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Old 06-20-2007, 03:30 PM   #41
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Re: H. stands for.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoveLady View Post
Wait....so what his son is "Considerately killing" him?
Ah Gad...
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Old 06-26-2007, 04:24 PM   #42
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Re: H. stands for.......

HOPE
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Old 06-29-2007, 09:58 PM   #43
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Re: H. stands for.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by lllvllledusa View Post

OHH and before I forget.

"I could have cried then.
I should have cried then."

Is this a connection to Lachrymology?

I don't know about lachrymology.

"In the summer of 1948, Ronald P. Vincent, a crop-spray contractor, moved from Kansas to Hollywood after his wife had been dismembered in a bizarre snow plough accident. Inspired by the unrelenting pain he felt, Vincent penned his first and only book, 'A Joyful Guide to Lachrymology'"

Kinda funny that no one has actually seen this book and it is non-existent in the Library of Congress.

Ronald P. Vincent and L. Ron Hubbard. Both have a form of 'Ron" and an initial.

Do a search on lachrymology and you won't find anything that is not related to the band. I think it's all a big joke.
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Old 07-02-2007, 12:51 PM   #44
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Re: H. stands for.......

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Originally Posted by DoveLady View Post
Wait....so what his son is "Considerately killing" him?
No, you have to think deeper than that. For example: Maynard's extreme love for his son may be killing him.
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Old 07-02-2007, 07:51 PM   #45
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Re: H. stands for.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpoling13 View Post
I don't know about lachrymology.

"In the summer of 1948, Ronald P. Vincent, a crop-spray contractor, moved from Kansas to Hollywood after his wife had been dismembered in a bizarre snow plough accident. Inspired by the unrelenting pain he felt, Vincent penned his first and only book, 'A Joyful Guide to Lachrymology'"

Kinda funny that no one has actually seen this book and it is non-existent in the Library of Congress.

Ronald P. Vincent and L. Ron Hubbard. Both have a form of 'Ron" and an initial.

Do a search on lachrymology and you won't find anything that is not related to the band. I think it's all a big joke.
Yes I already know all that. I have no clue why they are joking around about it but the concept is not a bad one and Tool does show these ideas in so many of their songs. "The essential ideas behind Lachrymology are quite simple, the science teaches that a human cannot very well develop emotionally, mentally, or spiritually without the experience of pain"(Got that from a website).The whole idea behind Lachrymology is not new. Even carl jung talks a lot about it.

Here are a few quotes I found by carl jung on the importance of pain and how we should not hide from this pain, but instead face it, accept it, and treat it as important as all of the things that make you happy:

"A man who has not passed through the inferno of his passions has never overcome them."

"Even a happy life cannot be without a measure of darkness, and the word happy would lose its meaning if it were not balanced by sadness. It is far better take things as they come along with patience and equanimity."

"There is no coming to consciousness without pain."

"Understanding does not cure evil, but it is a definite help, inasmuch as one can cope with a comprehensible darkness."

"We cannot change anything until we accept it. Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses."

"We deem those happy who from the experience of life have learnt to bear its ills without being overcome by them."


The line:

"I could have cried then.
I should have cried then."

is basically saying that he wishes that he didnt hold in and hide from his pain and emotions, instead he wishes that he just let all the pain out and accepted it while in his past so that he could have been closer to healing himself even more for the present time. Accepting the pain allowed him to become more conscious of his shadow and get closer to finding his true self.

Does it make sense? I'm tired.
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Old 07-03-2007, 12:14 AM   #46
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Re: H. stands for.......

i would like to disect the opening lines with u as a whole, instead of breaking them up.
wuts coming thru is alive
wuts holding up is a mirror
but wuts singing songs is a snake
and hes looking to turn my piss to wine
theyre both totally void of hate
but killing me just the same
the snake behind me hisses what my damage could have been
my blood before makes me open up my heart again
and i feel this coming over like a storm again, considerately

mk, now, wuts coming thru is alive - his son.
wuts holding up is a mirror - looking at his son is like looking in the mirror.
wuts singing songs is a snake, looking to turn his piss to wine - his negativity has appeared on his shoulder again, trying to get him to do his usual habit, shut in all feelings.
they are both totally void of hate, but killing him just the same - both his son (the positive influence) and the snake (the negative influence) have an agenda, but they are killing him equally, i.e. they both weigh on him equally, not 1 without the other.
the snake behind him hisses what his damage could have been - the snake is reminding him of all the bad things that have happend
his blood before him makes him open up his heart again - this is the line that ties it all together, by his blood, he means his bloodline, his son, the birth of his son has caused him to open up his heart again and forget his trust issues.
and he feels it coming over like a storm again, considerately - the feelings come rushing over him, considerately.

there u go, i think u were all trying to interpret it in too little of chunks, u need to look at the verse as a whole, instead of just deciphering 1 aspect of it.
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Old 07-04-2007, 10:20 AM   #47
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Re: H. stands for.......

Thanks lllvllledusa for those quotes. I'm not debunking the idea behind lachrymology. I think it makes a lot of sense. But at the same time, I think the story of behind it of how it came about is funny, don't you think?

Holy Grail, I like your interpretation.
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Old 07-08-2007, 07:39 AM   #48
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Re: H. stands for.......

Perhaps this song has more to do with the weighing of possibilities. The two sides are the angel and devil one ur shoulder showing you the consequences of what you may choose. The days away considerately killing me might have more to due the conceince(or however u spell it) taking its toll on you after you have made ur decision. Just an idea!!!
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Old 07-26-2007, 06:33 PM   #49
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Re: H. stands for.......

some ideas: Bill HICKS, James HERBERT Keenan, Devo H.
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Old 07-26-2007, 07:24 PM   #50
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Re: H. stands for.......

this song is definitely, on the first level, about a romantic love.
in the past love has brought hurt, and yet its coming again, against the mind's best defenses. however, H. usually stands for heroin on its own, which gives a second level of interpretation to the lyrics.
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Old 07-27-2007, 01:09 PM   #51
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Re: H. stands for.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Holy Gift View Post
i would like to disect the opening lines with u as a whole, instead of breaking them up.
wuts coming thru is alive
wuts holding up is a mirror
but wuts singing songs is a snake
and hes looking to turn my piss to wine
theyre both totally void of hate
but killing me just the same
the snake behind me hisses what my damage could have been
my blood before makes me open up my heart again
and i feel this coming over like a storm again, considerately

mk, now, wuts coming thru is alive - his son.
wuts holding up is a mirror - looking at his son is like looking in the mirror.
wuts singing songs is a snake, looking to turn his piss to wine - his negativity has appeared on his shoulder again, trying to get him to do his usual habit, shut in all feelings.
they are both totally void of hate, but killing him just the same - both his son (the positive influence) and the snake (the negative influence) have an agenda, but they are killing him equally, i.e. they both weigh on him equally, not 1 without the other.
the snake behind him hisses what his damage could have been - the snake is reminding him of all the bad things that have happend
his blood before him makes him open up his heart again - this is the line that ties it all together, by his blood, he means his bloodline, his son, the birth of his son has caused him to open up his heart again and forget his trust issues.
and he feels it coming over like a storm again, considerately - the feelings come rushing over him, considerately.

there u go, i think u were all trying to interpret it in too little of chunks, u need to look at the verse as a whole, instead of just deciphering 1 aspect of it.
Isn't basically the EXACT same thing I already said?
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Old 07-28-2007, 07:27 PM   #52
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Re: H. stands for.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by paraflux View Post
Maynard has also stated that certain songs were about other ridiculous things. Stop trying to think we know everything coming from his mouth, because we dont. What matters, what has always mattered, is what it means to us.
Agreed, however it feels as though you are prefacing that statement with negativity which will only turn people away. Psychology is a delicate understanding, and if you can understand where the person was when this beautiful metaphor was manifested, it furthers the unfolding process of the meaning.
I will end with this, I do not search for the originators experiences, I search for my own.
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Old 07-29-2007, 01:04 AM   #53
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Re: H. stands for.......

inner, if that is basically what you said, then i was simply reiterating it for effect, and throwing in some other stuff to really drive the point home. happy? D:
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Old 07-29-2007, 03:41 PM   #54
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Re: H. stands for.......

jesus h. christ


there you go
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Old 07-31-2007, 10:17 AM   #55
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Re: H. stands for.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Holy Gift View Post
inner, if that is basically what you said, then i was simply reiterating it for effect, and throwing in some other stuff to really drive the point home. happy? D:
Copycat! =-P
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Old 08-01-2007, 05:09 PM   #56
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Re: H. stands for.......

Bill Hicks. The entire album is sort of a dedication to him. Eulogy is about him too.
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Old 08-01-2007, 06:19 PM   #57
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Re: H. stands for.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goat Boy View Post
Bill Hicks. The entire album is sort of a dedication to him. Eulogy is about him too.
I don't know about all of it, but I do see many tributes to him in the album.
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Old 08-21-2007, 08:28 AM   #58
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Re: H. stands for.......

H.

Has anyone ever read the book Ceremonial Magic & the Power of Evocation by Joseph C. Lisiewski? His website is : 8thmatrixpress.com. In his book (Chapter 3 or 4) he covers 8 Axioms required by the operator to achieve full physical manifestation of the spirit envolved. In this case the operator works from the grimoire The Heptameron (H) which evokes the 7 aerial spirits of the days of the week. If you read this Chapter on the 8 Axioms then you will hear Maynard's lyrics come to life in his dicussion on the process and results from said evocation to physical manifestation of the spirit. I recommend this book and his others to anyone interested in the study of the Art and Science. I'm interested to hear from others who have read this book or has an idea to what I'm referring to here. Maynard?

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Old 08-21-2007, 08:43 AM   #59
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Re: H. stands for.......

H.

Has anyone ever read the book Ceremonial Magic & the Power of Evocation by Joseph C. Lisiewski? His website is : 8thmatrixpress.com. In his book (Chapter 3 or 4) he covers 8 Axioms required by the operator to achieve full physical manifestation of the spirit envolved. In this case the operator works from the grimoire The Heptameron (H) which evokes the 7 aerial spirits of the days of the week. If you read this Chapter on the 8 Axioms then you will hear Maynard's lyrics come to life in his dicussion on the process and results from said evocation to physical manifestation of the spirit. I recommend this book and his others to anyone interested in the study of the Art and Science. I'm interested to hear from others who have read this book or has an idea to what I'm referring to here. Maynard?

Last edited by himog; 08-21-2007 at 10:13 AM..
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Old 08-21-2007, 11:09 AM   #60
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Re: H. stands for.......

H stands for heroin.
Everyone needs a hero.
By naming his son Devo H., Jimmy created a self-fulfilling prophecy...

his son saved him from himself.
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Old 08-23-2007, 11:38 AM   #61
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Re: H. stands for.......

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Originally Posted by blood_wh0re View Post
H stands for heroin.
Everyone needs a hero.
By naming his son Devo H., Jimmy created a self-fulfilling prophecy...

his son saved him from himself.
His son's name is Devo H. because he took his father's first name (Herbert) as his middle name. That's quite common actually. His son's name is Devo Herbert Keenan, can't believe you all can't figure that one out. H is quite likely a combination of H. standing for his son's middle name as well as the play on half full/half empty. It could possibly even represent the effect Heroin has one a person or in other words metaphorically describing how he is so drawn and addicted to his love for his son that he knew he had to make a change as an individual to be the father he knew he wanted to be for his son. The song to me is a psychological description of Maynard going the the changes one goes through when they have a child. I've gone into more depth elsewhere in here.

'Nuff said
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Old 08-23-2007, 12:00 PM   #62
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Re: H. stands for.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inner_Eulogy View Post
His son's name is Devo H. because he took his father's first name (Herbert) as his middle name. That's quite common actually. His son's name is Devo Herbert Keenan, can't believe you all can't figure that one out. H is quite likely a combination of H. standing for his son's middle name as well as the play on half full/half empty. It could possibly even represent the effect Heroin has one a person or in other words metaphorically describing how he is so drawn and addicted to his love for his son that he knew he had to make a change as an individual to be the father he knew he wanted to be for his son. The song to me is a psychological description of Maynard going the the changes one goes through when they have a child. I've gone into more depth elsewhere in here.

'Nuff said
wait a second, you seem pretty knowledgeable , so don't get offended, it could simply be that you worded something a little tricky. you said devo took his father's first name...herbert, but that's not maynards first name his first name is james not herbert. his original whole name being james herbert keenan, maybe you meant first as in original, not litterally. ok, that being said, devo's middle name is just h. nothing more, just h., but once again don't get offended, i swear you can't say anything or express opinions around here without people getting all pissed.
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Old 08-23-2007, 12:03 PM   #63
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Re: H. stands for.......

Nah, it's just that we're tired of people coming in and telling us what it's supposed to mean to us, instead of proposing an idea. Two completely different things.
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Old 10-05-2013, 09:48 PM   #64
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Re: H. stands for.......

In my opinion its not important what the song means to Maynard, what's important is what the song means to me. Not to sound like fortune cookie wisdom or anything but I believe this. Even if I discovered what the true meaning was it probably still wouldn't change my perception. He didn't write the song for ME he wrote it for himself, and i dont listen to it for him, I listen to it for me
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Old 10-05-2013, 09:50 PM   #65
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Re: H. stands for.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goat Boy View Post
Bill Hicks. The entire album is sort of a dedication to him. Eulogy is about him too.
I thought Eulogy was about JFK??
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Old 03-02-2014, 05:19 PM   #66
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Re: H. stands for.......

i used to think it was only about his son, but now i honestly think H. is also about heroin.. H is the street name for heroin, like E is the street name for ecstasy.. i dont see how this interpretation is complete rubbish. in most addiction therapy sessions, they make you write a good-bye letter to the drug you were addicted to. hence, H.. the lyrics can easily be interpreted as an addiction.

"What's coming through is alive.
What's holding up is a mirror.
But what's singing songs is a snake
Looking to turn this piss to wine."

his son is "coming through". its a reflection of himself - mirror. but heroin/temptation is tempting him to turn the negative (piss) into a positive (wine) (or so he believes)..

"They're both totally void of hate,
But killing me just the same."

his son is killing his past self. heroin is killing him in the obvious way.

"Venomous voice, tempts me,
Drains me, bleeds me,
Leaves me cracked and empty.
Drags me down like some sweet gravity."

i think that this excerpt is pretty self-explanatory.

"The snake behind me hisses
What my damage could have been.
My blood before me begs me
Open up my heart again."

the numbing temptation explains the pain that he could have felt. his blood (birth of his son) begs him to open his heart again - consider new options, and become vulnerable again.

" And I feel this coming over like a storm again.

I am too connected to you to
Slip away, to fade away.
Days away I still feel you
Touching me, changing me,
And considerately killing me."

how addiction creeps up on you, and addicts are never 'healed' - regression is always a possibility. considerately killing me - thats pretty obvious

"Without the skin,
Beneath the storm,
Under these tears
The walls came down."

without his addiction, he has to deal with the cold hard reality of pain as an everyday occurrence. the walls come down - the limits of true life come back - his head is out of the clouds now.

"And the snake is drowned and
As I look in his eyes,
My fear begins to fade
Recalling all of those times.

I could have cried then.
I should have cried then."

hes successfully 'killed' his addiction and realizes he should have just dealt with the pain head on in the past instead of running away

"And as the walls come down and
As I look in your eyes
My fear begins to fade
Recalling all of the times
I have died
and will die.
It's all right.
I don't mind."

as he looks at his son and his new limits are put up, he realizes how petty he used to be.

in the end though, it doesnt matter what maynard meant by this song. all that matters is your interpretation.

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Old 09-02-2015, 07:34 AM   #67
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Re: H. stands for.......

I believe this song is called H. as in Jesus H. (holy) Christ. Bear with me. In the song is mentioned the serpent/snake (Satan) which is the most base of creatures as it slithers as low as you can go sucking on the dust of all the rest of creation. Also, the serpent is the creature responsible for tempting Adam and Eve and causes the fall of mankind, much like the serpent is doing today. The other voice in the song that is "considerately killing me" (the small ego me) is the voice of God/Christ which will pull him upward toward his more divine nature if he just follows his will and rises above and crucifies the serpent's voice. I think Maynard's lyrics are a lot more 'Christian' than I've ever realized before. Not the bible thumping Christian that only shows up on Sunday and gives money, but the true Christian following God's true divine will. So many layers to their music, however, but this is where I'm at with it currently.
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Old 11-22-2016, 11:18 PM   #68
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Re: H. stands for.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpoling13 View Post
Do a search on lachrymology and you won't find anything that is not related to the band. I think it's all a big joke.
This man has confirmed for us what we already knew PRAISE SCIENCE! "Lachrymology" is clearly a crock of shit, one of the band's more subversive jokes it would seem, considering how many people seem to believe it's real! Think about it, most of their songs have aggressive themes, at the same time, they love to fuck with the media, and with their fans. I think if anything "lachrymology" is a warning against following "religious" psychology trends. Seriously, the entire concept is neither enlightening nor well developed. Anger/sadness is cleansing, yeah we know!
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Old 11-22-2016, 11:20 PM   #69
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Re: H. stands for.......

No seriously why is the "heroin theory" rubbish? Care to elaborate?
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Old 11-23-2016, 08:05 PM   #70
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Re: H. stands for.......

lachrymology is really real
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Old 11-26-2016, 01:48 PM   #71
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Re: H. stands for.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donttakeitsoserious View Post
No seriously why is the "heroin theory" rubbish? Care to elaborate?
can you elaborate on the validity of the heroin theory? not being a dick, im curious.
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Old 09-10-2019, 07:50 PM   #72
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Re: H. stands for.......

I think we can take some of Keenan’s own words about the song.

“So, any of you ever watched those Warner Bros. cartoons? Sometimes there's that one where that guy is having a tough time trying to make a decision. He's got an angel on one shoulder and the devil on the other. Seems pretty obvious, right? Usually it's the angel who is kind of the one trying to give him the good advice while the devil is trying to get him to do what's bad for him. It's not always that simple though. Most times they're not really angels or devils. They're just friends giving you advice, looking out for your best interest but not really understanding what's going to be best for you. So it kind of comes down to you. You have to make the decision yourself... This song is called H.”

- Maynard James Keenan, 1996.

My belief is that the fact that the song’s title could be something like ““Hx” or “Hy”” and subsequently subject to debate leads me to think there is no one right answer. However, given Keenan’s own words about the song, as well as the lyrics, we can reach a bit of a conclusion.

The serpent brings to mind imagery of devilish things for me, due to the serpent that tempted Adam and Eve. However, the serpent is metaphoric, as the song says that it and the mirror are devoid of hate. The snake does tempt him, as he says with “venomous voice tempts me,” and that temptation is likely sinful.

The mirror in question is probably the singer himself, not a reflection. The singer mentions that the snake is drowned later on, likely having overcome its temptation.

As the song is about overcoming temptation to do evil, and the title could ultimately be anything - pure, evil, neutral, joking - I believe that the proper title is “Heaven or Hell”.

Last edited by AbsentCoder; 09-10-2019 at 07:51 PM.. Reason: formatting
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Old 09-11-2019, 07:30 AM   #73
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Re: H. stands for.......

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Old 10-30-2019, 09:39 AM   #74
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Re: H. stands for.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogart View Post
I'm pretty sure it is about his son whose name is Devo H. I believe.
yea, one of the meanings is definitely about his son, but like every tool song (whether they let on or not) there are layered meanings within every song.
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