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Old 12-15-2002, 07:18 PM   #1
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Why must we obsess over the meaning of live?

For those who followed my advise to come here from my Parabola posting, please bear with, its relevant.

There is only one group of people who really, truely know anything worth knowing, and I really hope I don't offend people by saying this, I know some of you hold your beliefs very close to your heart. What proof do you have that your beliefs are the truth? Sorry be the one to pop your bubble.

We will all eventually join that group of people who know. I am referring to the dead. People who have passed on.

Just as a regular, run of the mill philosopher, who thinks too many thoughts and doesn't quite have the brains to deal with them, I have searched for inspiration from many sources. I was a devout Christian in my early to mid teens, belonging to Swedenborg, or the Church of the New Jerusalem, which was in a day to day way was very similar to most Protestant churches, though it did have some quirky beliefs about the end of the world and the book of Revelations. Anyway, I believed that I would have a place in the Kingdom of Heaven, that all that I suffered at the hands of bullies and unrequited lovers would be a burden I would bear. Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. Not that I was massively bullied. I kept quiet, but sometimes its the quiet ones who get the attention. I went to church to alleviate the guilt I had about lust for girls, hatred towards the bullies and the natural teenaged tendency towards masturbation. So I was spoonfed a lot of crap there, but some of it was worth remebering, like "Do unto other as you would have them do unto you" and "love thy neighbour".

Then for a few years, I was directionless. The questioning nature took a while to develop. With music came a desire to know where the music came from. As a big fan of the Beatles, I knew one day that I would try marijuana and see if it really did open something up for me, but I knew that I would never try anything else, because of the inherent dangers.

Then university, and I was introduced to Marilyn Manson, and theories that all he wrote for the AntiChrist Superstar was based on his own interpretation of Frederick Neitzche's work, "Thus Spake Zarathustra"* The theories go that there is no God, that religion makes us submissive because religious teachings prohibit basic human desires and needs. The human that realises this, and casts aside all restrictions will achieve the most, will form their own rules and morals and will be more motivated in all they do, since not suffering from a guilt of achieving. He says that no person can be the "Uberman" (superman) since it would be in the Uberman's nature to constantly question what can be done to improve himself and ultimately fall ill of his own desire to be reach the unachievable perfect form. And so the next contender for the Uberman would stand up. Zarathustra was a character in Neitzche's book that he used to convey his ideas. Manson's album tells the story of a personal evolution of the person to the Uberman and beyond to the point of failing and decay. I've heard that Bowie's early album "The Rise and Fall of Ziggy Stardust..." tells a very similar story. Maybe I should listen sometime.

*"Thus Spake Zarathustra" is also a piece of orchestral music used for "2001: A Space Odyssey" and Rick Flair's entrance music in the WWE. I'm proud of my shallow side as much as my deep! Also I'd like to point out that its been a while since I've listened to the Manson album, and I only read the first ½ of "Thus Spake Zarathustra"

Anyway, I hated Marilyn's association with Satanism, although he says in his autobio that his membership to the Church of Satan was always tongue in cheek. He agreed a lot with what Anton Lavey said. He just really didn't agree with involving Satan in it all.

(BTW, Marijuana didn't open any gateways, but it didn't stop me from enjoying it for a few year. I quit 2 years ago because I realised that I could enjoy live just as much without. And just as I promised myself in my early teens, I never did touch anything else. I'm not telling you to take drugs, or not take drugs, just make your choice and don't bother us about it).

Tool and curiosity got me interested in the occult and that regular religions don't hold all the answers and that wicca/eastern/ancient wisdoms have some answers. But I'm just a little too tired of looking for answers and a little jaded and cynical because of when my past beliefs didn't work. Hell, I read Fortean Times magazine which often tells stories of paranormal phenomenon with no proper opinion or pre-conceived presumtions about the topics. Bill Hicks, in his comedy, preaches about one god loving us all and being completely benign in nature and completely unlike any of the popular religious models. I suppose he might be right.

My advise to all is, don't hold an opinion. Don't overanalyse why you're here. Don't care if there is a God or not. I'd bet that there is, but it's nature is a complete mystery and those who think they have the answer are no different to the one on the other soap-box, shouting his opinion. And that goes for all religious believers, from the Pope to the Pakistani lad I hang out with at work who goes to the local Mosque.

In all this drivel, I hope that its clear that I don't believe any of what I have in the past, but they've all helped me form a way to live my life, and for that I am grateful. The only way we can know the truth is to die, and I'm having to much fun living my life to die before my time.

You may ask "how can you take any lyrics by Tool seriously, since they often refer to mysticism?" My answer is this: Let the band hold their beliefs. What's to say they are their beliefs or even their opinions, they maybe just stating a point, a possibility in an ocean of opinions? How do you know they're not waving a red herring under your nose? Surely you remember the bizarre and completely fictional religion they subscribed to at the start of their career. "Larinxology" or something, its been a while since I looked it up. Maynard and the band know how to put their tongue in their cheeks, for sure.

I think some of their most sincere and heart-felt lyrics are in Parabola (told you there was some relevence). At 2.53 in to the song "Spinning, weaving round each new experience". Could this be a reference to keep yourself open to ideas and spin and weave who you are out of what is presented to you. How can you do this if your opinions are so strongly held that they cannot be broken down to replace another possibility that presents itself as you journey through life? Its a song of evolution, but it holds onto one fact: We are mortal in this life and our mortal body is the (obvious) evidence of this, but "we are eternal, all this pain is an illusion" (That last line is obviously one of many nods to Bill Hicks, his "Positive news story about drugs" sketch and Bill's belief that he experienced the love of god once, while on magic mushrooms). The lyrics to this song never mention anything about there being a God, but it is positive, saying that there is something after.

A note on my user name: I chose "Incomplete" because all that I know until the day I die is irrelevant to what I will know when I die. I will always be incomplete as a mortal and that is the nature of all of us until we know the truths that have perplexed mankind since we learnt how to ask "Why are we here?" Don't rush to death. Just look forward to knowing the meaning of life, the universe and everything when we die, and don't be afraid of dying.

Have fun living, y'all

David Smith
03.23 16th Dec 2002
North of England.
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Old 12-16-2002, 02:37 AM   #2
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Yeah, I know what you mean...

I think we, as individuals, are a prototype of sorts. We believe in something, then take away experiences away from those beliefs, and build on them, then move to a new belief.

Like I read somewhere, that TOOL use a 'temporary belief system', where they sort of... form their own beliefs from other sources, I guess.

I think, that we should make the most of the time we have, be happy, be positive, never give up, and just enjoy the ride that is mortality.

~Spiral~Out~
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Old 12-16-2002, 10:41 AM   #3
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Additional thought:

Let me paraphrase Bill Hicks

There is a point .... the world is like a rida at an amusement park and when you choose to go on it, you think its real, 'cause that's how powerful our minds are. And the ride goes up and down and round and round. It has thrills and chills and its very brightly coloured and its very loud. And its fun, for a while. Some people have been on the ride for a long time and they begin to question "Is this real? Or is this just a ride?" And other people have remembered and they come back to us and they say, "Hey, don't worry, don't be afraid, ever, because this is just a ride." And we kill those people! .... Its just a ridfe, but yet we always kill those good guys who thry and tell us that. You ever notice that? And let the demons run amock. But it doesn't matter because its just a ride and we can change it any time we want. Its only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings of money, a choice, right now between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your door, buy guns, close yourself off. The eys of love instead see all of us as one....

Fair point, methinks

Dave Smith
18.56 16th Dec 2002
North of England.
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Old 12-16-2002, 10:54 AM   #4
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I think that as long as people are comfortable with who they [are] and what they beleive [in]. There shouldnt be that [judgement] of right and wrong. I have not been to church in quite a while, Ocassionally ill go to watch my younger sister perform in a x-mas pageant or an easter pageant. But, i dont attend simply for the fact that hypocricy runs [Amock?] in there. Im not saying I haven't been/Am not a hypocrit; however, i feel an anger inside me when i see people standing up, yelling and hollaring about amen this praise the lord that..in front of [everyone] when the previous night they are baning prostitues, doing drugs, or just in general getting fucked up. How can someone with a conscence{yah i fuct that w3rd up} do that? anyways just my little rant.

btw that first post reminded me of a qoute
"Religion is the opium of the masses, how high are you?"
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Old 12-17-2002, 08:54 PM   #5
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just wondering...

What made you forsake Christianity by the way? Did you just get to the age where you felt you couldn't 'buy it' anymore or something? I'd be interested to know...
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Old 12-18-2002, 09:16 PM   #6
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Falling out

For me, when i started to lose faith (disbelieve?), i looked back and just became AMAZED at how far "in" i had gotten myself. There were nights where i was so worried that if i forgot to pray, those for whom i prayed would have something bad befall them. It was a constant mental torment, but i suppose in a way it's comforting to think that "the big guy upstairs" is looking after you. Please, everyone who is reading this thread, if you've gone through similar things, realize how IMPORTANT a shift in faith is for you. It's definitely not important on the grander scale of things...but to shift perspective like that....shit.....If i could have seen myself (as i am now) when i was 10 or 11, i would've been convinced that my path would lead straight to "hell". I'm still interested when people talk about the evolution of their beliefs over time. Don't be afraid to think outside the box!
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Old 12-18-2002, 11:05 PM   #7
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don't sweat the details

I've never been a devout Chritsian, or a total skeptic. I'd always held a basic idea that there is a God and something after this, that's as far as I'd gotten.
Recently I've been hanging out with some older guys that have families and are very much Christiian guys. Some they get together on Wednesday nights and talk about God and morality and what makes us behave the way we do, stuff like that. Sometimes it's a lot to wrap an uncertain head around, but it's cool. Not preachy.
They are happy with their lives. Content. Not that they're not still working on thier marraiges and trying to figure out parenthood, but that they are where they want to be and understand what's important and what not to shit bricks about.
I wouldn't say that I have faith now, but that I have concluded that there is a God and he does have a hand in things if you let him, but I haven't yet. I feel better about all that stuff.

At this point, I'm satisfied not knowing where I'll be in 2 years and not being sure about 'what it all means' because I know that being happy is being ok with where you are - nothing more. I want a family and will have one some day, I have enough faith to be confident in that. That is all I need to know.

In the meantime, I will try to meet people I can share with and do things that help people.

Open minded is great, open hearted is even better.
If you see someone with a problem your mind can deduce that he needs HELP.
Your heart will know that he needs YOUR HELP.

Helping people in this world can keep you busy for a long, long time, and that's a goldmine for a positivity-hungry soul.

I had a more concise point to make when I started, but it's gone. I guess it's this:

It matters why we're here, but it matters a lot more what we do while we're here. Make friendships, teach what you know, understand that failing to help is the same as hurting. If you're bored, it's because you've got nothing to nurture. We are here to grow and to help others do the same.
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Old 12-20-2002, 01:04 PM   #8
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Well, I'm glad I started this little topic. In reply, when did I loose religion? I know when I stopped going to church, and that was when I got a newspaper delivery round on a Sunday morning! It was a gradual change, and the catalyst was less feeling like a geek in school. I was never in the in-crowd, but I found that I meshed with the out-crowd and the desire to have a friend and confidant in God left, and in its place, there was a bit of questioning. I suppose I reached the age when I stopped buying it, just as Little Carlos said.

This topic has evolved into a discussion about if there is a God, and that's totally cool. I've been discussing it with a Muslim and a Christian friend at work, just to hear their point of view, and its funny how they both say that religion is very personal, and the beliefs that you hold are usually in certain ways different to what their religion states. My fiance is a Christian, and if she really did follow the Catholic Dogma she was brought up with, she would have a problem with sex and condoms and things. She is intelligent and can form her own opinions and doesn't need God to tell her that sex for any other reason than procreation is sinful. She doesn't even have a problem that I'm bisexual, just so long as I'm faithful to her exclusively, and I will be forever. If she looked at Catholicism and what it stands for, she would probably have a problem with it. Incidentally, if I did hold a belief in God, it would be entirely spiritual, and the concept of the Son of God wouldn't enter into it. God is God, not Jesus. So if I am at peace with my maker without giving a name, then I'm happy to wait til I meet him before I form any opinions.

I'll check this post and add to it when there is something worth adding to, but wait for my next thread, "The Bible Code: Are you shit scared yet?"

David Smith
21.20 20th Dec 2002
North of England
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Old 12-26-2002, 10:16 PM   #9
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Re: Why must we obsess over the meaning of live?

What is Truth? What is real? How does one know?

If I told you that all the answer where inside yourself, would be belief me? More importantly, would you go looking for them?

How? Where? When?
Inside, go.


The one thing that drawn me to Zen and Buddism, is they basically say "this may or may not be true. The only way to find out, is to walk the path"... or in modern paralance, Morpheus saying to Neo "I can only show you the door, you must walk though it".

I have been searching, for years. For something out there, that would save me, that would love me... that would tell me everything thing is alright, to show me the truth. The truth, is that I had all that (and very much more), inside.

Opening my eyes was scaring. They are still have shut, I must pry them open.

I would suggest starting with Jung and Buddism. Study, learn and mostly importantly EXPEIRENCE them... then decide if they off a valid path.

There are thousands of religions out there, and at the heart (if you can wade though the dogma) it speaks of the Truth. But the truth can not be read, or understood. It can only be expeirenced.

Let go. If you remove yourself from yourself. Who are you? Does he know the Truth?
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Old 12-26-2002, 10:34 PM   #10
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rel != spir

Religion is not equal to Spirtuality.

Say each "religion" has one grain of truth in it. If it is truth, would not all major religions acknowlege it? How could they not. Look at what they all teach... everything you see, ask

Is this true? Is this even real?

who am i? am I sure?

What is gravity? Is it really true, because they print it in books? How can you prove to yourself that gravity or the "concept" of gravity exists? Prove to yourself that it is real... really truth, so you know without question it is true.

What do you see in nature? Male, female... happiness, sadness. Life, Death. How could God be "almighty" and all good, if he is everywhere and everything? Would not death and sorrow be a part of God, if he was everywhere? If there was just God, would he/her/it be "all good"? How could you tell the differance between good and bad, if bad did not exist? How do you tell if there is "space" in your apartment, if the walls did not exist?

How could one live without death, or die without life?


What if, say, all beliefs where false? Say anything you could put into words was a complete and utter lie? What then, what could you believe in?


What does "there is no spoon" REALLY mean?


and no, you won't find these answers on the internet, or from your teachers or from the preist in church. There is only one place to find them.
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