A collection of Letters pertaining to the music industry.
Something I wrote a while back concerning the music industry's view of all-glitter + no talent = success.
The music industry is in a sad state: boy bands reign supreme, and the only people who share the spotlight are the pop princesses, divas, whatever.
This has been brought on by a number of things, the biggest of which being pop music. Since its rise in the 60's and 70's with the Beatles, pop music has been a conquering force, slaughtering all other types of music that get in its way.
Pop music plays on the emotions of the public, using catchy hooks and phat beats to catch the attention of the audience, then wowing them with beautiful people, exotic locales, and Britney Spears' big breasts. This is a far cry from other types of music, in which the members have long hair, bathe infrequently, and generally use naughty words in their lyrics.
For 99% of pop stars, their role in the writing/recording process is minimal: sing the songs and leave. Very few of these artists actually write their own music, and even less write their own lyrics. Credit must be given to Janet Jackson for trying, however, as she tells her writers what the song should be about and they convert her words in lyrics.
Why does the spotlight not shine on real musicians instead? Bands like TOOL, who do not crave the spotlight, the media, or the public in general, have the most talent and are appreciated the least. The industry must run on some type of sliding scale: at one end, the pop end, the least talented performers being popular and made millionaires instantly, while at the other end, the real end, bands like Nine Inch Nails are left with a much more treacherous path to traverse. One hit song at the pop end instantly launches the pop artist into a world of fame, fortune, and glamour, where he or she will stay until finally being spit out the bottom of the porn industry, leaving nothing but some once-popular songs and a risque video series. At the real end, however, most bands silently fade away, leaving a lasting legacy on the world.
Maybe it will start off some of you on your own threads...
seems like our culture praises simplicity in its form. To have a kind of music which requires critical thought is one that requires expenditure of energy and dedication of attention. These are not common traits in our culture if anything it is something which is opposed. Think about the amount of time we as fans of Tool have devoted to listening, understanding, and questioning our music. This is time most people would rather not spend...its important for them to get the most attention from others around them so having music that draws the attention away fromthemselves is viewed as a negative thing. If a song forces them to think or feel then thats when its really a problem.
So generally so long as a song sounds-like something that they were told was good they will like it. Simple, easy to understand lyrics, catchy beat with even bass on the quarter notes, easy to dance to...= instant hit until it gets determined that its annoying then a slightly different variant is brought out which may even include remixes of the same song.
Seems like there is such a demand to be ego-centric and such a demand to maintain small talk-relationships that are polite and non intrusive that there are no REAL exchanges of ideas anymore...no one allows another to touch them and effect them they are all too busy securing their individual space. Pop music gives them something that they can easily share without giving too much of themselves out (what real qualities/emotions can you determine from a person that listens to pop) so it becomes the perfect medium for our society...and has an added bonus of making fast easily marketable (palatable) materials all of which fit within the ever shortening attention span of our people.
Thanks for breaking the ice here...hopefully others will begin posting some interesting literary works, poetry, or personal lyrics to share.
Originally posted by ShackledEidolon So generally so long as a song sounds-like something that they were told was good they will like it.
and generally, if the artist had a successful debut album (such as ugh..britney spears or christina aguilera), they can actually work on their own albums, produce something with very little substance, and the public will eat it up.
come to think of it, didn't tool co-produce lateralus with Timbaland and the Neptunes? :P
...come to think about it They are Sell Outs arent they...and im their reason to sell out buying all their products and DVDs. Yup I knew thats why my favorite song was Hooker with a Penis I love talking about selling out and feeling better then the band that I caused to sell out
ok now that I've finished playing around there...it does seem kind of sad that a group should have to play such a limited part in the creation of " their music " I really don't see the point to even putting your name on it at all...I guess aside from the fame and money...mmmm money...
I always thought it was interesting during the big boy band phase when you'd hear pre-teen girls talking about the groups. Backstreet Boys and Nsync had their following and then there was the black sheep 98°..."oww their ugly...and their music sucks" just blew my mind...thats what they get though I guess for almost being different then the others...I mean come on whats wrong with numbers! Theres only 2 of em its not even like its a hard word...maybe it was the degree sign that threw em...should have just stuck with the formula...take all that however you will
The whole pop music thing is a subject i feel very strongly against. It's all over the T.V and radio no matter where you go so i simply gave them up. As soon as a record label finds a 19 year old blonde with nice tits, they get into the top of the charts in a matter of days. The more i think about it the more it pisses me off.
But the worst part of all of this is then people actually like this crap. What i find amusing though is how these people can seem absolulty devoted to a pop artist. They'll buy the CD the ticket the t-shirt, the bag, the pencil case, the lamp shade, the condoms, the kitchen knives, the deoderant, the movie where they tried to act and have a room wallpapered in posters of the talentless artist of their choice (may have exagerated slightly). but in a few months have to go out and do all this again for a different artist with bigger tits or a better drum machine or something like that.
One more thing. Music is supposed to be a means of expression. It's a way to show and share with other people how you feel or felt at a time in your life and hopefully they react in their own way to this. If your not writing the songs your singing/playing, whats the fucking point?? As soon as you do that you have soiled what people refer to as music because the songs will be hollow, a bunch of ranting bullshit with no meaning, no emotion and no vision.
Well im off now
P.S please ignore the parts where i referred to pop singers as 'artists'.
Pop isn't the only problem with the Music Industry today.
Well it's no question, pop sucks. But what about all of those other crappy music genres out there plaugeing the music industry. Look at new metal. It's just as un-origonal as pop is. I would listen to the radio and the only thing that these pathetic new-metal bands can sing about is how crappy their poor lives are. It's O.K. when you write just a song or two about that topic, but when you write album after album and not stray from it, it tends to get really old really quick. Look at these bands like Korn, Staind, Slipknot, Nickleback, Linkin Park, Papa Roach and about a million others that just recycle whats been done about a million times before. Thats why bands like Tool are so important. No two of their songs are very similar and no two of their albums are similar. So keep in mind that pop isn't the only thing wrong with the music industry today. New-metal, rap, and country music rank right up there with it.
um is this where i can shoot, kill, slaughter, punch, kick, piss on, shit on, grapple and rip at the sight of the infectious disease that is killing the music industry, the disease is called popaloadofshit musicshitty, tho the abbreviated is pop music.
todays music industry is a burning fucking building, and the element that is fuelling the master fire is commercialism. a gunboat as it is, finding its way into every square inch of the globe. it seems as tho that it is a necessity for the greater population.
im suffering, everyday, endless frustration and anger. because every time i used to listen to mainstream radio or watch channel v (Australia’s version of mtv, tho not that commercial yet, its travelling in the right direction however), all that would travel through my conical would either be a superficial poptart, or a group of snag (sensitive new age guy) wannabe's attempting to communicate with there petty fans through intimate glances and cliche rhymes (i wanna love you, oh baby and now now baby, just to name a few). when i see or hear this i just sink, and ponder on how fucking sad these people are.
its looking as tho its hasn’t even hit its peak here in australia, with arthritic events as 'rumba' (australian pop tour) and shopping mall shows it is a well fuelled fire at that.
we have a few saviours, tho only 1 seems to shine from the small pack, they shine with values, persistent vision and intelligence when writing and performing music.
there vision and passion for music can only lead upwards, tho its only 4 voices that exercise it. its not enough when you are up against a mass of robot fame junkie's. and it just reinforces Tool's and our vision for music when we all think positive. tho in times like these its difficult.
it is of the utmost importance that tool continuing with performing and writing of music. Tool remain our only vehicle for a decent music sheet.
it sincerely depresses me when i think back to 94 - 99, tools new release aenima, with other releases from rage, soundgarden and the tea party, and then i think about recent times, there is nothing, im sure there is quite alot of great music being written, tho due to this fucked up disease, we are cut short of a ride, an important ride at that.
my advice is to anyone listening to mainstream radio, get off it now, look for an underground station, and look into the darker room.
what starts well must end well,
thats my say,
One thing I've noticed, is that not since Nirvana has the world of music made a dramatic shift. For a while, there was a change in direction every decade or so. There hasn't been one for a while. Unless of course the directional shift was towards more and more crap... or was rave music the shift? yeesh...
__________________ Fire lives only to consume.
Darkness lives only to consume.
If you wish to live, then die.
Originally posted by shade13 One thing I've noticed, is that not since Nirvana has the world of music made a dramatic shift. For a while, there was a change in direction every decade or so. There hasn't been one for a while. Unless of course the directional shift was towards more and more crap... or was rave music the shift? yeesh...
i actually think that the music shift of now will be everything becoming more separated. eg while all the pop bullshit is coming out we also have bands like cradle of filth getting more and more FANBASED attention. and while boybands can come on the scene and be famous with no talent a similar thing is happening now with punk.
I think we did see somewhat of a shift when rap metal became all the rage. Once again, this type of music was pioneered by great bands, like 311, even rage against the machine. then limp bizkit took over and guess what? it all went to shit. Nothing at all against wes borland, who had the balls to leave when LB was at the top of the game. His new band, Eat The Day, will most likely be amazing. But back to the subject at hand. You can feel the vibe of this rap metal style still hanging around after its all but over. Guitar pop is groovier, heavier bands are groovier, and hip-hop has even picked up guitars now and then.
I can't stand it when people classify music and put it into categories. But what I can't stand more are people who claim to be open but then dis entire genres Why even acknowledge that there are genres? Why say rap sucks as much as nu metal when there ARE a small portion of people classified in these genres who ARE doing good things? Have you heard Cee-lo's album? Outkast's? The new Roots album? All of these guys are in the hip-hop world and are talking about asension, astral projection, whats real, etc. I just can't see why people would dis something they know little about.
Re: Pop isn't the only problem with the Music Industry today.
Originally posted by paper_head Look at these bands like Korn, Staind, Slipknot, Nickleback, Linkin Park, Papa Roach and about a million others that just recycle whats been done about a million times before.
I think Korn was one of the ones that started it. The rest copied.
In my government class in school the term "mass public" is used to represent the uninformed complacent majority of people in our country. America is a country of majorities; MTV exists solely because it entertains the mass public, the majority of Americans who live off of human instinct vs. human reason. The mass public sees an attractive person and buys into them; they do not look through life for intellectual material but instead live off of simple instinct. One must admit that it is difficult to look at a beautiful person and see through them; to dismiss them because they lack a brain, because our animal instincs want us to mate. It is alot easier to dismiss an ugly person without a personality. We must place reason above instinct.
The second level of public is the informed public, people at a more aware level of consciousness but also people who don't do much with it. The highest level is the opinion maker; Tool is an opinion maker for the informed public while the rhetorical bureaucratic politicians that control all of us only represent the mindless mass public who believe what politicians say only because they do not undertand what they say. The informed public finds it difficult to agree with our government because our government doesn't truly represent us, it represents the majority.
I think that when Maynard asks us to continue and exceed the legacy of Tool, he is asking us to become opinion makers, to fulfill our need as the informed public to "spiral out" and go a step higher, and to inspire people to create informed people out of the herd of mindless sheep we know as the mass public.
I find it odd to say that MTV entertains the mass public because I don't know a single person it entertains. The only good thing I saw on it was a commercial for ( ) and a 20 (or maybe 10) minute beck concert that they actually managed to screw up.
And hey I have an idea, lets state something extremely obvious.
Let me assure you guys, music is in no way a problem right now. As a matter of fact it's getting great now. Pop stars are going way down and rock is being revived by the strokes and the white stripes and the hives. Things are changing right now and definitely for the better. As pitchfork media said, there's no such thing as a bad year for music. 2001 was considered a terrible year for music, but man, a couple of the albums from that year are some of the best I've ever heard.
I think KoRn started it after they sucked and decided that that suck would continue. My god it's been 5 albums right? He said he'd cheer up (or at least make something a little more orriginal than the first album) at the end of the album, but damnit, that doesn't sell. Please don't try to give KoRn any credit that would make them seem in any way "inventive." I mean god, the best song on that album was a song about how he was made fun of as a little boy.
And I can't say much for popular rap, except that Outkast's Stankonia really isn't that bad. And rap in general really isn't that bad. Whoever thinks that hasn't heard much Public Enemy or Kool Keith (man it's really odd that he'd choose that name when he's so not mainstream. Really everyone download Blue Flowers Revisited and Technical Difficulties right now. If that doesn't change your idea about rap then you're just a bastard).
The music industry is doing fucking great. I mean lets look at some of the releases this year: ( ), Sea Change, Source Tags & Codes, Yoshimi Battles The Pink Robots, Murray Street, Playthroughs, and the absolutely fucking essential re-release of Slanted & Enchanted (if only the nirvana album had a live show, all of nevermind, plus a few ep's worth of material on two disks...). If you're worried about the music industry you're not looking hard enough for good music.
I used to think that the music world needed some revival but let me assure you that it doesn't. I remember thinking, man The Fragile's going to change the whole scene, and it was great but nothing happened. One year later, man Kid A's going to change the whole world of music. It's one of the best albums of all time, but nope, nothing happened. Then one year later, Lateralus is going to change the world, the mass media is going to be saved from crappy nu metal by this incredibly important album. Guess what, the world of music just got worse with that album. I'm not saying it's bad, but I'm saying that... well Hoobostank says Tool influences them. It's odd that rock revival is what's actually changing the world right now. But you know what, all three of those years were amazing years for music. Three of my absolute favorite albums have come out in those three years.
And you know what I've noticed. Everyone on this board is just saying how tool are the saviors of the music industry when they're not focusing on anything else. I'm fine with the current state of music.
And I think you need to check your numbers. First of all, what do you think Pop music is? You mentioned The Beatles. The Beatles wrote all of their songs. And The Beatles are one of the best bands ever. Pink Floyd was pcp, they wrote all of their songs. The Beach Boys are pop, Brian Wilson wrote all of Pet Sounds. The Flaming Lips, Beck, Bjork, The Microphones, , all of them are pop, and all of them write all of their songs. True, a lot of my favorite bands are appreciated least, but I wouldn't want high school kids saying "oh man, did you hear the new Circulatory System album. Man it's phat." I know some of you have this utopian vision that if only your favorite bands were the most popular bands in the world (oh, bythe way, tool is one of the most popular bands in the world right now. If you think that tool and radiohead are not popular then you are in 8th grade). but let me tell you about a band, and I'm not sure if you guys are familiar with them, that came from an indie scene, became popular, but ultimately fucked up the music scene more than helped it. They're called Nirvana. They made great music. Some of the greatest music in the world, but I'm sorry, today a whole lot of popular bands just rip them off after watering down everything that made them great. I assure you guys, post rock would not work well if it became the most popular thing in the world.
Trust me, it's not extremely important for tool to keep writing. Music is going to continue to produce some of the greatest stuff you've ever heard. Tool are not the saviors of music, because music doesn't need to be saved.
And Paraflux, you should feel ashamed that you know that information on Limp Bizkit.
(Funniest thing any of you said: "Pioneered by great bands, like 311")
I'm all for people listening to what makes them tick, whether the clock's in the pop scene, or the classical scene, or any inbetween-- delve away. Who cares. So long as I can't hear it, heh heh heh.
This post may be off the porch for this thread, but the thought process started here.
I have a little trouble "doing things for Maynard". I listen to Tool because the music they create speaks to me (hey kids, isn't that why we listen to music in the first place), and a step further, lyrically contains messages that cause that spark occur inside when I listen to it-- Yeah baby, this is the stuff.
"Think for yourself" speaks volumes to me when I'm in that particular place, but I was thinking (ha, ha) that some of us cling to Tool because they ACTUALLY SAY THINGS OF THAT SORT-- WOW, HOW REFRESHING-- and yet... if they're telling us to think for ourselves, clinging to Tool mantras is so, like, un-Tool.
Originally posted by Quiddity I'm all for people listening to what makes them tick, whether the clock's in the pop scene, or the classical scene, or any inbetween-- delve away. Who cares. So long as I can't hear it, heh heh heh.
i could not agree more. do what you will, just leave me out of it.
I keep thinking and hoping that the music industry will put out a lot of good bands and things will change so that radio is actually good, and I like everything on it. However, I keep reminding myself that I kind of enjoy the fact that the music I really enjoy isn't mainstream. In a conversation with Shackled Eideon, he exposed a light that I'm still nursing, and trying to fully understand. He said that the music that we enjoy so much is something we have to search out and find, and the messages we attain from those songs we love to be stimulated by are deep rooted within the music. Now if that same message was instilled in simpler music, or if the music was "dumbed down" so that simpler minds could acquire the same enlightenment that we work so hard to find ourselves, then that same message gets de-valued and we end up being let down.
So then I think about the music industry again. Then I think about bands like Dredg, and Tool, and so many other GREAT bands that WERE given the opportunity to radiate (I'm not going to say shine, because they're much more subtle than that) and I have ::::shudder shudder:::: the music industry to thank for that.
So I think radio's ALWAYS going to take a backseat. At least in my car. And I wouldn't want it any other way. The only reason radio and television exist is to sell things. Same with the "recording industry". They live to sell things. So if I come across a local band that just fucking ROCKS, I'm going to support them in getting their art around, whether it be signed or not, it's gonna be good.
The "industry" will follow what makes them the money...
The "artists" will please themselves, and by doing so, please enough people that the industry will see them as a "product"...
I would wonder where you are and your age. In 1994 I witnessed a beautiful series of moments when 311 came to play at LSU in Baton Rouge. Nothing but freaks in the crowds, 500+ kids, the first album was dope and second one was doper live. I can't tell you enough how much P-Nute has influenced me as a bassist, and how much in awe I used to be before I developed my own stage presence of his command over the low end. He does it playfully, but with complete control of the hard licks he pulls off. Plus the music was fresh and new at the time, when all that was around were Nirvana ripoffs. With a liking for hip-hop grooves early on in my life, it was natural for rock and rap to come together, I just didnt see it till after the fact. Anyway, that was a long time ago. And all they have been talking about since day 1 is evolution, thinking positive, with crowley-esque remarks and P-Nut has the "Do what thou wilt..." tattooed on his leg. The third album is not that great but the rest of them are, especially Grassroots and Transistor.
everyone knows that a lot of pop musicians record covers. someone was saying earlier about how pop music is so accessible for the great unwashed because it's simple and people can grasp it straightaway. it's even better when people already know the song!
here's another sad thought: my uncle has devoted most of his life to being a musician. he is now 44 years old. he had a semi-successful band back in the mid-80s - featuring chris haskett of rollins band fame - but is now just playing the pub circuit here in england. whenever he tries to get himself booked into a venue, they always ask him if he's a covers or an originals artist. he tells him he's an originals, and they say they're not interested. the promoters tell him that people want to come to a gig and hear songs they know.
Well, All i have to say is that there are great artiist in every genre, but somebody alwayas comes out of said genre and fucks it up. Someone will always Discredit a genra. Look what limp Bizket did to Rock . < and by rock i mean alternative, NU- metal, rap-rock,> They had some decint bands coming from that area of music. Than Limp Bizket comes along and screws it up. So many people lost faith in that area of music because of one shitty band. It happens everywhere. just look for it. Sorry about the spelling
__________________ One thing I an't is a Saint without a sin.
«Pain Fetish inside you.»
«Made by Sex.»
I'm from austin. It's one of the best places to live as a music fan. Everyone comes here. I mean in the past month I've seen about 5 concerts. Paraflux, I don't think I can really take you seriously since you say "dope" and complain about how commercial the rock industry is. Oh yeah, and you like rap rock.
Rap rock is one of the worst ideas ever. It's not for music, it's clearly for making money. Hey look, raps making a lot of money, metal is making a lot of money, if we combine them, we'll be making shit loads of money. Not to say either rap or rock are bad. Rap's fucking great. Though I like rock more. Tool doesn't seem to fit into rock for me. Here's how I think of it:
Velvet Underground- ROCKED
Led Zepplin- Rocked
KoRn- didn't ever come close to rockin
The Strokes- say what you will, they rock
The Hives- Once again
The Vines- fucking suck
Sigur Ros' last 5 minutes of the pop song- doesn't rock
I think that rock music is just something for you to rock to. Emotion and rawness don't come with rockin.
And MyOptika, I don't find that sad. I'd love to have your uncles life, and I know a bunch of musicians that'd love to still be traveling the world and playing music. He could just say covers, play a cover, then for the rest of the night play orriginals. Or fuck with them and play a cover completely differently (ex: Yo La Tengo's version of Little Honda).
And people, please stop bashing Pop. It's great. To clarify, Britney Spears = CRAP. The Beatles= GREAT. I mean, if you guys are listening to tool so much, and the point is to achieve happiness and salvation, then where does pop music not fit into that? I feel like I've found my footing in life, and pop music is a big part of it. And pop music is a big means of self expression. Look at the beatles, and the microphones (the glow, donwload, now). Great pop music comes out a lot, but not really on MTV. At least you guys aren't like that guy who posted somewhere on the tour section:
Tonight tool is comming to KILL RAP! or some shit like that.
And how come everyone is just saying the same thing:
Limp Bizkit is crap, MTV is crap, therefore all music is crap, except tool, who is here to change our lives. Please, seek out other music, or sites to find that music. Please, stop thinking that Alt. Rock is actually an alternative. And please, stop bashing pop music.
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I would/could enjoy any of that horror that they call "music". (I have to admit how humerous I find it when they call it a 'band' even though NONE of them play instruments)... but really, I'm not opposed to their existance. I'm glad there is Brittney Spears out there to distract the ignorant populous. Do you want those Pre-Teen girls to listen to TooL? Do you want to see the "Hush" video played on MTV's Total Request Live? I dunno... I really don't. It would just seem sad to me. Those people don't listen to music as an inspriation, as a platform to better themselves. They don't listen to music as a part of their life, with the intensity and attention as they should. They listen to it with their friends at clubs trying to pick up members of the opposite sex and wearing too tight of clothing. I personally would not want TooL or Dream Theatre or other great bands being played for those people to take for granted. They take their music for granted, they know that their Limp Bizkit and Sum 41 and whatever else is out there will always be there, with some new "Hot" replacement around the corner, and it keeps them secure and I would like for them to stay that way. It's sad for them... but the way it must be.
Originally posted by J1516 The Strokes- say what you will, they rock
The Vines- fucking suck
You see: this is the beauty of it. I actually think the opposite to you on that. :)
And MyOptika, I don't find that sad. I'd love to have your uncles life, and I know a bunch of musicians that'd love to still be traveling the world and playing music. He could just say covers, play a cover, then for the rest of the night play orriginals. Or fuck with them and play a cover completely differently (ex: Yo La Tengo's version of Little Honda).
He does actually get quite sneaky when playing gigs now. He does things like that.
I'm actually going down the same route as him. I won't post links to mp3s and suchlike, because this isn't a board for spamming. If anyone's interested in hearing some unfinished music, then send me a PM (you can do that here, right?)
And people, please stop bashing Pop. It's great. To clarify, Britney Spears = CRAP. The Beatles= GREAT. I mean, if you guys are listening to tool so much, and the point is to achieve happiness and salvation, then where does pop music not fit into that? I feel like I've found my footing in life, and pop music is a big part of it. And pop music is a big means of self expression. Look at the beatles, and the microphones (the glow, donwload, now). Great pop music comes out a lot, but not really on MTV.
I totally agree with you. I'm a big fan of Weezer (say what you will), and I consider them pop music. Pop music does have its place. I respect any music which is written by an artist with a genuine passion for it, be it pop, rock, dance, anything. What I don't respect is people just writing music to make money. That is what the true meaning of selling-out is, no matter what Tool say ;)
Yes, pop music does have its place. I happen to like some pop music <mostly older pop>. I think you should listen to whatever makes you happy and whatever you connect With.
The point to alot of music, i just cant see, and i know thats because I dont connect with it on a personal level. Hopefuly some one else will.
__________________ One thing I an't is a Saint without a sin.
«Pain Fetish inside you.»
«Made by Sex.»
I find it hard to think that I can't be taken seriously because I utilize the term "dope." I have used it for years, and will continue to do so. Tool is dope. Korn's first album had amazing potential, but they failed to exit the stupidity of whining. Anyway, whatever. Rap rock was not a bad idea. What makes an idea bad? the ones who fuck it up, like limp bizkit, Korn, etc. they are not dope.
and I just can't understand why people think 3 chord bands are geniouses. maybe I just dont give it enough of a chance, but no thanks, you can have the strokes.
I agree with quiddidy, and j1516
Tool is a great band and one of the best today, but I dont think it's right to put others down for not liking tool(even though I don't understand why) Tool is amazing because they have such a huge fan base and they have never done an MTV video award show (and the like), they just let the music speak for itself. they have to be popular among the masses, or they would not have been around for 10+ years.
Thank you tool for writing some of the best music I have ever had the privelage to listen to.
__________________ be the change you wish to see in the world.
Well, we've all seem to kind of come to a consensus... although I'm not entirely sure what it is.
Pop music, as a genre, has some shining bright spots, but most of them aren't shining enough to the general public because they haven't been deemed as "cute" enough.
I'm talking about Phantom Planet, Greenwheel, Injected (although they're a little more rock), EchoBrain, Abandoned Pools, Flickerstick (I know, they were on vh1 forever, but they're CD still kicks ass).
I don't think it's a problem with there being no good bands, I think it's a problem with selling an image. If you look at Britney Spears, or Pristina Gaguilara, or Backstreet Boys, or whomever (even Faith Hill and all those little country prisses and young 'supergroups') you'll find that their fans rarely SAY they're music is good. No one sells music based on music anymore. Pink Floyd was the last band to really do that I think. (before tool) Correction: no one sells music based on music anymore and gets PAID for it like they deserve.
And I'll go on the record and say that most first albums by the "original" nu-metal bands like Korn, Staind, and Limp Bizkit were VERY good, until they got played to DEATH, and then Fred buckled under to money and sold out, and took Staind with him.
But now, all that whining is getting OLD. VERY old. It's not really BAD, it's just hearing the same shit OVER and OVER. I don't think music is killing music, I think corporate music is killing music. If you look at most major label bands, they're getting suckier and suckier as the days go by.
Weezer's albums are getting worse (and Rivers whines a lot, too, you know) but I still buy them. Korn's albums are getting worse, but I still listen to them. Metallica, as a group, seems to be figuring out how to suck more and more all the time, but I still like them. I think that most of what's wrong isn't non-originality of pop, it's taking the moments of originality, then packaging them and formatting them and mass producing "what works" until it's so sickeningly bad and overdone that nobody cares anymore.
Even the Beatles had songs that sucked... but they still produced good ones throughout their whole career. I think bands just get lazy now, and so do DJs and labels, and no one is afraid to take risks and do things that might not sell. Experimenting isn't an option to most bands anymore, because they've found enough money and done what works enough to make that money, that they really have no ambition anymore.
And then there's the ones that do it because they love it. Tool, etc.
Hey, look who knows absolutely nothing on music. You hate music don't you rickie? I mean, you listen to music you hate. You know that MTV is fucking you and you still listen to it. And ooh, that was real, clever with your Christina Agualeria joke. I mean, you know that the music you listen to is shit. I have no reason to attack your music because you just admitted you listen to shit. I just want to know why you would do that.
Let me tell you something: Popular music is popular for a reason. Becuase it's fucking great. Lets look at five of the most popular bands today. And I don't mean what's popular in high schools or VH-1 or MTV. Those and the people who watch those, and the people who participate in the music world in those three categories are not the mass public. Plus saying stuff about MTV being crap has already been said. We all know it, why say it. That's like writing a ten page letter on why evil is not good. But anyway, five extremely popular artists:
1) Radiohead- yeah, they're the most popular band in the world. And guess what, they make some of the best music in the world.
2) Tool- Who among you guys didn't know that tool wasn't one of the most popular bands in the world?
3) Bjork- Internationally famous, makes incredibly great music.
4) Sigur Ros- I don't know how famous they are here in America, but I know they are internationally famous, and extremely critically acclaimed, and I'm starting to think they're better than tool.
5) Beck- Who here hasn't heard looser or where it's at? Radiohead loves him. and oh, look at this:
Maynard: Take the example of Beck. He was big here with his piece. He was the "in" musician for some time. That hasn't stopped him from continuing in the style he's chosen. His new album isn't selling as well, but he kept his integrity. He's an arti st. He will last, he will be the next Tom Waits, and he won't care if his next single is popular or not. He likes what he does, he's an artist in the true sense of the term.
There, deserving bands and pop artists make a lot of money. But you still say their fans don't say their music is good.
Ok: I love The Flaming Lips because they make great music.
I love The Strokes because they make good music.
I really love The Beach Boys because Brian Wilson made great music.
I love The Microphones because they have great music and some of the best, meaningful, lyrics I've ever heard.
There. I can't agree with anything you can say about pop, or popular music being bad. You should look somewhere other than Rolling Stone, Spin, and MTV for your music. None of the music channels, Rolling Stone, and Spin, like music. Corporate music doesn't do shit except make bad music that won't last, so it's pointless to complain. Great music will always remain. If you think by attacking corporate music you're saying anything special, you're wrong. Why don't you just say how much you don't like hitler if you want to protest something as pointless?
ok, like many of you, i have strong opinions about music. let me get this out of the way first: i maintain that rap is almost universally misspelled. it requires a c. also: remember, rap music isn't as bad as it sounds.
as far as old pop goes, ever wonder where the term 'one-hit wonder' comes from? given, there were some decent artists to come out of that genre of music, such as the beatles, but a large portion of pop music from the 60's was by bands that barely were together long enough to make an album. the beatles, on the other hand, dropped acid after they became immensely popular, and produced some truly wonderful music.
led zeppelin also achieved great fame, but with something many seem to lack nowadays: talent. john bonham wrote practically every even-metered beat and fill rock drummers use today, jimmy page is among the top 5 guitarists of all time (by my reckoning), and john paul jones was an all-around good musician.
then there's jimi hendrix, who was a musical genius. 'nuff said.
after that comes the deluge of british prog-rock, most notably, pink floyd, emerson lake and palmer, king crimson, et cetera ad nauseum. don't get me wrong, i like those bands, but they all sound the same.
going on on top of that was disco, and then glam metal. i won't even touch that.
then there's punk. punk is, as fat mike of nofx puts it "a bunch of guys who don't know how to play instruments playing together, and people like them even though they totally suck." in other works, all attitude and minimal talent. jumping ahead a decade, we get emo punk. emo punk is what you get if you take the skimmings off the top of the great vat that is punk, and add a lot of water, so in other words, no attitude and no talent. i'm suprised no one has bitched about it yet here. if this is what they're talking about when they say that pop music has shifted back to rock, then that's sad.
jumping back again, punk inspired two genres of music: grunge and metal. grunge is the dark qualities of punk, but with talent this time, i.e. nirvana, alice in chains, melvins, et cetera. metal, however defunct it is now, has had its gems, such as cliff burton and 'dimebag' darrel.
numetal i don't particularly care for. korn did start the genre, however much you wish to bash them, and they still do define and control it now. biz limpkit became popular because of them, and now, they are nobodys (except wes borland, he saw it was a sinking boat and got out) because they pissed off jonathan davis. Their music may sound all the same, but nobody plays tuned down 7-string guitars and 5-string bass better than korn.
that is not to say i despise the entire genre. system of a down's lyrics are intelligent and thought provoking, and their drummer impresses me with what he can do with a single pedal (try the song 'ddevil'). the amount of work put into mocking the bible deserves some recognition from disturbed, even if their first album blew big-time donkey balls.
indie-rock bands like the hives and the presidents and the white stripes are good, in my opinion, not for their musical talent, but for their quirkly lyrics. same goes for they might be giants and beck.
i guess my entire problem with the music industry is that it lends itself to manufactured music that has no redeeming value. which is why, in part, i like tool so much.
HOLY SHIT. DID YOU JUST SAY THE WHITE STRIPES AND THE HIVES ARE INDIE. YOU FUCKIN MORON. They were on MTV. The white stripes and the hives are popular everywhere. And I love them for their musical talent. They know how to rock. They know what rockin is. It's not some whiny 30 year old talking about how bad his migranes are right now. It's a bunch of people playing rock. Nothing more. I mean, look at Led Zepplin and The Rolling Stones. Led Zepplin never whined about how much life sucks when they rocked. When they did songs that were meant to be emotional, they made sure that you knew it was emotional. Otherwise they rocked. The rolling stones, man they rocked, and didn't do anything but rock. The Stripes do that. They put lyrics aside, and just fuckin JAM! I'll just give you this link to a review of two of their cds:
(not sure if the thing about Wisconsin is true, but man I hope it is)
And Beck... how could you not think his music is good. He's quircky and really really funny and the definition of cool in my opinion. I think part of it is that a lot of his songs are jokes. Just look at Get Real Paid. It's hillarious, but it's also a great kraftwork type song. Midnight Vultures is the greatest get real paid, get real laid, get real hungry album. The only time I don't like it when he does those jokes is on Hollywood Freaks and Debra, where the joke meant more than the music. And look at Sea Change. He knows how to make emotional music and still be great. He can do absolutely anything. He has more talent than pretty much any band out there if he can combine Country, Rap, Blues, Hard Rock, R&B, and Electronica in one song, and still make it sound great. Man, don't fuck with my beck.
Dude, Beck, The White Stripes, and The Hives, are extremely famous bands. They'll be remembered just like Jimi Hendrix and Led Zepplin. You know why. BECAUSE THEY'RE FAMOUS AND GREAT!
Man you do know nothing about music. And what's with your non-punk-liking? Who do you listen to that's punk? Who have you actually heard that's actually punk and not some commercialized bastardization of punk? Have you ever heard Sonic Youth? Have you ever heard ...And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Dead? That's punk.
It's just, don't pretend you know music when you say something like that. Hey, I'll be indie and reference... Matador... or K... or Merge.Hey, I’ll be more indie and talk about The Velvet Underground. Underground’s in their name, man they must be indie. Man I know a lot about music.
You said that System Of A Down has deep meaningful lyrics. I don't think I even need to say anything about that.
KoRn may control nu-metal, but they control the shittiest genre out there now. And who cares. They make the shittiest music out there. They take themselves way too seriously. They do nothing but whine and whine and whine about some of the dumbest things in the world. "This song is about Mr. Rogers, and how FAKE he is." "This song, Lies, is about how FAKE everyone is." "This song, Faget, is about how all the kids, who are totally FAKE, made fun of me when I was a little boy." Mhmm, yeah, ok, if your life is so fucked up, why not try to FIX IT! Why, because it doesn't sell well.
Why does everyone who writes here know nothing about music? Please, someone out there who knows something about music, and has something to say other than "corporate music isn't good," write!
as far as punk goes, i do listen to actual punk, as in the clash, sex pistols, bad religion, and the misfits, to name a few.
and what did i say about beck? i like him for his quirky lyrics. i do thoroghly enjoy the satirical side of his music.
i did not say that system of a down's lyrics were deep, just that, if you've actually listened to the stuff they didn't play on the radio, the lyrics left-leaning tendencies are quite thought provoking.
and about korn, i don't like jonathan davis. i just like the way the rest of the band sounds.
For the longest time in high school i COULD NOT understand why my favorite band at the time, Led Zeppelin, wasn't being listened to by my peers. In fact, the only people who commented on my t-shirts of the band were my teachers (oddly enough). And the same things happened as my tastes blossomed so that my favorites included MANY other bands, like NIN, Tool, Radiohead, Jesus Lizard, etc. But what finally struck me, and what echoes what many people in this thread have been saying, is that what is good for me probably doesn't fly with other people. In fact, there are people whom i hold in high regard who like music that is completely different from what i like. But what finally comforted me in all of this was the thought that it's ALL RIGHT for one to have different tastes than one's neighbor/friend/brother/whatever. In fact, whatever gets you to that "place", the place where you feel wonderful while enjoying your favorite music, is JUST FINE. It certainly cannot be a bad thing if people, listening to different kinds of music, get the same goosebumps at the end of it all. I'm a cello performance major, and i feel thrilled to be performing Bach's St. Matthew's Passion, and i get the same thrilling feeling while listening to Lateralus or Dark Side of the Moon.
"Pop" music may seem to many to be a revolting adversary that runs contrary all that is good in music by artists like TOOL, but as long as people are enjoying it, i say FUCK IT. If everyone comes away feeling good and content and cleansed after listening to their music, i really see no harm in it. The fact that i'm not necessarily into another person's music is inconsequential. As long as we both come away with the same positive feeling at the end of the day, i think we'll both be better for it
I was wondering if anyone, like me, listens to mainstream radio every once in a while and hears of a new band and thinks 'hey they sound alright' then you say to yourself 'hmm their being played on mainstream radio' and be totally turned off by this. Has the music industry and commercial radio twisted us that much?
As with decent bands not being recognized, I think this is a good thing in a way. It makes us unique. If we went walking around with a system of a down (no offense to the band, I have respect for them) shirt on people wouldnt think much of it, if we went round with a tool shirt on people are like 'tool? wtf'...imagine in twenty years time presuming tool are over with and someone is wearing a tool shirt. People will still respect that (led zeppelin is a good example for the present). However in 20 years time if your walking around in an N'SYNC shirt YOU ARE GOING TO BE EMBARRESED as they were a crappy phase that is now recognised 20 years later. It seems that 'pop' music (not all of it) is only 'in' until something 'better' replaces it (or a year passes). So lets consider ourselves privledged, we are the minority, we are intelligent and we have evolved. In 20 years the majority will realise WE were right.
*I apolagize if the wording is a bit screwed up, I hope you all understand :)
__________________ He who devotes his whole mind to doing nothing, will have everything done for him.
For starters, I was mentioning the difference between "pop", as a genre, and "popular", as in what sells a lot of albums. It's possible to be both, one does not guarantee the other. And, as in all genres, there's stuff in "pop" that sucks mixed in with the stuff that's good. That's why I attempted to draw the line between the genre and the factual label of "popular".
I hate MTV, and I don't watch it. It's a joke.
I also didn't say any of what I had said was revolutionary, because honestly, I don't think a thread like this can come up with anything new after about 5 or 6 posts.
I never said I listen to music I hate, or I'd be listening to Slipknot, and Disturbed, and Nickelback, and all those other derivative shitty nu-metal pieces of crap.
Speaking of derivative...
Has anyone noticed that The White Stripes, who apparently are saving rock from itself, sound EXACTLY like The Kinks? Right down to the shitty production? I know I have. And then there's The Hives, and the whole rest of the big "The _______" trend that's running right up MTV's playlists and has Rolling Stone and Spin covers monopolized (for now). I don't deny that they "rock out", but as far as art and originality is concerned, man, they suck balls.
And punk... good punk is okay. I certainly can't listen to it for too long, because it grates on my eardrums, but I certainly am not going to try to ram it down someone's throat because I like it as a musical style.
I'm really getting sick of your bullshit holier than thou attitude, and I really wish that you'd just the fuck up and let people have their OPINIONS on an OPINION board. You keep acting like your shit don't stink, but you're just a music fan, like any of the rest of us.
Oh, and I like Beck, and Radiohead, and Bjork. "Loser" is spelled with one 's' and Where It's At is a great song, "A Place for Everything and Everything in its Place" is one of the best songs EVER, and Bjork's music is beyond comparison.
And "BECAUSE THEY'RE FAMOUS AND GREAT" is the stupidest reason for remembering someone I can think of. Comparing The White Stripes to Jimi Hendrix? Absolute rubbish. Beck, yes. The White Stripes, no. And on top of that, a hell of a lot of people are remembered for being SHITTY, too, like the New Kids on the Block and Vanilla Ice.
If you want to attack the music I listen to, fine. But I listen to it because *I* want to, not because everyone else listens to it, or because it's the "cool" music. THAT'S the problem with MTV and corporate radio/music. It's mostly mind-numbing shit that pre-pubescent children listen to because everyone else is, or because it's the only thing they're exposed to.
And yes, 48&2, I do turn on the radio sometimes, and am greeted with pleasant surprises, but if I listen to it for too long, they get played over and over and over again, and it goes from a surprise to an annoyance.
I agree with the fact that all these "new punk" bands have the worst production since the "real punk" bands. I am all for progression, and that includes quality of sound. but shit, even if they were produced by David Bottril I wouldnt try to hear that shit. But I guess I'm just a moron who "knows nothing on music," however incorrect that statement may be, both grammatically and personally.
Sorry for being an asshole. Though I stand by what I say about the music industry. I do think that corporate music makes the best. Look at your top 10, 20, 30, 50 records, and look at how many of them are on corporate labels.
What I want to know is, what's the real difference between major labels and indie labels? Is it just that the major labels have more money? I've read that they're both assholes to their musicians. So really the main difference is just that one has more moneys, and therefore more honeys, and therefore more music options.
I'm not going to defend punk because... it's really not a genre worth doing anything for. I like new punk like Trail Of Dead, and old punk like The Stooges and The Ramones (don't like The Sex Pistols much though. I read at one of their gigs they sucked so much that the fans threw shit at them on stage).
Because they're famous and great is the reason all bands are remembered. Pink Floyd are remembered because of both their fame and greatness. Lets say they never made Dark Side Of The Moon and never got signed. We wouldn't know about them. I'm not saying Dark Side is their best album, but it was the one that made them really famous.
Once again, sorry for being an asshole. (I only say I have better taste than you guys because it's true. j/k, lol)
I guess my big problem is with the music made for money, not for art. I hope to one day be able to support myself with my art, but I'm not going to make what other people will buy just to get paid. I'm going to do what *I* want.
Labels, in essence, are good. They provide outlets for distrobution and marketing of artists, but they, too, subcomb to greed, and now it IS a corporation pumping out shit to listen to, just like those people that pump out shitty paintings/prints of landscapes for doctor's offices.
Originally posted by J1516 Rap rock is one of the worst ideas ever. It's not for music, it's clearly for making money.
Bullshit. Case in point: The Judgment Night Soundtrack. Sonic Youth and Cypress Hill. Slayer and Ice-T. Del and Dinosaur Jr. Teenage Fanclub and De La. Helmet and House of Pain. As an addendum, I'd like to mention that Run D.M.C. and Aerosmith did the whole Rock/Rap thing a long time ago, not Korn, not your Gimp Triscuit, not Caca Roach. Go ahead, tell me that Korn sucks, that 311 sucks. Have you heard the first Korn album? It does rock. Fucking "Ball Tongue", "Helmet in the Bush." These are good songs. 311 Grassroots is good.
J1516- Do you think that ...And You Will Know Us By the Trail of Dead is punk? Punk influenced, certainly, but why not call Britney Spears punk because one time she heard "God Save the Queen" at a strip club? "At one of their gigs, the Sex Pistols sucked so much that people threw shit at them." Okay. Maybe Austin is different, but in my hometown, bands have shit thrown at them whether they suck or not. Not Tool, obviously, but many other bands - Fear Factory, for instance, who don't suck as much as they might seem to at first and who play their shit faster live. Guess that doesn't say much about Seattle, but whatever.
I no longer listen to the radio for music. I listen to about 15 minutes of Howard Stern between the time my alarm clock goes off and the time I get up, but beyond that, I can't do it. I used to listen to Alt Rock radio, but during the 3rd Eye Blind boom of the mid-90's, I started listening to the "Rock" station in Seattle. Which was great for awhile. Jimi, some Stones, Zepplin, Sabbath, Floyd, Rush (anyone else notice that you can refer to classic bands with two names by just the last name?) - old shit that I had previously forsaken as "my parents' music - plus they played Tool, Metallica, even the Melvins. Anyway, recently they started to lower their standards, playing garbage like Muddle of Pudd [sic] and Creed. Fucking Creed on my beloved rock station. So I switched again to the "Classic Rock" station. Unfortunately, I started getting tired of the classics (a tragedy) because there are a finite number of good singles from the 60's and 70's. So I'm done, for the moment. I hear about bands from friends and watch M2 occasionally. I watch MTV for pure entertainment value - It's like the Hall of Presidents at Disneyworld - a propagandistic nightmare, except they hide the strings better. I listen to CD's and make my own music with a shitty freeware techno program. It's better than listening to N'Sync, shaving my sideburns every day, and waxing my ass hair.
And another thing. There's been a lot of self-righteousness on this thread pertaining to people's reasons for not being into popular music, i.e. "I am so smart that I cannot be fooled by pop media culture." Please, can we tone it down a bit? Is there anything worse than hearing sanctimonious tripe like this? Just because you don't like pop music doesn't mean that you are smarter than fans of other styles of music. Snobbery is no way to get people to listen to your opinion. Yeah, you whine about how the kids down at the mall are idiots because they called you a ******. Or you can hand them a tape of good music and say, "no, not really" (or "yes, I am", depending on what your proclivities are). It is really difficult to do what is best for someone else, but recognizing that as humans we are all capable of feelings and a deeper spirituality is something that I would venture to say Tool is into. Barring speculation about the band, from reading posts on this site, it is definitely something tool fans who post here are into. Elitism will kill any good movement or will make it elite, by definition closing it to some. If you are about unity and collectivity, stop treating people like shit. Finally, I would like to take a step back and say that I have never really followed the aforementioned suggestions and it's ironic to be chastised for self-righteousness. However, I think the above advice applies - I usually give better advice than I follow.