Saturns solar year is approximately 10,000 days, and since everyone knows the relevence of the Saturn symbol, what relevence do you think it has with this song?

NONE

Ah, just another symbolic coincidence eh?

Perhaps, but if you can think of a "sensible" correlation I'm all ears.

Saturn's solar year is much closer to 11,000 days than 10,000 days. The discrepency is more than 2 Earth solar years. The approximation is a bit misleading.

I was gonna say ... to say that it's "roughly 10,000 days" is to be off my about 8%.

isn't there a cycle of the sun that repeats every 11 years? last one was 2001? next one's 2012?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cycle
http://www.space.com/scienceastronom...lar_cycle.html
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2...ormwarning.htm
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...NGAFHJJL91.DTL
http://www.howtosurvive2012.com/htm/sun_05.htm

sunkissed?

When I first looked at it, I read that it was about 29 years long. 29 years times 365 is 10,585... Still pretty close. But its more accurately 29.46 years long. Even still, its remarkably close... According to Maynard himself, the same underlying point in Lateralus exists in 10,000 days, rephrased. So the correlation is probably not a coincidence.

10,000 days is a metaphor to a "Close to infinate number". Besides this, and the solar year of Saturn, I see no significance in that particular number.... And it's got to be important.

"E.M.P. from the mother and son tore the digital down "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novelty_theory

thank you!

hey hey,

i just wanted to share this thought with you but i didnt find any thead where i could post this, so i ended up in here :D
some days ago, while nicley studying the qaballah, i came to a quite fitting conclusion for 10,000 days. well, no real conclusion but at least a good idea:
for those of you who are familiar with the tree of life this could be interesting!
have you ever considered relating wings/10,000 days to the sephira of binah?
i mean, isnt it the perfect expression of the feelings and emotions connected to that sphere? for example the relation to the great mother, the dolor, the rain, the dark atmosphere around it, the expression of belief in general. perfectly binah, isnt it?
well, if wings/10,000 days is connected to binah (understanding), which is connected to the negative aspect, formative and passive, what is the antipode? in the tree glyph it's chokmah...
soooo, what is chokmah(wisdom) standing for? the positive aspect: activity, force.
the only song which could be attributed by these aspects is rosetta stoned!
so then everything became clear to me:
the album is split between "negative" and "positive" (i guess everyone had this conclusion :) )
like the two pillars in the tree of life diagram. for example vicarious is 100% geburah. (i dunno, the pot maybe also? it surely has something to do with justice)
binah (wings/10,000 days) at the top of the black pillar of severity and chokmah (lost keys/rosetta stoned) at the top of the white pillar of mercy.
and it gets even better: the path connecting binah and kether (the crown) is the magus and the path linking kether and chokmah is the fool. the "hero" in rosetta stoned clearly has attributes of a fool. that's just too obvious :P but consider this: the fool is the highest card in the tarot and the most complex too, so it's not only a negative but also a veery positive symbol. (hey, he links kether and chokmah!)
but what about 10,000 days? the magus, hmmm. what is the quest of a magus? well, completing the great work. and how does he try to do that? well, he does a lot meditation on certain symbols. meditating... hmmm... wings surely has a meditative touch to it.. so... just a guess.
ok, i think not everyone will agree with me, but you have to admit that danny is veeery interested in these matters, and he HAS the tree of life on the highest spot in his picture in the booklet, so i guess these thoughts aren't sooo far fetched..
and for the qaballah sceptics: try not to see the teaching in a dogmatic light. it's a very beautiul, powerful and flexible glyph which can be applied to almost every religious system in the world... mhm, it's a great toy (tool) :)

and there's also this picture merging thingy i explained a while ago.
just look at the following picture and try to consider these facts: the skull danny opens, the pipe (dmt?). then the light/smoke rush through maynards head (mirror), up to the white bird. energy/consciousness flowing from yesod to chokmah? rosetta stoned?
would be a fitting interpretation, wouldnt it?

http://www.speedyshare.com/274809112.html

please let me know what you think...:D

I think it's a load of crap and that by now you've dug yourself to China and back about 5times

well, we all know how I feal, but ehh, just leads to problems usally... but it involves
taking down this idea a tad bit towards the face value side even though you did put some thought into it.... but maybe a little to much, this whole theory would have to assume 10,000 days was writin with the qaballah in mind the entire time, which I peronsally doubt, but then again I do think its more of a "take it as it is" (face value) as far as the lyrics go, but , besdies that, interesting in its own right but pretty far off from what is really going on here.. so yeah, kinda what inner said

I don't see much relevance to Saturn on this one. Maynard's mother was in that wheelchair for roughly 10,000 days and I think this one is an open-and-shut case on that.

thx, i always appreciate constructive criticism! smartass!!
by the way, it's 10 times and therefore i'm so white now that eveybody thinks i fell in a bucket of paint. my friends all ran away a year ago. they couldnt handle my fanatic approach to free thinking...

sorry, but i have to justify myself on this one. i hate it when others judge without spending a millisecond on thinking, while hurting them with their prejudices! (now don't think i'm weeping right now!)

yeah, i like educating myself about certain belief systems and various other "nonsense" (uuuuh, the ghost called consciousness, such esoteric gibberish). but hey, i dont make the mistake taking them literally! i just use my brain, in different ways you see - painting, playing, reading, learning, talking, laughing, being open for every new experience or opinion which could broaden my narrow view of the world we live in to make it even more worth living and - this is the point - TAKING MYSELF NO SO GODDAMN SERIOUS... just for the fun of it...

but im asking you
wtf is so wrong about that? because you dont seem to like these issues, think they are for nerds, geeks, gothics and who the fuck else doesnt mean they arent important for everyone (just like politics or economics, 'amiright?). for heavens sake, do YOU know the qabalah, or anything around it?
you see, i dont care who you are or what you achieved in your life, how many friends you have, how many womans you fuck simoultanously, how many nerds you smacked up good in this forum, 'cause after all YOU are the one who owns the right to wave that pimpin' hand of yours and what doesnt suits you is just plain and simple nerdish. because you got 2000 posts, this biiig brain and an eloquent way to express your dislike.
i really dont care!
because i think you are pretty arrogant when it comes to other peoples ideas, arent you?

so please, tell me what it is, that is sooo wrong about educating one self about the quabalah!
it seems you have the proper authority to answer such a nerdish question...

and now to you...

i never said that the whooole album is about the qabalah and you should start killing yourself if you dont read every little bit of mystic text around the tree of life.
i, for my part, take the album mostly by emotions and feel, the text is secondary.
but this doesnt mean it has NOTHING to do with the quabala. try to look at it like this:
every big artist uses a compository theme or blueprint for his picture. he doesnt start just by impulse (hm, zen artists do something like that, but thats another theme). so he starts drawing light lines on the empty canvas. triangles, diagonales, cubes, where people stand and objects are located to give it an harmonic look and feel. he uses the golden mean and maybe some SYMBOLS, which are known to most of us. this is the method for every artist in EVERY genre. literature, art and even music (wow).
sooo, why not say that tool - might - use some symbolism connected to the qabalah as a blueprint, or "backbone" to carry some of these ideas to the listener. after all its purely archetypal. mother, son, sun, angels, aliens... i hope you get the point.
dont take it literally, but SYMBOLICALLY. it's not the finished picture, but the light lines on the empty canvas! ;)

For starters, there's a big difference between thinking with logic and reason and just over analyzing things. I never said there was anything wrong with studying or looking into anything, I myself read up on almost any and everything that interests me, many of the same things you listed above as a matter fact. I'm well versed in many areas as are you and like to ponder thoughts and theories. The difference between us is that I also think with a level head and try to see things for what they really are and not live in some fairy tale reality where everything MUST have some kind of connection to the things I know. Yes, there are similarities and references in Tool's music to many aspects of their interests and hobbies. But even the whole band has said, quit over-analyzing this shit...it's not as deep as you make it out to be (not in those exact words); and they have said this many times. This is why I mention the movie 23 with Jim Carrrey, yes, the guy found many references of 23 and yes it's very interesting that they are there but the guy fucking drove himself nuts looking so hard to find it within every aspect of life. Just like you fuckin' thrid eye chakra quaballah freaks are doing. Yes, there are references to these things in their music but quit fucking digging so goddamn hard...some things in life and in Tool's music are actually simple. If I wanted to, I could find a reference to gerbils in some shape or form throughout every fucking song and you'd all think I was fucking retarded, and rightfully so.....

And this is what I've been saying....somewhat symbolically yes, but it's the people out there saying dumb shit like The Pot is about the Third Eye and Chakra colors/auras that are way off and looking far too much into it.

Hmm, ok, I am not sure if there is a language barier between germans and americans but I dont really get the part about staring to kill myself now if I don't read every little bit of mysitc text around the tree of life? I mean, sure the tree of life is very interesting but I think you are way over your head if you really think you should kill yourself over ANYTHING (well, unless its this awesome mass suicide end of the world scenerio that you can read about here : http://www.exitmundi.nl/suicide.htm , its awesome).. but I duno, I think anyone who gets that attached to ANY sacred text to the point where anyone who is not into those texts should kill themself has some deep rooted issues about where they belong in this life and what makes them happy (I mean sure, it works for you, but heck, is that not good enough?), I usally turn to basic buddhist ideas when I start getting that carried away about anything and lust laugh and realise how off base I am, take a deep breath, and realise life is good, be happy, and more inportantly , just be. (I could be wrong on all of this if I took your words the wrong way, they are pretty radical so maybe there is some kind of launguage issue)


Yeah, I do understand where you are coming from, I see what you are trying to say but I do not aggree.. I am not sure why a "big" artisit and a "little" artist (as far as fame and fourtune goes I am assuming) would have to go by ANY set or rules in the first place to create art, I mean, seems like that would really narrow down what "art" is by your definition, I mean,I am an artist (I hate defining this but for this conversation well ok), people purchase my "art" from time to time, I mainly do it for my own relase of emotions but I do not really go by any spirutal formula (knowingly, I am sure I may in the sub-mind) .. if its pure sybolism then its going to be a bitch to try and figure out what I or tool means , it would be very up for interpatation so should not be a big suprise if your ideas get contested as the nature of sybolism is that there is no real stone cut definiton of what it is, it could be all over the spectrum...

whan I make "art" I just jam out a few licks on guitar, record what sounds cool to me, manipulate is, add various synth parts and yeah, when I really dig it I may publish it.. but really , anything goes, I stick by no rules whatsoever except I have to like how it sounds even if it sounds like shit to the general public... I do some photography also and usally am very suprised when anyone wants to buy it at all but yeah, people find meaning in it for whatever meaning and I dont think it has to do with any forumla, i think its simple connections in the brain that when they see my stuff (or hear it) it makes them feal a certain way and they are inclined to buy something from me

so as far as what EVERY artist does, you may think that but that obviously does not make it true or even close to true, its your opinion, there is no truth behind any of that its just what you percive but I mean, who wrote this unspoken law about how ALL artists in EVERY genre lay out art? and further more, what authority do they have?


Oh, and I do aggree that tool *might* refrence sacred ideas and text when working on music, not doubt about that, but *might* and to *what extent* are up to them and only for us fans to really trip out on and try and make it fit into how we would think it should fit according to various pre-deterimined ideas on spiruitality and sacred texts that are in our minds and not tools.. its hard to see outside of this sometimes but thats how I feal..

Thanks for the input though, interesting enough though I dont aggree. Oh, and my bad on thinking you ment the whole album, you did say conclusion for 10,000 days but then did narrow it down a bit so no problem there/

OH BY THE WAY, if you did mean that part about killing my self over the tree of life then you are a fucking idiot and thats pretty much the end of this conversation and everything you have ever posted on here or will in the future is nonsesnse and I hope for others sake they do not take you seriously.. but lets hope thats not the case

I am starting to feal sorta lame for always saying "yeah, I aggree" with certain people but I feal that Inner is right on, really breaks down what I try to say sometimes in an easy to read better structered paragraph then my own.. but yeah, right on inner.

...never...
ehm, okay, i guess theres no language barrier.. you just overlooked some sarcasm, thats all...or i forgot to put the words in the right order, so then it's my fault (i think there's a "that" missing) ..sorry for that
either way, i DONT say anyone should kill him of herself for ANY reason, life's just too beautiful... that's my opinion!

i thank you both for sharing your views and opinons!
and i have to say i agree with you on more then just one issue. inner, maybe you got me wrong, or i was just too quick at the beginning...
i didnt spent much time on analyzing the record. maybe it sounds like it, because my whole post reads like i've worked days and days on these songs. but i did not at all...
even if you might not believe me, i'm a "down-to-earth" man too plus i dont make a big fuss about my religious interests. i'm surley no missionary and don't try to convince anybody of anything i read for my personal education. i learn it just for me, and as i stated at the beginning of my first post, i came to this, rather lengthy, conclusion WHILE reading some qabalah. it was more like: hey, this sound familiar, this could work with those two songs... i found it interesting, so my thought was to share it with you...for those who are also interested!

additionaly i think you are very right when you say you dont have to put the "23" in everything (metaphorically speaking) like some people like to do it. i dont do this neither!
but, you have to admit, that everything gains in beauty and richness, flavor and depth, if you start looking for the connections underneath. the details. just like a leaf from near distance gives you so many stunning informations, as like the roots, the trunk, the animals on and around it, that, in the end, the "big picture" of the tree ( just a plain ol' tree, lets say maple :) ) gains so much more beauty then just by watching it only from afar. the detail enriches the full image exponentially!
of course you can overdo this by "over-analyzing": you can still your thirst with water or drown in it... it's just the question of quantity. but analysing isn't bad. in the right portions its very good!

and also a word about the "art" issue:
i think the modern times have dissovled the way of perception of art in general. which i think is a very good thing! so dont get me wrong on this!
the point i wanted to make was, that the old "big" artists used such techniques for their large paintings. like van gogh, michelangelo, da vinci, albrecht dürer, renoir, rembrant, and so on. also componists like mozart or beethoven used themes in their symphonies. and writers like hesse, mann or joyce used them also. there are just more "ways" to art today. more intuitive! more emotional! thats great! :) but i say it isn't a bad thing to think before you start painting on an 200x400 cm big canvas ;)
i'm sorry if my ranting was a bit to harsh.

so hey, peace :)

Hey Man, that was a good response, allot better then most on here. I understand a bit more where you are coming from and it makes a bit more sense now. Thanks for clarafying & peace to you also

the end of a pointless struggle.

sicbanana, i believe you are correct in your theory. I thought it was obvious that Tool uses the kabalah in ther music. they did in lateralus, and it is used again in 10,000 days. After all, there are 11 tracks, which is the number of sephiroth in most(not all) versions of the tree of life. The only thing that would help people understand your interesting theory would be a visual aide. Do you have a link to a website that shows in detail the pillars and sephirot of the tree of life? i would like to help you develop this theory so we can understand this album a lil more

anyway back on topic here, maynard said in the revolver interview that rockstars like janis joplin and jimi hendrix died at 27 because they couldn't handle their saturn return. There, is that a sensible correlation to 10,000 days having something to do with saturn. Maybe saturns revolution isn't literally exactly 27 years but a little more, so the stars died a little before their saturn return had a chance to make them fully reborn and they drowned themselves in drugs and alcohol because they couldn't get their swollen egos out of the way. And yes i do think the kabalah has a lot to do with the entire album, on multiple levels. I'd like to see how this unfolds with the more knowledgeable people of the kabalah on here.

Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines

Another instance of a lurker pulling up years old threads...I love you guys.

Because none of us have heard that before?

I sure as hell don't

^ This.

...I hope I did that right.

the vibrations of the creation of this music stir our essence. thank you all for sharing your intuitions :)

Over the years of hashing out different ideas, philosophies and symbolism that has obviously been present in the music and artwork of the band, this has been a recurring Mantra of the lazy.

While true, an over analytic mind has a tendency to dis-empower it's own intuition, that serves absolutely no excuse for not exploring these ideas.

Just because we are talking about wild esoteric ideas and making sometimes absurd connections doesn't necessarily mean we believe them. Pick up a book. Pick up another one. Draw conclusions. Develop conspiracy theories... Over-think all of it! Just don't stop thinking... that's how we learn isn't it?

I've certainly learned a lot by exploring these ideas and talking them over with people on these forums. Maybe I could have just as easily taken more drugs and hoped my intuition would teach me everything? I mean... fuck books right?

I would say, the best advice is to remember that you are a 'cosmic schmuck' and don't BELIEVE everything you come up with.

Goddamn, I know this last post is now two months old, but I absolutely 100 percent agree with everything you just said.