Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
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Originally Posted by Misanthrope
Oh yeah, for the record I think that there are objective measures to artistic quality, but how much importance one places on each measure is subjective
Exactly...
As for the point of artists being able to improve. I'd definitely say it's possible, yet again it depends on what you're focusing on as an improvement. The tools which an artist use can easily be improved and polished...it's just a matter of whether that particular artist has the creativity and talent to incorperate such improvement in their art to push their work foward.
In regards to the actual topic, ha...I can't really pick one release as being better than another. From Opiate to Lateralus, I get completely different vibes from them(with Opiate and Undertow being the most similar in terms of feeling), so it would really depend on my mood, in terms of which record I would prefer.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
Man, did this thread get derailed. I don't understand why everyone is so concerned with ranking everything. It's music we're talking about, something that can never be ranked in numerical order. You can group it, ex: Tool, Pink Floyd, and Zep all produce higher quality music than artists like Not so Good Charlotte, $.50, and any other pop product name you want to throw in the mix. But then again, one group is artists and the other is just glorified advertisement.
As far as tool albums, I don't have a favorite. I might have a favorite at the moment, because it fits more with my current mood and goings on in life, but at the end of the day, I love them all the same, they're all amazing albums.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misanthrope
Oh yeah, for the record I think that there are objective measures to artistic quality, but how much importance one places on each measure is subjective, it varies from person to person and that's just fine.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
Oh my god. A few people just agreed with me, to at least some extent. This is insane.
Another point I made to Chris via pm wasthis:
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Originally Posted by MrMcPheezy
You have to remember that I'm a musician, and I've spent nearly half my life trying to understand music better. To say that the analysis of someone with no understanding of music caries just as much weight as mine...well yeah, that bothers me. It feels like a slap in the face. As though all the effort I've put into music throughout my life was pointless, because this other person can effortlessly make a statement about music just as relevant as important and as I can.
This is, at the heart of everything, what bothers me. The idea of intelligence being irrelevant. The idea that the emotional opinion of one person carries the same weight as the informed and well thought out opnion of another.
You liking Green Eggs and Ham does not mean that it is a better written book than Crime and Punishment.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMcPheezy
Oh my god. A few people just agreed with me, to at least some extent. This is insane.
Another point I made to Chris via pm wasthis:
This is, at the heart of everything, what bothers me. The idea of intelligence being irrelevant. The idea that the emotional opinion of one person carries the same weight as the informed and well thought out opnion of another.
You liking Green Eggs and Ham does not mean that it is a better written book than Crime and Punishment.
so basically this is you jerking yourself off because you think playing drums makes your opinion on a tool album better than his?
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
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Originally Posted by bluefire
so basically this is you jerking yourself off because you think playing drums makes your opinion on a tool album better than his?
No, it's me fucking explaining that people shouldn't fucking judge things they don't goddamn understand. What's so fucking difficult or complex about that? Goddammit. If you like it, fine, if you don't, fine. I don't give a fuck about people liking one thing more than another. What bothers me is that someone with no understanding of art can somehow have an opinion of the quality of art that carries merit with others.
Like it or dislike it, I don't give a fuck. Tell me it's good or bad, well written or poorly written, and that's when I start caring. That's when I start paying attention. Tell me that it's good or bad, well written or poorly written because of your personal/emotional reaction to it, and that's when I get angry/frustrated The quality of art is not fucking based around how much you like it. Get over your goddamn selves. You fucking accuse me of jerking off in this thread when you're the dick with the fucking audacity to think that the quality of a piece of art is based on whether or not you fucking like it. Fuck that. Put some goddamn effort into your opinions. That's all I'm fucking saying.
I know that he likes Undertow more than other albums. That's fine. What the fuck ever. That's one thing, and it's a completely different thing to say that because of his personal tastes, the quality of the music, the quality of the composition, the quality of the musical ideas on the album are better than those on other albums.
That's what music is. Ideas. Musical concepts. Phrases are often refered to as ideas. To say that all musical ideas are equal, regardless of skill required/complexity/creativity/intellect required to create them...that's what's pissing me off so much. To say that the drumming danny carey does is no better than the drumming the bitch from the white stripes does, and that the only difference between the two is how much we as individuals like or dislike hearing them...that's what fucking bothers me.
And at the core, that's what you who disagree with me are saying, whether you realize it or not. You're saying that art cannot be compared objectively. That only intuitive opinions matter. I can't understand that way of thinking. It concerns me on many levels.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
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Originally Posted by MrMcPheezy
Tell me it's good or bad, well written or poorly written, and that's when I start caring.
I guess this is the crux of your argument: its fine if you think it's better but if you're going to say why, then have some reason to back up your statement.
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Originally Posted by MrMcPheezy
What bothers me is that someone with no understanding of art can somehow have an opinion of the quality of art that carries merit with others.
Knowledge of the subject matter is your point. But... and here's the big but: who set the guidelines for good art/music. Indivduals or groups of individuals with their own take on what is and isn't good/excellent/talented etc artistry. The fact that we have established through time, what constitutes fine art doesn't mean that it wasn't somebody's subjective opinion extrapolated down through the ages.
__________________ If this grand panorama before me is what you call God....
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
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Originally Posted by UtUmNo1
I guess this is the crux of your argument: its fine if you think it's better but if you're going to say why, then have some reason to back up your statement.
In a sense, but I'm going to argue the semantics yet again.
It's ok if you like it more, but that doesn't make it better.
And actually, if you like one thing more than another, I don't really give a fuck why. I'm simply asking that people seperate their subjective opinions from objective analysis. Realize that art's objective quality does not rely on their subjective opinions.
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Originally Posted by UtUmNo1
Knowledge of the subject matter is your point. But... and here's the big but: who set the guidelines for good art/music. Indivduals or groups of individuals with their own take on what is and isn't good/excellent/talented etc artistry. The fact that we have established through time, what constitutes fine art doesn't mean that it wasn't somebody's subjective opinion extrapolated down through the ages.
I think you're wrong here. I think there are objective reasons that we have the standards that we have. I mean...maybe I can't explain this well enough...but there's a reason that 4/4 feels more natural than 7/8. I'm not exactly sure what that reason is, but I know that it exists. Just as iambic pentameter is the most fluid meter in the english language. I don't personally know why those things are true, but I know that they are. There's a reason minor keys sound sad while major keys sound happy. Those are objective facts about music. There are many more. It is through the proper use of thses objective facts that "good" music is written. There's a reason that repitition is the simplest and least effect means of development. It's not simply because some people decided a long time ago that that's how it is, it's because that's how it is. That's how the human mind works. It loses interests when things are repeated more than is necessary, and it's interest is retained by new ideas that it can recognize and relate to previous ideas. Fine art is created through knowledge and proper use of these objective facts.
I'm not sure I'm explaining this part of my point well enough, but I'm doing the best I can.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMcPheezy
I think you're wrong here. I think there are objective reasons that we have the standards that we have. I mean...maybe I can't explain this well enough...but there's a reason that 4/4 feels more natural than 7/8.
It doesn't to me, they both sound equally natural.
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There's a reason minor keys sound sad while major keys sound happy.
They both sound dumb to me.
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There's a reason that repitition is the simplest and least effect means of development. It's not simply because some people decided a long time ago that that's how it is, it's because that's how it is. That's how the human mind works. It loses interests when things are repeated more than is necessary, and it's interest is retained by new ideas that it can recognize and relate to previous ideas. Fine art is created through knowledge and proper use of these objective facts.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
You make a very good point and I cannot refute your argument. It works particularly well for music but I'm not sure if it holds for visual arts and the more subjective (dare I say it!) and abstract forms of expression.
Four pages of riling up all those who disagreed with you (and yourself), could have been done away with with this one explanatory paragraph :)
__________________ If this grand panorama before me is what you call God....
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
Quote:
Originally Posted by UtUmNo1
You make a very good point and I cannot refute your argument. It works particularly well for music but I'm not sure if it holds for visual arts and the more subjective (dare I say it!) and abstract forms of expression.
I'm not going to comment here because I don't know nearly as much about visual art.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UtUmNo1
Four pages of riling up all those who disagreed with you (and yourself), could have been done away with with this one explanatory paragraph :)
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
Why would one time signature sound more natural than another one? I don't understand that logic. They are all natural.
Why should some notes sound 'sad' and others sound 'happy'? Unless there was some point in your life in which minor keys were being played while something sad was happening then there is no reason for this. It's illogical.
And I don't see why anything would have to be repeated more than once really. Sometimes it's nice for a bit of excess, but eh. I don't like to read books where the text reads like 'It was a dark and stormy night, it was a dark and stormy night, it was a dark and stormy night, it was a dark and stormy night"
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misanthrope
Why would one time signature sound more natural than another one? I don't understand that logic. They are all natural.
Why should some notes sound 'sad' and others sound 'happy'? Unless there was some point in your life in which minor keys were being played while something sad was happening then there is no reason for this. It's illogical.
And I don't see why anything would have to be repeated more than once really. Sometimes it's nice for a bit of excess, but eh. I don't like to read books where the text reads like 'It was a dark and stormy night, it was a dark and stormy night, it was a dark and stormy night, it was a dark and stormy night"
Like I already said, I don't know why, but that's how things work.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misanthrope
For you.
..for everyone. I know you're just trying to be difficult as you always do, so I'm no longer going to discuss this with you.
It's saddening, because I bet some people will actually believe you and take your statements into account, not understanding the person that you are as well as I do.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMcPheezy
..for everyone.
Not at all, the whole reason abstract, surreal and dadaistic art evolved is because a lot of people were not satisfied by the aesthetics of more "classical" or "conventional" art.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misanthrope
Not at all, the whole reason abstract, surreal and dadaistic art evolved is because a lot of people were not satisfied by the aesthetics of more "classical" or "conventional" art.
This is not at all relevant to anything I saw talking about. Either you didn't understand what I said, or you don't actually know what you're talking about, or both.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMcPheezy
This is not at all relevant to anything I saw talking about. Either you didn't understand what I said, or you don't actually know what you're talking about, or both.
How is it not relevent? Just saying it isn't does not make it so. You say that it is "how things work" when it is clearly not. I explained that if it was how things worked for everybody then there would be no need for abstract art.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misanthrope
How is it not relevent? Just saying it isn't does not make it so. You say that it is "how things work" when it is clearly not. I explained that if it was how things worked for everybody then there would be no need for abstract art.
So what you're saying is that artists never feel any desire to push boundaries. What you're saying is that all artists stick to what's comfortable for them and others.
Fuck, I really need to put you on my ignore list here, too.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
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Originally Posted by MrMcPheezy
So what you're saying is that artists never feel any desire to push boundaries.
Why do you say that? Obviously if new art is being created every day then the boundries are constantly being pushed.
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What you're saying is that all artists stick to what's comfortable for them and others.
Quite the opposite. And I'm not sure how you jumped to that conclusion in the first place. A lot of what people do in abstract art is done to make people feel uncomfortable. Art which uses cliched techniques seems a lot more "comfortable" to me, as it is essentially the same thing being repackaged in a different way.
To me, techniques such as "using 4/4 for a natural feel" or "minor scale to make people sad!" used to work somewhat. But as I listened to music more and more I realised how illogical it was and became jaded; "Oh, this is the part where I'm supposed to feel sad" I would think, and then roll my eyes. But I digress.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misanthrope
Why do you say that? Obviously if new art is being created every day then the boundries are constantly being pushed.
Quite the opposite. And I'm not sure how you jumped to that conclusion in the first place.
Because you said that if 4/4 truly is a more natural feel, then no other time signatures would have been invented (that's obviously not word for word, but that seemed to be the point you were making). You used that to say that obviously 4/4 isn't a more nautral feel. What those statements really imply are that no one does anything that isn't comfortable. My point is that yes, 4/4 is a more natural feel. People don't always use it because they don't always want a natural feel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misanthrope
To me, techniques such as "using 4/4 for a natural feel" or "minor scale to make people sad!" used to work somewhat. But as I listened to music more and more I realised how illogical it was and became jaded; "Oh, this is the part where I'm supposed to feel sad" I would think, and then roll my eyes. But I digress.
I hadn't previously considered the effect that knowledge of these effects would have, and I thank you for bringing it to my attention.
And I know you're going to point out that I said I was putting you on my ignore list, and call me stupid or something for replying to this, but whatever. I decided to read this one post to see if you had anything worthwhile to say. Call me stupid for it, whatever.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
From what I've read, it seems that Pheezy and Chris are arguing about different things. There is no real clear objective way to rank art; however, the components and techniques that are used to make art can often be objectively graded and ranked. It would be ludicrus to say that Pheezy's untrained cousin is a better singer than Maynard, but it would be fine for someone to perfer the timbre of her voice over Maynards since taste is subjective and has very little correlation with the scale that is used to objectively grade such components of art. The same goes for song writing, and to a lesser extent albums.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
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Originally Posted by MrMcPheezy
Because you said that if 4/4 truly is a more natural feel, then no other time signatures would have been invented (that's obviously not word for word, but that seemed to be the point you were making).
That's not the point I was making at all. You misunderstood me, I was saying that not everyone feels the same way about these devices, and that is why different styles of art exist.
You can't say that one is "objectively" better, because while there are objective aspects to music, what people look for in music is subjective. And yes, while most people DO like songs that meet a certain template, not all do. Some people probably like a lot of repetition, and La Monte Young's The Well Tuned Piano would be their favourite piece, while other people would like little repition and therefore Orthrelm's Asristir Vieldriox would be their favourite album. It would be ridiculous to say that one is objectively better than the other because they are targeting different values.
So my thoughts are that the furthest you could logically go is say that the music is "objectively good considering it's intended audience". For example, Good Charlotte, knowing their audience and knowing what they themselves like, craft songs which meet the audience's needs.
Hopefully that makes sense, I think I went off track a bit.
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And I know you're going to point out that I said I was putting you on my ignore list, and call me stupid or something for replying to this, but whatever. I decided to read this one post to see if you had anything worthwhile to say. Call me stupid for it, whatever.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMcPheezy
I think you're wrong here. I think there are objective reasons that we have the standards that we have. I mean...maybe I can't explain this well enough...but there's a reason that 4/4 feels more natural than 7/8. I'm not exactly sure what that reason is, but I know that it exists.
This is only true of western music and western music listeners, and it's because the majority of western music is written in 4/4 or something close. If you look at indian music for example, it's written in odd time signatures and uses complex beat patterns, and this is what feels more natural to them. It's really just a matter of what you've grown up listening to.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misanthrope
Some people probably like a lot of repetition, and La Monte Young's The Well Tuned Piano would be their favourite piece, while other people would like little repition and therefore Orthrelm's Asristir Vieldriox would be their favourite album.
Re: In my current opinion, Undertow > All other Tool albums
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misanthrope
That's not the point I was making at all. You misunderstood me, I was saying that not everyone feels the same way about these devices, and that is why different styles of art exist.
I think we're both using the same rhetoric to discuss different thing. I'm pretty much just completely confused by what you said here.
I think I agree with you, though. They work a certain way, but not everyone feels the same way about them. Some people want to create/hear songs in 4/4 because it feels simple and natural. Others want to avoid 4/4 as much as possbile because it feels simple and natural.
Right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misanthrope
You can't say that one is "objectively" better, because while there are objective aspects to music, what people look for in music is subjective. And yes, while most people DO like songs that meet a certain template, not all do. Some people probably like a lot of repetition, and La Monte Young's The Well Tuned Piano would be their favourite piece, while other people would like little repition and therefore Orthrelm's Asristir Vieldriox would be their favourite album. It would be ridiculous to say that one is objectively better than the other because they are targeting different values.
I think I kind of agree with you here.
Again, I'm not exactly sure we're using all the rhetoric in the same way.
What I'm saying is that the manner in which the objective aspects of art effect people are just that: objective. One person may take an objectively attained feeling and enjoy it, while another may take it and dislike it, but that does not change the fact that they are attained by attention to art's objective aspects. If you want to make a song that will convey a feeling of sadness do you use major or minor chords? I'm not going to bother giving other examples, but you get the point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misanthrope
So my thoughts are that the furthest you could logically go is say that the music is "objectively good considering it's intended audience". For example, Good Charlotte, knowing their audience and knowing what they themselves like, craft songs which meet the audience's needs.
Hopefully that makes sense, I think I went off track a bit.
It does, but I think it leaves things such as creativity/ingenuity/intellect out of the equation, which I think we should be careful not to do. There was already a brief discussion on the fact that people liking your art does not make it good. I'd like to avoid having to go further into that.
edit: I'd like to state that I'm really fucking tired right now, so if I come back and reclarify/contradict myself tomorrow, that's why.
