Shit man, by the time you got there, there was no way I could use my phone without security biting up my leg. I hope I understood correct in that you didn't get there until 8:30 or so?
Does anyone remember the Woodlands show back in '01, when security was so tight that most everyone missed Tricky's set completely and quite a few more didn't get in until after Tool started? I know SunKing was there. That would have been something to bitch about. Compared to that show, last night was a cakewalk to get into. It's not all Tool, it's also the venue.
I was at that show too. I was one of the unfortunate few who missed all of Tricky and even some of TOOL. We missed all of The Grudge, and part of Stinkfist. However, I thought last night's security was worse than it was in '01. I go to a lot of shows, and that was some of the most detailed searching I've ever seen.
Anyone see the dude with the pirate shirt and the eyepatch?
I agree with the fellow who said that if the show got cancelled it'd be a bummer as well. I am glad we got a show, however, had I known it was going to be a sub-par show (and par for Tool is very low, because they're TOOL), I would've chosen a postponing of the show. For full price for a ticket, we deserved to see Tool at 100%, not 75.
Yes I definitely agree that a cancellation would have been better than last night's show. It's unfortunate that things worked out the way they did. Maynard obviously didn't know how bad the show would turn out until it was too late for them to cancel.
Shit man, by the time you got there, there was no way I could use my phone without security biting up my leg. I hope I understood correct in that you didn't get there until 8:30 or so?
eh, I was with other people and we didnt leave at the time I anticipated, not really their fault but you know how group things go. I got in line about 8:15 and took me about 15 minutes to get to the gate and 10 seconds to get in. Perhaps its because I didnt give them any attitude, I dunno. Plenty of people snuck weed in.
The woman searching me was absolutely NOT friendly. I had: ID, Credit Card, Cell phone, and lipblam, my ticket and that was it. I'm talking about the security business in general. It's bullshit and totally violates your civil rights. The 4th amendment reads " The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." in case you are unfamiliar. Funny how this ceases to be true when corporations are involved. Kind of like a microcosm of the country as a whole. Asking people to leave behind unsafe objects: knives, guns, etc is a reasonable request. Forbidding me to have my purse and asking me to pull the waistline of my pants back so they can see inside my pants is going over the line.
I've been to way more hard-core shows i.e. Slayer (5 times), Ministry, etc. where the crowd goes bananas and the security was "Can I see inside your purse" and that was it. If you want to see riff raff, go see a Slayer show, but then again, even Slayer seems more appreciative of their fans.
And optimistic-pessimist - great minds think alike. :)
Your "blow me" comment was uncalled for, especially coming from someone of your assumed age (20 +). Yes, it was annoying that we couldn't take certain items in there like blankets or purses, but in all honesty they are trying to keep us safe. Heck, Maynard got hit by a water bottle the concert before this one.
I honestly think you need to chill out about this--one 20-second slightly-invasive search (nothing worse than what I've experienced going overseas in airports) isn't the end of the world. Once again, it was annoying. But it wasn't for no reason.
I was at that show too. I was one of the unfortunate few who missed all of Tricky and even some of TOOL. We missed all of The Grudge, and part of Stinkfist. However, I thought last night's security was worse than it was in '01. I go to a lot of shows, and that was some of the most detailed searching I've ever seen.
Ok, maybe we went in different entrances or you had a guy who was a little overzealous. I thought it was much lighter - walked up, lifted up my pants legs, lifted up my shirt so they could see my waistline, got scanned by the wand, and walked in. Last time I remember much more.
I don't necessarily agree that last night should have been cancelled, or postponed. Of course, I would love it if they come back when they redo the San Antonio show, but think about it this way: you got a really unique experience as far as Tool shows in that there were a lot of instrumental parts that maybe you wouldn't have heard otherwise. Because Maynard stopped a few times, the music got to breathe a little more than usual.
I was also at the show at the Compaq Center you mentioned earlier, when he walked off during The Patient, and we got an abbreviated setlist. Yeah, it was a little bit of a bummer, but then they came back a few months later and played in Beaumont, which was hands down the best Tool show I've personally seen so far. Someone else also spoke about it earlier in the thread. That was the first night I heard H. live, and that performance of Triad with Meshuggah's drummer was beyond description, but those weren't the only highlights. Because of those two shows, I decided that next time I wouldn't have any expectations and I also resolved to not read any setlists beforehand. Of course I caved and read setlists beforehand, but I still had a damn good time last night.
I know quite a few people on here drove or flew in from other places, or bought tickets to multiple shows, but those were your choices. I'm not saying that was a bad choice at all, if I could afford it I'd do the same thing, but what I'm saying is you can't really blame the band for that. Sorry you didn't get all that you came for, but like I said, you got a unique experience.
Haha... A "unique experience" is REALLY putting a positive spin on this. The kind of unique experience people are looking for would be more like, "Oh man I was at that show where they decided to play Flood right after the Grudge at the start of the show, and they didn't do that ANYWHERE else."... as opposed to, "Oh man I was at that show where Maynard could barely stand up and had to have the crowd sing for him, and he didn't do that ANYWHERE else. It was so special."
... and as for the Houston -> Beaumont comparison... I was at both of those shows too. Beaumont was on a completely different tour. It really shouldn't be compared to or linked to the Houston show. They were unrelated, other than being nearby in the same state. They came back around and played smaller market cities on the second tour in '02, and they'll do the same on the next tour in '07. If they play Beaumont, it won't be a makeup for last night's fiasco... it'll be another tour, another show, another money-making opportunity.
Tool postponed the San Antonio show because I'm sure that Maynard doesn't want to dissapoint anymore. If you guys are such hardcore TOOL fans then most of you complaining should get tickets to the other two Texas shows so that Maynard can be healthy and you won't be fucking bitchy.
I should get tickets to other shows so that I'm happy that I saw a show that should've been postponed?
well, I HAVE bought tickets to the other shows.
and I HOPE that if he's still sick, that they're postponed.
I enjoyed the show but I definitely understand and agree with people who did not and who think the show should've been canceled. Concerts aren't fruit- when you get a bad one now and then you have the right to complain. It's your money, and if you think you've been slighted when it could've been avoided, then speak up. It's not bitching. Bitching is complaining about something that couldn't have been any other way. There was a choice made to go on with the show. Regardless of the good intentions, it was obviously the wrong choice.
__________________ Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence
Haha... A "unique experience" is REALLY putting a positive spin on this. The kind of unique experience people are looking for would be more like, "Oh man I was at that show where they decided to play Flood right after the Grudge at the start of the show, and they didn't do that ANYWHERE else."... as opposed to, "Oh man I was at that show where Maynard could barely stand up and had to have the crowd sing for him, and he didn't do that ANYWHERE else. It was so special."
Alright, so we have different definitions of "unique experience." I would have enjoy the first one more than the second one obviously, but would have taken something new away from both.
Quote:
Originally Posted by optimistic-pessimist
... and as for the Houston -> Beaumont comparison... I was at both of those shows too. Beaumont was on a completely different tour. It really shouldn't be compared to or linked to the Houston show. They were unrelated, other than being nearby in the same state. They came back around and played smaller market cities on the second tour in '02, and they'll do the same on the next tour in '07. If they play Beaumont, it won't be a makeup for last night's fiasco... it'll be another tour, another show, another money-making opportunity.
I didn't mean to imply that the Beaumont show was a make-up date for the Compaq Center show - you're right, it was another tour. But for me, it more than made up for any disappointment I felt after the Compaq Center show. That's why I compared the two.
Look, I know a lot of you are upset, and have a right to be. I only live about 15 minutes from the venue from last night, so it wasn't a big deal for me as far as trekking into another city just for the concert. And I know how passionate about music everyone is on here. As an aside to optimistic-pessimist, your post on The Spiral (yeah, I lurk a lot) about Deadboy and the Elephantmen made me go check them out, and then feel pretty stupid because I've owned "When the Kite String Pops" for years, listed it as one of my favorite albums, saw Acid Bath live with D.R.I. about 10 years ago, considered myself a pretty big fan, and had no idea the other band existed. Never thanked you for that, so thank you. Back to the point, don't let it bother you or deter you from going to see shows in the future if it's something you like, whether it's Tool or anyone else. Shit happens, people get sick, some shows are better than others. We could all debate all day and night whether or not last night's show should have been cancelled or postponed, but it wasn't, so all we can do now is look forward to what the next one brings.
Hehe... Deadboy and Acid Bath references make me happy. And you're welcome...
But yes... that is definitely true. This experience shouldn't keep anyone from going to anything in the future, because you just don't know how special the NEXT one might be. Why do you think I go to so many shows? It's for fear of missing something truly special.
Edit: Oh and @resonance. - Blair is a weird-looking, pasty white guy with stringy blond hair... last time I checked.
OK.....let's start with something that no one else here has really touched on yet.
Isis......sucks........ass.
They were absolutely terrible. Nothing about them made me think that they were a band worthy to open for Kelly Clarkson, let alone Tool. After a song or two, we finally got up to walk around. We could take no more.
As for Tool, we flew in over 800 miles from eastern New Mexico just to see the show, and we had mixed feelings. The excitement of actually being at a Tool show and the venue itself was fantastic. Houston really is a great town to see a show. The band was RIGHT ON. I've read other reviews from other shows that said "Adam missed this part," or "Justin fucked up a little on that part," but tonight, it was almost as though they knew they had to make up for Maynard being under the weather. They nailed everything. And I'll take Maynard a little under the weather ANY day. Even if he wasn't singing, he was still up there fighting through it, and that says a hell of a lot about him in my book.
In closing, I would just like to say to Holly and Holly, the stripper show you both put on in front of us there will definitely be remembered for many lonely nights to cum! Thanks for letting us touch da heiny!
the people in arizona didn't complain this much about maynard being sick. you guys got to see tool. doesn't anyone realize how awesome that is? maynard cant predict the severity of his sickness just like you cant. 16,000 people were there to see a band they might not have many more opportunities to see and if they hadn't gotten to see themright then and now there would have been some shit going down. they played their best, maynard APOLOGIZED for being sick and then the band quickly postponed the next show so that they wouldnt dissapoint anyone else. lots of people would have gone to that show and loved the hell out of it just because it was tool and tool is badass. you can't tell me that the experience wasnt worth the money... if it had gotten postponed you same people would have just bitched more than you already have.
tool has fucking rocked for over a decade and put out quality shows time after time after time and (specifically) the people who are talking about how they wont spend money to see Tool again, because of one or even a handful of bad shows, are fucking ridiculous.
Nothing about [Isis] made me think that they were a band worthy to open for Kelly Clarkson, let alone Tool.
... nothing except for the fact that TOOL likes them and specifically picked them to come on tour with them... jackass. This happens time and time and time again. TOOL picks bands that they like, so that hopefully they'll expose their own fans to something new or different, and yet I constantly hear how much people hate these bands.
I'm not even trying to force you to like them, because that would be pointless and silly. I'm just saying, have some fucking respect. Until I see YOUR band onstage opening for TOOL, then I don't think you can legitimately put down any bands that are up there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecce Iuvencae
if it had gotten postponed you same people would have just bitched more than you already have.
Actually a lot of the complaints on here have been pretty reasonable and mild... with a few exceptions. I think that most people on here certainly would have been disappointed with a cancellation, myself included, but would have eventually realized, sooner or later, that a cancellation is better than a half-assed performance. Our fast-paced, instant-gratification society definitely makes it hard not to say "I WANT MY TOOL NOW DAMNIT," but I think most people on here have enough patience and foresight to see that if Maynard can't sing, then waiting for a show isn't so bad.
like i said before... maynard must have thought he could give at least a half assed performance. he was singing his ass off during stinkfist and he still managed to strain out "NOT ENOUGH, I NEED MORE..." After that it seemed like it faded out of him. He was sick. He must have thought he could do it because HE DID TRY... In case you didn't notice. I understand the dissapointment. I was dissapointed. But it wasn't shit. It was still tool and theres still 4 members in that band. 3 of them were flawless... one of them was sick. There were thousands of people there. You can't just send em home. They had to battle through it and they did a damn fine job.
Alright guys.......I have some pretty interesting things to share with you. In case you aren't aware, Maynard actually has a myspace site that he actually uses. You should check it out in any case, but there is something about his site that is relavent to our discussions. If you look at his blogs, you will find that he made an entry on the day of our concert (monday 9-11-06). This is the first blog entry he has made in a month or so. I believe this blog is named "Bakersfield not from" or something to that effect. He describes a dream he had that I can't help but think is related to our discussions on the bad concert. He makes some references to "people with disabilities" and "trying to overcome ang giving it thier all." He then gives references to "casting stones." Interestingly, he doesn't mention being sick at all but I think this is classic Maynard using metaphors. He talks about "dreams telling the future" in abstract ways. Just thought this was pretty interesting and could give us something more productive to think about than how pissed we are about the concert. You guys check this out and tell me what you think.
The link is myspace.com/censorshipisacancer
In any case, I had fun hanging out with you guys on Monday and being in company of some other TOOL fans.
^ Good post. Would you mind posting the content of the blog? I'm out of town until next Monday, and this computer won't let me access my Myspace account for some reason. Actually, I think that anyone who doesn't have a Myspace account wouldn't be able to see the blog... so post it for them too.
the people in arizona didn't complain this much about maynard being sick.
they played their best, maynard APOLOGIZED for being sick and then the band quickly postponed the next show so that they wouldnt dissapoint anyone else.
you can't tell me that the experience wasnt worth the money... if it had gotten postponed you same people would have just bitched more than you already have.
Arizona didnt complain as much because:
1. Arizonas setlist wasnt short
2. Arizona got to see Wings
3. Arizona hit the guy in the head with a water bottle
When I buy a ticket to an event I shouldn't have to think about it like im gambling. I shouldn't have to say to myself okay theres a 70% chance I'm going to get a 2 hour show, and all the musicians playing like I know them to play and theres a 30% chance I'm going to get an 85 minute show, half the vocals, and an apology.
At 80 dollars face value tickets, the experience wasn't worth the money. I saw Tool in beaumont, much better experience, half the price. Seriously, there hasn't been 100% inflation since 2003.
Interestingly, he doesn't mention being sick at all but I think this is classic Maynard using metaphors. He talks about "dreams telling the future" in abstract ways. Just thought this was pretty interesting and could give us something more productive to think about than how pissed we are about the concert. You guys check this out and tell me what you think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maynard
About a week ago I had one of my dreams. I was an M.C. at the special olympics tryouts. At some point in the dream it was my job to announce a winner. I was handed a purple envelope by a white dove which reeked of beer and peanut farts. The dove, not the envelope. Anyway. I've never known a dove to giggle but this one did. Which should have been my first clue. I guess I was just caught up in how hard these challenged humans were trying and I missed the obvious. So I open the envelope and it's another sticky note from BOB.
"Judge not lest ye be judged. Unless you are in a desolate valley filled with drunk and irrational knuckle dragging apes with shaved heads and PMS. Then feel free to cast the first of many stones. Amen."
From the Book of DOUCHEBAG Chapter 9, Verse 5
I am inclined to think hes talking about Arizona and the water bottle incident. He describes his location as "desolate valley" which Phoenix is, and "casting the first of many stones" where stone is water bottle.
Makes sense. He just posted a blog actually and it states his current mood as "sick" with a distressed frowny face. It's him explaining the correct way to pronounce Puscifer, like anyone on the planet couldn't figure it out. Also, it appears he was listening to 'Baby Got Back' at the time of posting. I wasn't sure what to make of this then I saw it was released in '92. Maybe Maynard's trying to get in touch with what made him awesome back in 1992? Sir Mix-a-Lot might have been an influence (?)
Very disappointed with this performance. Drove from New Orleans to see the show and I am a HUGE Tool fan. It just really sucks that Maynard was sick. Something that also upsets me to no end is the fact that I had to drive to Texas in order to see Tool. New Orleans used to always be included in tour schedules...not just for Tool, but for many big bands. I do understand that last years hurricaines F'd some stuff up here, but we have many venues here that are in operation. Too many Tool fans here have to feel the same as I. For instance, Voodoo fest this Halloween would have been a perfect opportunity for them to stop by. Last time Tool headlined that venue was absolutely AMAZING. I check the tour schedule daily in high hopes that on October 29th they decide to add Voodoo fest before going back to Europe. Hopefully someone reads this post and says 'How can we forget about New Orleans?'
Arizona didnt complain as much because:
1. Arizonas setlist wasnt short
2. Arizona got to see Wings
3. Arizona hit the guy in the head with a water bottle
When I buy a ticket to an event I shouldn't have to think about it like im gambling. I shouldn't have to say to myself okay theres a 70% chance I'm going to get a 2 hour show, and all the musicians playing like I know them to play and theres a 30% chance I'm going to get an 85 minute show, half the vocals, and an apology.
At 80 dollars face value tickets, the experience wasn't worth the money. I saw Tool in beaumont, much better experience, half the price. Seriously, there hasn't been 100% inflation since 2003.
Pretty absurd.
You take a gamble anytime you do anything. You buy a ticket to a Rockets game, and do you complain when you get there to find that McGrady is sick and although he's playing half-assed, he's still giving it all he has? Would you feel cheated?
No, I didnt, and I was just irritated when I wrote that. But the point is still there, that you can agree to the terms or you can go the fuck home. No one forced her or anyone else into that venue.
You buy a ticket to a Rockets game, and do you complain when you get there to find that McGrady is sick and although he's playing half-assed, he's still giving it all he has? Would you feel cheated?
Eh... not exactly the best analogy. 1 member of a 5-man team that has 10 subs is not the same as 1 member of a 4-man team with... no subs.
If you're arguing against some Maynard fanboy who went solely because he's in the band, then you might have an argument. "He went out and gave it his best and you got to see him onstage... stop bitching." But I for one go to shows to hear the music... the songs... as they were written. This includes the vocals... all of them... particularly the most passionate and intense lines.
You take a gamble anytime you do anything. You buy a ticket to a Rockets game, and do you complain when you get there to find that McGrady is sick and although he's playing half-assed, he's still giving it all he has? Would you feel cheated?
This isn't a sports game. If McGrady is sick and playing half ass, odds are he isnt playing and someone that is 100% is playing. Substitutions are made. The full 4 quarters of the game is still played. You pay to see a sports game played by the players on the team. Just as for a concert you pay to see a musical performance done by the players of the band. If there arn't enough players to play the show because one of them is 50% the concert is "forfeited" and rescheduled or the money is returned. Since there are only 4 players in this band, and no depth for the lead singer the band should have "forfeited" and rescheduled the performance for another day.
Argument by analogy is always faulty and unproductive.
This was my 16th Tool show. I am an avid fan. BUT....the fact is these guys are making an enormous amount of money and we are paying it. They are professionals and we simply did not receive the product we paid for. If Maynard could not even give us one complete song at even 80%, he should have rescheduled the show or cancelled and refunded our money, which as everyone here knows, was a good chunk of change.
Maynard apologized, so what, he should have called in sick. He still walked with our money. To me an apology from Maynard, a professional, does not equal $80 of my hard earned money. They are a great band but don't be so blinded by your admiration for them that you are also blinded to the fact that you were short changed. They owe every Woodlands ticket holder a show at no additional charge. Even Tool needs to be held responsible for their business.
Eh... not exactly the best analogy. 1 member of a 5-man team that has 10 subs is not the same as 1 member of a 4-man team with... no subs.
If you're arguing against some Maynard fanboy who went solely because he's in the band, then you might have an argument. "He went out and gave it his best and you got to see him onstage... stop bitching." But I for one go to shows to hear the music... the songs... as they were written. This includes the vocals... all of them... particularly the most passionate and intense lines.
I can understand this. It isnt as if you've bitched about anything anyway.
Yes, I thought his sickness took a lot away from the experience. How could it not? But I cant bring myself to get bitter about it because everyone in the band gave us everything they had, asking for more is not only selfish, but really, really retarded. It is not retarded to ask for a postponement, but then you would have all the out of towners bitching because they made the blank trip. Who do you please?
I'm not bitter... but simply stating my opinion of the situation. I know that we will probably never get what we'd like to get out of this situation, and I won't be clinging to it, as I guess you imagine I will. But I've said it before, and I'll say it again. This is my opinion of the situation, and I'm going to express it. I also won't sit here idly and let someone else tell me that I'm wrong for having that opinion.
I'm one of the biggest fans of this band and their music that I know, but I'm still not beyond questioning them and their actions when I feel that something is wrong. The end.
Edit: And I sure as hell am an out-of-towner. I'm here in Texas all week. I'd choose postponing all three... and that's not just hindsight talking.
But I cant bring myself to get bitter about it because everyone in the band gave us everything they had, asking for more is not only selfish, but really, really retarded. It is not retarded to ask for a postponement, but then you would have all the out of towners bitching because they made the blank trip. Who do you please?
Well, Tool is a band dedicated to quality of music. On many occasions they have said that the reason they dont shoot out albums like bullets out of a machine gun is because they want to take their time to put both quality and new prespectives in their work. For a band that takes so much time and dedication to quality product, you'd think they would hold the same standard for their shows.
And another thing that I think is fucked up. This is supposed to be their main tour yet it cost a shit load more and had a shit load less material than the "warmup" tour. When you say to people relax about the sold old scalper only warmup tour we will be touring again in the fall, why don't you try and deliver something that is worth a damn.
Don't worry TOOL will be hitting the South and Southeast in 2007 as they will be going just about everywhere.
Besides the New Orleans Arena, there are not many venues back up to par that could host a TOOL show.
Optimist-Pessimist - How good was that Baton Rouge show. My wife and I were fortunate enough to see them 4 times that year (Houston, New Orleans, Pensicola, and Baton Rouge).
Keep you hopes up and mind positive as it can only get better from here.
This TOOL show may have not been up to par, but it was still better than most bands at 100%.
To the poor democrat who cried about my comment, I assume you support the Welfare system, money sucking lazy $##T%kers who sit on their porch and have 10 babies before they're 20 so the federal govt. can provide for them.
If Kerry was in office, we may not be at war, but our country would be controlled by a pussy.
Well, I was on Walton and Johnson this morning complaining about our so called show and you know what they said? I got what I paid, for that "bands nowadays don't have the same ethics as bands of their generation" I hate to say it but it's true, I agree with everybody that they should have cancelled, yea I would have been upset about having to wait to see another show, but at least I wouldn't have been this upset about going to this one. But they also made me laugh a little by telling me I was shit out of luck, and that I should take my chapped red ass and dip it in the Woodlands water. It has made me feel better to vent, but for me anyway it is time to let go. This will be my last Tool show unless I can convince someone else to buy the ticket for the next one. I for one don't think that buying a concert ticket should be a gamble, and if it is I am going to have someone else take the risk.
__________________ I think fast, I talk fast, and I need you guys to act fast if you want to get out of this. So pretty please, with sugar on top, clean the fuckin' car.
I can understand this. It isnt as if you've bitched about anything anyway.
Yes, I thought his sickness took a lot away from the experience. How could it not? But I cant bring myself to get bitter about it because everyone in the band gave us everything they had, asking for more is not only selfish, but really, really retarded. It is not retarded to ask for a postponement, but then you would have all the out of towners bitching because they made the blank trip. Who do you please?
This is a ridiculous statement. You were promised prime rib and force fed ground chuck yet you still thank the chef. In the words of another great influence "there is no other pill to take so swallow the one that makes you ill."
Is this not the kind of sheepish behavior that Tool has preached against throughout the years?
It is niether selfish nor retarded to expect what you pay for.
This is a ridiculous statement. You were promised prime rib and force fed ground chuck yet you still thank the chef. In the words of another great influence "there is no other pill to take so swallow the one that makes you ill."
Is this not the kind of sheepish behavior that Tool has preached against throughout the years?
It is niether selfish nor retarded to expect what you pay for.
Damn, man u need to realx and stop being a bitch, you just saw the greatest band in the world and you still have something to cry about, you sound like the real sheep bitching just like everyone in the world bitches. Stop being such a pussy.
hahah san antonio got postponed cause of their sickness, see what happens for all the bitching u guys are doing, well i guess it worked but not for u bitches, haha thats funny, people are gunna br crying even more now on this page.
So if you go to a movie... And one characters dialog randomly cuts out throughout the show, and you dont get to see a couple major scenes of the movie because the movie reel guy didn't feel like it because his middle and ring finger hurt from a night of SUFIing at the Dane Cook show (who performed even when he was sick and performed a full show)... you wouldn't bitch about it and try to get your money back?
And since you are a Mod, I'm sure this post will stay up for about as long as it takes for you to read it. Right?
Chill out man. Posts are rarely deleted here (unless in they're out of place). We all feel a little cheated, but quit lashing out at everyone else. You've posted like, what, twice?
