- can anyone clue me in as to what the one/ten is referring to? i get the feeling it is referring to some aspect of astrology but am not familiar with that subject. any thoughts most welcome.
well, this being a song that i find very therapeutic, i've been trying to over-analyze this piece.
As far as the one, the ten, it's quite a weird line. The whole paragraph of lyrics makes pretty logical sense, but then saturn is introduced. To me, it could be that, while the person is holding their grudge, it is slowly destroying them. It's all they think about, while the rest of the universe is just going at it's own pace.
Saturn ascends, just like it always does. and the one and the ten show that, there are planets like saturn all over the place, orbitting their own way, unaffected by the damage done. There is the one saturn, and then at least the 10 other like it in other solar systems in our galaxy.
I love this song because it shows how stupid it is to dwell on any one thing, let it be a grudge, or a great moment in your life. The song tells people that this thing called life goes on regardless of any one thing. You may hold a grudge, but who cares? Only the holder is the one affected really, and in the great scheme of things, it's just better to move on.
actually, this is my interpretation of the line. Saturn is the planet that represents a few key things. I will not tell you, you will search for it and find out yourselves. Once you do so, you may think that the one and ten references are describing the choice we will face when it is our time. The tree of Sephirot (tree of life) has ten points on it. One being the base man, ten being evolved pure christ-man. check it out, see if you dont feel the same. It matters not.
I don't know about the whole saturn thing, or even the tree of life, I was always under the impression that choose 1 or 10 was a reference to going to extremes e.g. 1 worst , 10 best, or in the case of this song, 1 cold silence 10 heated argument. That's my thoughts anyway. I'm sure I'm no where close.
Originally posted by paraflux actually, this is my interpretation of the line. Saturn is the planet that represents a few key things. I will not tell you, you will search for it and find out yourselves. Once you do so, you may think that the one and ten references are describing the choice we will face when it is our time. The tree of Sephirot (tree of life) has ten points on it. One being the base man, ten being evolved pure christ-man. check it out, see if you dont feel the same. It matters not.
I'm sorry but I believe your interpretation of the Tree Of Life is incorrect.
First of all Sephiroth, according to The Qabalah means numbers or more specifically the numbers 1 - 10. Each number corresponds with all phenomena in such a way (i'm quoting Crowley now) that their arrangement in the tree of life is a map of the Universe.
Your idea of a base man and a more evolved man sounds more like a nietschze theory, but this has nothing to do with the Tree Of Life.
Now according to the Qabalah 1 is an undefined point, a starting point perhaps? !0 is "Itself fulfilled in its complement, as determined by 7, 8 and 9" Crowley, "The Book Of Thoth" pge 32 etc, etc..
I dont think the reference in the song has anything to do with the Tree Of Life and everything to do with astrology (well I thought it was obvious)
So.... Lets delve into some astrology.
Saturn is the ruling planet of Capricorn and is traditionally associated with limitatoins and boundaries. If Saturn is badly placed in your star sign it can dampen or obstruct positive feelings or actions.
Another factor in astrology is the 12 houses that your zodiacal sign is divided into.
I think the lyrics refer to Saturn and the houses one and ten.
The first house refers to your personality, temperament and general attitude towards life. The tenth house refers to ambition, progress and responsibility (the tenth house is also associated with Saturn).
I think all these factors add together to emphasise the idea in the lyrics of two arguing parties who wont see things from the others point of view, causeing them to remain ignorant, and therefore holding a grudge against each other.
Sorry for going on but I got on a roll, I hope this all makes sense, and is technically correct (please correct me if you think I'm wrong :)
Originally posted by mstajduh I see it more as "1" being his conscious self and "0" being his subconscious self.. if you add the digits to make one number, it's "10" ... which is complete and whole..
what base are you working in? numbers are weird, there are numerals, and then there are numbers of things. Our numerals, 0-9 is a base ten system. the shit our computers understand is binary, 0-1. So, if you took 1 and 0, put those together, and you'd still have one.
I don't think this has anything to do with like, 1 being the worst and 10 being the best. Who's to say that he's even talking about numbers of things.
This reminds me a lot of jimmy, where one and one make one. I'm kinda rambling on with no point, but hopefully someone'll think of something from this.
i think, and this could be WAY off, but saturn ascending is like the astrology thing about Saturn being this planet about letting go of pain or whatever the hell it was, but the 1 the 10 could be like whether your grudge is small (1) or huge (10) it still drags you down no matter what, so don't believe that holding onto a little pain is ok, let it all go...
not sure about the 1/10 part, but in the other thread i posted these two quotes from maynard. obviously some didnt see it.
MJK: Definitely the majority of the record is about re-communication,
about understanding where you are in reference to where you’ve been
and where you’re going. It’s the process of letting go of old baggage
and the evaluation of your place. If you’re into astrology or any of
that kind of stuff, there’s a process called the Saturn Return--your
30-year cycle. It’s something like a mid-life crisis, where you step
back and reevaluate.
MJK: I think we all have, you know? The Saturn Return—I’m not that
fluent in astrology or hocus pocus—but it’s a 28-30 year cycle where
when you’re born Saturn is in one position and it takes approximately
29 years to come all the way back around. It just so happens that it
coincides with the majority of people’s reevaluation of their lives.
It’s kind of a traumatic time, because you’re trying to figure out
who you are and what the hell you’ve been doing for 30 years, and
recognizing patterns. Like, “Why do I keep ending up with these same
people in my life?”—that kind of stuff. Also, for the most part most
of your favorite records are the first three records of a band’s
career. So, here we are on our fourth record. Do we evolve past where
we came from and make it better, or do we fall under the same pattern
that all of our peers have and make the disappointing fourth record?
we can "assume" (I prefer learn the truth) what Maynard means all day long. It is encouraged to learn the secrets the band holds. If we just listened for purely aesthetic pleasure we would be guilty of the same mindset that christians have, what with all the "we are but lowly men who cannot understand the nature of god"
I always had the thought that Saturn referred in part to the beginning and endings of things. Whether they be moments, chapters in life, life itself etc. So in order to grow we would have to end one thing on order to begin another. In order to grow spiritually we have to clear out the beliefs and world views that we cling to so adamantly. Our Grudge = our world view. Look at the way the lyric reads.
Saturn ascends, choose one or ten. Hang on or be humbled again.
By choosing ONE we hang on to old beliefs and old ideas
By choosing TEN we have the floor knocked out from under us and have to find a new way of thinking
Saturn happens to come around at (what 29 year intervals?) so at different transitional points in our lives we are forced to re evalute our belief structure and what we know about life and ourselves (ive gone on about this song a lot since the forum started check out some of my other postings for alternate meanings)
I always had the thought that Saturn referred in part to the beginning and endings of things. Whether they be moments, chapters in life, life itself etc. So in order to grow we would have to end one thing on order to begin another. In order to grow spiritually we have to clear out the beliefs and world views that we cling to so adamantly. Our Grudge = our world view. Look at the way the lyric reads.
Saturn ascends, choose one or ten. Hang on or be humbled again.
By choosing ONE we hang on to old beliefs and old ideas
By choosing TEN we have the floor knocked out from under us and have to find a new way of thinking
Saturn happens to come around at (what 29 year intervals?) so at different transitional points in our lives we are forced to re evalute our belief structure and what we know about life and ourselves (ive gone on about this song a lot since the forum started check out some of my other postings for alternate meanings)
Originally posted by mstajduh I see it more as "1" being his conscious self and "0" being his subconscious self.. if you add the digits to make one number, it's "10" ... which is complete and whole..
You'll see this makes sense as you understand binary notation, computer algorithms, and lateral logic which is the basis of internet communication (the lines connecting on the back of the black sleeve).
01010100-01101111-01101111-01001100
although, I definitely believe that the other replies about the matter are correct as well.. there's always atleast double-meaning in all of life that can be eventually unified (integration and derivation)
Just to let you know, if you don't by now. The "01010100" is a binary representation of a number. That number is an ASCII value.
Hey people I really have no idea what teh hell Maynard sings about but hey it sounds good. With that talk of binary numbers, I was wondering if anyone can read binary numbers and if the following means anything at all or just sounds cool when sung:
1010011010
Theres this band out of Sydney Australia called Cog who are just freakin awesome and have a song called 1010011010. I think they're Tool fans and I'm just wonderin if that number means anything?...
well, ASCII code is a 7 bit code, that means that there are 7 0's or 1's and then one more 0 or 1 for error protection/accents/etc... so there's a total of 8 bits (numbers), check out the above pattern. This, however, is the binary representation of the decimal number, 666.
I personally think that this line is a reference to insignificance...not to say anyone is insignificant but ones grudge certainly is...saturn ascends...you can see saturn slowely aproaching in your mind...the one the ten...you can see a sudden glimpse into ten or a hundred other worlds and pieces of signifficance...but really fuck it...fuck that little grudge cause there's a million just like it...Don't dwell on this garbage because it tears you down...When you catch the impression that your shit don't mean shit in the big picture, the one the ten comes into play...You could be the one...Jesus...or the ten...commandments...one of which will be broken by the majority of us before the day is through...but just to label our insignifficance...know that cursing the one, grudging the one, is like breaking all ten man...it's just another way of saying it...
Give me your thoughts
__________________ This light is not my own,
Dan (prydopen)
OK, here it goes. In another thread I read that Saturn goes through various positions with other planets. When at the one with another planet, this indicates a strong close bond. When at a ten or decile, this indicates something being wasted. So when Manynard says:
"Saturn ascends, choose one or ten. Hang on or be humbled again."
He is saying Saturn is coming up what are you going to choose one or ten. Is the relationship going to hang on and be close or is it going to be wasted and be humbled of how good things were. Then he says:
"Saturn ascends, the one, the ten. Ignorant to the damage done."
Now Saturn ascends to from one to ten ignorant to the breaking up of your relationship. It's at this point that I believe we begin with the lyrics changing to discussing the 29-year Saturn period.
"Saturn comes back around to show you everything
Let's you choose what you will not see and then
Drags you down like a stone or lifts you up again
Spits you out like a child, light and innocent."
So know Saturn has given us a chance to reevaluate this constant change in the relationship. We can either choose keeping the grudge and continuing the cycle or give it up and start the cycle anew.
In astrology, the first house is the house of the self. The tenth house, often called the house of honor, is the house of your place in society. I think he is saying here to choose between living only for your ego, as opposed to living for the good of all.
this is most likel;y wrong, but i thougth i would say it anyway. The whole i or ten thing could have to do with planets. there are 9 planets and a sun, although recent research i think has showed there may be another planet way out there past pluto. if this is true, or the sun is counted as a planet, than that makes ten. so when he says "choose one or ten, and be humbled again" it may be saying that it doesn't matter whether you choose saturn or all the planets, you get humbled, because you are so insignificant....
spiral out......
My mythology escapes me for the moment, I know that Saturn (Cronus) ate his five children (had with wife Rhea) before Zeus was saved by the stone, does anyone know if he maybe ate 5 more somewhere?
Doesn't anyone know about some Qabalah Theory's and Tarot and stuff. Because I read the book "The Mystical Qabalah"(GREAT BOOK) written by Dion Fortune. And it explains the 10 Sephiroth of the Tree of Life. And the first Sephiroth is Kether what is like godlike energy and the tenth Sephiroth is Malkuth(very cool names). So I think that they refer to these to Sephiroth's as in chosing between the ignorant, narrowminded and basic life (i.e. grow up, get a job, get a wife, get a kid, raise the kid and zombiefy into a old man and die(what is also the beginning) and choosing to evolve and enlighting your mind, body and soul(and more...) so you can step out the material world(third dimension) into the(part being alive and most of all when you are dead) fourth dimension(mostly reffered as heaven) that is the place when you are dreaming. Between Kether and Malkuth there eight other sephiroth's. The Tree of Life is illustrated on the back of the Salival cover(the plastic cover, the ten circles that are connected to eachother.). for who is interested. Plus making the Qabalah relate to TOOL.
Well I hope you will accept my alternative view on this thread. And if you wanta know more about Qabalah or you want to tell ME more about Qabalah then you can email me([email protected]) or just post on this thread.
I'm the big eater of knowlegde!
see ya
__________________ Not Noticing the Ancient Sword Which I'm holding in My Hand
Eulogizer's interpretation of the "choose one or ten" line seems by far the most logical. All this talk about the Tree of Life and binary numbers are just bullshit.
I'd like to add to Limo's theory of Astrology that the two parties arguing are most likely between Maynard and Maynard, it represents in my opinion again the theme of overcoming yourself so prevalent in Tools lyrics. Also as compared to other songs of the same nature this song has to do alot more with the actual healing which is seen throughout Lateralus quite a bit more then the others, therefor a fitting song to open the CD with
Originally posted by thelambslain Eulogizer's interpretation of the "choose one or ten" line seems by far the most logical. All this talk about the Tree of Life and binary numbers are just bullshit.
Well the Tree of Life is very rellavant in the Lyrics and the life of the bandmembers.The Tree of Life is a evolution process that lets you experience all aspects of emotion, feelings, conditions of your mind, body and spirit. And The Grudge is one attribute which you must conquer. It isnt displayed on the cover of Salival just for nothing(also in one of the artstuff on the dissectional site. But then again they like writing a open lyric so we all can have an interpretation and not everything is written out of one believe. There are more like multiple combinations of theory's, believes, religions.
I will post a more specific explanation later, cause I have to create some database and shit.
(My apologies for my rather fucked up english, cause I am a dutchman with my-only-in-my-mind-language and I dont have any time to check everything(forgive me))
Greetz,
Tachyon
__________________ Not Noticing the Ancient Sword Which I'm holding in My Hand
just to add to the tree of life theory, saturn is connected with mother figures in qabalah and related tarot.
"saturn comes back around.... Spits you out like a child, light and innocent"
The conscious will never know as much as the subconscious. The one. The ten. Confining. Defining. I read that on here somewhere. I forget who said it. I think it makes sense. Thank you.
I can't make any sense of "the one, the ten", but I think the Tree of Life is a wonderful place to start.
There are nine Planets, and one Sun, making ten. Also, if I recall my Sephirot information properly, the highest Sephirot (Keter) is something mankind can't achieve. That would probably be the Sun... and Earth would be Malkut. Which leads me to ask, which Sephirot then corresponds to Saturn?
This is a really hard line, I appreciate any help.
to sum up some things of interest that this (cluttered) site explains...
-The number of completion/totality.
-The division and reunion of the All (or 1) and Naught (or 0).
-The completion of any endeavor. -The end of one cycle, and the beginning of the next. -Change. Finality. Life and death.
-The ten planets of modern Astrology: Mercury, Venus, Earth, Moon, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto.
-The tenth House of Profession or status, as the result of Karma.
-The Tree of Life - The tenth Sephira of the Tree of Life, Malkuth the Kingdom, Malkah the Queen, or Kallah the Bride; the completion and totality of the Ten Sephiroth. -The Union of Hadit with Nuit. -The Mysterious Union of the Lingham, as symbolized by the number 1, and the Yoni, as symbolized by the numeral. The polarization into duality, as in man and woman.
-The number 10 as both beginning (Alpha) and end (Omega) of a base 10 sequence.
-The countless living, physical manifestations of the Universe. Force in Form. Energy in Matter. Spirit animating the Body. Life.
-The Ten Commandments as revealed to Moses.
-The Mysterious Union of the Spiritual or Secret Self, the Bridegroom, within the Temple of the Human Body, the Bride.
-The physical plane where the Great Work begins, and where it must be completed. -Infinite possibility.
Alright, so many of those might be a stretch, but i think a good number of them can be used for interpretation. My take on the 1 and 10...at first i was thinking they were opposites, but maybe they aren't. maybe we have to go through 10 to become 1. let go of our past grudges and move on...the end of one cycle and the beginning of the next. basically, ending duality. The time will come soon...13.0.0.0.0
One last stretch...on that site, the last little note makes a reference to 11 and 12, as well. 10, 11, 12...mean anything to you regarding this album?
__________________ Stay Thou the hand and spoil the skill
Of them who seek to thwart Thy will.
~J.S. Bach
I know a few things about Qabalah, Tachyon. Read Mystical Qabalah by Dion Fortune, for one. I'd love to discuss it. I'm gonna see how see far this thread carries for now, but we can talk over email anytime. Mine's [email protected]. Everyone feel free to drop a line.
Limo, you may be right, and also not. Qabalah and the tree of life, as it was originally used by jews (usually "kabbalah" instead), probably didn't include astrology or maybe even the notion evolving into some kind of a divine man (but i think it does: Adam Kadmon). That part is Nietzschean for sure, but as Benson shows, Qabalah is really flexible and there's alot of fun to be had by bringing back together pieces that seem to make an unlikely fit and are seemingly unrelated. Qabalah and astrology seem to have much in common, for one thing. You might want to read about the descriptions of Court cards in the book of thoth to discover that there is a connection.
To answer your question Wataru, Saturn is associated with the third sephira (i think that's singular; plural = sephiroth). The third one is called Binah, associated with the abstract 'yin', as opposed to 'yang', and also with Gaia the mother earth godess, ot superior mother. It's also associated with malkuth, like benson's post stated, and malkuth is also called the inferior mother.
It's the last of the three 'supernal' sepiroth, Keter, Chokmah (yang), and Binah. Drawing a line between these three points will result in a triangle, a two-dimensional figure.
By adding a fourth point (Chesed) one can fashion a simple pyramind shape, a tetrahedron (or something), making it 'real', not just an abstract two-dimensional concept.
They say that between the first three, and the fourth and rest of the sepiroth, there lies "the abyss". Each time your individual, immortal soul in Binah, when it reincarnates, it descends down the abyss into manifestation, acquiring different characteristics as it passes through each sepiroth, until it arrives at the tenth, Malkuth, which represents physical manifestation, and is also associated with Saturn.
Saturn is also associated with Satan and judgement. Because of him, we can be blind to certain things while obsessed with others. Keter, Chokmah, Binah form a stable triad of constant interaction. In a sense, although your individual soul in Binah can be distinguished from all the other souls, as where in Chokmah, second sephira (a sort of group-soul or collective conscious) it cannot, the soul in Binah isn't entirely seperate.
In a sense, it represents only the boundaries by which change is measured; it's the fact that i'm not you and you're not me. It only comes into play when we look at two persons next to each other, in an empty space or a mass of faceless people. In a sense it allows for the idea of a relationship uniting two seperate things, or the process itself of cause and effect.
Saturn reappears at ten, since ten (one zero, or a One Cycle) is the last phase of creation, after which creation can repeat beginning with Keter. Every effect is can be a cause in the making.
So what about choosing one or ten? It may refer to the idea of evolving into some kind of ascended man. I'm not sure. Either way, here's another thing to consider:
I think choosing one means beginning anew, creating something, doing something. It means putting nine other things (plus zero - or all things as a whole) aside to concentrate on one thing. This thing is often identified with (oneself). Say if you want to write something down, you could say you're a writer. You'd choose to write, but at the same time you might ignore that you're a hand-mover, a thinker and a language-knower. That's choosing one thing to identify yourself with - writing. Choosing ten, on the other hand, usually involves being one - an individual, and letting your singular focus, or grudge, go, allowing a stream of other things in, such as the fact that the way you're holding your hand while writing might cause you RSI.
In essence, it means to choose to create or observe, to incarnate a seperate ego or participate in a natural cycle of life. It is the paradoxical first decision: should i decide, or let nature (10) decide for me, cancelling the notion of 'i' (1) (until, that is, saturn returns).
I hope this was good shit and really got everyone interested in the tree of life (probably not), because personally i get off on it. If you are interested and want to read more in general, here's a somewhat nonconventional, easy to understand (unlike me) and fun to read site about the Tree of Life. So far, only the 'science' section is availabe (as opposed to 'spirit'), and only partly at that, but well worth your time:
I myself know lots about it, but am still not very good at using and connecting all the info. Just now i found it very difficult to choose what to tell and what to omit. So all questions, flames and criticism, and changes and additions are greatly!! welcomed.
PS: Also, Benson, thanks for the site. I'll look into it.
Paraflux, i think there's merit to your idea of one and ten referring to base man and pure christ-man. I can't think of much to say about it right now. But i was curious wether you think the songs on Lateralus were written or arranged in a way so that it could be interpreted as a description of a process of evolution, such as from 10 to one, or 1 to 10 or whatnot. I kinda talked about it before, but i'm curious as to what your thoughts, and what everyone's thoughts are on this.
Ok, this has kind of gotten spread over a few threads...
Atratus, you seem to be quite knowledgable about this, so I'm interested to hear your opinion on my opinion ;)
I'm wondering if 'Saturn' (3) and it's relationship to judgment and comparison might somehow be consdered as a opportunity for choice or a moment of clarity for the bearer of the grudge - a point at which they might continue to hold the grudge or to let it go.
It's mentioned in another forum that (1) might be considered philisophical and (10) practical / logical, and some things I've read roughly support that. Considering that forgiveness is usually considered the philisophical right and that people bearing grudges so often cling to pure logic justifications (an Earthly weakness?) then (1) and (10) might be aligned with letting go of the grudge and holding it.
Something that ties in with this that I don't think anyone else has mentioned are the lines 'spits you out like a child, light and innocent' or 'sinks you down like a stone'. From Saturn / (3) / "choice", (1) is upward (light) and (10) is much further down ('sinks you down').
Location: the house with the red door... now red was your colour
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There's quite a lot about saturn ascending and "the one the ten" on the net... it's useful information and appears more accurate then anyone's opinion...
so i won't give my opinion, but i'll give an extract from a text i found on the net...
BUT now what images they did attribute to the planets. Although of these things very large volumes have been written by the antient wise men, so that there is no need to declare them here, notwithstanding I will recite a few of them; for they made, from the operations of Saturn, Saturn ascending in a stone, which is called the load-stone, the image of a man, having the countenance of a hart, and camel's feet, and sitting upon a chair or else a dragon, holding in his right hand a scythe, in his left a dart, which image they hoped would be profitable for prolongation of life; for Albumasar, in his book Sadar, proves that Saturn conduces to the prolongation of life; where, also, he says that certain regions of India being subject to Saturn, there men are of a very long life, and die not unless by extreme old age. They made, also, an image of Saturn, for length of days, in a sapphire, at the hour of Saturn, Saturn ascending or fortunately constituted; whose figure was an old man sitting upon a high chair, having his hands lifted up above his head
__________________ When the movie is over...
... and the movie goers have left en masse, the only sound you hear is the bang of chairs returning to their upright position .
Last edited by neo_taboolie; 06-12-2003 at 06:35 PM..
I'm gonna be sly and sneaky now. I started the Tree of Life thread as kind of a spin off from this. I started a different thread because it goes off in a new direction and is a broader topic I think, and I didn't want to take away from this one.
With that said.
*Pretends like he's on TRL*
I wanna give a shoutout to my thread...TREE OF LIFE! YEEAAHH Dawg! Check dat shit out.
But really...I've read countless theories on this, and the Tree of Life theory seemed closest to me. Even if it's not right, there's some interesting stuff to be learned from it.
I'm done plugging now. I know that was a horrible and shallow thing to do, so you don't need to flame me...I already know.
Eulogizer's interpretation of the "choose one or ten" line seems by far the most logical. All this talk about the Tree of Life and binary numbers are just bullshit.
What do you call the tree of life superimposed over the man on the cover of the Salival boxset? Bullshit?
