The scarlet letter by William Hawthorne (not sure if that's the right guy), but Either way it's also a movie. The scarlet letter is worn by someone who has broken the law.
Qabalah-- Not sure about it having to do with this song.
Saturn-- Saturn causes you to learn a lesson. Read the quote from Maynard above.
1=10. Maynard's a math guy from what I've heard. Mathemeticians know that you do not start counting with 1, you start with 0. 1 is the young form, 1-0 the form (1) looking back at itself (0). So, again, see the quote. Wow, there's some awesome ideas being thrown around here! Very interesting stuff about the binary code!
__________________ Deepthroat:Why is it that those of you who believe so strongly in the existance of extraterrestrials are not disuaded by all the evidence to the contrary?
Mulder: Becuase all the evidence to the contrary is not entirely disuasive.
i have always pondered about this scarlet leterman aswell and could never figure out a logical meaning for it
"Scarlet letterman" refers to Nathaniel Hawthorne's book "The Scarlet Letter", where an adulterous woman has to wear scarlet "A" to display her sin. SO—a scarlet letterman would be a person who would give you the letter, and thus someone you might hold a grudge against.
ALRIGHTY
I was reading through my big astrology book and discovered something about the houses. I'm not sure if someone touched this, but the 10th house is attributed to us goats, Capricorns, which are ruled by SATURN. The cusp of the first house is considered "Ascendant" as it is 1)the first degree, 2)'It is therefore of the greatest importance, becuase when delineating a chart, every trait of character deduced from any other part of the chart, must be considered in relation to the tpe of person evincing it, as shown by the Ascending sign'. The tenth house says this: This house often does NOT describe the career but rather the way in which the person tackles his or her outward expressions. It is the house of "Career and Father". The first house: His type and to a great extent his physical characteristics, may be inferred from the planets in the first house and the sign on its cusp.
One deals with inner expression and the other, outer expression. You start at the first house, then build up to the tenth house. You can remain in a specific area or be "spit out" and move freely with them all. Just another idea.
"Saturn comes back around. Lifts you up like a child or
Drags you down like a stone to
Consume you till you choose to let this go.
Choose to let this go."
--Oh, sorry, it's NATHANIEL Hawthorne. I put down William.
__________________ Deepthroat:Why is it that those of you who believe so strongly in the existance of extraterrestrials are not disuaded by all the evidence to the contrary?
Mulder: Becuase all the evidence to the contrary is not entirely disuasive.
ok i know nothing about astrology,
saturn was the titan, Chronos in greek mythology, he ate his children because it was fortold that one of his children would overthrow him and the titans. his son Zeus was hidden by his mother and came back to kill his father free his brothers and children, and overthrow the titans.
Saturn comes back around... lifts you up like a child
the one the ten ... the Alpha and omega?
could the grudge be one with god ?
i dont know.
but i do know something about the planet Saturn coming round something like twice a life time. and usually on the 2nd time isomething fancy happens.
saturn was the titan, Chronos in greek mythology, he ate his children because it was fortold that one of his children would overthrow him and the titans. his son Zeus was hidden by his mother and came back to kill his father free his brothers and children, and overthrow the titans.
Saturn comes back around... lifts you up like a child
I never thought of that! Whoa! You may be on to something there. So Saturn, as a reference to Cronos, lifts you up to eat you...so Saturn is the grudge maybe?
"Scarlet letterman" refers to Nathaniel Hawthorne's book "The Scarlet Letter", where an adulterous woman has to wear scarlet "A" to display her sin. SO—a scarlet letterman would be a person who would give you the letter, and thus someone you might hold a grudge against.
hey, just a quick thought on the subject:
isn't the line CHOOSE one or ten? with all the talk about rearranging the track listings, can't you take it literally also? as in starting with track 10 - disposition - which by definition is:
"1 : the act or the power of disposing or the state of being disposed : as a : ADMINISTRATION, CONTROL b : final arrangement : SETTLEMENT <the disposition of the case> c (1) : transfer to the care or possession of another (2) : the power of such transferal d : orderly arrangement
2 a : prevailing tendency, mood, or inclination b : temperamental makeup c : the tendency of something to act in a certain manner under given circumstances"
notice definition 1b, 1d and 2c especially
and seeing as how disposition>reflection>triad (which would now appears as track 3, coincidence?) are linked musically, they should stay together, so the new beginning would be:
10 or (1+0= 1)
11 or (1+1=2)
12 or (1+2=3)
13 or (1+3=4)
unfortunately i can't figure out what comes next, the grudge works well next, but so would schism... anyway this would relate to the lyric "hang on or be humbled again" as well as lateral thinking, arranging, recommunication etc.etc.etc.
anyway a different way of looking at this...thoughts?
Regarding "Scarlet lettermen," remember that the scarlet letter "A" of Hawthorne's book was for Adultery. I can't say for sure that's how it was intended, but that's how it seems to me. Adultery is certainly something people hold strong grudges over. I know I do.
When I came back to this album (I was bored by it at first and put it aside for a long time), The Grudge was the first song to really "grab" me because it spoke so clearly to my own Grudge. In reading the lines about Saturn, I turned to my own horoscope and found a LOT of correlations between the position of Saturn in my chart and my own issues surrounding my Grudge. Of particular note to me, though, was that Saturn is in the 12th house in my chart. I know this isn't exactly in line with the One/Ten thing (which to me is just about extremes), but it does seem to be in line with the overall theme:
12th House - Beyond the Personal
This house represents those spheres of life which go beyond the individual personality. The boundaries between the conscious and the unconscious dissolve, as well as the boundaries between human beings. This is the house of dreams and the yearning for unity.
__________________ Sleep is a state of mind, and to know is to be on your way.
i always thought of 'the one, the ten' as aries and capricorn
aries is the first astrological sign, therefore it introduces the beginning of the new zodiacal year. Think of spring, new beginnings... The Alpha
capricorn on the other hand is the 10th astrological sign, it introduces winter, cold and dark times, the end, destruction, The Omega
capricorn is actually ruled by the planet Saturn which is associated with all that is harsh and dark.
'Saturn governs our karmic responsibilities and our capacity to learn about life in every part of life. Saturn rules responsibilities, restrictions and limitations of life, and the lessons you must learn in life. It does not deny or diminish imagination, inspiration, spirituality, and good fortune but it does demand that these things be given structure and meaning.' --> 'Desperate to control all and everything'
'Saturn ascends, comes round again.
Saturn ascends, the one, the ten. Ignorant to the damage done.'
to me these lines in particular relate to the fact the it take Saturn 28/29 years to 'come round again' from our birth, and in the time if one reevaluates his/her life and finds it meaningless or lacking to the 'the damage is done'
'Saturn comes back around to show you everything
Let's you choose what you will not see and then
Drags you down like a stone or lifts you up again...'
'Saturn comes back around. Lifts you up like a child or
Drags you down like a stone
To consume you till you choose to let this go.'
in these parts i see the 'lifts you up' part as refering to the one, the beginning, the alpha, and the 'drags you down' as the 10, the end, the omega.. as i see it, it is when saturn ascends that we realize to either let our grudges go or to cling to them. to start fresh, or to continue on the path of destruction..
just a thought..
__________________ quod non me occidit me corroborat
what base are you working in? numbers are weird, there are numerals, and then there are numbers of things. Our numerals, 0-9 is a base ten system. the shit our computers understand is binary, 0-1. So, if you took 1 and 0, put those together, and you'd still have one.
I don't think this has anything to do with like, 1 being the worst and 10 being the best. Who's to say that he's even talking about numbers of things.
This reminds me a lot of jimmy, where one and one make one. I'm kinda rambling on with no point, but hopefully someone'll think of something from this.
joe
One thing to keep in mind here is that Maynard/Danny are Ceremonial Magicians, Occultist, etc. Everything the band puts out is going to have a mystical connotation. You have an interesting point there Qabbalisticly, yes 1 and 0 together are still one, hence the Tree of Life having the equation 1=10 because Kether is in Malkuth and Malkuth is in Kether. The Tree of Life is a map of the Universe, and the forces, powers, symbols, and beings that make up this plane of reality. I think the grudge has many layers, alchemical, qabbalistic, psychological, symbolic, astrological...because thats how a Magician is trained to think....we are trained to see the world as being layered components of multiple influences that are all interacting/reacting and responding to one another in perfect chaos and harmony at the same time. I feel the first stanza of lines relates to perfecting ones existence in Malkuth ( or the earth sphere ) before moving up the tree in spiritual evolution. It has a lot to do with blame, shame, and guilt..which most humans are running as basic programming in their day to day consciousness and letting it control their experience of this sphere. A major key for perfecting ones experience of Malkuth is to master everything and deny nothing, let go of the known, and embrace the unknown where true knowledge can come and go as one needs in every situation. I feel the bit about Saturn coming back around again, and being ignorant to the damage done has to do with people repeating their Karmic wheel over and over again and not stepping out of their patterns and really growing and changing...remaining lead and anchored into their reality, rather than embracing the ocean of chaos and turning into gold. Anyway thats a tidbit on my feelings...your all right in your views...this is just yet another.
OK how's this for a theory. In light of 10 000 Days, it seems to me that the Grudge is dealing with the same subjects as '10 000 days' and 'judith'. It's about MJK's grudge against God.
Saturn ascends (orbit of saturn is 10,000 days approx)
the one the ten = 11 (age of maynard when his mother was stricken with her paralysis)
I think that the "grudge" is a reference to the animosity that institutions of organized religion hold for science, scientific method, scientific process/progress etc. In the early 17th century, the Catholic Church officially endorsed Ptolemy's model of the universe, which held that the earth was at the center of the universe and that all of creation revolved around the earth. The references to saturn could relate to galileo's observation that the planets had their own satellites, disproving Ptolemy's model, to the great shagrin of the church, which branded Galileo as a heretic. The church was forced to "choose one or ten" in that there could be one center of the universe (i.e. earth in Ptolemy's model) or 10 celestial bodies making up our solar system (the sun and the nine planets). Of course Galileo couldn't see all of the planets at the time, but the point is the same (additionally it was actually the discovery of Jupiter's moons that disproved the Ptolemic model--but minute historical details don't tarnish the song's meaning). Ptolemy's model had been acceptable because it left plenty of room outside of his proposed "shell" of darkness and stars for a heaven and hell. Also, moving the earth out of the center of the universe would lessen the apparent importance of earth in the universe and would not agree well with the Book of Genesis. Ultimately, of course, the church could no longer argue with the obvious truth, and the official model was changed. This is why the church was "humbled." Organized religions tend to stick to dogma, even when common sense is in conflict with that dogma, because being "humbled again" by scientific observation erodes the facade of divinity and perfection that protects the institution's power over its followers. The grudge held by the church is what prevents the true reconciliation of science and religion. This reconcilliation is referred to as "transmut[ing] this leaden grudge into gold." I think that the "scarlet lettermen" that the church is "unable to forgive" are probably the people like galileo who made observations that the church frowned on, but I'm not sure why and would be interested in hearing if anyone has an explanation for that.
the scarlet letterman is arthur dimmsdale, he accuses the female lead (dont remember her name) of adultry and commands her to tell the world who made her pregnant when her husband traveled abroad. she refuses
throughout the book, her child is called the devil child, seen as mysteroius creature more than child.
dimmsdale (name references a fading candle) grows weaker and pale throughout the book. At the end he reveals a letter A he himself etches into his flesh (he is responsible for the child), and dies
please never read that book, skim it in the library, you'll see why
the scarlet letterman is arthur dimmsdale, he accuses the female lead (dont remember her name) of adultry and commands her to tell the world who made her pregnant when her husband traveled abroad. she refuses
throughout the book, her child is called the devil child, seen as mysteroius creature more than child.
dimmsdale (name references a fading candle) grows weaker and pale throughout the book. At the end he reveals a letter A he himself etches into his flesh (he is responsible for the child), and dies
please never read that book, skim it in the library, you'll see why
Thanks for that. I actually made the connection to Hawthorne shortly after writing the post about Ptolemy VS Galileo. It seems so obvious now. However, I would disagree with the idea that "scarlet lettermen" refers to the character Dimmsdale. It doesn't seem to fit well with my interpretation of the rest of the song. I think that "scarlet lettermen" are those people who have been "lettered" by the church, that is, branded as sinners or heretics.
i think it has a lot more to do with the persecution of the self as well. gripping onto an idea and punishing yourself secretly.
this is also a way to demonstrate a breakdown of communication, when communication breaks down, many people punish themselves with cliched lines such as: im so stupid, im an idiot, etc...
the grudge seems to be more about the individual having to choose communication or schism. i think the song is about personal thoughts as opposed to outside forces harming someone
- can anyone clue me in as to what the one/ten is referring to? i get the feeling it is referring to some aspect of astrology but am not familiar with that subject. any thoughts most welcome.
"saturn ascends .. the crown and kingdom"
I think he is refering to the tree of life... Were the first is The crown and the tenth is the kindom and everything is in between ... In the tree of life the symbol "binah"
is the symbol of knowlage and the symbol of saturn..
This can mean that everything is in the knowlage..
He's actually quoting Kabbalistic text that have a decent probablity of being an inspiriation for the lyric. Not sure if you knew that, but it would be easy for me to think he's an idiot if I didn't know exactly what he's talking about.
He's actually quoting Kabbalistic text that have a decent probablity of being an inspiriation for the lyric. Not sure if you knew that, but it would be easy for me to think he's an idiot if I didn't know exactly what he's talking about.
Thanks but I know what he's referencing....I was calling him out just as he did in a different thread against me where he called me an idiot for no reason.
__________________ "WITHOUT A LITTLE EVIL, GOOD WOULD NEVER EXIST"
Finally made it here to make my first post. I am not native in english, hope you can cope with my expression here.
I have thought that the "grudge" refers to the ego.
From that viewpoint here's my opinion of the meaning of "Saturn ascends, choose one or ten. Hang on or be humbled again."
(wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_(mythology) )
"Saturn (Latin: Saturnus) was a major Roman god of agriculture and harvest. In medieval times he was known as the Roman god of agriculture, justice and strength."
As everyone knows our culture is advanced from the early agriculture and therefore the ascending of our cultural, moral and abilities would mean a lift of the collective consciousness.
But each of us has to make the choice between the egoic service to self ("me is the ONE") and service to others where you act as it is collectively the best way regardeless of having to seize some or all of your own good. So "one" in this case means yourself and only yourself, "ten" being self-explanatory more than one and also often refered being the full/perfect/ultimate digit in our 0-10 calculation.
Summing my opinion up:
"Saturn ascends, choose one or ten. Hang on or be humbled again."
Our cultural system evolves. We have to choose between being egoic with individual myselfness and embracing the universal oneness. Hang on with all the struggle of feeling unattached to or get back to the universal consciousness where all the egoic needs of being superior to others are lowered to state of unexistence.
I agree with most everyone's posts.
I think that the ONE the TEN relates to the cyclical nature or flow of things. In numerology, 1 is 1 but 10 becomes 1. Once you reach double digits in numerology you add each individual number therefore going back to the beginning again 10 (1+0=1)
Choose One or Ten. The completion of the cycle. It also relates to the Tower card of the Tarot as well as Saturn (Kronos / Father Time) Remember the old proverb Time will destroy everything. . Will you try hold onto what you have? Or will you embrace it as the completion 10 and begin a new cycle 1. Choose ONE or TEN. Comes round again.
Finally made it here to make my first post. I am not native in english, hope you can cope with my expression here.
I have thought that the "grudge" refers to the ego.
From that viewpoint here's my opinion of the meaning of "Saturn ascends, choose one or ten. Hang on or be humbled again."
(wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_(mythology) )
"Saturn (Latin: Saturnus) was a major Roman god of agriculture and harvest. In medieval times he was known as the Roman god of agriculture, justice and strength."
As everyone knows our culture is advanced from the early agriculture and therefore the ascending of our cultural, moral and abilities would mean a lift of the collective consciousness.
But each of us has to make the choice between the egoic service to self ("me is the ONE") and service to others where you act as it is collectively the best way regardeless of having to seize some or all of your own good. So "one" in this case means yourself and only yourself, "ten" being self-explanatory more than one and also often refered being the full/perfect/ultimate digit in our 0-10 calculation.
Summing my opinion up:
"Saturn ascends, choose one or ten. Hang on or be humbled again."
Our cultural system evolves. We have to choose between being egoic with individual myselfness and embracing the universal oneness. Hang on with all the struggle of feeling unattached to or get back to the universal consciousness where all the egoic needs of being superior to others are lowered to state of unexistence.
As far as the connection to Saturn and Agriculture. It relates to the "Harvesting" of the body/ spirit. The symbol for Saturn is incorporated into to Death card of the marseilles tarot deck in the Crossing of the arms and the scythe.
