Always been interested in this idea Adam talked about in 2006

"Something we are really into...to tap into peoples subconscious, you break things down to the most basic ideas or elements, to a sound, or shape, or color or vibration, then you build it back up. The base thing gets the subconcious, and you get the subconcious of the person who knows nothing about it, so they relate to that feeling we were going through when we were writing."

I'd be interested in everyones opinion and ideas on what he is saying. Essentially is Adam suggesting the band operates on the idea that a certain guitar riff, or sound, or odd shape in their art, is designed to be of some spiritual purpose to get people to get thinking about things in a new way, or to become more spiritually aware?

Probably not even in a new way, I believe it's to get people thinking in the first place.
Preferably for themselves.

definitely. it's the music of the spheres. fibonnaci figured out just how basic sound can cut in upon itself to create the harmonies that our own (golden mean) earballs readily interpret as music! ab ortu, ad mortem. and just affixing ideas of sacred geometry, the platonic solids and what they once symbolized in antiquity, or understanding the spectral properties of light and vibrational/aural energies ...can get you far with tool. it's not about gay sex, drug references, or l. ron hubbard. that shit is too local to our time and place, especially when politically oriented. all of that, including maynard's entire vineyard venture, is but a metaphor for the natural, the biological, which gets at to reflect the core of the human condition. water, fire, stormy weather, king's mountain, bones, queen b's, it goes on and on and on ...and i think it is all purposefully complex - you know, like poly-rhythms, deep harmonic and multi-layered resonances, etc ...to reflect the basics. to show how much and how often we tend to overlook the very real, pulsating, breathing, blooming, single moment.

hope justin will use some more fretless and danny some gamelan on the next studio-output...and weird psychedelic metal! sry, didn`t know where to post...this thread is great!

+ a guest-appearance of aloke dutta :D

Yes in occult practice there is a system of communication with the subconscious. And being an occult practitioner i can attest that there are several symbols in the art work lyrics and music of TOOL that has direct influence on the subconscious. A book called Liber 777 will provide a better explanation, but my simple offering of knowledge will provide some insight.

First Gametria..... In the Hebrew language the Letters also represent numerical value.
a=1 b=2.... ect. for instance The Hebrew word Love = 13 so also does the word unity = 13 there for love = unity. If you add the numerical value of Mother and Father together it equals the value of the Word Child. After evaluation of this numerical word association A pattern emerges, and some interesting mysteries of the universe are revealed, one of them being a way to communicate with the subconscious through symbols. The kabalah will also provide some insight.

So what has Tool been fiddling around with in our gourds? Well mostly encouragement of self discovery, for the most part. From this point only immersion in the study of The Occult Will provide more answers. I have Found that people From the OTO body in my location have been so gracious as to fill me in on some of the mysteries as to what some of these symbols are and mean.

93 ;)

haha, slam.

ya just like a neurologist can explain stuff about the brain, but if you want better understanding you have to go study neurology your self. There is no power in ignorance or short cuts.

sooooooo... why did you just compare what you do to what a neurologist does? i mean, you could've gone with "shit farmers talking a bunch of shit, but if you want better understanding you have to go study shit your self". and who doesn't already understand that life lesson, honestly? (psst ...nnnnobody on this forum). nobody just sits around expecting to become enlightened - we all at least "dabble" one way or another. go ahead and assume that our own passions are pretty important, perhaps even sacred, to us.

hell, even just "opening up to the universe" may be enough. traveling, reading, contemplating, communicating, meditating, wandering, breathing, dreaming, tripping. if we're receptive to whatever may be, and what EVER may be, then whatever it is (or that will be) will surely come to us ...when the moment is right ...and in various ways (or from various reflections of the single source) - not just yours.

so kiiiiindly curtail that smug "And being an occult practitioner" ego of yours - because we're not weak, ignorant, or looking for shortcuts just because you attend OTO lodge meetings. again, i don't mean to degrade that venture at all ...but this was a general "Tool using the subconcious" thread about what adam mentioned concerning the synthesis/direction of their art. musicismylife78: "I'd be interested in everyones opinion and ideas on what he is saying". if you've got a lead then water that damn horse, don't just beat it to death with homework assignments.

love is the law

point

"...shall be the whole of the law"...sounds like ehm a sort of hmm shortcut?
who really thinks he really needs much more than this (ignorant) words is (on the path of) the/a fool. sorry, just my opinion, i did not want to interrupt your elitist discussion about the debate who is worthy being "enlightened"...after all staring at the sun and feeling love isn`t THAT hard at all...
+ it should be about how the "enlightened one" helps society and all sentient beings- some talk about how cool it is to have some "special occult knowledge" is in my opinion pretty much the oppisite of that and in the worst case comes from a mind greedy for power...a thin line...correct me if i am wrong...

peace!

which symbols are in just the music? could you- as an occult practitioner- elaborate that? i mean JUST the music- no artwork or words...i wonder especially about that point of your statement...what does the OTO say about I,IV and V and 4/4, 16/8 etc. and the subconscious- if they really have knowledge about that (as your statement somehow implies)?
in my opinion such things are subjective but those occult guys seem to have an answer for everything so i am just curious...so much counting and still does their music feel so flowing...maybe its just chaos-magick (as if i would know anything about it) or just explain how music can be symbolic...sorry for my noob-questions...

peace (again) ;)

sry- i guess i have to find it out- no offense...

[QUOTE=dancingflame;3086684]which symbols are in just the music? could you- as an occult practitioner- elaborate that? i mean JUST the music- no artwork or words...i wonder especially about that point of your statement...what does the OTO say about I,IV and V and 4/4, 16/8 etc. and the subconscious- if they really have knowledge about that (as your statement somehow implies)?
in my opinion such things are subjective but those occult guys seem to have an answer for everything so i am just curious...so much counting and still does their music feel so flowing...maybe its just chaos-magick (as if i would know anything about it) or just explain how music can be symbolic...sorry for my noob-questions...

peace (again) ;)[/QUOTE

Chaos and order are different degrees of the same phenomenon, they are part of the same mobius strip. First off

And second.. as for symbols....there are shapes that come out of certain cord and riff progressions tool uses, for instance any guitar player will find his hand working a Uncursal hexagram while playing Third eye. Specifically during the part accompanying these lyrics. "So good to see you once again, i thought that you were hiding from me and you thought that i had run away chasing the tail of Dogma".

There are certain Polly rhythmic time signatures that have an effect on the subconscious, its summon certain kinds of energy into the main consciousness.

The occult or thelema isn't about worshiping some ancient bozo who built a pyramid. its about discovering your internal and personal nature and following that. its about testing the mind scientifically, and coming to the realization that subjective reality is only magic markers. and its you that colors your reality.

as i mentioned in the problem 8-thread: i will have to dig deeper.
not only for personal development these topics are very valuable but also as tool does its kind of a blueprint- a very simplifying statement, i know.
since i know this project it amazes me and i cannot exactly tell in which way. when i saw them live for the first time (2001) i only watched the screens and felt like there was something going on resonating with deep levels of my own as you say "main consciousness"- its just fucking big.
i guess danny or his part is very deep inside the (poly-)rhythmic, k`now in african and south-american (brazilian) societies rhythms were, are and will be used to summon ancestors, demons, ghosts, angels, beings, whatever...if i am not wrong for example in the macumba-tradition there are particular rhythms invoking particular entities.
well- those entities could be "real" or just manifestations of the own subconsciousness. as i understand it occultism is about "accepting" that it is subconscious and work with it from there on. so, as my noob-mind combines: a certain demon represents a certain archetypical "feeling", "place" or whatever you wanna call it. being into it can tighten those places (one very literal example for me would be in pushit: "i am somewhere i don`t wanna be..." embedded into sounds which kinda describe that feeling musically) and help one exploring the own "self", the (sub-)conscious realms and basically your own life.
now here is my question/ point of critique/ dilemma: maybe some pop-casting-show-idiot will have SOME effect on the subconscious effect, being transferred into the main consciousness (or not) or explained in another way: anything "rings" within.
BUT the tool-familie, lodge, "philosophy", "art", whatever is VERY honest and very good with it using what other people miss (that art can really have [self-] healing powers).
without a "map" like a bit "understanding" in those areas one will either think "cool music" (but doesn`t get the "effect") and nothing else will happen OR someone else will feel kind of uncomfortable because of the places of the own psyche or subconscious that was revealed to some part of his being through those sounds.
tool are probably beyond that but manage a balancing act: the artwork (videos, music, lyrics) is indeed a tool to dig deeper and (as a very well written occult novel) yet the effect can be missing to people who can make nothing out of it.
resonating on a deep conscious level MUST have an effect- you practically can`t escape the effect. for that matter for example psi or ambient music work on the same level but tool kinda made a artistic masterful (kiiind of) pop-phenomenon out of it because it somehow simply "works", they`re filling a place in the musical world that has only tool then for a looong time nothing and then everything else. imo cuz they put all that in a kind of hyper-rock-context and one can still draw something from that occult novel without having knowledge of the depth, insight and knowledge that happened on the artists side loong before we ever even heard a tone of that "band" ("i sold out long before you ever even heard my name..."...before i write more i use another shortcut by saying its a bless, an incident in life, "higher power" or just good fate for some people who really like "digging" that they teamed up with alex grey. maybe more later...:)