Alright, first of all, I ignore almost everything of this religion. I have never read the Alcoran. I have never actualy done any research on this subject.

However, I had a conversation with one of my teachers in University about the myth of Adam in the holy scriptures. Since the teacher was from an islamic tradition and me from a christian tradition, we kinda compared Adam in both cultures.

What's interesting is this, and I learned that from my conversation (from Wikipedia): "When God announces his intention of creating Adam, some of the angels express dismay, asking why he would create a being that would do evil."

And then, taken from Qu'ran 2:30: "And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a khalif, they said: What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness? He said: Surely I know what you do not know."

Basically, in the islamic tradition, there actualy are those angels on the sideline, all confused. And they fear that Father gave these humans freewill to destroy themselves. I don't recall any angels telling God he might have screwed up creating humans in the christian tradition. In fact, the genesis seems to me like it has no mention of angels whatsoever.

I'm not saying Maynard has converted to islam. I'm just saying that maybe he was inspired by this Adam myth from the Alcoran to set the song.

This song definetly has a mythologic feel to it and I feel it's en enriching experience to track down those myths.

I hope some people more familiar with islamic tradition can help me out or correct me if I'm wrong.

Hmmm...nice line of thought...

Going further into the discussion.

The Koran speaks of Angels (beings made of light) as having NO free will. Their sole purpose is to worship Allah and do His bidding. They are perfect beings and can do no wrong.
Then there are beings called Jinns (beings made of light) which have free will but the one closest to Allah fell out of favor when he refused to bow before Adam even when commanded by Allah and became the infamous Devil, Shaitan, Lucifer etc.

Brilliant well done Pierre youve really hit the nail on the head there.

Very good take on the lyrics.

I always took it as if you were an angel sitting "on the sidelines" viewing humans and their day-to-day activities, things might get a little confusing.

Being an angel and being completely sin-free, it would be hard to understand human's lack of compassion for each other. You would most likely view them as inferior to you, much like humans feel primates are inferior to them. Saying that, I am not a proponent of the evolution aspect of this song.

Are we as a race so pathetic that with all the blessings that Father has imparted us with we choose to spit in His face and kill and maim in the name of money, land, and greed?

My thoughts on Maynard's views, without putting words in his mouth, is that he actually does believe in a Higher power (God), but disagrees with the practices of the church of "God" due to their selfish ways. I have been bothered by these same things, so I guess I relate to these thoughts even if they aren't accurate.

Regardless, I enjoyed your take on the lyrics and I hope you enjoy mine too.

I would have to agree with oleander13,
This song is a narrative and taken from the angels veiw. This song isn't telling anyone to start believing in any one religion but to open our minds to other thoughts and veiws and become more than mere monkeys by bettering ourselves and each other in the greater good.

I guess ONE of the points of this (brilliant) song is that it is useful to get a more distant perspective of our race/s. It is easy to judge ourselves from a gentle distance (eg 'I did a good thing today') but if we are forced to look at ourselves from further away (in time and distance) then we might have to face the reality of our brutality. It is not a pretty picture.

Over time (history) and space (geographically) we are hopeless - monkeys killing monkeys. It makes me ashamed. We have had so many opportunities to correct ourselves but we seem to fail at every chance. And I wonder at my own part in it - all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

Even when we have the chance to do good things we seem to blow it "Where there's one you're bound to divide it - Right in two".

Sorry don't mean to be so negative - it is Friday night and the Socceroos have made it to round two! BUT it is a blues album!

^^^ Yeah youve suddenly got good at footie. Strange

Good thread. Combining this line of thought with Jung's thoughts on dualism, one can guess what God knew and the angels didn't know.


Evil and good are opposites that do not exist without each other. If you follow my line of thought, God created evil humans for good to truly exist.

Yeah - I know - sorry about that!!! NOT!!!!!

Actually we are all a bit surprised down here as well! We didn't really really think we would get this far - but, man, watch us milk it as far as it will go!! Sport is a RELIGION in this country. And its not like we have had an easy run - the refs have all been against us.

We expect to see you guys in the final!!!

I think this further goes to show that most religions/philosophies are really sayting the same thing, just in the way that their culture is familiar with.

Remember, one not need convert to A religion to be very well read in its scriptures and knowledgeble of its practices in general. ;)

i really agree with your ideas here toward islamic traditions; this song is definitely inspired from what is happening in the world today

i think there is a lot of sarcasm and meaning in this song

i dont think maynard himself believes that humans have free will
nor do i think maynard believes that humans evolved; i think the reason for the lyrics is cuz we act like monkeys

my ideas

I totally agree with you on this

I'm not sure god created evil humans...But i do think that the modes of meterial nature can condition you to become evil...just as they can make you good...We are all as souls equal but given a certain body, in a certain place, time, etc...We can surely become good or evil.

Satan was first an angel... perhaps we were his reason for rebellion against GOD, and since we brought about him being cast out, his disgust with us is his reason for attack through sin... proclaiming our unworthiness of existence to the LORD and therefore reaffirming his convictions to the LORD... being so stuck in his ways as he (Satan) is. He was present in Genesis as the serpent... whether one wants to take the story literally or not doesn't take away what it's trying to convey. GOD being, of course, GOD... knows everything and though what appears to be evil will ultimately end in a greater good... giving greater glory to His holy name. The problem with what you said about the angels in the Islamic faith in relation to Christianity is that angels were also given free will. GOD doesn't make slaves.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church has this to say about the "fall of angels"

391: Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy. Scripture and the Church's Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called "Satan" or the "devil." The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: "The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing."

392: Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels. This "fall" consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocable rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter's words to our first parents: "You will be like God." The devil "has sinned from the beginning"; he is "a liar and the father of lies."

393: "It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels' sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death."

395: The power of Satan is nonetheless, not infinite. He is only a creature, powerful from the fact that he is pure spirit, but still a creature. He cannot prevent the building up of God's reign. Although Satan may act in the world out of hatred for God and his kingdom in Christ Jesus, and although his action may cause grave injuries--of a spiritual nature and, indirectly, even of a physical nature--to each man and to society, the action is permitted by divine providence which with strength and gentleness guides human and cosmic history. It is a great mystery that providence should permit diabolical activity, but "we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him."

Can anyone give me some good sites on Carl Jung?

well... if u want to see angelic dissatisfaction with the human race, watch the Prophecy... im sure some of u have.
Walken's tone of 'monkey' is so much more agressive than Maynard's

and as for the cathecism of the catholic church, meh, i think they just wanted to put the blame on the 'fallen angels' and 'devils' for our apparently evil deeds... in my opinion, humans love to point the finger

They're not putting the blame on fallen angels. They (fallen angels) can't force us to do anything... that's why we have FREE will. Christians won't be able to stand before GOD in judgement and say: "The Devil made me do it."

Although it says: "Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy." I think "makes" might have been an improper term to use for the sense of clarity. It doesn't mean that the Devil forced Adam and Eve to comply, merely the option of disobedience was presented. Through choice it was chosen. You raise a good point though... indeed humans do love to point the finger.

Good and evil are very subjective terms, just as is love. The disposition of good and evil are based strictly on the vantage point of those whom are concerned. For a very interesting take on this, try "The Lucifer Principle," by Howard Bloom.

"If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. and who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?" Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

There is a quote in Genesis that seems out of place, and has been debated on both sides as to its meanings; however, it is thought to reference a race born of half angels (Sons of God) and half men. This and other stories have been found in everything from the Nag Hammadi library to the Apocrypha, including The Book of Adam and Eve, which goes into greater detail and supposedly justifies the actions of Eve based on the ways (not just a whisper in the ear) by which she was duped by the serpent. These have been carried on in the Christian traditions of the African Horn, especially in Ethiopia; books such as Jubilees and Epoch remained ingrained in the traditions. These stories were left out of "official" texts because they were thought to be a distraction from the miraculous works of God and made confusion of the timeline that is laid out for our world as illustrated by Genesis.

" There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. " (Gen. 6:4)

There are actually some 100,000 different discrepencies within the different versions of the Bible (Latin Vulgate, Greek Orthodox or Septuagint, and of course the King James) known to have come out of the 1st and 2nd centuries that have been studied by textual critics... lots of good information in "Misquoting Jesus"

Let's say I think you're an idiot so I decide to kill you because... well.. I think it might be "good" to remove those who function in a subjective mode. That's good right? Let's say again... you have something I want, which I don't really need, like say a Plasma screen TV, so I kill you to acquire it. That's not evil. It's good right? Because I said so, right? You see where "good" and "evil" being subjective terms is a flawed and primitive idea? We can disagree that this music is either good or bad, that's all relative to personal taste... this doesn't work with morality, regardless what you might think or might have read. Your boy Bloom is misguided. He says "Christians by the millions would take upon themselves the privilege of killing, torturing and raping those who weren't members of their triumphant creed." Really? Sounds like he's got a bone to pick with Christianity.

There is an incredible difference between what is right vs. wrong, compared to what is good vs. evil. Everyone for the most part can agree on what is right, and what is wrong based on the moral outcome of the situation, whether someone dies or is subjected to disgraceful or painful humiliation. But was is good and what is evil is generally a more slippery slope. I imagine it would be hard to find a person in America that would not agree that what happened on 9/11 is the result of a mindset that is evil... but what do we make of years of bombing in middle-eastern countries, where countless thousands of innocent people have been killed. Is this evil, or is this justified, and good, possibly even righteous?

It depends on which point of view you choose to take; a humanist would argue that the indigenous civilians of countries plauged by war and poverty are innocent victims, just as the unfortunate occupants of the World Trade Center. But who you consider good vs. evil is ultimately biased depending on a predisposed point of view. People are much more inclined to follow a cause they find just, and good than anything else, regardless of how wrong, or misinformed they may be. I do appreciate the passion of your responses, though. They seem to have much more though applied than most of these postings.

Thanks for your response as well as your compliment. I'm glad to see you didn't take my response in a negative way. I do get carried away some times so feel free to smack me when I need it.

You raise an interesting point regarding indigenous peoples. I hadn't really thought much about that at all. Indeed I'll have to think some more about that. Thanks for giving me something to think about.

I'm just here for the insight, and possibly to pick some up as well...

Same here. Be assured that you have lent me some insight as well. Though I approach all discussions here from a Catholic perspective, inevitable due to my conversion of heart, mind, and action... I hope that I can lend some as well, if some are able to look past the initial offense (should any be present) to their path.

I think anyone with a brain has a bone to pick with christianity.

No offense... to all you christians out there. i just think you dont look into what you believe in enough to see whats going on. The bible you read today...Is barely what Christ taught. Everything has been changed simply to say that jesus wasnt human and was devine..like a god...but my friends he was human. Just like you and me...But he was a great teacher of love and compassion and for that we give praise.

You are right... he is fully human. He is also fully divine. He is GOD. He said so Himself, the apostles knew it, and the many, many, people who were martyred in His Holy name knew He was/is GOD. There is no arguing he "was a great teacher of love and compassion", this goes without saying. Not only was He a "great teacher of love and compassion" but He was/is also the Saviour written about in the Old Testament. His life and teachings (especially baptism) were prefigured in the Old Testament. There is no disputing He was/is GOD, and there is no disputing He was/is Human. We will never find the body of Christ because He ascended Body & Soul into Heaven. When we see Him, His wounds will still be present in His glorified body.

If you want scripture verses, I can type them out until my fingers are numb. Research the early Church Fathers and their teachings. Documents that date back to shortly after the Ascension of our Lord and Saviour Jesus. There is one of the early Church Fathers who's name eludes me at the moment, who was in fact a disciple of St. Paul's disciple. St. Paul wrote many of the letters and epistles of the New Testament.

"Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that the antichrist was coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. Thus we know this is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number. But you have the anointing that comes from the holy one, and you all have knowledge. I write to you not because you do not know the truth but because you do, and because every lie is alien to the truth. Who is the liar? Whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Whoever denies the Father and the Son, this is the antichrist. No one who denies the Son has the Father, but whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well. Let what you heard from the beginning remain in you. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, then you will remain in the Son and in the Father." -1 John 2:18-24

"I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingly power: proclaim the word; be persistent whether it is convenient or inconvenient; convince, reprimand, encourage through all patience and teaching. For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths." -2 Timothy 4:1-4

"But," said Moses to God, "when I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' if they ask me, 'What is his name?' what am I to tell them?" God replied, "I am who am." Then he added, "This is what you shall tell the Israelites: I AM sent me to you." -Exodus 3:13-14

Jesus spoke to them again, saying, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." So the Pharisees said to him, "You testify on your own behalf, so your testimony cannot be verified." Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I do testify on my own behalf, my testimony can be verified, because I know where I came from and where I am going. But you do not know where I come from or where I am going. You judge by appearances, but I do not judge anyone. And even if I should judge, my judgment is valid, because I am not alone, but it is I and the Father who sent me. Even in your law it is written that the testimony of two men can be verified. I testify on my behalf and so does the Father who sent me." So they said to him, "Where is your father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also." He spoke these words while teaching in the treasury in the temple area. But no one arrested him, because his hour had not yet come. He said to them again, "I am going away and you will look for me, but you will die in your sin. Where I am going you cannot come." So the Jews said, "He is not going to kill himself, is he, because he said, 'Where I am going you cannot come'?" He said to them, "You belong to what is below, I belong to what is above. You belong to this world, but I do not belong to this world. That is why I told you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins." So they said to him, "Who are you?" Jesus said to them, "What I told you from the beginning. I have much to say about you in condemnation. But the one who sent me is true, and what I heard from him I tell the world." They did not realize that he was speaking to them of the Father. So Jesus said (to them), "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will realize that I AM, and that I do nothing on my own, but I say only what the Father taught me. The one who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, because I always do what is pleasing to him." Because he spoke this way, many came to believe in him. Jesus then said to those Jews who believed in him, "If you remain in my word, you will truly be my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." They answered him, "We are descendants of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How can you say, 'You will become free'?" Jesus answered them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave of sin. A slave does not remain in a household forever, but a son always remains. So if a son frees you, then you will truly be free. I know that you are descendants of Abraham. But you are trying to kill me, because my word has no room among you. I tell you what I have seen in the Father's presence; then do what you have heard from the Father." They answered and said to him, "Our father is Abraham." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would be doing the works of Abraham. But now you are trying to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God; Abraham did not do this. You are doing the works of your father!" (So) they said to him, "We are not illegitimate. We have one Father, God." Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and am here; I did not come on my own, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot bear to hear my word. You belong to your father the devil and you willingly carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he speaks in character, because he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I speak the truth, you do not believe me. Can any of you charge me with sin? If I am telling the truth, why do you not believe me? Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not listen, because you do not belong to God." The Jews answered and said to him, "Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and are possessed?" Jesus answered, "I am not possessed; I honor my Father, but you dishonor me. I do not seek my own glory; there is one who seeks it and he is the one who judges. Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever keeps my word will never see death." (So) the Jews said to him, "Now we are sure that you are possessed. Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, 'Whoever keeps my word will never taste death.' Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? Or the prophets, who died? Who do you make yourself out to be?" Jesus answered, "If I glorify myself, my glory is worth nothing; but it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, 'He is our God.' You do not know him, but I know him. And if I should say that I do not know him, I would be like you a liar. But I do know him and I keep his word. Abraham your father rejoiced to see my day; he saw it and was glad. So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old and you have seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM." So they picked up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid and went out of the temple area. -John 8:12-59

Im sorry, what? Son of god my friend...son...not god. thank you very much.

Oh and If apperently there´s a place in india which actually holds the body of christ...or his samadhi...Bible doesnt have everything my friend.

It's clear I can't change your opinion on what truth is. I've given you sufficient Bible verses which you choose not to see what it is really saying. The LORD is a Triune GOD: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Bible indeed doesn't have everything, there is also sacred tradition and anything other than these two are not necessary for my salvation. We will just have to agree to disagree. God bless you... Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

whoa

You ever Read the Bhagavad gita?

I think good and evil is two sides of same coin. Meaning that God and Satan are one metaphor.

whoa

So you're saying that God and Satan, are essentially the same thing? Interesting thought. Elaborate please.

alright here it goes...

I find it quite obvious that something (could be anything) can't exist, if there weren't any counterparts, because how would we define it. And for the God and Satan being the same thing: First of all I don't have any facts from books and such, and it is just a theory I have been ponding on for some time. It came from thinking about balance. My definition of God is not an old man in the skies. I don't believe in Genesis too. So what I think God is, is pure raw energi before it is manifested into something. Pure energi is neutral and wether it is negative (Satan) or good (God) depends on a lot of things. Mostly us humans I suppose.

I feel like I must apologize in advance because of this explanation - it is confusing isn't it?

By the way, before I forget: "As above so below" could back up my theory. Humans posess both good and evil attributes so why not "up there"? One different being God and Satan as one thing. Even Gods can have a bad day I suppose.

... oh no I've gone cross-eyed again!

wow this is an amazingly great thread. What happened to Pierre-Paul what are his thoughts on all this?
i have a hard time seeing how the son or creation of something can actually BE that something that created it. how does that make sense? i mean thats even worse than the chicken or the egg thing.
i agree with 'the tower that' all things really need to have checks and balances in order to be defined as anything at all. everything kind of needs the opposite reaction in order for that other thing to even have a reason to exist in the first place right? so if all was well to begin with and there was no satan whats the purpose of god? or if god was perfect and everything was hunky dory then how did satan come about? or maybe the better question is why did he allow satan to come into existence? did he just need something to do?

It just came to my mind, that how crazy the human race actually is. We spend so much time speculating about stuff we will never know the truth about. But hey isn't that the fun part too?