I'm a musician, and I love the album, but it doesn't matter whether someone is a musician or not, if they have ears then they can have an opinion.

Tenacious D - One Note Song


That track is meant as a joke, but at the end of it they make an excellent point. KG said "But anyone could've wrote it" What he really means is that it's so simple that anyone can play it.

And sure, it doesn't require much musical experience or knowledge to write, but if you're able to write music that communicates your message, you've done something that a LOT of people are incapable of, no matter HOW EASY it is for other people to come back and play what you wrote.

Johnny Cash's version of Hurt is better than Trent Reznor's.

I'm a musician and I love this album.

Only because he sounds like he is dying.

Thats a lot of what i'm trying to say. I think 60% (at least) of music is in the performance.

LOL!

He was, etc.

I don't think it's 60%.


Hmm, now that I think about this more...

It's probably more like 49, 49, 2.

2% goes to recording.

49% goes to writing.
49% goes to performing.

However, writing is a mental test of your ability to creatively express yourself musically.
Performing is the physical test of providing your interpretation of the composer's message.


There are still far more people in the world that are capable of making an excellent performance than there are people in the world who can write excellent music.

Here's a good example: Every boy band, or pop female singer. How much of that music did they actually write? They might've had a couple ideas for the lyrics, but honestly... and yet, no matter how retarded and poppy it all is, it's hard to deny that they have good voices and put on a good show (despite the bad music that they didn't even write).

I can see your POINT now Oberon.
In that every point is pointless. Right?
Oh shit i crack myself up.

point can you see my point point it out the point is the pot point

I'm curious, whats your musical background?

So how is the pointing going Oberonekinobi?

Exactly my Point!!!

thats only part of the point =)

Yes, I get your point....thought it was clear I was fucking around. Sucks for you that you dont get emotion out of Wings. Fortunately for me its the opposite.

yeah, i knew you were fucking around, but i wanted to make sure that despite the sarcasm you still got it.

Ummm... hmm....
All my non-musician friends love it
half of my band loves it (including me) the other two like it but definatley realize how good musicians they are.

If you don't appreciate it musically, then you don't know what a polyrythm is. If you argue that you do and it is not applied right, you are wrong.

I can't even understand the rythm in Jambi at all. WTF is going on there?

Try listening to just the guitar. Block out the rhythm of the drums and especially the vocals. It might be easier to catch on doing this.

Performed in an excellent high school band (which wasn't that long ago for me).
I've got numerous music programs on my computer for those nights when I trick myself into thinking that I can write, etc.
Personal interest/studies in music theory type stuff.
Uhm, and for what it's worth, I know a couple people in local bands (one of them is actually going to be reviewed in an underground music mag with a track on the demo CD, and they've got a shot at being on second stage at ozzfest).
And for more "what it's worth," I work in the music department of an entertainment store.


I don't claim to be "more informed" than anyone here, but I do know I've seen both sides of it...

I still don't understand what Adam is playing in parts of "The Grudge". Don't even get me started on "Jambi". I tried playing it on guitar a few days ago and I got lost 5 seconds in.

It's cool, but honestly, you don't get anything out of wings? The first few times I listened to it, I got chills. I can't imagine that song live if Maynard puts his all into it.

I like you for sure-
Wanna get a beer after this?
If i leave now im pretty sure i can be in the u.s in about 24 hours or so.

I love this album but have no idea what a polyrythm is. can you explain so i can feel smart :P

Thats what i mean. i can play the guitar part, but the writing and how it comes together is how it blows my mind.


Tool may be "easy" to play, but hard to write. danny carrey's shit isn't that easy to play.

Manyards is really hard to sing.

So what do you say Oberon
How about the beer?

A poly rhythm is when you have more than one rhythm subdivsion going on at once. In jambi, there are parts where the measure (which is 9 beats) is subdivided as
3 - 3 - 3, and then there are times where the measure is divided as 2-2-2-3, then there are times where they play both at the same time.


Jambi isn't the best example of a polyrhythm, but okay.

edit:

(I dont drink)

Okay, well, it just seemed that we had very different ideas on what performance and writing meant.

My drummer could explain this better but i'll give it a shot.

Essentially it is when two or more implied time signatures are going on at the same time. Math is involved.

For example, my band has a song where I play in 9/8

Straight 8th notes (go ahead and correct me if I'm wrong musicians)

So there is 9 note pattern I am repeating (you could write it in 4/4 but then it would be linear and would change every measure)

Every 6 notes I play the guitarist strikes a chord (6/8). he plays 3 different chords.

me- different notes I'm playing (includes octaves)
him-different chords he is striking (A doesn't mean an A chord ect, just to label the different chords he is playing)

me - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

him - A--------- B----------C----------

So I have to play my part twice before we start on the same note/chord

Seems simple to write because its just a little math, 6 goes into 18, 3 times

Well it gets trickier when you want to find a pattern for two guitar parts for example, that match up melodically and sound good

Tool's Polyrythm equations are much much more complicated and better written.

Danny carry does polyrythms withing his own drum kit with different limbs, How drummers do this is beyond me.

What's your musical background?

ah ha! thank you all. i'm surprised you guys weren't dicks and didn't say GO TO DICTIONARY.COM. which i probably should have. thanks though guys :)

played in the school band from 5th grade to senior year in high school (started on alto sax, then bari, then bass clarinet, then tenor sax, then soprano clarinet), played in a rock band from sophomore year onwards (electric bass / vocals), Took a theory class my senior year of high school, sang in a musical senior year (little shop of horrors - i was the plant), now i attend berklee college of music as an electric bass principle with the intention of majoring in music education.


Maybe its the jazz influence (the AWFUL AWFUL JAZZ INFLUENCE) that i'm getting from hanging around berklee, but the more i study, the more i realize how writing isn't THAT big of a deal, and performance is much more important. Of course, JAZZERS think that performance is everything and they're full of shit.



Its a balance.

Anyone heard Cult of luna`s last effort?

For the record, my point was that Tool is not playing up to their potential on this album. I think anyone who is a musician should be able to hear this.

If I thought they sucked altogether I wouldn't listen or play their music now would I?

It's like watching Lance Armstrong in a bike race and he's going half the speed of everyone else. What would people think of that? (I know he is retired...)

This board is full of some seriously bent-out-of-shape people.

Makes sense.

Performance is much more important when it comes to Jazz. And I do love Jazz...
Jazz is probably like 80% performance.

Classical type stuff, neo-classic, etc. etc. etc. = 80% writing.

But for most stuff, I'd say that it's probably a bit of a balance.



By the way, if you like Jazz...
http://www.fazz-music.com/
I don't speak French...but if you click "Music" it'll take you to some clips (or full songs, can't remember). Really good. It's like, jazz + electro-house fusion.

To continue your simile, if Lance Armstrong is in a bike race and he's going half the speed of everyone else, it's only because he's twice as far along the race as everyone else. Just some food for thought.

I am sorry, but i am TOTALLY SICK of jazz. send me the link in a couple months after i've been decompressin. Jazz is a horrible virus that infects you and leaves you ragged. Berklee SHOVES JAZZ DOWN YOUR THROAT like mainstream society shoves rap, pop, emo, etc.

Yes, I was a Jazz Composition/Guitar Performance major. Jazz is all about the performance. The writing is very much secondary in that style.

XM has some interesting performances, but the songwriting is where they went astray.

I don't think you can boil writing and performance into percentages. If you are watching someone live, the song can suck, but the performance can win you over. If you are listening to an album, you need well-written songs, otherwise you don't tend to listen to them much in the long term.

This album has a complete lack of emotional connection that cannot be saved by the performances on it--for better or worse.

Oh no, one of THOSE guys. wanna play some 2-5s? =) thats what my and my friends (mostly prog rockers) say when we have to go practice / listen to / play jazz.


Jazz = 2-5-1. And then some Bebop soloing. then 2-5-1 again. maybe a sub5.

Jazz that is cool-
Medeski Martin and Wood
Electric Miles Davis
Pat Metheny ("Question and Answer" Live versions of this song should permanently put all Jambands to rest forever)
Tortoise (can it count as Jazz? Probably Not)