOL fans should get it
aren't many short-cuts for understanding where TOOL's coming from... js):

Incorporating a magical vocabulary and nightside symbolism, IJYNX is a unique collection of occult prose-poems by an author who has been studying, experimenting, and writing about the western esoteric tradition for over twenty years. While some of the mystical verses attempt to convey ritually-machined hyperdimensions of consciousness (including encounters with the trans-mundane entities that inhabit these parallel continua), others contain, rather inexplicably, detailed knowledge of a higher Arcanum involving the alchemical entelechy of the dead. And still others challenge even the author's initiated interpretation of things perceived in the ontological spectrum of a `Magizoth', other than to suggest, upon a closer examination of the cryptic word play, that they are anti-apotropaic in nature, and offer, at the very least, rare fleeting glimpses of the Grand Dreaming of a Treasured Eye.

"...glittering word play... dazzling in their jeweled splendour. The sheer torrent of brilliance suggests to me a cascade, arrested, carved in rock-hard and unyielding prose. When recited aloud they create a devastatingly hypnotic effect. Thank you for a sumptuous feast."
- Kenneth Grant, O.H.O. Typhonian O.T.O.

ex. IJYNX poem, found over on dailygrail.com:
(site admin Greg Taylor edits BMB's literature)


UROBOROS

Violet eyes shine.
Jeweled water of the living graal,
Gilded, stainless vessel 'neath the prismatic lamp of Abraxas.
Night-blue draperies a-glitter with cosmic opulence,
Tides of blood aurified in her sacred chalice.
Radiant white-plumed dove shedding tears of rainbow wine,
Mooncup of red-gold with swirls of oily iridescence.
Lady of the serpent holding a richly-crowned babe,
Nurtured with gemmed drops of the milk of paradise.
Face enhaloed with light adored by amethyst-lidded eyes,
Child of great serenity protected by majestic wings,
Perfumed gauze of the vesture of the dragon-queen.
Spooned from calyx horroris the rich food of the matrix,
Extracts of the perfect ruby flowing from her hidden spring.
Bestowing mystic sight to the prince in wisps of azure garment,
A wondrous flowering upon the deathless green.

Slain lamb bleeding the rarest colors,
Royal secret in morsels of dainty meats.
In those rosy fingers, a golden wafer held,
Sweet like the honey of breasts.

Majesty of a tawny lion in the aurora of a lustrous sun,
Anointed harlequin king enthroned in the Temple of Midnight.
Feast of crimson cakes offered by the peacock angel,
Horn of plenty from the purity of silver nectar.
Orange-gold galaxies in a Krater of celestial firefoam,
Tower of ivory bedecked with the exiled emerald stone
Held in purple gloves of ornate, pattern-draped kings
Swallowing heart-drops of the virgin's unfading glory.
Scarlet-jetted fountain of the unmated mother
Converted into a vehicle of the highest light.
Vivified dreams reached by mercurial swan-chariot,
Tapestry of paradise hidden in a flame's black majesty.
Shimmer of kingdoms in spring's gemmed rain,
Blessed greenness of the companions of the Sangraal,
Jeweled flesh of the living treasure.
Violet eyes shine.


Blair MacKenzie Blake has been studying, practicing and writing about the western esoteric tradition for over twenty years. More recently, he has been focusing his attention on the neurochemical basis of successful magickal workings (and paranormal activity in general) BMB is also the writer for www.toolband.com and www.dannycarey.org.
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