This song is not about Jesus, for Christ's sake. This song is about someone he knew and knew well. There is nothing Christ like about the person in this song. " Waving and pointing his finger at everything but his heart, We'll miss him" somehow does not lead me to think this song is about Jesus........ I think it's about someone he knew, someone who ranted and raged against everyone around him without taking a look at himself first.......
shit jduh i never quite looked at it that way it makes alotta sense. i had my own reasons for thinking it wasnt about jesus, but i wont mention them because theyve been stated many times.
Here is an even better proof that isn't not about Jesus Christ...
It's about Martin Luther (person putting in the nails and speaking) against the corrupted catholic priests who were selling Indulgences as well countless other acts of corruption ... He NAILED95 theses to the Main Door to the Wittenburg (Catholic) Church against the corrupted Catholic Church of its time that controlled all of Europe....
so in this way, it's almost in the same token as TooL nailing their theses on the door of today's religious corruption.. the same way Martin Luther did in his day. Martin Luther didn't want his own sect.. his own religion.. He just wanted to reform the Catholic Church considering He, Himself, was a Catholic... much like the way Jesus Christ was a Jew.
As some fellow TND poster mentioned before, in the beginning of the song.. it seems as if they are nailing something.... however, it was discussed how the nails being driven into the wood were too quick for it to be nailing a person as it would take stronger, slower blows to the nails... it would require larger nails as well that it would produce a different sound.
However, it seems as if today that the Lutherans are a very "God-fearing Christian Conservatives" which was not really what Luther was at all... Luther was a rebel (hero) for truth and justice against the corruption of society and of spirituality. We can not blame Luther with his "pure intentions" for the doings of his followers unless we were to blame Maynard for the idiots that follow Him. Thus, we should keep Luther's spirit alive in a new form (body), a New Age, a New Church to celebrate his original teachings of truth and justice.....however, we must evolve his original ideas to today's world and understandings and not to take his ideas literally.
This is very nicely done. These thoughts have persuaded me into yoru beliefs. Nice
__________________ The Unwilling Mind of the Altered Soul.
Thats mighty intresting the first post had little to no iteligence but jduh puts some back bone into the none jesus idea... very nice! and thats even more intresting with the nailing aspect!
“He had alot to say.
He had alot of nothing to say.
We'll miss him.”
This doesn’t indicate any particular person.
“So long.
We wish you well.
You told us how you weren't afraid to die.”
I’m not an expert, but I don’t think Jesus said he wasn’t afraid to die.
“Well then, so long.
Don't cry.
Or feel too down.
Not all martyrs see divinity.
But at least you tried.”
As far as I’m concerned, Jesus was divine. I suppose that Maynard could easily disagree, and these lines could be about Jesus.
“Standing above the crowd,
He had a voice that was strong and loud.
We'll miss him.”
This could be about Jesus, but it’s sung sarcastically.
“Ranting and pointing his finger
At everything but his heart.
We'll miss him.”
Jesus did not “rant,” nor did he point his finger accusingly (as this suggests). He did pay attention to what was in his heart.
“No way to recall
What it was that you had said to me,
Like I care at all.”
These lines could be about anyone.
“So loud.
You sure could yell.
You took a stand on every little thing
And so loud.”
I don’t think Jesus ever yelled, and he took stands on mostly major issues.
“Standing above the crowd,
He had a voice so strong and loud and I
Swallowed his facade cuz I'm so
Eager to identify with
Someone above the ground,
Someone who seemed to feel the same,
Someone prepared to lead the way, with
Someone who would die for me.”
These lines, in my opinion, hint towards someone Maynard knows/knew personally.
“Will you? Will you now?
Would you die for me?
Don't you fuckin lie.
Don't you step out of line.
Don't you fuckin lie.”
Jesus did die. Willingly.
“You've claimed all this time that you would die for me.
Why then are you so surprised to hear your own eulogy?”
Jesus was not surprised, he knew when it was going to happen, and didn’t try to run away or fight back.
“You had alot to say.
You had alot of nothing to say."
These lines could be about anyone.
“Come down.
Get off your fuckin cross.
We need the fuckin space to nail the next fool martyr.”
This could be about anyone. “Get off you cross” is a cliché.
“To ascend you must die.
You must be crucified
For your sins and your lies. [sic]
Goodbye...”
Jesus was crucified in order to ascend…but he did it willingly for all of our sins/lies…not his.
Last edited by Cylith; 03-14-2004 at 04:17 PM..
Reason: spacing errors
I never really assosciated Eulogy with jesus. I always aligned it more with a singer. Perhaps something MJK and Tool despised, thoughs that get on stage as if it were an altar and, as hypocrites, espouse condemnation on everything they may not enjoy or like, demanding that you see the world as a harsh evil place full of liars and hypocrites while denying it in themselves. Of course most of this is taken from within me for I hold this contempt with most politically/socially active. My hero's are all dead, the fell from wounds of common day where little flaws make mortal wounds. Underneath a spotlight in the world, no man is perfect. I suppose in that sense I can understand why you assosciated this song with jesus. But then again I never saw Opiate as attacking jesus, more of the ministers and priests. Christ is not corroupt, but those that wield him for their own defense or as a weapon against others, more often than not, are.
Spirituality is good.
Expressing and exploring personal beliefs is fine.
Beliefs close the door on future thought and education on anything outside your conventions.
Religion is niether good nor fine, it is the seed that corroupts many men and their minds.
Maybe this is why "beliefs are dangerous, beliefs allow the mind to stop functioning..." blah blah blah blah blah so on and so forth
“So loud.
You sure could yell.
You took a stand on every little thing
And so loud.”
I don’t think Jesus ever yelled, and he took stands on mostly major issues.
jesus did yelled... it stands in the bible!
he yelled once in the templ when he got mad (only time he got mad) on salesmen in the temle
"this is a house of god, not a market"
I also agree that this song has nothing to do w/ jesus. I believe it simply denounces "false martyrdom". I think MJK does not like it when people hold themselves in high regard (some preachers and ministers, like the guys on TV do).
It could possibly be about his personal music idols, or any other idols that he might have had at one point in his life. Like all idols, they end up failing you. These people tend to say these things about how the fans are so important to them, how they would never sell out, blah blah blah, and then they do. They dissapoint in 9.9999 out of 10 cases. This was probably the case with him.
what people will be saying about him in a few years time, when he, like every other betrays everything he claims to believe in etc etc. and is replaced by the next 'maynard'..
'he had alot of nothing to say...
...told how you weren't afraid to die, well so long...'
maynard never was one for blowing his own trumpet. just an idea.
Not preacher but Singer? that holds him above the crowd.
An Idol who is corrupted by his own hype? Takes on the form of the self-rightous minister archetype?
Going to maybe piss some people off but it reminds me of whenever this one guy gives an interview about his music...
brian warner?
I see where you are going with this, I think that in a number of ways you are right. I think that lately he has changed from that however. I think that he was that way partially during the Antichrist Superstar days, but he was self-righteous before he got any hype. He was already corrupt. I understand why you would aim that way, I just see him more as comparing himself to different things that he associates with himself at different points of his life.
Portrait of an American Family= Rebel, I'll do what I want, work for who I want the way I want, etc...
Smells Like Children=some of them want to abuse you, some of them want to be abused, more of a compromise CD actually, he wasn't going to do it
Antichrist Superstar=compares his fame to becoming the Antichrist, in the words of John Lennon "we're more popular than God"
Mechanical Animals=more of a comparison to God, feelings, sympathy, compassion, loss, etc....
Holywood=his childhood in a CD
Golden Age of Grotesque= a display of his appreciation for culture, art, politics, etc...
He has at times been the self-righteous minister though. Oh well, I still think he is amusing to follow, and I like his music.
When you tell someone that they are wrong, you should justify your reason for saying that, otherwise we have no reason to believe what you say more than the person you're trying to correct.
what people will be saying about him in a few years time, when he, like every other betrays everything he claims to believe in etc etc. and is replaced by the next 'maynard'..
'he had alot of nothing to say...
...told how you weren't afraid to die, well so long...'
maynard never was one for blowing his own trumpet. just an idea.
I considered this for a while, but I didn't give it enough thought. It does tie in with what I said a lot. It makes sense. I think that it is probably about anybody's music idol. Especially a teen's music idol. Actually, it could be any idol.
When you tell someone that they are wrong, you should justify your reason for saying that, otherwise we have no reason to believe what you say more than the person you're trying to correct.
i'll try to explain :)
when he was on the cross he said "father into your hands i give my spirit"
he was afraid, in this we saw his humanity...
he said that he will die only if that is the will of his father... he didn't want to die...
when he was on the cross he said "father into your hands i give my spirit"
he was afraid, in this we saw his humanity...
he said that he will die only if that is the will of his father... he didn't want to die...
I knew that in his humanity he was afraid, in the garden he asked to be saved from the traps being layed for him. He also said that the Father's will be done, not his. I know that he was afraid of it, I just wanted you to explain and not just expect us to believe you.
Well...I tried to stop interpreting every little facet of every song after I came to my own conclusion on them...I know that I won't nail exactly what Maynard had in his head when he wrote ever single song...And personally, I am led to believe that this song is about Timothy Leary...just as the song Opiate was...but I'm probably wrong...I've learned to just enjoy the music, and just thank Maynard for all that he and the rest of the band does for the world of music...
...And oh yeah...my phallus is bigger than all of yours...
When you tell someone that they are wrong, you should justify your reason for saying that, otherwise we have no reason to believe what you say more than the person you're trying to correct.
There's a difference between not wanting to do something, and being scared.
and for lunas i'll explain myself.
Most kids don't want to wake up early and go to school, doesn't mean your afraid of it, it just means it's gonna suck.
Jesus knew that it was going to suck to die (in the flesh) but this was the only way. God tried other ways before, miracles, ect.
Why would Jesus be afraid. The reasons most people are afraid of death is because they are afraid of what's after it, but Jesus knew he's going back to heaven (he was stoked, get to go back to paradise), so he was probally thinking, this is going to suck, but i have to do this.
I also agree that this song has nothing to do w/ jesus. I believe it simply denounces "false martyrdom". I think MJK does not like it when people hold themselves in high regard (some preachers and ministers, like the guys on TV do).
i agree with you... i think it's about self rightous people who hold themselves in high regard, but who speak of nothing but bullshit...
“He had alot to say.
He had alot of nothing to say.
We'll miss him.”
This doesn’t indicate any particular person.
“So long.
We wish you well.
You told us how you weren't afraid to die.”
I’m not an expert, but I don’t think Jesus said he wasn’t afraid to die.
“Well then, so long.
Don't cry.
Or feel too down.
Not all martyrs see divinity.
But at least you tried.”
As far as I’m concerned, Jesus was divine. I suppose that Maynard could easily disagree, and these lines could be about Jesus.
“Standing above the crowd,
He had a voice that was strong and loud.
We'll miss him.”
This could be about Jesus, but it’s sung sarcastically.
“Ranting and pointing his finger
At everything but his heart.
We'll miss him.”
Jesus did not “rant,” nor did he point his finger accusingly (as this suggests). He did pay attention to what was in his heart.
“No way to recall
What it was that you had said to me,
Like I care at all.”
These lines could be about anyone.
“So loud.
You sure could yell.
You took a stand on every little thing
And so loud.”
I don’t think Jesus ever yelled, and he took stands on mostly major issues.
“Standing above the crowd,
He had a voice so strong and loud and I
Swallowed his facade cuz I'm so
Eager to identify with
Someone above the ground,
Someone who seemed to feel the same,
Someone prepared to lead the way, with
Someone who would die for me.”
These lines, in my opinion, hint towards someone Maynard knows/knew personally.
“Will you? Will you now?
Would you die for me?
Don't you fuckin lie.
Don't you step out of line.
Don't you fuckin lie.”
Jesus did die. Willingly.
“You've claimed all this time that you would die for me.
Why then are you so surprised to hear your own eulogy?”
Jesus was not surprised, he knew when it was going to happen, and didn’t try to run away or fight back.
“You had alot to say.
You had alot of nothing to say."
These lines could be about anyone.
“Come down.
Get off your fuckin cross.
We need the fuckin space to nail the next fool martyr.”
This could be about anyone. “Get off you cross” is a cliché.
“To ascend you must die.
You must be crucified
For your sins and your lies. [sic]
Goodbye...”
Jesus was crucified in order to ascend…but he did it willingly for all of our sins/lies…not his.
you guys are getting closer.
"standing above the crowd"
does it not make sense that could be referring to maynard himself standing above the crowd at a concert?
__________________ -<-:[\/] e x a h J o l L |\|]:->-
“He had alot to say.
He had alot of nothing to say.
We'll miss him.”
This doesn’t indicate any particular person.
“So long.
We wish you well.
You told us how you weren't afraid to die.”
I’m not an expert, but I don’t think Jesus said he wasn’t afraid to die.
“Well then, so long.
Don't cry.
Or feel too down.
Not all martyrs see divinity.
But at least you tried.”
As far as I’m concerned, Jesus was divine. I suppose that Maynard could easily disagree, and these lines could be about Jesus.
“Standing above the crowd,
He had a voice that was strong and loud.
We'll miss him.”
This could be about Jesus, but it’s sung sarcastically.
“Ranting and pointing his finger
At everything but his heart.
We'll miss him.”
Jesus did not “rant,” nor did he point his finger accusingly (as this suggests). He did pay attention to what was in his heart.
“No way to recall
What it was that you had said to me,
Like I care at all.”
These lines could be about anyone.
“So loud.
You sure could yell.
You took a stand on every little thing
And so loud.”
I don’t think Jesus ever yelled, and he took stands on mostly major issues.
“Standing above the crowd,
He had a voice so strong and loud and I
Swallowed his facade cuz I'm so
Eager to identify with
Someone above the ground,
Someone who seemed to feel the same,
Someone prepared to lead the way, with
Someone who would die for me.”
These lines, in my opinion, hint towards someone Maynard knows/knew personally.
“Will you? Will you now?
Would you die for me?
Don't you fuckin lie.
Don't you step out of line.
Don't you fuckin lie.”
Jesus did die. Willingly.
“You've claimed all this time that you would die for me.
Why then are you so surprised to hear your own eulogy?”
Jesus was not surprised, he knew when it was going to happen, and didn’t try to run away or fight back.
“You had alot to say.
You had alot of nothing to say."
These lines could be about anyone.
“Come down.
Get off your fuckin cross.
We need the fuckin space to nail the next fool martyr.”
This could be about anyone. “Get off you cross” is a cliché.
“To ascend you must die.
You must be crucified
For your sins and your lies. [sic]
Goodbye...”
Jesus was crucified in order to ascend…but he did it willingly for all of our sins/lies…not his.
you guys are getting closer.
"standing above the crowd"
does it not make sense that could be referring to maynard himself standing above the crowd at a concert?
could he be just fitting pieces together with this song comparing himself to jesus with the means of where his life is going or a loved one or someone he knew?
__________________ -<-:[\/] e x a h J o l L |\|]:->-
My personal thoughts on this song is that it has a military theme to it. I won't go into detail about it but just think of it as a person in high command giving out orders.
“He had alot to say.
He had alot of nothing to say.
We'll miss him.”
This doesn’t indicate any particular person.
“So long.
We wish you well.
You told us how you weren't afraid to die.”
I’m not an expert, but I don’t think Jesus said he wasn’t afraid to die.
“Well then, so long.
Don't cry.
Or feel too down.
Not all martyrs see divinity.
But at least you tried.”
As far as I’m concerned, Jesus was divine. I suppose that Maynard could easily disagree, and these lines could be about Jesus.
“Standing above the crowd,
He had a voice that was strong and loud.
We'll miss him.”
This could be about Jesus, but it’s sung sarcastically.
“Ranting and pointing his finger
At everything but his heart.
We'll miss him.”
Jesus did not “rant,” nor did he point his finger accusingly (as this suggests). He did pay attention to what was in his heart.
“No way to recall
What it was that you had said to me,
Like I care at all.”
These lines could be about anyone.
“So loud.
You sure could yell.
You took a stand on every little thing
And so loud.”
I don’t think Jesus ever yelled, and he took stands on mostly major issues.
“Standing above the crowd,
He had a voice so strong and loud and I
Swallowed his facade cuz I'm so
Eager to identify with
Someone above the ground,
Someone who seemed to feel the same,
Someone prepared to lead the way, with
Someone who would die for me.”
These lines, in my opinion, hint towards someone Maynard knows/knew personally.
“Will you? Will you now?
Would you die for me?
Don't you fuckin lie.
Don't you step out of line.
Don't you fuckin lie.”
Jesus did die. Willingly.
“You've claimed all this time that you would die for me.
Why then are you so surprised to hear your own eulogy?”
Jesus was not surprised, he knew when it was going to happen, and didn’t try to run away or fight back.
“You had alot to say.
You had alot of nothing to say."
These lines could be about anyone.
“Come down.
Get off your fuckin cross.
We need the fuckin space to nail the next fool martyr.”
This could be about anyone. “Get off you cross” is a cliché.
“To ascend you must die.
You must be crucified
For your sins and your lies. [sic]
Goodbye...”
Jesus was crucified in order to ascend…but he did it willingly for all of our sins/lies…not his.
perfecto. Exactly what I think. I believe Maynard is generalizing icons...who in the end, aren't that great anyway. People follow them, though, because they're "eager to identify with someone above the crowd". This song is genius.
i think its a bit more general and not necessarily one person, or atleast one person that we would all know....
“Come down.
Get off your fuckin cross.
We need the fuckin space to nail the next fool martyr.”
i think its about people with God-complexes.... and overly conservative Christians who take shit to the next level.... like Hitler, who interpret things from Jesus and the bible in a wierd way and think that they have the right to take over the world- i guess it couldn't be Hitler specefically because he wouldn't say that he would die for someone...
However, you get my jist. overall, i think its that lady at church who says that she would do anything in the name of Jesus, goes to Church everyweek, she would even die for Jesus and his cause, and then when a new poor guy whose had a rough life and done his fair doings of "unchristian-like" shit and is "unholey" comes into the church looking for some help, she sticks her nose up at him like hes dirt. PEOPLE LIKE THAT PISS ME OFF. they are the ones that make Christianity a joke and have a bad immage. the ones that i think maynards bitching about too, in a very creative and intriguing way.
__________________ "i'm shorter than he is, i have nothing to say."
-mjk (MTV Interview)
I think that theres alot of good stuff here, and alot of the theories have authenticity. For instance, I thought the Bill Hicks theory to be really interesting. When I first heard the song I thought Maynard sung it in a sort of antogonistic/sarcastic mannor. But since eulogies are typically given in respect of a person it makes sense that it could be about bill hicks, since bill had some sort of influence on Maynard. Ha! How awesome would it be if you had an influence on Maynard? Id be fucking honored!! Anyway, i think the line "come down, get off your fucking crosss....." disproves the whole hicks theory. Why would call someone you respect a "fool Martyr"? I think the best thoery is that its about religious zealots. Those who preach the good word of god and say they are good christians, but treat others and often times their own family like shit. I've experienced this firsthand and can say that these people are some of the biggest hippocrites on earth and are almost entirely full of shit and just generally piss me off.
I think that theres alot of good stuff here, and alot of the theories have authenticity. For instance, I thought the Bill Hicks theory to be really interesting. When I first heard the song I thought Maynard sung it in a sort of antogonistic/sarcastic mannor. But since eulogies are typically given in respect of a person it makes sense that it could be about bill hicks, since bill had some sort of influence on Maynard. Ha! How awesome would it be if you had an influence on Maynard? Id be fucking honored!! Anyway, i think the line "come down, get off your fucking crosss....." disproves the whole hicks theory. Why would call someone you respect a "fool Martyr"? I think the best thoery is that its about religious zealots. Those who preach the good word of god and say they are good christians, but treat others and often times their own family like shit. I've experienced this firsthand and can say that these people are some of the biggest hippocrites on earth and are almost entirely full of shit and just generally piss me off.
