Welcome to my 50th post.

For my first post as a "deep thinker", i've started thinking about beauty. A lot of music is beautiful in the classical genre: Mozart's Ave verum corpus, Schubert's 8th symphony, Mendelson's violin concerto, Bartok's first violin concerto...

Tool also has its moments of beauty. Much of 10,000 days is beautiful such as the opening guitar riff of Right in Two, and the vocals in The Pot. Perhaps the most beautiful is Disp/Refl/Triad. There's something of an eternal beauty in that trio of songs.

The question is: where does this beauty come from?

Does it just toy with our emotions, or is there some perfect beauty it aspires to be? Something that it has things in common with, but is still very far away from?

If there is such a thing, what is it like? Somthings very simple have this attribute. The logarithmic spiral is simple but beautiful (see avatar); some shells and galaxies are shaped like the "spira mirabilis" so are beautiful too. The atribute makes them beautiful. Is it the same with music?

If so, is it right infront of our eyes?


Think about it.

............... interesting I suppose...... I think this probably should be in the interact section not under 10,000 days though.

Not meaning to flame, just for your future referance.

But anyways, are you trying to say that you think beauty has some mathmatical form or something??

Which may not make a lot of sense since everyone interperates beauty in their own way. (Sorry about the multiple posts.)

Well, the band members have said that they believe in Sacred Geometry and, therefore, in starting from, or breaking things down into, the simplest form possible and expanding from there. They have also said that they start the jams or songwriting from a certain emotional space. So, starting from a simple emotion and adding to it tastefully to form a complete song that ultimately incorporates related emotions and a complex of emotions would likely yield a feeling of beauty, or the fullest expression of that emotion and it's corollaries, permutations, and components (e.g., anger broken down into fear and love). (I think I just figured out why their songs feel the way they do to me.) Anyway, if this is how they do it, then it makes sense that Tool's music could affect someone deeply.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forms

Not sure if you've been introduced to Plato or not yet, but this is a basic description of his forms, which I think you're aspiring towards. Maybe.

Classification of musical genious, TOOL included, = Canourous Thamaturgy. look the meaning up. take care.

-Andrew

not the state the obvious but it has been shown that symmetry is indeed a major characteristic of beauty.

beauty is really subjective... but i do feel what your saying

the spiral does posses a unique beauty to it.. but i could say that for instance.. the square as well

Yup. Spirals are pretty.

Watch out Spiramirabilis, with posts like this you will be a very deep thinker soon! IT IS cool hey - going from lurker to deep thinker! I know its crap but it worked for me.

I love where you are going with this. Your avatar is the spiral created from the fibonacci sequence (made famous recently by the Da Vinci code). If you make cubes of the fibonacci numbers and rotate them through a plane then you get your spiral - its fun. And architects have long known that buildings based on these principles (eg The Golden Ratio) have visual appeal - beautiful (if you like).

So I was thinking (always a bit scary) that if you extend this idea to music there are obviously patterns of music that are beautiful (eg The Perfect Fifth) and these are fundamentally about ratios as well. They are also about symmetry (credit to undertoes). Maybe Tool are using these ideas, but maybe not.

However, I was also thinking about humour. One of the basic ideas of humour is that you take a simple (but true) concept and extend it into the ridiculous. The humour comes from the fact that everyone can relate to it because it is fundamentally true but it is SO exaggerated that it is funny - Jerry Seinfeld is a master at this. So maybe with humour it is the same as your spiral that you take a small truth and spin it out as far as you can go. Anchored back in reality these things can be extended into the ridiculous.

SO, one of the things I have noticed about Tool's music is that they take a simple musical pattern and then enlarge it until it is extraordinaryily beautiful (eg the drums in Right in Two, thus cleverly justifying the placement of this thread). You musicians out there would be much better commenting on this than me.

BUT the other thing Tool do is that they take a simple, true idea and value-add to it until it is insanely great but also still anchored back in reality. Maynard's mother's life and faith is the obvious example. But the one I really like is "Hooker with a Penis". A simple 'story' of a fan turns into this eulogy against the man but with the beautiful reality (symmentry even) that we have all sold out. This basic concept seems to be all through Tool's music, as though the music and the lyrics are the extreme extension of a simple, true idea.

Lateralus is the perfect example (and I suspect the reason Spiramirabilis picked the spiral as his avatar).

Sorry to make such a long story out of it but you did say to "think about it".

Some great ideas here.

I don't know how much you know about the history of the musical scale, but I think it started with the perfect fifth. You start with one note in the scale, then you add a note one fifth above, then you add one a fifth above that (adjusting them down an octave when necessary). For example, you start with the note A, then you get E followed by B and F#. If you carry on in this way you approximately come back to the note A to form a loop, a circle of notes. However, you don't quite get a loop, its actually more like a spiral, an endless cycle of notes. The scale we use now uses a slightly altered 5th to make it into a complete circle.

I'm not sure how relevant this is to Tool, but I find it interesting. However, music would not be at all beautiful if we used a random scale.

Thanks, but I was aware of the Plato connection. However, this thread is about our ideas, not Plato's.

Cool - that may be the essence of the beauty of music then - swinging on the spiral of our divinity. I totally agree that random scales are not beautiful Shonberg's atonal music bears evidence to this (IMO).

And, do you think that the same idea can be used in lyrics - taking the basic ideas up a notch and then back again?

But your original question is still relevant - are we trying to recreate some reflected perfection?

It is interesting to look at how the creative process works. Perhaps we all know what true beauty in music is, but it only comes out when we experiment musical ideas in a jam. If we constructed a song using logic and intellect only, we wouldn't get anywhere.

Also, I agree that it is the emotions in the music that move us the most, particulary in 10,000 days, but I feel that beauty is quiet separate from that. I find the song Reflection has beauty rather than emotion.

I guess what we are saying is that great music comes from skilled musicians linking into an emotion and reflecting an emotional response IN that music. It obviously doesn't have to have lyrics to be beautiful and moving (eg most classical music) but when it DOES have lyrics it can take the music to a whole new level.

But are we getting anywhere NEAR answering this question:

BUY THIS MAN A BEER

DO THE ONE ABOUT AIRLINE FOOD

I can't even imagine a separation. When I enjoy music, it is because of how it feels; the way the sound affects me. Nothing else can bring together the visceral and intellectual the way music can. Even if a beat just "feels" good, or if a song just "jams", those are feelings to me. I just don't see a way to separate the beauty of music from the feelings it inspires.

Schoenberg's scale is infact highly orginised, but is trying to apply somthing unmusical, equality, to music.

I'm not sure lyrics work in the same way as music does, I think it is more about meaning than beauty, although when it comes to great poetry I am sure the same applies.

Exactly!

what makes tools music so beautiful?? said by 3 words.

"the whole atmosphere"

IMO i think the schism parts (one of many examples) after nard's singing "communication" and the instruments hit the higher atmospheric levels speaks for it self. thats what i define as beauty music.

so what do you difine atmosphere as?

Atmosphere could be the mood that the song sets. I'll use the example above: To me, Schism sets an atmosphere of despair, or frantic hopelessness.

So is there beauty in despair then?

exactly. Atmosphere is how the music comes to you by the speakers. it brings up different feelings in your body. for example in wings pt. 2 the whole atmosphere in the song almost make me drop a tear when i listen to it by myself alone. It makes me feel that i could be in maynard place as well, like the song swallows me up

So what you are saying is that:

beauty = atmosphere = mood

So the answer to the question "Does it (music) just toy with our emotions, or is there some perfect beauty it aspires to be?" is the first in your opinion?

Got Phi? Got e? Got life performed mathematically?

We love great music and great music is beautiful. Love , the emotion or however else you want to define it as, is always in search for what it never has enough off and that is off beautiful things (music in this case). Now I haven't gotten into defining what beauty is because it is too abstract of a notion for humans to categorize neatly (okay, maybe just for me then) but its effect on us undeniable and recognising beauty is something we as human beings can all do fairly well when we come into contact with it.

It doesn't look like my discussion lead me to anywhere but heh, I tried and I guess this is the reason I'm still a thinker..or a lurker but that is of no importance. Very nice thread

I am still with the program, SpiraMirabilis.

Have we come to any consensus here?

beauty = atmosphere = mood

Is that what we are going with? What do YOU think, SpiraMirabilis?

I think beauty in music may be more definable than that - I still think it may be more about distilled essentials than some vague atmosphere. Not that I have any justification at all. It just seems to me that if architecture and maths can come down to some basic symmetrical principles then maybe music can as well. I know that we have talked about the score of the music being about beautiful sequential chords and arrangements but now we are talking about music as a whole - lyrics, music, and the themes.

It is a really big question, but a great conversation.

No, it's not my opinion, I was just summing up what others had said. Looking back, it does not answer the question at all, just tries to avoid it.

I think there is definitely more to music than some "vague atmosphere", and some hidden beauty we are all drawn to. I can justify it to some extent by comparing it with the other art forms. Literature and poetry are based around language, so originated from communication, bringing across a meaning. Its not a surprise that we take an interest in stories, because even though they can be untrue, they still remind us of our own life. Pictures, of course, came about from things we see around us, like people and landscapes which we can find beautiful because they affect us. However, music bears no real relation to our lives, it is completely abstract. Therefore their must be something in music that draws us to it, otherwise it would never come about. I'm not saying this doesn't apply to the other arts, but only music has is made completely out of abstract ideas.

Also there needs to be a reason why music affects our mood and creates an atmosphere.


I'm glad your still here HelenA, but its a shame more people aren't involved.

Now I ask why does there have to be a reason to everything? Music moves us. There is mystic in its overwhealming power and trying to unnearth and strip down its effect on humans as a group of sequential notes of mathematical harmony or a series of neurological glitches in our brain with neurones firing haphazardly upon hearing such notes really takes the Beauty out of the whole thing .

Sometimes What is ,is. Beauty can be felt from within yet trying to decipher it's abstract nature becomes undeniably beyond what we are capable to fathom. But maybe I should just speak for myself.

Now I ask a question. Is beauty human in nature or is it something we are simply in tune with ? do we notice it because we can or is it a fabrication of our own mind and an ability which is inherently reserved for humans beings?

I guess there doesn't HAVE to be a reason but as SpiraMirabilis says (above) if there wasn't a reason then there just wouldn't be enough need to demand a supply.

Well isn't THAT the reason? Don't we want more 'overwhelming power', isn't that exactly the sort of thing that humans crave? Isn't that what "right in two" and "lateralus" is about?

Why? Surely understanding the beauty of architecture or poetry or landscapes ADDS to their beauty rather than detracts from it? Why do you think understanding something more deeply makes it less beautiful? I am not having a go at it you. You may well have a valuable point about the beauty in the mystery.

THAT is a really interesting question. Is it only humans that recognise beauty? I am sure someone has done a study on this somewhere. Do animals have a sense of beauty? And do we really recognise it or is it something that we have created in our own minds? WHERE does the emotional response to beauty come from?
For example, why is it than when I listen to a good song I think "mmm, this is a good song, I should listen to this more often" but when I listen to a GREAT song (like 10,000 days) I feel a sense of physical joy (even relief). That is essentially SpiraMirabilis's question, I guess, is that lyrical/tonal beauty a measurable quantity? Or even just a definable quantity?

Now this is similar, I think, to part of my original question concerning the origin of beauty.

The answer could lie in two places. Either as you suggest, something deep down in our human nature or it could be something outside, something natural to sound its self. Personally I think its most likely to be a mixture of them both. For example, as mentioned in the posts above, certain intervals, which link to certain ratios of frequency that produce a strong and fulfilling effect. However, there must be more to beauty than just that, and that's where I think our human nature comes in.

I imagine it must be extremely difficult to tell what animals think when the listen to music. They might react, but it could be because a sound reminded them of danger perhaps? However, it's an interesting question.

As far as physical and tangible "beauty", there are certain characteristics that do equate to perfect beauty. For example: the human body is full of intended symmetry and ratios....The Golden Ratio...1.6:1. Watch the movie "Pi" for more on this. But even things as simple as the fact that the space between someone's eyes is supposed to be as wide as the actual eye. We all know that no one is "perfect" and humans arent perfectly symmetrical. I wish I could find the article that explained all of this. But it basicallt said that with symmetry and the 1.6:1 ratio, perfect beauty is explained.

Now...I know that none of that relates to the album necessarily, just thought Id add to the spiral/ratio idea.

In Right In Two, during the tabla jam, there is a sound (unsure if it is synth or what not or maybe a Mandala effect) that has a pattern like this:

. . .. . . .. . . .. . . .. . . .. . . ..

I know that this is probably not a very good explanation, but if you listen to that part, you will hear the fairly quiet effect that I am trying to explain....

MY POINT BEING (finally): Listening to it, it takes a few seconds to pick up the pattern, but its simply 2 beats, and a third one with another sound playing after one half beat following the 3rd and starting the pattern all over. Jesus, this is fucking hard to explain.

Do me a favor, so that I dont sound like a total ass here, and listen to it and find the rhythm. My brain has a hard time following this, but I finally got it. And, being a guitarist, Ive noticed a lot of euphoria inducing rhythms that Adam plays that can be a little difficult to play along with. I dont know how to back this up, but there is a certain mild level of focus required to follow it. I.E.: Jambi at 5:15 until the "SHINE ON"....part.

I learned to count these rhythms when Lateralus was released, and I find the music much more enjoyable when I can focus on what one member is playing. For example, first I will focus on Adams guitar. Ill listen to the whole album with JUST AJs sound in mind. Then I will do the same thing with drums. Then vocals. Then the bass. Then after gettting to know each part fairly well, I will go back and listen and try to focus on everything at once. Its much harder than it sounds, and is quite rewarding. Very meditative.

Im sure 99% of you are thinking that I have lost my mind. And 100% of that 99% may just be right.

YES! And we are starting to think that there may be something similar in music. "Symmetry and ratios" - even the sound of that is enough to be inspired. But with music I think it probably needs to go that step further and engage the emotions, as you also say.

It does relate to Lateralus.. and therefore, by extension, 10,000 days

You sound so much like an Australian! LOL. Full of self-conscious good humour. BUT you do not sound like an ass at all (and good on you for posting this). That rhythm in "Right in two" is exactly what I was saying earlier. That it builds on a perfect rhythmic harmony until it is extraordinary. The basic beat is quite simple (as you say) but when it is extended (out into the spiral) it becomes amazing. This is what I mean about taking a simple musical concept and then building on it so much that it gloriously complex YET simple at the same time. I find it deeply soothing (and I have NO idea why). I think that it may be ESSENTIALLY beautiful and hence creates a big emotional response.

I am definitely going to try this.

YES!!! I have always wanted to be part of the 1% of the bell curve!!!

Thank you for understanding me.

<- Does not feel like an ass.

Yes I'd like to add the simplicity mark for beauty in music (and on a larger scale, arts) as well. The late Stephen Jay Gould had an interesting comment about this when he said that science has its greatest appeal when something incredibly complex can be explained in simple terms; the most famous example being of course general relativity in E=MC square. Now this is interesting because it shows that we can actually find beauty in something as cold and abstract as quantum physics; other examples would be Darwin's laws and the general framework of molecular biology where an incredibly complex system builds from a few very simple starting rules.

To make the link to why a certain piece of music can appeal to beauty, when music conveys that feeling of simplicity where it lures you into thinking it was not elaborately constructed and digested and re-digested over and over while in fact it shelters some amazingly complex rhytms and ideas (take either pushit, lateralus or jambi as examples) thats when music approaches that E=MCsquare feeling and you can start appreciating that beauty more and more as you delve deeper.

It's a good analogy, but the main thing i've learnt from A-level physics is that things in the universe are far more complicated than they seem. These simple equations are just mire simplifications of the real, often random like, complex truth.

I think a better analgy is mathematics. All of mathematics comes from a very simple abstract starting point, the number scale. It then builds on this to make all these complicated connections, which all make ultimately make perfect sence. And I find maths beautiful.